Americanswers… on 5 Live! Could Trump have been evacuated from the shooting more quickly?

Summary

Americast: Americanswers… on 5 Live!

Episode Date: April 27, 2026
Main Theme:
This special Americast episode, broadcast on BBC Radio 5 Live, delves into the attempted shooting at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, where President Trump and other senior officials were present. The hosts take listener questions, discuss security protocols, address conspiracy theories, and explore the political, social, and international consequences of the event.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Evacuation of President Trump at the Shooting [01:27–03:39]

• Listener Claire's Question:
  • Observed in video that Trump was the last evacuated; inquiry about Secret Service protocol.
• Anthony Zurcher:
  • "The President is the most important person in the room, at least as far as the Secret Service is concerned. So why not take him away?... Donald Trump himself has explained that he was reluctant to leave. And, you know, it was a chaotic situation..." [02:31]
  • Security considerations: assailant was on a different floor, not just outside the room.
• Trump's Own Words (clip):
  • "I probably made them act a little bit more slow. They said, wait a minute, wait a minute, let me see. Wait a minute. So, you know, I'm telling guys, just..." [03:09]
  • Recounts how both he and Melania went down after being asked by Secret Service agents.
• Podcast Hosts:
  • Security was described as "absolute chaos" (Matt Chorley, [03:46]), with reports that the dinner venue (Hilton Hotel) had been lax in security despite the historical precedent of the Reagan assassination attempt.

2. Security Protocols and Weaknesses [03:39–06:30]

• Security layering around the ballroom exists, but hotel access is relatively open—guests and suspects can mingle freely.
• The suspected shooter reportedly stayed at the hotel for a few days with weapons; no extended security checks occurred.
• Anthony Zurcher:
  • "Now, the thing is that this did work... he got to the first security perimeter, ran through it, and was quickly stopped." [05:36]
  • Suggests future events will need even wider security perimeters.

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3. Heroism, Trauma, and Political Effects [07:00–09:35]

• Listener asks if Trump "deserves any credit for being brave."
• Hosts note past assassination scares (e.g., Trump’s ear clipped in Pennsylvania, 2024) have visibly affected him.
  • "Having bullets whizzing past your head... that will change you." (Anthony Zurcher, [07:37])
• Hosts consider possible political ramifications, such as increased turnout among Trump's traditionally supportive demographics.
• Matt Chorley:
  • Discusses legitimate political use of such events ("using it politically... is not an illegitimate thing to do" [08:26]) and wonders whether this could swing midterms.

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4. Conspiracy Theories and Public Suspicion [09:43–12:29, 23:43–29:42]

• Amanda (listener): Raises the question of repeated assassination attempts being "too convenient" for Trump and hints at conspiracy.
• Hosts acknowledge conspiracy theories are widespread; even "sensible" people suspect orchestration, e.g., to avoid journalists' awards, or as a political tool.
  • "I've had people texting me... this is too convenient to be true. But that's just a way of thinking..." (Matt Chorley, [10:27])
• Anthony Zurcher: Discusses the rise of "staged" narratives trending on social media.
  • "Stage trending as a term on social media... it's a natural response to something so mystifying as this..." [11:34]
  • Emphasizes Occam's Razor: single individual more likely than elaborate conspiracy.
• Further reflection ([23:43–29:42]):
  • Anthony: Suspicion has reached into the mainstream, not just fringe conspiracy theorists.
  • "These aren't people wearing tinfoil hats... there are people who are legitimately wondering..." [24:18]
  • Matt Chorley: U.S. political culture now accommodates engagement with conspiracy theories across the spectrum.
  • "We would have associated with the right in the past and we associate equally now with the left. They seem to have caught up..." [25:04]
  • Key social media stat: "Staged" appeared in 300,000 posts after the event. [28:24]
  • The attacker is alive and will stand trial—contrary to classic "cover-up" narratives (e.g., Kennedy/Ruby).

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5. Lone Actors vs. Organized Plots: Secret Service Capabilities [12:52–16:02]

• Listener Simon: Notes three recent "amateur" assassination attempts. Wonders about professional plots thwarted by the Secret Service.
• Anthony Zurcher:
  • Acknowledges that most attacks are from "lone wolf" actors who are almost impossible to predict or stop at public events.
  • "At some point, if the President is going to appear in public... it's hard to stop a single person who is willing to trade their life for the President..." [13:35]
  • Cites an example of disrupted Iranian plot, but notes professionals are rare and less visible than solo actors radicalized online.

