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Americanswers… On 5 Live! Another US citizen shot dead by ICE. What happens next?
00:40:42
Pressure mounts on Trump for an inquiry into the killing of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis
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- [00:00]
Justin
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Sarah
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- [01:08]
Justin
Vigils this weekend across the state of Minnesota. Also beyond that state, other parts of the United States as well. Joining in because of course, there has been another fatal shooting in Minneapolis. The shooting was of Alex Pretty, a 37 year old American citizen shot dead on Saturday by federal immigration agents. So in this episode, number one, what do we know? Number two, what is the story the Trump administration is telling about this? And is that story changing? Because number three, are they under much more political pressure than they realized they would be? We will also, I should say later, get to your questions on five live on a whole range of subjects because as usual, there is plenty more going on. Welcome to AmericasT.
- [01:56]
Sarah
AmericasT, AmericasT from BBC News, when Donald.
- [02:01]
Anthony
Trump calls, they say, yes sir, right away, sir.
- [02:04]
Justin
Happy to lick your boot, sir.
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Sarah
We are the sickest country in the world. Oh dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests.
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E
What a stupid question.
- [02:15]
Justin
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? Hello, it's Justin in our Westminster studio.
- [02:27]
Sarah
In London and it's Sarah here in our bureau in Washington.
- [02:31]
Justin
Let's begin, Sarah, with what we actually know factually. Because of course, facts are the. It's just part of this entire story is how facts are assembled by each side to support their own side. And there seems to be no agreement now in modern America about anything when it comes to what actually happened. But let Us try to agree on what actually happened, what we know about what happened. And we are assisted in that, aren't we, by the fact that there is video.
- [03:01]
Sarah
Yeah, absolutely. 37 year old Alex Pretti, intensive care nurse who was protesting against ICE agents in Minneapolis, was shot dead on Saturday morning. That's not in dispute whatsoever. The circumstances of how that happened though immediately there were different interpretations of that and there were several videos very quickly became available on social media. Many, many people will have seen them already and they are disturbing because what we see in the video is Alex pretty clearly with a mobile phone in his hand. Not a gun, a mobile phone that he's using to film the ICE officers as many, many of the protesters in Minneapolis are doing. He is pepper sprayed by one of the agents, as is another woman who is standing near him. He goes to try and help her up after she fell over, is sprayed again by another agent. And they, a number of them tackle him to the ground. Now why is not at all clear. But they're on top of him on the ground, sort of grabbing his legs, holding him down. And then it seems as though one of them notices that he has a gun. He has a firearm in a holster on his h and the agent takes it out of the holster and removes it. And around about that time some of the agents, we don't know which ones exactly, are shouting, he's got a gun. But the gun is taken from him before we hear any gunshots. And it's really unclear, looking at the videos, what provoked one of the agents to start firing at him and then another to carry on. A total of 10 shots hit Alex Peretti and he is lying on the ground the whole time. Very, very difficult to see what threat he posed to these agents who shot him in the back. It's possible, I guess, that when one of them shouted he's got a gun, they didn't know that it had been removed from him. But at no point ever was the gun in his hand. You can see that very clearly from the videos. It was a cell phone that he had in his hand at the beginning and there's nothing in his other hand. But as you say, Justin, very, very quickly people are seeing what they want to in this incident and in these videos and leaping very quickly to the conclusion either that Alex Pretty was a menace who was threatening violence against these ICE agents who had to react like this in self defense, or other people who think that they're just, they're witnessing a murder in the streets of Minneapolis basically. And very, very quickly we got quite extreme responses from both sides.
- [05:30]
Justin
Okay, let's hear both of those now. First, the Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem speaking.
