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This is an iHeart podcast. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months full price plan. Options available. Taxes and fees extra. Cmintmobile.com hi, I'm Morgan. I have three kids. I have an IQ of 160. I work with the cops. You're a cop? No, but they do sign my paychecks. Kaitlin Olsen returns in High Potential, the number one drama. She was abducted. You knew that already, didn't you? Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one. And one of the best new crime procedurals. You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you? Yeah. High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on who Hulu. What kind of man would let this happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working on a story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. It's only cheating if you get caught. Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in The Family premieres October 15th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. For bundle subscribers, terms apply. For over 50 years, they redefined rock. The spirit lives on. Monday Warrior Mean Me Stride Today's come Saw your mean Try Getty Lee and Alex lson Rush Live 50 Something Tour. Sign up for pre sale access at Ticketmaster. Legends don't stop, they evolve. Rush Kaleidoscope My wife called me and she said, I got this phone call and I said, oh my God, Marge. What did you tell them? How much have you told them? She was telling me was that there were some bones that were found in a wall in a house. I said, that sounds like just such a scam. Investigating a cold case is challenging. Often the crime scene evidence is damaged or contaminated. Witnesses may have died and police reports are sometimes lost. And then there are inexplicable mysteries. In the past, I'd always thought human remains were found pretty soon after a crime, or if it takes a while, that they're found in secluded spots like in the woods off a main road or in a field behind a barn. But what if there are remains sitting right next to you for years? They could be anywhere. At your office, in a friend's backyard, or maybe in your own home. Producer Catherine Fenollosa is here with one of the oldest unidentified human remains cases ever to be solved. This case takes place outside of Chicago, and it's 1978. Okay, so you gotta go back a bit. And there's a couple James and Martha Skinner, and they've rented this house. And it's a cute house. I actually looked it up, and it's a shingled house, two stories with a little picket fence. It's in a little town called Batavia. And even though they're renting this house, they decide to do some renovations. It's a Sunday. They are taking down the baseboard and part of a wall. And Martha starts to notice that things are falling out of the wall and hitting the floor first. She notices a corn cob, which is, like, a little weird, right? Like an ear of corn. Yes, an ear of corn. But the house was built in the 1850s, so it's not totally out of the norm for people to have, like, stuffed things in the walls as insulation. So then five shoes, not pairs of shoes, but just five individual shoes, a couple of old bottles, and then a woman's bonnet, a black bonnet. So picture, like, a cotton hat that you would tie under the chin. So clearly this bonnet is fairly old. And then a jawbone, like a human jawbone. Martha Skinner says, and I went back and read the newspaper article that was written at the time. Martha Skinner says, the second the jawbone hit the ground, I knew it was human. And she freaks out. So they pull a little more of the wall apart, and part of a human skull falls down. So at this point, Martha and James are completely freaked out, and they call the police. Yeah, my immediate thought would be, like, serial killer, you know? So that was on their minds. So they call the police. The police come, and they bring a cadaver dog with them. And the police officers lead the dog around the house, and the dog doesn't stop and show interest in any other spots of the house. Just this one particular area of the wall. And they determine that's it. I just think that if I found human remains in my wall, first of all, I would not be able to sleep that night. Second of all, I would be like, am I in danger now? If I bring these remains to the police, will someone come in here in the middle of the night and try to take other evidence out of the walls. You don't know who knows about the remains, where they're from, what crime was involved, what the motive was. Martha did admit that she was worried that a murder had happened in the house. I mean, obviously a crime was involved. If there are human remains in a wall, There are photos from that Sunday when they take down part of this wall. And you can see Martha down on the ground looking at all of this, you know, the bottles and the shoes that have fallen to the floor. And her first thought was exactly the same as yours, Aelin. I mean, she was like, oh, my God, did a serial killer live here? Like, are we living in the middle of a crime scene? And we had no idea. Oh, my God. And are there other bodies buried in this house? What a nightmare. I would need to get a hotel. I would get out of there. Oh, my goodness. I know. So the police do their investigation. They look through their missing person reports, and it's not leading them anywhere. So they actually reach out to one of the top forensic anthropologists at the time. His name is Dr. Clyde Snow. And Ailin, this guy is a really big deal. He worked on serial killer John Wayne Gacy's case. He examined JFK's remains, and even Tutankhamun, the