Americanswers… On 5 Live! Do the new Epstein files "absolve" Trump?

Summary

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Americast – "Americanswers… On 5 Live! Do the new Epstein files 'absolve' Trump?"

BBC News • February 2, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode of Americast, the hosts answer audience questions about the latest revelations from the Jeffrey Epstein files and what their release means for US politics—especially for Donald Trump, who claims the documents "absolve" him. The team also unpacks the impact of celebrity activism at the Grammys (notably anti-ICE sentiments), viral protest movements among US quilters, and the political fallout for those connected to Epstein. The episode features BBC correspondents Justin Webb, Sarah Smith, Anthony Zurcher, Mariana Mazzucato (producer/commentator), and Matt Chorley (Five Live).

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Key Topics and Insights

1. The Latest Epstein Files: Legal and Political Fallout

Release of Documents and Prosecutions

• Justice Department's Role: The DOJ says this latest tranche (over 3 million documents) marks the end of its review, though Democrats and survivors argue many critical documents remain undisclosed.
  • "This was pretty much the last big batch and there wasn't going to be much else disclosed." – Anthony Zurcher [02:55]
• Ongoing Investigations: Some investigations are said to be opened into Democrats (e.g., Bill Clinton), but these appear politically motivated and nothing concrete has emerged.
  • "We haven't seen a whole lot aside from this one that they seem to be looking into, which clearly does have a political tinge to it." – Anthony Zurcher [02:55]

Why Is There No Prosecution?

• There remains a lack of prosecutable evidence—even with political embarrassment for some individuals, no "smoking gun" has been found for criminal charges.
  • "As of right now, there is no legal process for further prosecutions that we know of." – Anthony Zurcher [04:00]
• Victims and advocates are frustrated, wanting more action and clarity.
  • "There was real abuse going on. There's no question about that. And no prosecutions ... What's going on?" – Justin Webb [06:50]

Focus on Notable Figures

• British figures (Prince Andrew/Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Lord Mandelson) face more severe reputational damage from the files than any Americans so far.
  • "Nothing is quite as damaging as it is about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor or Peter Mandelson." – Sarah Smith [05:29]
• Even with new correspondence showing ongoing ties (e.g., Elon Musk), no direct implication in crimes has been found.
  • Elon Musk is scrutinized for email exchanges but insists, "I never went to a party. I wasn't on the plane. You know, I'm not implicated..." – Paraphrased from Mariana Mazzucato [09:04]

Victims' Anger Over Redactions

• Major errors occurred with the release—including identifying information and even naked photos of victims not being properly redacted.
  • "Some of the victims are absolutely furious ... even naked pictures have been published of people as well without their identities being redacted." – Sarah Smith [23:06]
• Lawyers for the victims released a joint statement expressing anger: “The men who abused us remain hidden and protected.” – Quoted by Justin Webb [25:31]

Claims of Withheld Documents

• Democrats claim key files (victim statements, draft indictments, financial records) are missing; the DOJ insists nearly everything is out.
  • "There are things that are not included here that they were looking for: victim interview statements, a draft indictment ... prosecutorial memorandum..." – Anthony Zurcher [24:25]

Political (Non-)Impact for Trump

• Trump’s claim to be “absolved” hasn't convinced many, as neither embarrassing revelations about him nor evidence of a coverup has emerged.
  • "It hasn't produced anything monstrously embarrassing about him ... What we don't know is that there ever was any information ... that could have led to prosecutions." – Sarah Smith [26:25]
• MAGA supporters, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, now frame the lack of new revelations as evidence of a broader "uniparty" conspiracy.
  • "The Epstein files are proving it's all one big repulsive club no matter which party is in charge." – Summarized by Justin Webb [29:54]

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2. Showbiz & Political Activism at the Grammys

Highlights from the Awards

• Grammy artists (e.g., SZA, Billie Eilish, Bad Bunny) denounced Trump, ICE, and anti-immigrant policies on stage.
  • Bad Bunny: "Before I say thanks to God, I'm gonna say eyes out. We're not savage, we're not animals, we're not aliens." – Bad Bunny [10:41]
  • Billie Eilish: "Nobody's illegal on stolen land." – Read by Ian on Discord [11:22]
• The team debates whether these statements help causes or turn off mainstream Americans:
  • "I can't think of anything since Defund the Police that is less likely to appeal to most mainstream Americans..." – Justin Webb [12:03]
  • "When celebrities ... speak out ... it actually completely turns people off who think, hang on a second, you don't really speak for me." – Mariana Mazzucato [13:19]

Celebrity Endorsement: Does It Move the Needle?