- [05:34]
Sarah
On Saturday at 9:05am Central Time, the Department of Homeland Security law enforcement officials and officers were conducting targeted operations in Minneapolis against an illegal alien whose criminal history included domestic assault with intentionally inflicting bodily harm, disorderly conduct, and driving without a valid license. An individual approached U.S. border Patrol officers with a 9 millimeter semiautomatic handgun. The officers attempted to disarm this individual, but the armed suspect reacted violently, fearing for his life and for the lives of his fellow officers around him. An agent fired defensive shots. Medics were on the scene immediately and attempted to deliver medical aid to the subject, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. The suspect also had two magazines with ammunition in them that held dozens of rounds. He also had no id. This looks like a situation where an individual arrived at the scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement. Now, Alex Brady's family, Justine, came out really quickly after that statement to denounce what they said were lies that were being told about their son. If you look very carefully at what Kristi Noem said, she did say that he had a weapon, not that he was pointing that weapon at agents, but that was clearly the kind of inference of what she was saying when she said he approached Border patrol officers with a 9 millimeter semi automatic handgun, one I should say, that he is licensed to carry. So he wasn't breaking the law in any way by having that weapon with him.
- [07:12]
Justin
Yeah. So for the other side of it, then, let's hear from the Governor of Minnesota, Tim Walsh. Well, as I said last week, this federal occupation of Minnesota long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement. It's a campaign of organized brutality against the people of our state. And today that campaign claimed another life. I've seen the videos from several angles, and it's sickening. But I have a strong statement here for our federal. Our federal government. Minnesota's justice system will have the last word on this. It must have the last word. As I told the White House in no uncertain terms this morning, the federal government cannot be trusted to lead this investigation. The state will handle it. Period. Minnesotans are witnessing, and we're creating a log of evidence for the future prosecution of ICE agents and officials responsible for this. They're helping their neighbors. They're walking their kids to school. They're feeding families. I salute their courage and their restraint. And I call on all Americans to see the decency that this state is exhibiting and the horrific cruelty, unprofessional, absolute abomination that is passing for what these ICE agents are doing on our streets. Just taking everything he said one step at a time. Interesting about the investigation because of course, this is a big question, wasn't it after the first killing, there still hasn't been a court case and may well not be. I mean, can he actually, does he have the power? We go back to this business of whether he, whether the state has the power to prosecute. When the officer is a federal officer.
- [08:55]
Sarah
Technically you could be prosecuted by state officials. The problem is the investigation, because the Homeland Security Department were not allowing Minnesota or Minneapolis officials to get involved in any way in the investigation into the shooting of Renee Goode. So what has happened in this instance is that fairly extraordinary lengths have been gone to by the Minnesota police to try and investigate this themselves, while at the same time, you've got ICE closing the crime scene, sweeping away evidence, not allowing anybody to come in and investigate this if they're part of state police. But you've got all of this video evidence around, you've got the ability of the police to go and take witness statements from people who were there. So they are going to try to mount state first investigation and then, if it's merited, prosecution. But it will be very, very unusual and I imagine it will be fought very hard by the Department of Homeland Security. So we're in uncharted territory here. But I think on both side there will be a great determination to try and, well, either make this happen or stop it from happening.
- [10:00]
Justin
And at the level of the administration, I wonder if there is such a. We've just heard from Kristi Noem and she sounded very certain about what she said, though plainly some of what she said is, to put it mildly, that doesn't appear to be true. But at the level of the administration, can we say that they are beginning to kind of alter their story? Because initially behind the scenes, people were saying this guy was on his way to commit a massacre, weren't they? And now Donald Trump himself is saying, well, we need to review it all, we need to look at what happened, which is a much milder thing for him to say. What's going on, do you think, behind the scenes, Sarah, in the White House?
- [10:41]
Sarah
Yeah, indeed. And the very idea of investigating exactly what happened before leaping to conclusions and making provocative public statements is something that the administration hasn't been going along with up until now when it came to these kind of incidents. I think what it looks like happening is that Donald Trump himself can sense that this isn't going to play well with the public and with voters in a way that those around him cannot. Because instantly it wasn't just Kristi Noem, the head of the FBI, Kash Patel, some of the other people in the Trump administration, they were all very, very quick to rush to judgment and insist that Alex Preddy posed a very, very dangerous threat to the ICE agents on the ground. But Trump waited a beat and now says he's going to be reviewing everything before commenting and very, very interestingly is sending his border czar, Tom Homan to Minnesota. Now, Minnesota is nowhere near the border, as you know perfectly well, Justin, as well. It's near the not that far from the Canadian border, but it's certainly nowhere near the southern border that Tom Homan is usually in charge of. Now, he is seen as a real immigration hawk. He is somebody who was all in favor of cracking down hard on the southern border. He was quite moderate, though, in his langu after Renee Goode was killed a couple of weeks ago. He's been pretty careful about what he said so far. And the idea that Donald Trump is sending him to look into this, I think is a slap in the face for Christine Ohm, who has been very, very forthright on this, who loves to shove herself to the forefront of anything controversial and say the most outrageous things that she can come up with. I think Donald Trump can tell now that that is not the way to handle these situations. He wants to de escalate it a bit. He thinks that Tom Holman able to do that. And he was very measured in what he himself personally said about Renee Goode as well. It was J.D. vance that he sent out to give the real full throated aggressive response that MAGA might want to hear about. Whereas out of Donald Trump's own mouth we haven't heard that kind of thing. And I think that's his Spidey senses telling him that actually this is one he doesn't want to end up on the wrong side of.
