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Americanswers… on 5 Live! Can we trust what Donald Trump says about Ukraine?
00:27:25
The president now believes Kyiv can win back all of Ukraine
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- [00:00]
Matt Chorley
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- [00:06]
Podcast Announcer
Saks Off 5th is your secret to fashion's most wanted deals at up to 70% off on the hunt for designer steals that'll turn heads and leave a trail of envy. Uncover Gucci, Valentino, Versace, Stuart Weitzman and more. With new arrivals dropping weekly at prices too good to stay confidential, luxe layers, statement boots and tailored essentials From Saks Off 5th will put your wardrobe on the most wanted list. Head to saksoffvith.com or a Saks Off 5th store near you for a style lineup you won't want to miss. Welcome to the W where legends are made and history is written under the brightest lights. The WNBA delivers non stop action and world class talent every single game. And now it all comes down to will the New York Liberty defend their crown or will another team take the chip? This is where champions rise and legacies are defined. Watch the WNBA postseason currently underway on ABC and espn.
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Justin Webb
We've just come off the air with Matt Chorley doing our live Q and a episode on 5 Live. We were all there, unusual and very pleasant for us. We answered a load of questions, by the way, on this incredible range of subjects that just naturally comes up when you're looking at modern America. So among them, Tylenol, acetaminophen, paracetamol, as we call it in Britain. Should it or should it not be used by pregnant women? Donald Trump, of course, saying this week that it shouldn't. Lots of doctors saying he's absolutely wrong. Why did he say that? What was his motivation? Was one of our questions. We also talked about the U.N. and the things he had said about the U.N. we had quite a long discussion about the escalators and whether they had or had not been deliberately fixed to to annoy him. Plus, of course, what he thinks of Vladimir Putin. And we also had a lengthy discussion about freedom of speech because that almost always comes up, doesn't it, when you're discussing modern America? So all of those things covered in AmericasT. But arguably the biggest news of the day when Donald Trump addressed the United nations was when he posted online that Ukraine could win back all the territory it has lost to Russia. So since the start of the war. And that is how we kick things off with Matt. So let's get to it. Welcome to America. Answers.
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Podcast Announcer
AmericasT America from BBC News.
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Jimmy Kimmel
When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir.
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Sarah Smith
We are the sickest country in the world.
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Podcast Announcer
Oh dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry.
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Sarah Smith
Of course the president supports peaceful protests.
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Marianna Springs
What a stupid question.
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Donald Trump
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epste?
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Matt Chorley
Let's turn our attention to Donald Trump's appearance at the UN On Tuesday, where he gave, I think, what was to be described last night as a wide ranging speech, taking shots at his opponents and their ideas, including the UN Itself. And then later in the day, he posted a message on Truth Social where he said after getting to know the Ukraine, Russia situation and seeing the economic trouble it is causing Russia, I think Ukraine, with the support of the EU is, is in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form. The original borders from where this war started is very much an option, he said, which prompted our first question from Michelle on discord.
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Justin Webb
A few short months ago, Donald Trump.
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Anthony Zurcher
Said Russia held all the cards in the Ukraine Russian conflict. Now he says that Ukraine can win back all the land from Russia.
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Justin Webb
What's changed in the last couple of months?
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Matt Chorley
It's a big question, Sarah. What's changed?
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Sarah Smith
Well, nobody could accuse Donald Trump of being consistent on the messages he sends out about the Ukraine conflict. He has said kind of positive things like this before. Shortly after he has met President Zelensky and he usually reverts back to his support of Russia and the idea that Ukraine will have to give up some kind of land in order to get any kind of peace deal or ceasefire negotiated. At the moment, he's clearly very frustrated with Vladimir Putin because it was about five weeks ago he hosted him at that summit in Alaska, really thought that they had agreed something that they could move forward with. And there's been no movement from Vladimir Putin. So he's also been talking up new economic sanctions as well against Russia, although he says he wouldn't do that until European countries stop buying Russian oil. Otherwise it's all rather counterproductive. So, I mean, yet from what he said yesterday, it sounds very positive for President Zelenskyy who met him at the UN but there's two things. One, I think it's entirely likely he'll change his mind again probably as soon as he next speaks to Vladimir Putin. But also, even if he doesn't, he said it's possible Ukraine could win back all its land. He said nothing about helping them in any way to do so. And obviously that's what they've been trying to do for over three years now. Without really significant support largely from the United States, it's not going to be possible. So it was more of a kind of theoretical conjuring. I think that was coming from Donald Trump rather than a plan to assist them to win back all their land.