Egyptian pharaoh from 3,000 years ago. And so Dr. Snow determines that this skull is really old. It probably belonged to a white female. He's thinking someone like 16 to 18 years old who died before 1900. So this skull is at least, say, 94 years old by the time they find it. How many different people have lived there just eating their dinner next to this body in the wall? What a horrifying thought. They list this as a Jane Doe case, and they decide to ship the skull to the local history museum in town, and the case goes cold. So that's 1978. Fast forward to 2021. There is an employee who works at this history museum in Batavia, Illinois, and she's cleaning out an office, and there is a box. And she opens the box, and she is shocked to find parts of a skull in this box. Yeah. So she freaks out yet again, this person, Their remains are just getting moved around to random locations, and we still don't know even who it is or how they died. We have no idea. She calls the police, and the police again look through their records, and they realize that these are the same exact remains that were found in this house. So they take them back, and the case is officially reopened finally. It's actually kind of miraculous that after all that it does get reopened. I know. So this box with the skull lands on the desk of Gabriella Ellison. She's an investigator in the cold case unit of the Kane county coroner's office in Illinois. And Aylin, she's actually the perfect person to look into this case because it really hits home for her. My grandfather was murdered, and basically everybody knew what happened, but nobody investigated. The police knew, everybody knew. And unfortunately, my grandma, she really just kind of had to move away and not know anything as to, you know, having any justice for his case. So for me, it's obviously about the families. And if I can help families get some answers, in a way, I'm maybe giving back to my family in some sort of, you know, way. Oh, my God. And she basically promises herself that even though this case seems unsolvable, we owe it to whoever this person is to give them a name. This can't stay as a Jane Doe. The information that she had to go on was that this skull probably belonged to a young woman, you know, 16 to 18 years old. And this was a person who lived and had a name, had a family, had a life story. Yeah. And they wanted to put these remains to rest and to understand who this person was and how they ended up in the wall of a house. Which is also an incredible mystery in itself. Yeah. Because, you know, someone put them there. To be honest, if I were Gabriela, where would you even start? I mean, there's no one to talk to who was there, who knows what happened. I mean, how could you possibly know what to do? I asked Gabriela that exact question. So she and the coroner at the time, a guy named Rob Russell, they jump right in. They realize they're going to need help since the only evidence they have to work with are these skeletal remains. And with no other clues, it comes down to getting DNA from the skull. Because without it, this goes back to being a cold case. There's nothing like sinking into luxury. At washablesofas.com, you'll find the Annabe sofa, which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this. It's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. 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And one of the best new crime procedurals. You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you? Yeah. High potential. New Tuesdays, 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Saba and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty. Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com what kind of man would let this happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events I'm working on the story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. It's only cheating if you get caught. Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in The Family premieres October 15th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Okay, so the best shot at solving this case rests on getting DNA from the skull. Yes. Gabriela and Robb at the coroner's office reach out to Othram and the lab agrees to take the case. But first aen they need Gabriela to ship them the skull. Hang on. I know we've talked about a number of cases at this point and they've all had to send incredibly valuable evidence to Othram's lab. But I gotta admit, I'm fascinated with what happens behind the scenes. I mean, this can't be like shipping a birthday present to a friend. Or wait, is it? So it's kind of wild. It's both highly orchestrated and shockingly simple at the same time. So I visited the Othram offices a while back and basically every morning a similar scene plays out. I had to detail the type of package that I received, who I got it from and then how to detail the time and day that I got it. That's Raina Ramirez. She's the first person you meet when walking into the Othram offices. She's at her desk bright and early and pretty immediately trucks start rolling in. There's FedEx, UPS, DHL and the post office. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6. And on this day, six cardboard packages are quickly stacked on Raina's desk. It all depends how it was shipped. It could be express priority or just a regular delivery. So those typically get hit in the afternoon. But if it was priority, they'll be here before 7 o' clock in the morning. If they are going to be FedEx Express, they'll be here between 9 to 11 o' clock in the morning. So this is where crime scene evidence lands when it's shipped from state crime labs and police departments. Yeah, and packages hold human remains like this jawbone. But it could also be vials of blood, teeth, scraps of blood stained clothing. Really anything with DNA. The first step is to inspect and make sure that it's not open or any damage at all. Then I take pictures of all sides of the box and angles again making sure that there's no tampering with the evidence. Raina quickly enters the information into a database and the boxes are taken into an evidence room. Do the delivery drivers know what they're delivering? So the more regular ones, they know what they're bringing because they've been seeing us on TV or stuff like that. Like, oh, this package is priority. It needs to go to otram. And typically they don't like to miss my route because of their snacks. Raina's got tons of snacks stashed behind her desk. She's got bottles of Gatorade and cold water, bags of chips and cookies. She wants to make Othram their first delivery stop of the day. She's a smart woman. I mean, these packages are priceless. Really. Yeah. And she says the drivers are really part of this work. They are amazing. There is one particular FedEx guy that he was amazed by our Christmas tree. So every winter Othram puts up a tree in the lobby and instead of ornaments they hang pictures of victims whose cases they've solved. And when he saw the pictures, he's like, it makes me proud that In a tiny part, I'm part of that solution. Oh, wow. So I have to ask, does Reina know what's inside every box that lands on her desk? I don't. On my end, I try to avoid even focusing on who's the sender. I feel like the less I know, the better. I guess subconsciously protect myself, I don't know. But my part, it's concentrating on the tracking number. That's all I need to know. I don't need to know anything else. That's for the scientists that had to do the magic. Good for her. But honestly, I'd be so curious to know what evidence was inside. So back to Gabriela in the Kane County Coroner's office. Yeah. So Othram just told her, hey, ship us the skull that was found in the wall of the house and we'll see what we can find out about it. Yeah, just put it in a box and ship it to us. And I'm like, do you know what you're asking of me? So we packed it up, you know, lots of bubble wrap. And then I'll never forget when I was at the FedEx, I'm like, the person was asking me the value of it and I'm like, yeah, right. But I wrote like, fragile all over it. I'm like, please be really careful. You know, you're just kind of like freaking out because obviously if something happens to it, I mean, you've lost your case and you've lost human remains, which would not be good. Gabriela did a great job packing up the skull because it arrives undamaged. And after Reina enters it into their chain of custody, it's unpacked and examined in the lab. Now this is a highly controlled environment. Forensic scientists wear head to toe white coveralls with gloves and goggle. And the day I visited, a technician had a human leg bone laid out on a table. Oh, that's like a sci fi movie or something. Yeah. And Kristin Mittleman of Othram explains what happens next. Here we are in the bone room. So this is a human bone. And you can see here she has the measuring tape out and she's. This is an unidentified remains case. You can see that the remains are pretty old because you can see all that calcification and stuff on the outside. Where were you watching from? Were you in the room with the bone? So we weren't in the room because it's such a highly controlled environment. But we're standing just outside of the bone room which has floor to ceiling glass and so what she's going to do now is she's going to label and photograph all of this and then she's going to drill into that bone and get a small amount of the interior of the bone so that the DNA can be extracted. And once she does that, and she's going to do it right now so you can watch it, she's going to take that part of the bone and solubilize it in a solution and then start to extract the DNA. And. And that's when it goes back into the DNA extraction room. I can hear the sound of the drill. Yeah. And it sort of looks like if you were to drill through a piece of pottery, like there's some dust coming up. Once the technician is done, the bone samples are run through custom built machines and software that identify hundreds of thousands of DNA markers. All of these are tiny clues as to who this person is. So I'm guessing this is the same thing that happens to the skull Gabriela sent. And once the DNA is extracted, what happens? Because we need a name. Like, who does this skull belong to? Yeah, exactly. And that's where Othram's team of genetic genealogists come in. My name is Carla Davis and I am the chief genetic genealogist at Othran. Karla Davis and her team take the genetic profile that's been generated and they start building out family trees. I'm fascinated by this part of the investigation. So I was really excited to talk to Carla and ask her how she got into this kind of work. I was born into it because I was born, born not knowing who my father was. And that part of me was always missing. It was as if there was a hole in my heart. Right. And DNA came on the scene. So my first DNA test was on 23andMe. And at that time I had like 5th to 8th cousins. I didn't know what to do with 5th to 8th Cousins. I didn't understand how DNA worked and I didn't know anyone on my list. Right. So I'm like, oh, this is not going to help. Then I took an ancestry DNA test. I had a third cousin match and I said, okay, I think I can do something with a third cousin match. So I