- [12:51]
Justin
Yeah, and he doesn't have to have that much of a Spidey sense, does he? To see that amongst Republicans and independents in particular, but also actually among Republicans and not necessarily all the usual suspects, the kind of people like Senator Thom Tillis who's retiring and other people who've criticized him quite a lot recently. That Congressman Massie, is it Thomas Massie, isn't it? Who's always attacking him these days, particularly over Epstein? There are sort of a few who are the usual suspects but actually, this has gone wider than that. And some conservative newspapers and online outlets have also been suggesting. Hang on a second, this is not the way that you should perform. It's not the way we expect federal officers to be. And at the very least, there needs to be a kind of open investigation. And he's obviously picking up on that, isn't it? Because, I mean, I really hesitate from saying ever about Donald Trump or his administration that kind of, you know, now they've gone too far, because, frankly, people have been saying that since before 2016, and it never turns out to be the case. But I do think that exactly as you say, Donald Trump actually does have quite a good sense of when he might have gone a bit far or when the rhetoric's gone too far and when the actions have gone too far potentially, and has the ability to dial back. And it does look as if he's doing it now, doesn't it?
- [14:12]
Sarah
Yeah, that's right. There have been several Republican governors have come out and said that they're deeply uneasy about what's going on in Minnesota, as well as a few senators and other senior Republicans whom we don't often hear, or in some cases ever hear criticizing Donald Trump. And then look at somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene now, she has broken with Donald Trump over the Epstein files. They've fallen out, and she's stood down from Congress. Nonetheless, though, I mean, she is very, very maga. Her instincts are where Donald Trump supporters are. And you would normally expect her to be very gung ho about ICE agents being allowed to do whatever they wanted to on the streets of American cities. But she said after this shooting that other MAGA supporters need to take their political blinders off and warn that they're being incited a civil war. And said she unapologetically believes that border security should be allowed to deport illegal aliens and supports law enforcement. But I also unapologetically support the Second Amendment, and that's important. It's the Second Amendment, Justin, as you know very, very well, is the right to bear arms. And by saying that Alex Peretti was inviting this because he turned up at a protest with a firearm, basically what a lot of Second Amendment supporters are hearing is that their right to bear arms is being threatened by this administration, of all people.
- [15:34]
Justin
Yeah. And on that, Sarah, you've got Kash Patel, the head of the FBI, very controversial head of the FBI, very much a Trump man, saying you cannot bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines to any sort of protest that you want. It's that simple. You don't have the right to break the law and incite violence. This is in an interview with Fox News, to which the National Rifle association and various other gun supporting bodies are saying what? You do have that right. And it's also very important for those who believe in the Second Amendment. It's incredibly important that you should be allowed to do it. And of course, there was that famous or infamous case, depending on your politics, in all of this, that guy, Kyle Rittenhouse, which was a few years ago now, wasn't it? It was in a place called Kenosha. It was the height of Black Lives Matter. A black person had been shot by the police, someone who was wanted for various offences. There were various riots going on. And Kyle Rittenhouse was a guy, white guy, who went to the riots, armed and shot two people dead and a third who survived and was acquitted. And with the great support of conservative Republicans and the great support of gun rights advocates, because they make the point that in America, you do not have to leave your gun at home is the whole point of having the gun in the first place. So suddenly, the Trump administration has got itself into but another mess over whether or not you have the right to bear arms, frankly.