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6. International Dimensions: Falklands & U.S. Foreign Policy [16:24–19:25]

• Greg (listener): Asks about Trump's interest in the Falkland Islands.
• Anthony Zurcher:
  • Suggests it's used as a diplomatic bargaining chip for oil interests and to pressure the UK on U.S. objectives (e.g., Iran).
  • "Donald Trump attempting to essentially rattle the British cages... to get them to be more accommodating..." [16:39]
  • Relationship with Argentina's president, Milei, noted ("Very matey indeed." [18:10])
• Matt Chorley: Highlights that much speculation is based on a leaked Pentagon memo.

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7. Economic Consequences: Strait Closures and U.S. Commodities [19:28–22:34]

• Richard (listener): Inquires about U.S. dependency on commodities (fertilizer, CO₂, helium) affected by Middle East turmoil.
• Anthony Zurcher:
  • U.S. is not self-sufficient in many key commodities.
  • "All of the other key resources coming out of the Gulf, they have a longer tail... farmers here in the country are having to do with less of it or not fertilize their crops as much. That ultimately is going to lead to lower crop yields, which is going to raise the price of food. But that all takes time." [20:33]
  • Political impact: Pressure on Trump as shortages begin to affect his electoral base in Iowa, Nebraska, etc.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Donald Trump (on Secret Service evacuation):
  "I probably made them act a little bit more slow. They said, wait a minute, wait a minute..." [03:09]
• Anthony Zurcher (on trauma):
  "Having bullets whizzing past your head... that will change you." [07:37]
• Matt Chorley (on conspiracy):
  "I've had people texting me... this is too convenient to be true. But that's just a way of thinking..." [10:27]
• Anthony Zurcher (on public suspicion):
  "These aren't people wearing tinfoil hats... there are people who are legitimately wondering how this could happen, why it happened the way it did..." [24:18]
• Matt Chorley (on political culture):
  "We would have associated with the right in the past and we associate equally now with the left..." [25:04]
• Social Media Signal:
  "300,000 posts using the word staged right after the event..." [28:24]
• On the attacker's fate:
  "The guy is going to appear in court later today... it's not wrapped up with a neat bow in any regards." (Anthony Zurcher, [29:08])

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Key Timestamps

• [01:27] — Listener question about Trump's evacuation
• [03:09] — Trump’s explanation of evacuation
• [05:36] — Security protocol insights
• [07:37] — Effects of prior assassination attempts on Trump
• [10:27] — Introduction of conspiracy theories
• [13:35] — Secret Service disruption of professional vs. lone attackers
• [16:39] — Trump and the Falkland Islands
• [20:33] — Economic impacts of commodity shortages
• [24:18] — Mainstreaming of conspiracy narratives
• [28:24] — Viral social media mentions of "staged"
• [29:08] — The shooter’s status and upcoming trial

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Takeaways

• Security at major political events is layered but not impenetrable, and public venues like hotels present persistent risks.
• Lone-wolf attackers present a uniquely difficult challenge to intelligence and law enforcement, which are adept at stopping plots but struggle with radicalized individuals.
• Conspiracy theories, once the preserve of the political fringe, now resonate with mainstream audiences across the spectrum, reflecting current epistemic anxieties.
• The Trump administration and its adversaries both see political possibilities in the fallout from such crises, with implications for security policy, election dynamics, and international relations (e.g., the Falklands, Iran).
• Economic shocks from Middle Eastern conflicts, especially commodity shortages, have not yet been felt fully in America but are expected to impact Trump's political calculus as they hit key constituencies.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode, responding directly to listener questions in classic Americast style, provides a comprehensive exploration of the security breach at a major Washington event, skeptical analysis of conspiratorial thinking, the interplay between trauma and bravado in presidential psychology, the global chess game of U.S. foreign policy, and the slow-rolling impact of economic warfare.
If you want sharp, candid, and frequently witty conversation on how a single shocking event ripples through politics, the public mind, and international relations, this episode is for you.

Transcript

[Justin Webb]

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[Kai Wright]

I'm Kai Wright.

[Carter Sherman]

I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.