just started absorbing and learning anything and everything that I could get my hands on. So how to apply DNA evidence to genealogical research. And I'm like, I'm onto something here. And then I ended up identifying my birth father. What was that like for you, even emotionally? Oh, my goodness. You know, it was like if you look At a picture, and you tear it in half. You only see half of that person. You don't see the other half. It's just finding who he was. Even though he had passed away back in 2005, it completed the picture of who I was. Carla learned that her dad was a truck driver and an amateur race car driver and that she was his only child. And I should add that Carla's mom died when she was 5, so she grew up desperate to know more about both of her parents. After that discovery, Carla says she became kind of addicted to genealogy research, and she started helping adoptees who were looking for their birth parents. She ends up solving over 200 cases, and before she knows it, strangers are emailing her asking for her help. So when the Golden State Killer was announced, it was like, I can apply what I know. So I knew that this was going to be the future of how perpetrators and unidentified human remains would be identified. So how does she make the leap to working on crime scene evidence? Yeah, good question. I was curious about that too. For me, it really is personal because when my daughter was 10 years old, her friend was kidnapped and brutally murdered, and her body was thrown in the ravine in New Orleans. And it was devastating. Not just to my daughter, to myself, to the entire community. It was as if time stopped until she was found. What did that mean to that community? She was just our house just the weekend prior to her being taken. I didn't want my daughter going outside to play anymore. I was scared to death for that. When a person is taken and they go missing, it's not just their family that suffers. It's such a larger scale. So to get them home and give everyone answers, I don't think anyone has closure, but somehow it's information that will allow them to hopefully heal. That should be our mission. I want to talk about the case of the human skull found in the wall of the house. You worked on that. One of the things that caught my attention was this person died before 1900. This could be one of the oldest cases that Othram solved, and sure enough, it was one of the oldest cases that we have solved to date. What was challenging about the case? So if you've ever taken a consumer DNA test, once your results are complete, you are given a list of names that are your genetic relatives. And in this case, the most recent common ancestors dated back to the late 1700s. Oh, my goodness. So we had to use historical records, census records, birth certificates, birth records, death announcements, death records, military records, whatever we can use to identify each generation in this case, Carla's able to track down ancestors, a couple who had six kids. And based on the DNA, she thinks the skull belongs to one of the six kids. So after almost 200 years, they're only six, six people that these bones could belong to. Two sons and four daughters. One daughter had died when she was eight years old. Two of the other daughters lived full lives and they had died and were buried in Nebraska. But there was one daughter that really we were focused on and that was Esther. Esther was born in 1848. So now you have to confirm Esther's identity with one of her living relatives. So I mentioned that Esther had one daughter, so that daughter had two children. So then we identified who those children were and then we got down to living people. At this point, Othram gives Gabriella Allison at the Kane County Coroner's office a short list of names and because they need one more DNA sample, and this time from someone who's alive. Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. 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Yeah, I thought it'd be nice to let you have this one. And one of the best new crime procedurals. You're waiting on me to leave so you can poke around without a warrant, aren't you? Yeah. High potential. New Tuesdays 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford. And I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty, which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results, and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful beauty confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com what kind of man would let this happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events, I'm working on a story about the Murdochs. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. It's only cheating if you get caught. Hulu Original Series Murdoch Death in The Family premieres October 15th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Well, it started my wife got a phone call, and it was Gabriella calling from the Kane County Coroner's office. I was at work. My wife called me and she said, I got this phone call, and I said, oh, my God, Marge, that sounds like just such a scam. My wife said, no, you should call him back. I think it's the real deal. Wayne Swiller is a retiree living in Oregon, and he listens to his wife and he calls Gabriella back. And Gabriella begins to explain. Explain why she's calling. I interrupted her and I said, hey, I just gotta tell you right off the bat, I don't believe you. This is just too incredible. And it turns out he's a former police officer who's worked cold cases for decades. Oh, so maybe he's skeptical from experience. Yeah. I mean, he knows this call could be a scam. Maybe