- [17:06]
Sarah
Yeah. Because it's this reflexive need to defend the border agents rush to support them and denigrate anybody who was protesting against them, who has been injured or shot means. Yeah. That they're making mistakes like this. Because when Kash Patel says you cannot bring a firearm to any sort of protest that you want, he's wrong. You can. It is a constitutionally protected right. Now, he's correct when he says that you don't have the right to break the law and incite violence. But the Constitution doesn't think that bringing a firearm to a protest is breaking the law or inciting violence. And a lot of people who are maybe constitutional absolutists who tend to be on the right, people who think that the constitutional amendments are like the Ten Commandments, are seeing the First Amendment being threatened here. The right to free speech, that is the right to protest on the streets of Minneapolis. The way that protesters are being dealt with, the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms, being interfered with here, the Fourth Amendment is what protects you from illegal search, seizure and detention. Lots and lots of us American citizens are being rounded up on the streets for protesting, taken into detention, sometimes mistakenly shipped to other states and detention centers, all sorts of rights being interfered with there. And before you know it, you're going to have people who would normally be sympathetic to the idea of these immigration raids, thinking that the way that they're affecting the. The American citizens who are out protesting about them has just gone too far. Because people who see this as an invasion on the streets of Minneapolis, which is essentially what the Governor, Tim Waltz, is saying, and people who think that there is an insurrection happening on the streets with these protesters trying to prevent ICE agents from doing what they have been sent there to do, and that's a fairly extreme division on the streets of America right now.
- [18:59]
Justin
Also strikes me that they're not really got their story straight when it comes to trying to convince people that the underlying thing that they're doing is going well. So this is about rounding up criminals, including dangerous criminals. And there's no question there are some dangerous criminals who have illegally come into the United States who are in the United States. Nobody would deny that. And most Americans would also say, yeah, round them up and send them away. But I've seen some weirdly varying estimates from the White House about how many of these people have been rounded up. And One figure was 10,000 came from somewhere, and then someone else was saying 3,000. I mean, it just seems to me that in the business of communication, they do need to actually have a story that they can tell to the American people if they are going to convince, particularly independents, people who kind of think that this may not be a bad idea to do this, but maybe they're making a few mistakes along the way. If those people are going to be brought on board, you've got to be able to tell them a story. And I don't see that story at the moment. No.
- [20:00]
Sarah
And some of it is a bit chaotic. You'll have situations where the ICE agents are going after one particular named individual, maybe breaking down the door of somewhere that they think this guy lives, only to find that he is in prison, which they ought to have known, maybe in a state prison, that his name's on a list that's already been handed over to the Department of Homeland Security, that nobody was trying to hide him away in a prison. You know, that they maybe been informed in several different ways that you will not find the convicted criminal that you're looking for at such and such address. You'll find him in a penitentiary. And yet, nonetheless, they are still storming the streets looking for him because there doesn't seem to be a functioning bureaucracy within the Department of Homeland Security. And that further decreases people's confidence in how they're going about this. And it's. That kind of story is going to get more prominence the More you have incidents like this. I read an astonishing figure that more than 80% of people in America have watched the video of Renee Goode being shot. And I imagine a similar number will end up watching these videos of Alex Pretty. There's not very many things that happened in America, bar the Super Bowl. I don't think that actually are seen by 80% of people in this country.
- [21:12]
Justin
Yeah. So. And that then leads to the question, how big a moment is this in terms of America's politics, in terms of Donald Trump's ability to carry on doing what he wants to do? Specifically, I suppose, in terms of the Republicans ability to win the midterms and keep hold of the House and indeed even the Senate in November. Is this a kind of turning point? And I was saying earlier on, the one thing you don't ever want to do with Donald Trump is say, oh, that's it, it's all over. But this does feel quite big, actually.