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Matt Chorley
And that's the issue sometimes, Justin, is that people, when Donald Trump says the thing that people want to hear, they oh, that's great news. Forgetting that, it's quite hard to lock him into that position before he goes to the thing.
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Justin Webb
Yeah, I mean, look, none of us know, do we, how locked in he is. I was talking to a friend of his, someone who knows him well, was at that banquet in Windsor Castle, a guy called Chris Ruddy, who is the boss of Newsmax, the right wing kind of competitor to Fox, but years ago was at the LSE and knows Britain well and talks quite openly about Trump. And what he says is that Trump was genuinely disappointed by Putin. So you can take it with a pinch of salt, you can take it how you like, but he, Ruddy is a friend of, I mean a friend of 30 years of Donald Trump. And he says he really has changed. Something snapped. He was really annoyed.
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Matt Chorley
Well, again, we have to see, is this the locked in position or will he become unlocked later? He also Donald Trump yesterday, one of the features of his speech at the UN was taking on the UN itself. Let's take a listen to some of that.
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Donald Trump
Not only is the UN not solving the problems it should, too often, it's actually creating new problems for us to solve. The best example is the number one political issue of our time, the crisis of uncontrolled migration. It's uncontrolled. Your countries are being ruined. The United nations is funding an assault on Western countries and their borders.
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Matt Chorley
So Mark has also been in touch on the discord. He asks, is Trump right in his Critique of the U.N. anthony?
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Anthony Zurcher
Well, I think even if you talk to people who work in the un, people who believe that the UN is a valuable institution, they're going to say that the UN does need change, does need reform. It's not functioning up in the way that it was designed to or should. So I think there is some validity in Trump's critiques. Now, what he's specifically pointing to there, saying that the UN is contributing to mass migration. I think he didn't really drill down into the details of that, but I think probably talking about UN support for refugees, which I think anyone who believes the UN is a good institution would say the UN should be doing more to support refugees and to help address core issues in these countries where people are moving out and because of famine or war or economic unrest. So I think you'll get a very real disagreement on that. But Trump isn't the first American politician to criticize the United nations, and he won't be the last. But it was pretty dramatic to see him standing there on stage, basically berating all of these different leaders from around the world, saying that they were ruining their countries by focusing on immigration and by spending money on climate issues and trying to embrace green energy policies. It showed the divisions between Donald Trump, America, at this point in time, and Europe, definitely, and much of the world.
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Sarah Smith
Honestly, one of the mistakes people often make about the UN Is that, no, it can be very inefficient, it can be very bureaucratic, but it isn't really. It's not a nation on its own. It can't go out and solve any wars, sign any peace treaties, or send troops in without the member nations. It is as strong as the member nations want to make it at any given time, and what they want to contribute. So often when you're criticizing the UN for not solving conflicts, what one's actually saying is the countries that could do something about this haven't stepped up through the auspices of the UN to do anything about it. You'll have noticed, Matt, though, that the. One of the other things Donald Trump was complaining about was that the building doesn't work either, largely because he wasn't allowed to refurbish it, he says. But he got on the escalator to go up to the General assembly hall to make his speech, and it stopped pretty much as soon as he stepped on it. And he was furious. He and Melania and his team had to walk up the steps. Then when he got into the hall, the teleprompter wasn't working. And he used this. And it's an example of how broken and useless the UN Is, which meant for most of yesterday, there was a huge search going on to find out what had happened to the escalator. And the best guess, after people have reviewed all the security footage and everything, is that the videographer from the White House who was walking backwards in front of Donald Trump to get video of him coming up, the escalator accidentally tripped it himself. And it turns out it was a White House person who was operating the teleprompter. So for all of his complaints about how this showed how rubbish the UN Is, it was largely the White House's fault that all of these things happened to him, it would appear.