[Kai Wright]

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[Carter Sherman]

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[Kai Wright]

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[Carter Sherman]

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[Matt Chorley]

What happened, what really happened at the White House correspondence Do the one where Donald Trump was meant to give a speech, a speech of course he never made because there were shots fired. What actually was going on are the conspiracy theories about it. And there are plenty of them even remotely possibly true. Welcome to America Answers with Matt Chorley and Anthony Zuercher and me, Justin Webb on On five Live.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Ameracast.

[Matt Chorley]

Ameracast from BBC News.

[Donald Trump]

You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money.

[Pete Hegseth]

We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.

[Carter Sherman]

This is a big cover up and

[Anthony Zuercher]

this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump derangement syndrome.

[Claire]

I have four words for you.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Turn the volume up.

[Justin Webb]

Well, it will come as no surprise at all that we've had lots of, lots of questions on the subject of the shooter. The White House Correspondent's Dinner on Saturday night where President Trump was in attendance Alongside Vice President J.D. vance, First Lady Melania Trump and many others from Trump's cabinet. Americast published an emergency episode on it last night, which I'm sure you've already listened to. If you haven't, it is there available for you now, we have had loads and loads of questions on this. Tim in Scotland, John in Kettering, all asking the same question as Claire in West Norfolk.

[Claire]

I'm just really interested in the attempted assassination of officials in the White House correspondence dinner because watching the videos I've seen, Trump was actually the last person they seemed to go to. They got J.D. vance out quicker and then Trump seemed to stay in his seat and then had to be sort of forced from his seat and then it looks like he fell over. And I'm just curious about this because wouldn't the first thing you do is go to the President?

[Justin Webb]

Anthony, from what you've seen of it, what did you make of what went on?

[Anthony Zuercher]

Yeah, I mean, that would be the logic, right. The President is the most important person in the room, at least as far as the Secret Service is concerned. So why not take him away? Although Donald Trump himself has explained that he was reluctant to leave. And, you know, it was a chaotic situation, you have to remember that also that the assailant was a floor up, that people in the room could hear the gunshots, but it wasn't right outside the door. So that might have changed the thinking from the Secret Service as well.

[Justin Webb]

We've actually got Donald Trump's own explanation where he was speaking to Norah O' Donnell from CBS 60 Minutes about being evacuated by the Secret Service.

[Donald Trump]

I was surrounded by great people, and I probably made them act a little bit more slow. They said, wait a minute, wait a minute, let me see. Wait a minute. So, you know, I'm telling guys, just

[Anthony Zuercher]

at that moment where it looks like you go sort of down with the

[Matt Chorley]

service, you were telling them to wait.

[Donald Trump]

No, what happened is then I started walking with them. I turned, I started walking and then said, please go down. Please go down on the floor. So I went down, and first lady went down also. But we were asked to go down by the agents.

[Justin Webb]

One of the striking things Justin was listening to people who were at the dinner was how they'd spent the evening standing around discussing how lax the security was.

[Matt Chorley]

I agree with the question. I mean, it was absolute chaos. Look, a bit. I also wasn't there, though I've been to plenty of them in the past, and they are a bit chaotic and that's the way they've always been run. But I don't think anyone's ever thought of them as being much of a threat, which is odd because as we were saying in our emergency episode, just in case you haven't listened to it, this Hilton hotel that it's held in is the Hilton Hotel outside which there was very nearly a successful attempt on Ronald Reagan's life. It is somewhere where there has been political violence before. But, yeah, everyone describes going in and coming out, and obviously the guy who is the chief suspect, only suspect, actually, apparently stayed in a room there for a day or two with all his weapons, including knives that he'd just brought into the hotel. Nobody thought to check. And the whole business, I don't know what Anthony thinks of this. When they go to Congress, they have the State of the Union and they're all there, all the bigwigs are there. They have a designated survivor. So someone isn't allowed to go because if everyone's wiped out, it was a series. That person. Yeah, there was a series, wasn't there?

[Anthony Zuercher]

Right.

[Matt Chorley]

So, Anthony, are we aware that there was a survivor this time? Around, because I've not seen seen anything about him or her.