- [21:43]
Sarah
Yeah, it does. It feels as though, especially in an election year with the midterms coming up, it feels like something that people really do care a great deal about. And it was interesting last week, even before second shooting, what was happening on the streets of Minneapolis was a much, much bigger story in the American media than the threats to Greenland and the rift within NATO and everything that Donald Trump was doing on foreign affairs when he was speaking in Davos. It was Minneapolis that people were glued to here in the United States and will remain so this week even more as a result of what's happened here. But the Democrats have to play this carefully, too. Their response from Tim Waltz, the governor of Minnesota, from Jacob Fry, the mayor of Minneapol. They've been very, very strong. You had Jacob Fry, the Minneapolis mayor, saying, how many more people have to die before they can get federal agents off the streets of his city? That kind of thing, which are all strong political appeals. But when it comes to the wider politics, what the first thing the Democrats want to do is basically hold up a budget bill that's going to go through Congress sometime very soon because they don't want to approve any more funding for the Department of Homeland Security. And if they don't approve that, we could end up with another government shutdown. And this is how they want to protest what's happening with ICE agent raids across the country. But that comes very, very close to defund the police, doesn't it? If the only way you can strike back at the dhs, the Department of Homeland Security, is to try and prevent funding it, then you've got to be very careful with the messaging. Are you saying that you don't want illegal aliens to be deported? Are you saying you don't want agents to be able to go criminals who are living in this country illegally? Because that's not a message that would be popular. So how do you judge it correctly, that you can put together some sort of legislative protest, but say it's about the tactics ICE agents are using, not about the concept of deporting people who've got no right to be in America?
- [23:45]
Justin
Yeah, it's such a good point that. Because there are also plenty of Democrats, aren't there, on the left, the sort of progressive left, the Democratic Party. And you think of Mayor Mamdani in New York as being absolute principal among them, them who would abolish ICE and have long called for the abolition of ice. They didn't wait for this to happen. They thought the body was out of control some time ago, even when most Americans thought it probably wasn't out of control and maybe should be bolstered. Now that ICE is part of American politics, how far can you go? It's an open question, really, isn't it? Is it dangerous to call for it to be defunded? Is it dangerous to call for it to be abolished? Or maybe these shootings mean that it's much less dangerous, certainly in parts of America where the Democrats are powerful. But of course, if they are going to broaden their appeal, and we've talked so long and hard, haven't we, about how they broaden their appeal, how they still need to broaden their appeal to win the next presidential election, then is all of this going to play against them? So you can see, and you can see within the party, can't you, already actually tensions between those who, who want to say, who want to keep it under wraps, that kind of sense of we've got to abolish all of this and start again and those who want to go for it.
- [25:02]
Sarah
Yeah. And I mean, is ICE fit for purpose? Can ICE be brought under control? I mean, I think it's pretty clear from some of the videos we've seen that their training leaves something to be desired. I mean, they doubled their numbers very, very quickly. So how experienced or how well trained some of these agents that are the. The streets are, I think, is a very important question as well as an open question at the moment. Some of the mistakes they've made and the people that they've been detaining and that kind of thing as well. I mean, I think there may be a perfectly good Argument for saying that you need to start again with an agency who is in charge of the enforcement of customs and immigration. Maybe you do need to abolish ICE and replace it with something. But, yeah, it's a difficult and potentially dangerous political question for some Democrats.
- [25:49]
Justin
Okay, then we promised you more questions because as ever with Donald Trump, there is always a lot to discuss your questions rather than our attempted answers. So, for instance, did Donald Trump properly apologize over Afghanistan? What about the President's bruised hand? What's going on there? What about the threats to Canada over China? It is Monday, so we did it all live on five Live with Matt Chorley and Anthony and Marion joined us. Here we go.
- [26:26]
Matt Chorley
Let's turn to something quite rare which happened over the weekend. A Donald Trump climb down of sorts. So you remember at the end of last week, huge uproar Thursday, Friday over his claim that non American NATO troops avoided the front line in Afghanistan, which prompted criticism from veterans and politicians, including from Keir Stara. Well, over the weekend, he wrote online, the great and the very brave soldiers of the United Kingdom will always be with the United States of America. In Afghanistan, 457 died, many were badly injured and they were among the greatest of all warriors. It is a bond too strong to ever be broken. The UK military, with tremendous heart and soul, is second to none, brackets, except for the usa. We love you all and always will. Well, on the back of that, Jim from Aberdeen is on the line. Hello, Jim.
- [27:09]
Sarah
Hello. Hello, Matt.
- [27:10]
Matt Chorley
What is your question, Jim?