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Matt Chorley
Very good. Well, I'm glad we sorted out the escalator business. Now, there was a big story only at the start of the week. Well, it's only Wednesday now, but this was on, this is on Monday when Donald Trump at the White House said that doctors in the US Will soon be advised not to prescribe the pain reliever Tylenol, known as, we call it paracetamol in the UK to pregnant women. Let's take a listen first.
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Donald Trump
Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that the use of acetia. Well, let's see how we say that. Acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Is that okay? Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol during pregnancy can be associated with a very increased risk of autism. So taking Tylenol is not good. All right, I'll say it. It's not good.
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Matt Chorley
We should say that medical experts have strongly pushed back on the claims, with some calling the President's comments dangerous. Rod's on the line. Hello, Rod.
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Justin Webb
Hello.
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Matt Chorley
Where are you in the world, Rod?
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Sarah Smith
I'm in Poole, in Dorset.
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Matt Chorley
Go on, what's your question?
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Justin Webb
My question is do the people in the American administration really believe what they.
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Sarah Smith
Say about vaccines and Tylenol? And if not, what is their agenda?
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Justin Webb
What do they get out of pushing this anti science?
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Matt Chorley
It's a great question, Rod. Sarah?
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Sarah Smith
Yeah, it's a fascinating question. Do they actually believe it? Some of them do. I think others are very happy to go along with an anti science agenda because it fits in with a sort of wider world view that they have. As Matt was saying. I mean, experts have pushed back. There is not a huge amount of evidence at all. One very tiny study that suggested there might be a connection between taking Tylenol in pregnancy and possibly a tenuous link to autism. I don't know if the President cares particularly how accurate any of this is. They had said way, way, way back six months ago that they would make a big autism announcement in September. We're getting towards the end of the month and they seem to have just grasped at one study that would allow them to make an announcement like this. A lot of people have been complaining. Well, I mean, not just about the anti science of the whole thing and the medical dangers, but that, you know, it sounds like you're blaming mothers for taking medications during pregnancy for their children's autism and people complaining that, you know, it's an anti woman agenda. When you're blaming mothers like this, there's all sorts of politics that swirl around the fact that, yeah, these announcements are made without a strong scientific backing. But if the suspicion that you may be hinting at that perhaps there's some kind of financial interest in this somewhere, nobody's been able to uncover that. It's not immediately obvious to see that, you know, people own shares in companies making alternative drugs or something. But, you know, who knows what might be uncovered at some point?
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Matt Chorley
Indeed, it's really interesting because what is the upside if the science suggests it's safe, There's a risk that, you know, people could die as a result of following the.
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Justin Webb
I don't know. I mean, we should hear from Mariana what people. Whether people are giving kind of proper, cogent reasons. I think Sarah's right that people go along with it even if they don't believe it. So a lot of it's about massaging the ego of Robert Kennedy Jr. I think it is as simple as that. Trump brought him in. Remember, he's a Democrat, very pro choice when it comes to abortion. Someone who kind of in many respects, a very uncomfortable figure in a Republican administration. But Trump brought him in, thought he was kind of kooky and interesting, and wants to give him the ability to do some things he wants to do. And I think Sarah is exactly right. Does Trump really care about this stuff, think about it much? No. But I also think there's this tribalism that leads a lot of people, including scientists who are inside the administration or advising the administration, just to keep quiet about it, because the wider mission is something that they approve of. Everyone is so tribal, and they are tribal, and they feel that they have to back, you know, the kind of opposition that there was. And a lot of it goes back to Covid and, you know, scientists who opposed the vaccine mandate or who opposed lockdowns and all the rest of it now feel they sort of have to be on board for anything that Robert Kennedy Jr. And his people come out with. And that, I think, is why you've got this herd following into this kind of mad place.