[Anthony Zuercher]

There were a lot of Cabinet officials there, but all of them weren't there. And at the State of the Union, almost all of them attend. So they have to make sure that there is one who stayed behind. But I don't think that there was that kind of contingency planning put into effect. Maybe there should have been, because there is such a concentration of senior members of a presidential administration in one place, and not in the US Congress that has multiple layers of security, but in a hotel in Washington, D.C. that isn't even totally locked down. I mean, I wasn't there Saturday night, so I'm not sure, you know, what the security procedures were like. But having been there almost every year for the past five or six years, I'll say that they do have multiple layers of security around the ballroom. But as Justin points out, the hotel itself is still open to the public, and you can get a room there and stay. And actually, when you are coming in to head down to the security cordon, you could walk by a bar where there are guests who are staying at the hotel or hanging out. And apparently the alleged assailant also was milling around there at some point in the days he was staying there. Now, the thing is that this did work. I mean, he got to the first security perimeter, ran through it, and was quickly stopped. So it wasn't like he burst into the ballroom. That was still a floor and multiple checkpoints away. So the security the way it was designed. But I think now there's going to be some rethinking about whether you need to expand the cordon more in order to make it even more secure so that it doesn't get as close as he did get.

[Justin Webb]

Mike's just texted in saying, luckily it was only one terrorist staying at the hotel. What if it been a group of them and that.

[Matt Chorley]

Well, exactly, and that's what a lot of people are saying, a group of them. And what have they been better armed and more organized, et cetera. And in the wake of the Brighton bomb, I know it was a long time ago, and I know Americans don't traditionally sort of look outside the country for examples of how to behave, but the fact is we have a blueprint for how it is done. When the IRA planted that bomb in Brighton and did so with enormous planning beforehand, they didn't carry it in that night.

[Justin Webb]

And party conferences here, you know, the hotels where the leaders stay and the Cabinet stays, is inside a court. And you have to, you know, everyone has to go through security. That was interesting. Jeffrey says. Dear Maricas, do you think Trump deserves any credit for being brave in the face of these constant assassination attempts, or do you dismiss his bravado? Actually, the thing that strikes me, Anthony, is that particularly when he talked about the one last year, or is it last year or the year before now where it clipped his ear, I mean, that seemed to really, actually affect him quite a lot in that conversation with our colleague Gary, although obviously he is a man with quite a lot of bravado on this. It does seem to affect him, as you would expect.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Yeah, I mean, that was obviously the bullet or shrapnel nicked his ear. I mean, there was a person with a long gun who was easily within range of hitting him. So it was a narrow escape in that instance. This is a little bit different. But having that, having bullets whizzing past your head, which is exactly what happened in Butler, Pennsylvania in July of 2024, that will change you. I don't think anyone can go through that kind of experience and not be somewhat reflective of their own mortality. Whether it has had a long term change on Donald Trump's personality or whether this incident itself will bring back those memories for Donald Trump and trigger some sort of a changed outlook, we haven't seen that happen in the past. For all the talk of cooling rhetoric and coming together, it doesn't take long before this nation is right back to its partisan divisions.

[Matt Chorley]

It's also interesting to see whether it has a political effect, which it's too early to tell, but might it? We've got these midterms coming up. We've been saying for ages that the Democrats are very likely to win back. The House of Representatives could even win the Senate this time around, which we didn't think a year or so ago. Now, if you think it's The Senate, maybe 10 or 20,000 people in Texas where there's important Senate race, think, oh, you know what, I wasn't going to bother voting, but I think I will actually. Particularly Hispanic people who in the past admired Trump, sort of macho image, et cetera, et cetera, particularly Hispanic men, maybe post this because he was a bit cool, wasn't he, at the press conference that he gave afterwards when he was giving all those weird percentages about the likelihood that a president, although that should be said, no president has been shot. I mean, let's hope it doesn't happen. No president has been shot since Kennedy, but. And they've been shot at a lot. And I suppose he himself was winged and Reagan obviously was potentially very seriously injured though he recovered from it. But you've got this kind of sense I suppose of him using it politically, which is not an illegitimate thing to do actually within the American political system. But I don't know this time around whether it will or not.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, interesting. Let's look at another aspect of it. We've got Amanda who lives in Devon but is currently in the far north of Scotland. Hello, Amanda.

[Amanda]

Hello.

[Carter Sherman]

Hello.

[Justin Webb]

Why are you on the run? What are you doing in the far north of Scotland?

[Amanda]

I'm on holiday.

[Justin Webb]

Very good, very good. What is your question?