- [27:12]
Justin
It was relating to that I wondered if the King had had an influence here, because I know he doesn't usually and would want to stay out of politics, but as commander in Chief of the British Armed Forces, does he, would he not have the right, and some might say a duty to demand an apology? Now, we've had this, what he describes a climb down or one of his usual statements. He still has to get in American forces just that wee bit better and.
- [27:44]
Sarah
He just doesn't seem to be able to actually apologise.
- [27:48]
Justin
Why is it for him that sorry seems to be the hardest word?
- [27:53]
Matt Chorley
Well, there's a whole book in that, Anthony. But what's the inside track, Anthony? Is it right that the King's concerns were relayed to the White House?
- [28:04]
Anthony
I could certainly see something like that happening. The White House, as you mentioned, has, has tried to back away from this as best they can. And Donald Trump's statement heralding the contributions of British soldiers in Afghanistan, you know, not, not an apology per se, but clearly an acknowledgement of the hot water that, that Trump had gotten into for these comments. You know, everything he said about Greenland and all the things he said at Davos last week. The thing that seemed to have generated the most amount of controversy and anger from America's European allies and NATO allies was this lie about them serving on the back lines in Afghanistan. And I think it's because it seemed to question the sacrifices, the very real sacrifices that Brits, as well as Danish soldiers and others from NATO made during that conflict.
- [28:53]
Sarah
It was noticeable, wasn't it, in the statement that Donald Trump referred only to British forces and their sacrifice, not all of the other NATO forces that he was denigrating when he'd said that a day or two earlier. And we know that he'd had a phone call with Sir Keir Starmer before he put that message out. The other thing to remember is that the king's people are in touch with Trump's people at the moment very much because they're arranging a state visit for April, I think it is when the King is going to be here in the United States as part of the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States celebrations. So it is a particular time when the White House is going to know about how the King is feeling and maybe care more than usual about what he thinks.
- [29:34]
Matt Chorley
Well, it's a great question. Thank you for that, Jim. Let's move on. We've got a voice note now from. All right.
- [29:40]
Sarah
There is talk of the US President's mental and physical decline should he be diagnosed, unable to fulfill his duties before the end of his mandate and somehow moved away. Does his VP automatically take over? Thanks. Has ever awed your regular French listener in London.
- [30:08]
Matt Chorley
Now, Mariana, we get a lot of. I mean, last week when we were taking Donald Trump's speech live from Davos, we get a lot of messages with people speculating about Donald Trump's health. Yes, there's just an awful lot of that online as well.
- [30:22]
E
Oh, there's so much online. I mean, it was the same with Joe Biden. It's been the same to. To be honest, it's kind of the same with any prominent figure who is a bit older, really, although not even a bit older. Like there are people's health get speculated about all the time, not least because you can basically pour over pictures of them and analyz bruises like the bruise on Donald Trump's hand or various other sort of ailments and come and jump and jump to conclusions about what they might be think of President Putin for Example, I mean, people do it all the time around him and analyzing his health. Since Donald Trump became president this time around, it has been like that just constantly, really. And every new picture or video that emerges just further fuels it. It's been slightly different to Joe Biden because when, for example, Joe Biden would, like, fall over on the steps of Air Force One, people would go a bit bonkers about it. Whereas Donald Trump sort of owns the things that he does that are slight, slightly off the wall, if that's the right way of describing them. And so people have often just thought of that as his character. And so it tends to be stuff like the bruises that are a problem. I mean, it all feeds into both, like, legitimate speculation and then also very unconfirmed conspiracy theories. And I think when it comes to health in general, you don't really know until you know, do you?
- [31:28]
Matt Chorley
What is the truth of it, though, Sarah?
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Sarah
Well, he, he has been. He's given a couple of, let's say, long and rambling would be a polite and flattering way to describe his performance.
- [31:41]
Matt Chorley
A wide ra.
- [31:42]
Sarah
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Both his speech at Davos and the day before in the briefing room at the White House. And we are kind of used to that because we all listen to the events that he does and we hear him talking for an hour even longer, sometimes weaving around from topic to topic and using some familiar hackneyed old phrases. I would say that last week it was even more so the case, to the point where you wondered if he knew what he was talking about as he was rambling away. Now, whether that is a sign of any kind of cognitive decline, I have no idea at all. But I think it may be just that he was very tired. He had been up late on Monday night posting on social media about all the other NATO leaders he was cross with. Maybe he's not been getting enough sleep, but he was, yeah, he was off script more than usual last week, I think it's fair to say that.