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Marianna Springs
Yeah, I think that we've reached this point where people essentially inhabit their own realities, really, rather than the objective, factual reality. And so it means that whatever happens, there always seems to be another reason or another excuse. And I think it's really important when we talk about all of the situation with Tylenol to focus on Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Because like both Justin and Sarah were saying, you know, he appears to be the. The focal point for an announcement like this. He is someone who's previously been very criticized for anti science and anti medicine views. He's held. He's very strongly pushed back on. That said, he's not anti any of those things. He's not anti vaccination, and that he just mainly is concerned about big pharmaceutical companies, which is a valid position to hold. But the problem is, is when some of these recommendations and decisions are either contrary to the body of scientific evidence or there's just not enough sufficient evidence to back up what he's saying. And it does have a real world consequence. I mean, when it comes to something like Tylenol, that could mean that, you know, someone has a really high fever and they choose not to take it and that could also impact their unborn baby. You've then also got, and I think this is really important to say it wasn't just Tylenol they spoke about. Donald Trump also spoke about vaccines. And actually the comments that he made about the MMR vaccine, so the one for measles and basically suggesting that you should kind of have it separately rather than altogether together again is something where there's just not the science to back that up. It harks back to some really debunked theories around autism and the MMR vaccine from Andrew Wakefield. People might remember him and that people have been very concerned about their impact. And remember there's been this measles outbreak in Texas in the US and kids have died and yet these comments are still being made. So on your point about, well, is there any accountability for when there are misleading or false suggestions made that could impact public health? Not really. And I think some of that is a result of the mainstreaming of anti medicine ideas online as well. They're kind of becoming normal.
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Matt Chorley
Well, it's a fascinating topic and I know you're going to cover it in more detail on tomorrow's AmericasT, but let's move on to Jimmy Kimmel, who after being pulled off the telly, made an emotional return to late night US Television last night with his late night chat show on abc. This is what he had to say about his suspension following his comments about the killing of Charlie Kirk.
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Jimmy Kimmel
You understand that it was never my intention to make light of the murder of a young man.
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Sarah Smith
I don't think there's anything funny about it.
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Jimmy Kimmel
I posted a message on Instagram on the day he was killed sending love to his family and asking for compassion. And I meant it and I still do. Nor was it my intention to blame any specific group for the actions of what it was obviously a deeply disturbed individual. That was really the opposite of the point I was trying to make. But I understand that to some that felt either ill timed or unclear or maybe both. And for those who think I did point a finger, I get why you're upset. If the situation was Reversed, there's a good chance I'd have felt the same way. I have many friends.
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Matt Chorley
And on he went, Jimmy Kimmel. He also made a point about the importance of free speech and the way President Trump was targeting his fellow late night hosts. So we've had this voice note from John in London about the free speech debate had been ignited in the US Since Kimmel's initial suspension from his talk show hi Americast.
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Justin Webb
Americans bang on about how free their speech is and bang on at us for not following their example. But after Jimmy Kimmel, how free is speech in the land of the free? Or is it now in America? Your speech is free as long as you agree with me.
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Anthony Zurcher
Bye. How poetic.
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Matt Chorley
Excellent rhyming question, John. I think all questions should rhyme in future. Anthony, how free is free speech in the land of the free?