• Evidence suggests star interventions rarely sway voters—"Americans vote for reasons that are personal and they don't typically vote because someone ... tells them this is the way they should vote." – Anthony Zurcher [14:25]
• Nicki Minaj’s pro-Trump stance ("I am probably the President's number one fan ... that's not going to change." – Nicki Minaj [17:09]) exemplifies complex and sometimes contradictory celebrity politics.

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3. Social Media and the Quilter Protest Movement

Quilters as Protestors

• Question from Alison in North Norfolk: US quilting/crafting feeds are dominated by protest content about Minneapolis and immigration.
• Mariana Mazzucato explains this is an example of grassroots protest, with social media algorithms amplifying activism:
  • "It shows ... wider discontent that ... people who aren't usually very engaged necessarily in politics ... are actually then making that content political." – Mariana Mazzucato [19:40]
• Sarah Smith adds context: “Craft-based activism” is thriving—e.g., red woolen hats modeled after Norwegian WWII resistance headgear are made/sold to benefit migrants.
  • "This is a fascinating thing that's going on in Minneapolis. Apparently, it's also craft-based activism ... rather like the pussy hats..." – Sarah Smith [21:31]

Algorithm and Outreach Implications

• Activist content is spilling out of expected circles, reaching those not otherwise politically invested—a litmus test for whether an issue is reaching mass concern.

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4. The Cultural and Political Ramifications

Why Do American Figures Escape Greater Fallout?

• While British figures are severely penalized, Americans involved with Epstein (e.g., Bill Clinton, Howard Lutnick) face limited consequences.
  • "There hasn't been the kind of big name, you're right ... there are Americans who have paid a political and professional price for their connections ... but it hasn't been the same." – Anthony Zurcher [30:45]
• Cultural differences may explain why reputations recover more easily in the US.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "There are just allegations, and some of them are outrageous. But they're in there, and the FBI had them. Whether they followed up to investigate or not ... that is not the basis for a prosecution." – Anthony Zurcher [08:04]
• "As of right now, there is no legal process for further prosecutions that we know of." – Anthony Zurcher [04:00]
• "There was real abuse going on ... And no prosecutions. And I think that's for a lot of Americans ... Why? What's going on?" – Justin Webb [06:50]
• "It hasn't produced anything monstrously embarrassing about him ... but just because we have seen now most of this information ... doesn't mean there ever was going to be a smoking gun in there." – Sarah Smith [26:25]
• "The Epstein files are proving it's all one big repulsive club no matter which party is in charge." – Attributed by Justin Webb to Marjorie Taylor Greene [29:54]
• "I can't think of anything since Defund the Police that is less likely to appeal to most mainstream Americans ... than 'nobody's illegal on stolen land.'" – Justin Webb [12:03]
• "When celebrities ... speak out about these issues ... it actually completely turns people off ... you don't really speak for me." – Mariana Mazzucato [13:19]
• "This is a fascinating thing that's going on in Minneapolis. Apparently, it's also craft-based activism ... Norwegian red tassel hats are the next big thing ..." – Sarah Smith [21:31]

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Segment Guide (Timestamps)

• Epstein files fallout & legal prospects: [02:29] – [09:04], resumes [22:30]
• Showbiz & the Grammys anti-ICE protests: [10:14] – [18:36]
• Quilter/crafter activism & algorithm insight: [18:41] – [21:31]
• Redaction errors and DOJ criticism: [23:06] – [25:31]
• Missing documents & political implications: [25:31] – [29:54]
• Cultural contrast: UK vs US on accountability: [29:54] – [31:55]

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Tone and Style

The hosts maintain a lively, conversational tone—mixing sharp analysis (especially around DOJ and legal technicalities) with personal, often humorous asides (e.g., quips about Bad Bunny, celebrity endorsements, and meme culture). They’re empathetic towards victims, sharply skeptical about political claims, and incisive about how social media movements reveal the cultural mood.