- [32:28]
Matt Chorley
I mean, some of the discussion about Chubb's Health is also because he mixed up Iceland with Greenland when he was in Davos.
- [32:34]
Justin
Easily done.
- [32:34]
Matt Chorley
Easily done.
- [32:35]
Justin
Unless he wanted to take over one of those two places, I suppose there was some speculation.
- [32:40]
Matt Chorley
Maybe he met the Superman market.
- [32:42]
Justin
Quite right. The thing is, the question I want to know what happens to it. Anthony is going to be the best, the closest answer on that. But I mean, Anthony, the broad picture is surely absolutely nothing, because someone has to do something, and the various people who would have to do something are not going to do that thing.
- [33:01]
Anthony
Right. There are provisions in the 25th Amendment for presidential succession which would allow the Catholic Cabinet to come together and temporarily or permanently remove the president if that president is incapacitated. Of course, Trump, if he dies or if he resigns, that would be a removal as well. And the bottom line to answer our listeners question is that JD Vance would be the one who takes over the presidential line of succession is clear. If something happens to the president health related, whether removed by the cabinet, impeached and convicted by the US Congress or he dies or resigns, it is the vice president who takes over.
- [33:40]
Matt Chorley
Excellent. Well, thank you for that comprehensive answer to the question. Let's move on. Now we're going to talk Gaza Board of Peace. We've got Elizabeth on the line.
- [33:48]
Sarah
Elizabeth, hello. Hi.
- [33:51]
Matt Chorley
What is your question?
- [33:53]
Sarah
Well, mine was about the Board of Peace, but not so much about Gaza. And it's really about why Trump is putting himself at the head of the board with the ultimate power over what it does and says. And is he actually indulging in a bit of personal succession planning and creating a role for himself that sits above all the board members so he becomes senior to the heads of the countries and thereby installing himself above any future president of the US which will obviously do away with any need for him to run for the US Presidency again.
- [34:28]
Justin
Yeah, because he's president of the world via the Board of Peace. It's cleverly done. I think you're exactly right. And I think the distinction you make between the Board of Peace and the guard stuff is important because Gaza isn't mentioned in the charter of the Board of Peace. It's kind of taken off into other things, albeit there are junior boards that are meant to be sorting out Gaza. But if you just think of the Board of Peace as an entity, I mean, it seems to me that it's kind of wholly owned Trump thing, certainly an American owned thing. And there probably are reasons why, particularly actually if you're a smaller country or a less wealthy person, it might be rather good to be on it because there'll be various deals that you might be able to do with Jared Kushner, his son in law or various other people that maybe you wouldn't be able to if you weren't on it. So I'm sure there are attractions to being on it. And you could also say, look, there are all sorts of people on the United Nations Human Rights Council who probably shouldn't be there and there are all sorts of world bodies that have all sorts of unpleasant people on it. Et Cetera, et cetera. So it's not, we're not new to this. But on the other hand, what it actually does, I think you're dead right. I think it provides something for Donald Trump to do after 2020, which does.
- [35:37]
E
Is worth pointing out the irony of that because Donald Trump basically built an entire election campaign on saying that unelected sort of people involved in bureaucracy do not have a place in US Government or in or around it. And that would kind of be doing just that. I mean, that's, people of all stripes do that obviously, as we know.
- [35:54]
Matt Chorley
How much of that, Sarah, though, is a genuine desire to become king of the world and how much is just sort of Trump, you know, whether it's flooding the zone or just dominating the conversation or everyone losing their minds about something that he said.