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Anthony Zurcher
I think there's a very real concern that what happened after Jimmy Kimmel made those remarks last week, the way the federal government used its powers of regulation in order to pressure not just the network ABC, but ABC's affiliates, the stations that run Jimmy Kimmel and other ABC programming to object to that and to get him off the air. I think there's very real concern that that is an abuse of federal power and also a violation of, you know, free speech rights that are embedded in the Constitution. Those free speech rights are, say that the government cannot restrict free speech. So it wasn't just concerns expressed by people on the left, even people on the right like Ted Cruz, a Republican Senator, and Mitch McConnell, a senator from Kentucky, former leader, Senate leader in the Republican Party, they expressed concerns as well. And so you could also see the pushback against that and the fact that ABC decided to bring Kimmel back on and that there's been a lot of criticisms of the fcc, the Federal Communications Commission chair, Carr and others in the administration. I think that shows that Americans are sensitive to this, that they are concerned about it. That was apparently an overstepping of power. But I will also note that while Kimmel was back on the air last night, those affiliates, some of those affiliates chose not to air him. So he didn't air, for instance, here in Washington D.C. on the local ABC station, didn't air in some major cities across this country. And that is because there still may have been concern among some of these stations that they could feel pressure, they could get punished by this federal government in regulations, increased regulations, or maybe restrictions on business activities that encouraged them to, to try to speak out and keep Kimmel off the airwaves, to which people on the Right.
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Justin Webb
In America say, well, hang on a second. Yeah, I mean, if you're a Ted Cruz, as Anthony's mentioned and quite a few other people on the right, you've said, this is crazy. You can't go censoring Jimmy Kimmel and trying to get TV stations to take comedians off the air and all the rest of it. And there is sort of a debate about that. And Kimmel is back on the Arrowverse. Anthony says nothing. Not everywhere. But what they would say as well is, hang on a second. Google has just admitted in a letter to a congressional committee that during the Biden administration they censored at the behest of the Biden administration. They've apologized for doing it. People on YouTube who had views on Covid that didn't fit the US government view. And I think there is a lot of this kind of sense that on both sides there is extraordinary hypocrisy, actually. And this isn't a kind of one sided thing. Everyone wants to censor things that so, you know, the kind of liberal media and all of us think, oh, Jimmy Kimmel.
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Matt Chorley
Facebook took Donald Trump off because he didn't like his politics.
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Justin Webb
Exactly. So, you know, there's a kind of Jimmy Kimmel warmth because he's a handsome fellow and he doesn't like Donald Trump and lots of people don't like Donald Trump, et cetera. But as soon as it's something a bit more difficult, like you know, should you be allowed to go on YouTube and say crazy things about COVID which I imagine some of it at least was, are we okay with that being censored? And I just, just a kind of another point about free speech. It's not all political, of course. And when it comes to other kinds of free speech, as Anthony will know, well, they are much freer than we are. It's just simply, factually, empirically true that you can say whatever you like. For instance, about court cases.
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Matt Chorley
Court cases, exactly.
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Justin Webb
And we'll discuss that.
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Matt Chorley
And if Jimmy Kimmel left, he could probably find a platform to say what he wants to say.
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Justin Webb
I think he'll do. Okay.
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Matt Chorley
That brings us to the end of America. We've covered a lot of ground there. Marianna Springs, Sarah Smith, Justin Web and Anthony Zurcher. And of course, if you want to catch up with what else they're talking about, you can find America's wherever you listen to your podcast, including on BBC Sounds. We cannot mention that.
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Justin Webb
Right. We are off the air, as it were, off the live air with Matt Chorley. And Sarah has stayed behind as it were. She's in New York, as she told us right at the beginning, and I'm in a different studio now in Westminster. And it's an opportunity for us, Sarah, just to have a brief conversation between ourselves, I suppose, about not only the fallout from the killing of Charlie Kirk, but actually the memorial service itself, because you were there. It's been a few days now since it happened. There's been, my goodness, some discussion about it, to put it mildly. And it was an extraordinary event which we discussed at the time. Your thoughts now, a few days on.