like someone he put behind bars years ago is trying to get back at him. But his wife is intrigued, and she convinces him to give Gabriela a chance to explain. They knew the history of the whole case, and they were so excited and committed that I thought, you can't fake this. These guys are all in, and I've got to help them out. Whatever I can do. It's ironic that having investigated cold cases in the past, now weans on the other end of the phone. Yeah, and he knows how it feels for Gabriela to make that call because he's done it so many times himself in homicides and missing person cases. You don't just work that job and then leave. You take that job with you because you get to know the Families, you get to know the victims. There's mothers of some of these victims that will come down to the precinct every year on the anniversary of their son or daughter's death and just check in and see if there's been any new developments. I mean, you're talking 20 years after their loved one has been killed, and it made it really personal. That's more than a job that walks around with you. I'm guessing Wayne agrees to give some of his DNA. Yeah, he gives what's called a DNA reference swab, which is really just a quick swab from the inside of his cheek. Is it a match? Yeah. It turns out that Esther Ann Granger is Wayne's great, great grandmother. Oh, my God. That's so cool. So now that we have a name, what do we know about her? She was born in Indiana in 1848, and she marries her husband Charles when she's 16. Esther becomes pregnant pretty soon after that with her first child. But sadly, she dies after giving birth to her daughter, who they also name Esther. Oh, that's so sad. But that's so sweet that they named her daughter after her. But I also wonder, how did her skull end up in the wall of a home 80 miles away in Illinois? And where's the rest of her body? Yeah, I know a lot of people have been wondering about that. Gabriela and Rob have some ideas. Well, the running theory is that she was grave robbed. Her body was sold to somebody, you know, a medical school or individual who was a broker. Kind of gross to talk about, but a broker of body parts. We don't know if she was sold as a whole or if they parted it out and sold it to different types of schools. We also know the first homeowner that had the house built, he was a doctor. He died soon after that, and his son stayed and lived there, and he was a surgeon. How she actually got in the wall, I don't know that we'll ever know. So we don't know if the rest of Esther's body is still in that house? We don't. But remember, the cadaver dog didn't smell anything. And police back then didn't have any reasons really to take apart any more of the walls. So maybe we won't ever know. What about Wayne? What does he do with Esther's skull? So officials in Batavia, Illinois, where Esther's remains were found, offered to cremate the skull and inter her ashes in the local cemetery. And Wayne traveled to be there. I think in some ways, my reaction surprised me. I've been really a private person. It was just that wave of emotions that, you know, I never got to meet her and kind of, I guess sadness about how we got to where we were, but also just the emotion of closure and the respect that she deserved and wishing that she had a different path. Right. Sad that she had died at such a young age. And then the way that her remains were treated in the process. And I don't blame anybody for that. From almost the beginning, I felt like this story needed to be told. Your life makes a difference, the people you touch. It made a difference and it needs to be acknowledged. It strikes me that solving this case not only gives Esther back her identity, but it fills in some of Wayne's family history, connecting him to ancestors he didn't even know existed. And it's a case with no eyewitnesses, no clues. I mean, there's not even a crime scene to investigate. And it all came down to DNA to solve a mystery from 150 years ago. Next time on America's Crime Lab. Dispatch received a 911 call from a neighbor. When they answered the door, they found her in nothing but a blood soaked T shirt. You know what? It looks like there's another case in another state that also has unknown DNA that is the same. You know, then I'm really excited. Now we have a potential suspect. America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. Erica Lance is our story editor and sound design is by David Woje. Our producing team is Catherine Fenollosa, Emily Forman and Jessica Alpert. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadigadur and David and Kristen Mittleman. And from iHeart, Katrina Norville and Ally Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Etor, Nathan Etosky, John Burbank and the entire team at Othram. I'm Aylin Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening. What kind of man would let this happen to his family? Inspired by shocking actual events I'm working on, the story about the Murdoch. Their abuses of power are playing out in real time. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. It's only cheating if you get caught. Hulu Original series Murdoch Death in The Family premieres October 15th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. For bundle subscribers, terms apply. Have you ever heard a story so unbelievable it just had to be true? Roofman is the jaw dropping new film about Jeffrey Manchester, played by Channing Tatum, a man who becomes infamous for breaking into over 40 McDonald's through the roof, then secretly living inside of Toys R Us for six months. 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