[Amanda]

So how suspicious are people? Is it getting some traction that this is the third one now and it might be very convenient for Donald Trump to have had last night's Saturday night's event cancelled because of the awards going to journalists, journalists who uncovered the Epstein scandal and that he can now bang on about his big beautiful ballroom and how important that's going to be. It just, I don't know how it would work but it seems a bit too convenient. On the other hand, the man was armed with knives and so on. So I'm interested in your thoughts.

[Justin Webb]

I've seen similar things, conspiracy theories and so on. It's a set up and all of that.

[Matt Chorley]

And I've had people texting me, I mean quite sensible people, people, you know, American supporters, roughly speaking of the Democrats who've said, you know, this is, this is too convenient to be true. But actually that's just a way of thinking, isn't it, that when you actually think about it, it's a bit crazy because this guy, I mean they would have to heavily arm him. He went by train. Weirdly, I mean, I say weirdly in the American context. There's very few people go by train from Los Angeles to Washington and that's an arrestable offense in itself, isn't it Anthony? How long would that take? I don't know, it just. He did everything. That would be an odd thing to do. And then of course they don't kill him. I mean it seems to me if you're gonna go down the conspiracy road then you'd want him dead. And they didn't even land a shot on him.

[Anthony Zuercher]

He shot a Secret service agent wearing a bulletproof vest, which I'm actually, I'm amazed that they didn't kill him because an armed man charging through shooting people. Yeah, that does, that is kind of strange as well.

[Matt Chorley]

So are you going full conspiracy theory then? This is the place to do.

[Anthony Zuercher]

You know, I have seen, you know, putting on my Mariana hat I have seen stage trending as a term on social media. And so clearly, Amanda's not alone in having these questions. I think it's a natural response to something so mystifying as this that a schoolteacher from California would go through all of this trouble. He drove or took the train cross country, I guess, so he could bring weapons. He can't obviously, check them on a plane. And to get all the way here and to do this is just. It defies logic. And so you start reaching for some sort of an explanation as to why and thinking, well, you know, there could be ulterior motives or conspiracies. That sort of thing is one thing you can grasp. But the reality is that conspiracies are usually much more complicated than, you know, the simple explanations that this was one person who decided, for whatever reason, to try to take things into his own hands.

[Matt Chorley]

If he's pardoned. If he's pardoned. And I'm going down this road.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Okay.

[Justin Webb]

But I suppose also it's a. It's a reflection of our times. And actually, it's at times that Donald Trump has fueled spotting his own conspiracies and things. That's where people's minds end up going to. It's a great question. Imagine you've touched on something there, and it turns out we don't need Mariana. We can just speak to Anthony's imaginary friends instead. Thank you for that, Amanda. Let's go to Simon now. Is Simon on the line?

[Simon]

Yes, I am.

[Justin Webb]

What is your question, please, Simon?

[Simon]

Right. Okay. I just noticed in the last couple of years, there have been three assassination attempts on the US President or by amateurs, by which I mean lone gunmen rather than people in a conspiracy. So I was wondering, how many attempts from professionals has the Secret Service managed to disrupt? And if the amateurs are making such a good job of it, doesn't it mean that the Secret Service are looking in the wrong place?

[Justin Webb]

It's an interesting question. Do they. Do they sort of reveal the ones that they've stopped?

[Anthony Zuercher]

Yeah, and they have. There was a case against an Iranian intelligence agents earlier this year who came to the United States allegedly to arrange for political assassinations of. Of American leaders that was foiled by American intelligence. So there are instances where they haven't covered what they view as possible conspiracies to commit violence. But you're right, the ones that get through, the ones that are making the headlines are lone wolf kind of things, single gunmen who are taking things into their own hands. And I don't know, at some point, if the President is going to appear in public or near public, it's hard to stop a single person who is willing to trade their life for the President from at least disrupting an event. But I think maybe we're lucky and talking about the IRA before the United States is lucky that we haven't had these kind of organized assassination attempts by professionals, as you say, and knock wood now that we don't ever get to the point where one of those becomes much closer to reality.

[Justin Webb]

I mean, there's been a lot of focus on this here in the UK as well, Justin. The shift from organized. The thing about the ira, they were successful in lots of times, but they're also, you know, they could put agents in and they could try and stop those things. And we saw that with Islamist extremism as well, when there were cells and there were groups and there were weaknesses. But if it's one person radicalized online, it's incredibly hard to break that. And that's something that the security service here have talked about.