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Summary

This episode examines the completion of Epstein file releases and finds that—despite massive disclosures and political theatre—no new prosecutions are likely and Trump’s claim of “absolution” rings hollow for both supporters and critics. The team breaks down how outrage is spreading through both celebrity interventions and more organic protest movements (like quilting activists), reflecting a national mood of mistrust and dissatisfaction with elites. The American tendency to move on from scandal—versus the UK’s harsher public reckoning—adds a final comparative flourish to this searching, highly relevant analysis of scandals, activism, and the culture-driving US politics in 2026.

Transcript

[Justin Webb]

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[Mariana Mazzucato]

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[Anthony Zurcher]

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[Justin Webb]

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[Justin Webb]

All right then, where are we now with the Epstein files? We've had the latest tranche released on Friday, a huge amount of documentation. Donald Trump says he is absolved by it. The Department of Justice say it is the end of their review process. Survivors though of Epstein's abuse and many Democrats are not satisfied. They say millions of these documents may still be withheld and that questions, possibly questions about the president himself, have not been properly answered. So Sarah, Anthony, Marianna and I join Matt Shawley to answer your questions. I should say we also talked about other things as well, including Donald Trump threatening legal action after last night's Grammys with celebrities speaking out against him and against immigration enforcement. Also Quilters on social media. What influence do they have? All will be explained. Welcome to America answers on Five Live.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

AmeriCast AmeriCast from BBC News, when Donald.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Trump calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Happy to lick your boot, sir.

[Anthony Zurcher]

We are the sickest country in the world.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Oh dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

[Matt Chorley]

Let's dive in to the first question Nadia has emailed. I'd like to know what the next stage is in the Epstein saga after the horrific new emails etc were released on 30 January. Will anyone be prosecuted? Anthony, first of all, I suppose in terms of the actual procedural next step, what sort of formal investigations are ongoing in the United States. Now all these files are in the public.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Well, the administration has directed the Justice Department to investigate some of the Democratic politicians who were tied to the Epstein files. That includes Bill Clinton and some Democratic donors. Now, we haven't heard anything about these investigations. It was just something that was announced by Pam Bondi, the Attorney General. I mean, beyond that, we don't really know what else could come from this. Now when they released this latest batch of more than 3 million documents, they, the Justice Department said this was pretty much the last big batch and there wasn't going to be much else disclosed. So as far as ongoing investigations, we haven't, we haven't seen a whole lot aside from this one that, that they seem to be looking into, which clearly does have a political tinge to it.

[Matt Chorley]

So then what happens? Like further, the big question is, well, what, you know, what happens in terms of prosecutions? Can there be, would there be, would you expect them to? Or is this all actually being played out in the sort of the court of public opinion?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, I think it's much more that as far as prosecutions go, people keep calling for prosecutions. There are members of Congress, the ones who were behind the law that forced this mass disclosure of Epstein, documents that want to see more FBI files, like a drafted charging document that might have been put forward originally for Epstein before he had that plea deal in the early 2000s, to see what sort of details there are in that, whether there are any other co conspirators or people who worked with Epstein either in the financial industry or personal contacts who might have aided him in this underage sex trafficking ring. But there hasn't been any smoking gun revelations in the documents that have come out so far that point towards a prosecution for anyone in Epstein's circle. And if there's still documents yet to be revealed, and the Justice Department says there aren't nothing left out there that isn't being protected because of victims information and the like, then we haven't seen it. And at this point now it is a waiting game to see if anything else breaks out. But as of right now, there is no legal process for further prosecutions that we know of.

[Matt Chorley]

And Sarah, clearly all the focus of the UK has been on, well, Prince Andrew as he then was, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and now Peter Mandelson. What is the focus or even the American attention on these files?

[Sarah Smith]

Those two are featuring very, very prominently in the coverage because there's probably more damaging material about them than any other particularly well known people. There are some people who claimed that they had had no contacts with Epstein or had broken them off, who it's clear were contin to either socialize with him or deal with him long after his first conviction for sex abuse. Including Elon Musk and the current Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, who've got communications about wanting to visit him on his island. But nothing is quite as damaging as it is about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor or Peter Mandelson. And as a result, I think one of the really big unanswered questions about this is if there is not the kind of smoking gun that's going to lead to prosecutions or really embarrass anybody in Donald Trump's circle or indeed the president himself himself, why was he so reluctant to release these files? There is nothing that has so far come out of three and a half million documents that I think goes any way to explain why he reneged on his initial promise to release them and caused such a political furore for himself. He really caused himself huge political problems and it's almost impossible to work out why.