- [36:08]
Sarah
No, no. I think this is really fascinating and is a genuine attempt to wrestle power away from international organizations and basically things like the United nations that are part of that kind of post war compact that we've been dealing with for 80 years or so now, which is about international cooperation between nations in order to try and keep the peace that Donald Trump doesn't believe in because he thinks that the strongest should have the loudest voice and that means America. And he has put himself as the chair of this Board of Peace in perpetuity. As I understand it. He doesn't leave as chair just when he finishes being president. And it's not automatic that the next US President would take over as the chair. It is Donald Trump who is in charge of this thing. And it's remit as written out by him, seems to go way beyond Gaza, which is what it was invented for, and will deal with conflicts all over the world. What we don't know is what kind of power it has. I mean, it has no intrinsic powers vested to it the way the United nations does. So it depends who sits on the board and basically who is prepared to commit either military or economic might to make things happen because the board has deemed that they ought to. Whether that's intervening in a conflict that's already going, trying to prevent one happening, dealing with trade conflicts, I'm sure it could get involved in all of these things. But unless some of the larger countries are prepared to put their weight behind it and say if smaller country X you don't do this, we will attack you in this or that way, then it's not going to have any influence or power. But if Donald Trump can marshal some of his friends into making those kind of threats, then it could become an alternative to the United nations or indeed any other international body. And it would have hit him and him alone firmly at the top of it.
- [37:57]
Matt Chorley
Let's move on now. We're off to Canada. Kevin from Germany's emailed in say hello, mailcast. I've noticed in the latest spat between President Trump and Canada over the latter's trade deal making with China, the Canadian prime minister being referred to as Governor Carney. So does it seem like the president has not given up his claim over Canada uniting with the usa? I mean, that's a story which dates all the way back to last year year. Anthony state of relations between Canada and America, not good.
- [38:27]
Anthony
I think at this point. You know, Donald Trump referred to Justin Trudeau as Governor Trudeau. I think it's a way of needling him in part because he really didn't like Trudeau. And once Trudeau was gone and Carney took over, it seemed like relations had warmed somewhat. The two men had a pretty good meeting at the White House initially after, after Carney was elected. They have since had a bit of a falling out. Tensions have increased over trade in particular and then in the last week over Carney's deal with the Chinese, a trade deal going to Beijing, having a trade deal with the Chinese, which Trump at first said, oh that's fine, Canada could do that, but then in recent days has turned around and said 100% tariffs if Canada moves to, to get into bed with with China. And also that speech, if you'll recall, that Carney gave in Davos last week where he said that there was a rupture in the international order that the United States had constructed after World War II, that things were changing and could no longer rely on the institutions as we had before. So I think you're seeing Carney try to find a different way that extracts himself from American power. And I think that's caught Trump's attention and he doesn't like those kind of slights. And so yeah, the relations are not good now and they don't seem to be heading towards any sort of amending anytime soon.
- [39:52]
Justin
It's interesting on the subject of relations with Trump, when you pal up with China, the Trump administration will be looking very carefully going back to that question about whether relationship been repaired now between Starmer and Trump. They'll be looking at that trip very carefully because they are exactly as anti has just said, they were very proud about Carney. It doesn't look as if he's done any kind of really big deals with China, but on things for instance, like electric vehicles being let in in large numbers, then Trump is very concerned about that and he will react if Starmer comes back from Beijing with some sort of big deal. Okay, that's it for today's episode. In case you missed it, we have done a whole episode about who ICE immigration agents actually are, how they are recruited, how they are trained. We did it all with a former director of ice and you can find that wherever you get your podcast. That though, for the time being, is it Bye Bye.
- [40:55]
Anthony
Thank you for listening to another episode. It's you, the ameracaster that makes americast the community it is. If you like what you've heard, please do subscribe to this podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We always want to hear your feedback and we look at every single bit of correspondence we get. You can send us an email americastbc.co.uk our WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and of course you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. Until next time, bye.
- [41:54]
Justin
The headlines never stop and it's harder than ever to tell what's real, what matters, and what's just noise. That's where Pod Save America comes in. I'm Tommy Vitor and every week I'm.
- [42:02]
Sarah
Joined by fellow former Obama aides Jon.
- [42:04]
Justin
Favreau, Jon Lovett and Dan Pfeiffer to break down the biggest stories, unpack what they mean for the future of our democracy, and add just enough humor to stay sane.
- [42:11]
Sarah
Along the way, you'll also hear honest.
- [42:12]
Justin
In depth conversations with big voices in politics, media and culture like Rachel Maddow, Gavin Newsom and Mark Cuban that you won't find anywhere else. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Friday, with deep dives every other weekend. Listen wherever you get your podcast podcasts, watch on YouTube or subscribe on Apple Podcasts for ad free episodes.