[Matt Chorley]

Yeah. And I mean, it's obviously a problem in the States, and particularly is a big problem in the States, has been domestic terrorism, really. And that has been the way it has gone. It's quite difficult. You think of 911 being the great exception to the general rule that actually it's quite difficult to infiltrate people into the States and organize it all in a way that works. I'm sure people have tried in the past, but unsuccessfully, generally speaking. And that is possibly testament to the ability of the various security services to protect the States. But I think it's also just a difficult thing to do, partly because of the geography of the place. That's a weird thing about America, isn't it? When you think about it? It is. It is well protected by the sea. And yes, there is all sorts of scare stories about people coming across from Canada or infiltrating their way in from Mexico and you don't know who they are, et cetera, et cetera. But actually it's never really led to anything properly organized.

[Justin Webb]

But then you've also got guns and the accessibility to guns. So if you've got an individual who's radicalised and then access to guns, then that's different as well. It's a great question. Thank you for that, Simon. Let's move on because we've got so many. I want to try and get through as many as we can. Greg in Glasgow, who was at the AmericasT Live event at the weekend. Nice for you, Greg. Nice for you to be invited Greg asks, what business does Trump have with the Falkland Islands?

[Matt Chorley]

Oh, yeah, well, this was an interesting one because Anthony told me something I didn't really know about that, so we better let him answer this. I hadn't realized that there's real Trump interest in the oil or the potential oil being pumped out of the Falklands, but Anthony thinks there is.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Well, that's one theory certainly, for why Donald Trump apparently, and people in his administration have brought up the folklore Falkland Islands in regard to the territorial claims that Argentina have made on it and possibly calling into question British sovereignty on the islands going forward. And my theory that I told Justin on the stage during our Americast record, is that this was Donald Trump attempting to essentially rattle the British cages, make threats about things in order to get them to be more accommodating on supporting the US effort in the Iran war. Well, if you're not going to cooperate with us, well, then maybe we'll reopen the whole Falklands island territorial issue. And Trump, you know, he lived through the 70s and 80s, he remembers the Falkland wars, he knows how important it is to Great Britain, and so he's just going to try to throw that out there, chuck a bomb into the middle of this and see if he can get a reaction.

[Matt Chorley]

Yeah, but it's worth saying that all of this, we're talking about this because there's this kind of behind the scenes thing, wasn't there where it wasn't. Yeah, it was a leaked Pentagon memo, which who knows who wrote it and in what capacity it was written. And they also suggested chucking Spain out of NATO, which I think would be probably more complicated than just doing it by memo overnight. There you go.

[Justin Webb]

But then I suppose that there's also the risk, once that is out there in the public, and if, if Trump in public starts sounding a bit more lukewarm that, you know, does Argentina think,

[Matt Chorley]

well, he's very matey with Javier Milei, the boss in Argentina, isn't he? Very matey indeed. Although, again, I'm not sure Javier Milei particularly wants to have a. Well, it wouldn't be much of a battle now, I guess, would it necessarily, but doesn't particularly want to re engage the whole business of the Falklands. There's no particular suggestion from him. And they still claim sovereignty, I think it's worth saying, but nothing more than that. So I don't know. I mean, it's interesting, as Anthony says, there's oil, Anthony's obviously spotted it, possibly invest it.

[Justin Webb]

Anthony, it struck me the, with the King going, you know, The King, we're told, was instrumental in getting the President to stop talking about Canada as the 51st state. He was told that the King did not like that and he seemed to stop doing it. So maybe the King can have a quiet word about the Falklands.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Maybe. It seems like there's a lot on the King's plate in these conversations with Donald Trump behind the scenes mostly, but he has got a, he's got a lot of work to do to, to mend, mend the relations. But as, as Donald Trump himself told our colleague Sarah in that phone conversation they had that week last week, Donald Trump does seem to maybe this would be a good step. He has a lot of respect for the King and if the King handles this diplomatically, which he I think he is more than able to do, maybe this will end up in a better place than we were just a few weeks ago.

[Matt Chorley]

Yeah, maybe we'll gain territory, not lose it.