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Sarah Smith
Well, I'm so glad that I took the time to actually go to the memorial service because this was an event the like of which I don't think I've ever been at before. And you know, I went to a lot of Donald Trump and MAGA rallies through the election campaign for about two years I was going to those things. This was bigger than any political rally I've ever seen. It was in the State Farm arena in Phoenix. That's where Taylor Swift kicked off her ERAS tour. And it was three times the size of the Republican National Convention. When you were there, Justin, to see that it was so much just on a wholly different scale. And people have been told not to come wearing somber, funereal black, but in red, white and blue outfits. So it was tremendously colorful as well as, you know, and people were there enjoying themselves in being part of this huge MAGA event. But, you know, obviously somberly reflecting on what had happened to Charlie Kirk, which gave it a very, very charged atmosphere. But I think the thing that surprised me the most about the mood of it was that everybody I spoke to there did think that this was a big turning point in American politics and not just because of the fear of violence being introduced into American politics. But they all said that from now on, as a result of Charlie Kirk's murder, they would no longer censor themselves when they wanted to express conservative views, no longer feel that if you agreed with Donald Trump, you had to keep quiet and not say things that weren't politically correct in case you upset somebody or got accused of being a racist or whatever. They clearly didn't think Donald Trump being reelected to the White House had given them permission to live out and speak out about their right wing views. But they did think that Charlie Kirk's murder was going to be a cultural turning point for them.
- [25:09]
Justin Webb
Yeah. And what Anthony and I were discussing this week, and I'd be interested in your view on this, having actually been there, is whether or not that kind of sense of, okay, this gives us political permission, as it were, to do something and we are going to use this politically and it's going to make a real difference. Does that carry through to 2026? Does it mean that there are going to be a load more really enthusiastic people going to the polls who might not have gone to the polls in the Republican cause, Of course, Donald Trump himself not on the ballot, but Republicans on the ballot everywhere and the House of Representatives very much in the balance when it comes to who wins. So, I mean, it's obviously too early to say in a way, but do you get the impression, I suppose the question is that this is a political moment that lasts.
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Sarah Smith
I think it certainly has the potential to. And Charlie Kirk's widow Erika, who's taken over his organization, Turning Point, obviously is a very charismatic figure who will be able to carry on the work. It certainly appears from the speech she gave at the memorial service and the number of young people that were there who were really excited and enthused about politics because they learned about it via Charlie Kirk was also quite striking, actually. Very articulate and well informed young people who would probably never have been interested in politics, they said, if they hadn't found Charlie Kirk now, if their excitement and enthusiasm can continue to be harnessed. And of course, you remember what it was like, like being young and idealistic and maybe about politics for the first time. If something like this, something as dramatic and as tragic as this happening, I think early in your political development, this martyr figure being created, that's bound to have a pretty deep impact, isn't it, on your politics and possibly do things, you know, that drive youngsters in their late teens, early 20s to the polls even in a midterm and election in a way that, you know, normal political arguments wouldn't. So I think it definitely has the potential with younger generations to really resonate for a very long time.
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Justin Webb
Right. You've got escalators to go and fix, haven't you, at the, at the UN So I'll let you go.
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Sarah Smith
I do got to make sure that teleprompter is working today. Bye, bye, bye.
- [27:33]
Podcast Announcer
Ameracast Ameracast from BBC News.
- [27:37]
Justin Webb
Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today. Ameracast, you are now officially an ameracaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. You have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480 we answer your questions every single week actually on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon, so until then, see you later. Bye. Foreign.
- [28:36]
Podcast Announcer
Welcome to the W Where legends are made and history is written. Under the brightest lights, the WNBA delivers non stop action and world class talent every single game. And now it all comes down to this. Will the New York Liberty defend their crown or will another team take the chip? This is where champions rise and legacies are defined. Watch the WNBA post season currently underway on ABC and espn. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of meaningful beauty. When Dr. Sabah and I decided to do a skincare line together, he said to me, we are going to give women meaningful beauty. And I said, that's exactly right. We want to give women meaningful beauty. Which means each and every product is meaningful. It has a reason to exist. It's efficacious. You're going to get results and then you just go out and live your life. Meaningful Beauty Confidence is beautiful. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com this message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card and the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com iheart that's greenlight.com iheart.
- [30:16]
Marianna Springs
America is changing.
- [30:19]
Sarah Smith
And so is the world.
- [30:21]
Matt Chorley
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [30:28]
Marianna Springs
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.
- [30:31]
Justin Webb
Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.
- [30:35]
Marianna Springs
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [30:41]
Matt Chorley
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.