[Justin Webb]

Anyway, you've got your eye on do you want Greenland? I know that would put us in an awkward position if they offered us Greenland. Let's finish off. We've got a question finally from Richard Piper who's emailed said I've heard very little as the consequence of the closure of the straight of all moves on the price and availability of a cross commodities away from oil and gas. Is this because the US is self sufficient in fertiliser, CO2, helium and other supplies that most of the rest of the world sources in the Middle East? Or is it that people think the US has adequate stocks to tide them over until this short lived war is over? And in fact before we answer that we've got this is Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth. It was asked about cooperation with Europe at the Pentagon last Friday.

[Kai Wright]

Have any European countries reached out to assist in cordoning off the strait and participating in escorts?

[Pete Hegseth]

I know there's a lot of talks. You saw the, I would call it a silly conference in Europe last week where they got together and talked about talking about maybe doing something eventually when things are done. Those are not serious efforts yet.

[Justin Webb]

So Anthony, are people in America talking about those other things, fertiliser, CO2, helium and all of that?

[Anthony Zuercher]

They are and we are not self sufficient on that. We are as dependent on exports from the Persian Gulf and Arab countries as much of the world as I think the thing is that it takes longer for that to filter into the economy than the price of oil because very quickly you see if the price of oil goes up, the cost of a gallon at the petrol station spikes Rather quickly. All of the other ingredients, all the other key resources coming out of the Gulf, they, they have a longer tail. So things like nitrogen, which is used in fertilizer, which is used in crops that is getting more expensive. Farmers here, and there have been reports on this, farmers here in the country are having to do with less of it or not fertilize their crops as much. That ultimately is going to lead to lower crop yields, which is going to raise the price of food. But that all takes, that all takes time. So we're going to get there. Clearly, this is going to be a crisis. And you're seeing stories about the rising number of bankruptcies among small farmers in this country. And that can be attributed to what's going on in the Gulf and with Iran, it's just, it's going to take a little longer for the country as a whole to feel it.

[Justin Webb]

Is there a tipping point, though, where Donald Trump starts worrying about that more than he's worrying about Iran?

[Anthony Zuercher]

I think there could be. I mean, he is very sensitive to middle America and to farmers. He always talks about how farmers are his, his best friends and most, most loyal supporters. And he's going to start hearing it more and more now from people in places like Iowa and in the Nebraska that are depending on this and they are going to start making their displeasure felt with this president. And I think that may be one of the reasons why he is seems to be reluctant to restart the military campaign here during the cease fire and seems to be so eager to try to find some way to walk this down because it is going to hit him in his base. And the closer we get to the midterm elections, there is a Senate race in Iowa that in theory could go to the Democrats if things get bad enough.

[Matt Chorley]

Yeah. But that then leads to the question, does he care? Which we have sort of vaguely touched on, haven't we, Anthony, in various editions of the book? Because frankly, we don't know. Nobody knows. But it's an interesting thought, actually. And maybe he's just, he's had it with the party and really, Kay, he's obviously not on the ballot himself in the midterm elections. Perhaps he doesn't mind if he loses at least the House. I think he should mind if he loses the Senate because he sort of loses everything. And as Anthony has explained over and over again, the whole thing thing then becomes another hunt, the Trump game in town, which I don't think necessarily leads to the Democrats winning in 28, the next presidential election.

[Justin Webb]

In fact, the more they go down that road.

[Matt Chorley]

The more they go down that road, the more people think, oh, for goodness sake, isn't there other stuff to be done? So there are many levels at which this could play out. But I think one of the big things for Trump, one of the big questions about Trump is is he looking now for a legacy that just doesn't involve the midterms and anything as petty as Republicans winning congressional seats?

[Justin Webb]

Well, I suppose it's one of those things where he doesn't care until he does care, and then we'll all know about it.

[Matt Chorley]

Right Here we come off the air now on five Live with Matt Chorley and Matt Hasgam. But Anthony is still with me. And Anthony, it just occurs to me actually there's a little bit more to be said about this conspiracy theory stuff, isn't there? Because it's not just that it is a conspiracy theory and it is that somehow this was all a put up job and possibly previous assassination attempts have been put up jobs. But it's worth really stressing that it's kind of got into almost the Democratic mainstream, or am I putting it too hard there?

[Anthony Zuercher]

Well, I think these aren't people wearing tinfoil hats and they're not going out and meeting with other people to come up with these vast kind of ideas about a cabal that is staging these things. But I think there are people who are legitimately wondering how this could happen, why it happened the way it did, and concerns that this might be used by Donald Trump to advance his agenda, that he gets some sort of a political benefit out of this, as we discussed earlier. And that has them worried and that has them thinking of some sort of grander scheme at play here. It's human nature to some extent, but it also is kind of triggered by the circumstances, specific circumstances in this case.

[Matt Chorley]

But it tells you something about American politics, doesn't it, that there are relatively serious people who are willing to engage even if they don't fully believe it. Because it is, when you think about what would have to happen, it is pretty unbelievable. But even when they don't fully believe it themselves, that it's now something that you sort of engage in as if it might be reality. And anything that might be reality somehow is, we really need Marianna here actually, don't we? Do. But I mean, it's Marianna's world and as she often tells us, we are living in it, or you're living in it. It's that sort of epistemic comfort, isn't it, where your theory of what might or might not be true of knowledge is not challenged. And we live in a world in which, psychologically, politically, we don't seem to want to be challenged with things that are outside our comfort zone. And that's very much the way that the states is at the moment. Plus, it's worth saying, isn't it, that a lot of these things we would have associated with the right in the past and we associate equally now with the left. They seem to have caught up, in a sense, with the comfort, with conspiracy theories and also, frankly, some of the nastiness, too.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Right. And to wrap your head around the idea that, like I said earlier, that this is a schoolteacher from California, someone who went to no Kings rallies, someone who posted on Blue sky and social media, kind of this, who followed people there and posted things that were, you know, not the. The ravings of a madman, but very similar to the sorts of sentiments that many people on the left had. But this person felt compelled, based on his conclusions about the dire state of politics in this country, that he needed to take things into his own hands and not just stumble it off the street from his own neighborhood, but to travel all the way across the country with weapons and book a room at the hotel and do all of this and then ultimately just kind of run haphazardly through a security checkpoint. But. But that all of this happened, it's difficult for people to come to grips with. And that is why I think they're reaching for some sort of a cleaner explanation for all of this, that it's all staged. And I will also say that, you know, the Trump administration, they are trying to use this to their own kind of policy advantage. We're already hearing Donald Trump and other people in the White House talk about this incident as justification for things that they want to do, whether it's funding the Department of Homeland Security or reauthorizing this Foreign Intelligence Surveillance act that would allow warrantless surveillance of government, surveillance of foreign communications, and perhaps most improbably, the funding the construction of Donald Trump's much beloved ballroom where he tore down the east Wing of the White House. And right now it's been mired in legal battles. But he says that this is, and it's not just him. There are plenty of people, Republicans, who are saying that this is a clear reason why this massive ballroom needs to be built so they can have it within the White House compound and don't have to worry about exposing the president to potential assassination attempts in a hotel in downtown D.C. yeah.

[Matt Chorley]

So there you are. So that's why staged, as you were saying, you were mentioning to Matt Chorley, weren't you? That word staged hugely appearing on x 300,000 posts using the word staged right after the event or set of events. One of the most shared posts online on Saturday night and on Sunday claims that the attacker had been shot and killed. And that of course, you know, if you were going to go down the conspiracy route, that would be part of it. I suppose they just get rid of him and get rid of any evidence about him. But of course that itself we know factually is not true. The guy is alive. In fact he wasn't even shot, as you pointed out, Anthony, which itself is weird, but it doesn't seem to me to point in the direction that it was somehow a put up job, right?

[Anthony Zuercher]

This isn't Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby. I mean all of that was very, very suspicious. The rounds of killings of the people involved with the Kennedy assassination here. The guy is going to appear in court later today and he would imagine have a chance to speak in court and to defend himself. And who knows, you know, how that trial could ultimately unfold, but it's not wrapped up with a. With a neat bow in any regards.

[Matt Chorley]

We're not natural conspiracists, are we Anthony? Maybe we're just behind the times.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Maybe we don't live in conspiracy land. We only visit Mariana while she's there.

[Matt Chorley]

Righty ho, Anthony. That then for the time being is it? Although who knows when we will be back with some sort of emergency episode. But for the time being, bye bye for now.

[Anthony Zuercher]

Bye all.

[Matt Chorley]

Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-9480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time, bye.

[Kai Wright]

I'm Kai Wright.

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[Kai Wright]

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[Carter Sherman]

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[Kai Wright]

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