[Matt Chorley]

If you step back for a moment for the details of what was really. It is interesting, Justin. The whole of his first of his second presidency has been dominated by these files.

[Justin Webb]

The thing I don't understand, I don't know what Sarah and Anthony make of this. I don't understand why the victims or their lawyers aren't now saying, we need to prosecute X person, Y person, or been in secret to the police saying, you know, there is evidence, here's the email evidence that they were in touch. My client says she was raped by this person on this occasion. And I don't know the answer to that. I just don't see. I think that's one of the great mysteries of this because, yeah, there's a lot of political embarrassment and all the rest of it and Lord Mandelson and this and that. But I mean, there was real abuse going on. There's no question about that. And no prosecutions. And I think that's for a lot of Americans, including a lot of Americans who feel very deeply about this. Why? What's going on?

[Matt Chorley]

Just before we move?

[Sarah Smith]

Nothing in the files that would provide any evidence for a prosecution other than Justin, as you say, there's sometimes emails, people saying, oh, I want to visit you on your island around about this weekend, which might go somewhere to placing somebody on the island on a particular date that maybe somebody says that they were raped or abused. But beyond that, there's absolutely nothing there that would really give grounds for a prosecution. I Haven't seen anything like that, no.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And there are allegations in there. There are reports made to the FBI which are dutifully noted and categorized, but they are just allegations, and some of them are outrageous. But they're in there, and the FBI had them. Whether they followed up to investigate or not. They did involve big names. Donald Trump's names were in some of these lists of allegations, unverified allegations to the FBI. Other famous personalities were in there as well. But again, if someone calls in and tells the FBI and they write it down, that is not the basis for a prosecution. That might be the basis for further inquiry, but there's no indication that those kind of inquiries took place.

[Matt Chorley]

There's also been some emails showing that we saw Elon Musk into this. He discussed traveling to Epstein's island on more than one occasion, including a proposed trip in 2012 in which he asked Epstein, what day or night will be the wildest party on your island. What's Elon Musk been saying, Marianne?

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Well, as you can imagine, there's been quite a lot of focus, actually, on this correspondence between Musk and Epstein, because Elon Musk has been one of the most vocal people about releasing the files, and he's been very critical of Donald Trump. And it was part of their kind of original falling out and everything else. And so when these came out, and they suggest, which goes beyond what he'd said publicly before, that he, you know, had tried to go to the island to go to a party and so on and so forth, everyone said, hold on a second, it feels like you didn't go, but you wanted to go. He's turned around and said, no, no, no. This has all been misinterpreted and misunderstood. I never went to a party. I wasn't on the plane. You know, I'm not implicated in this like other people are. And it does this. This kind of. I don't know, it further fuels this wider narrative on social media in general, which is that lots and lots of powerful people are connected to this in some way, although all of them deny being implicated or any wrongdoing. But people are pouring over. I mean, that's the thing. When documents like this are released, they can now pour over every single little detail. And the kind of irony for Elon Musk is that most of that pouring over the detail is happening on his social media site, X. So you've got him replying to stuff with tweets, and then you've got people, quote, tweeting it, saying, hold up a sec, you said, this, you said that. And they can see the emails for themselves.

[Matt Chorley]

We'll see how this goes. Because you know the reason this is taking so such a drawn out things because we are so many documents and more and more being found all the time. Let's turn our attention to showbiz now, or at least showbiz in its opposition to ice. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers. So at the Grammys last night, lots of musicians voiced opposition to Trump, ICE and the current climate around immigration America, including Scissor, Billie Eilish and Justin's favorite artist, Bad Bunny.

[Justin Webb]

Before I say thanks to God, I'm gonna say eyes out. We're not savage, we're not animals, we're not aliens.

[Sarah Smith]

We are humans and we are Americans.

[Matt Chorley]

You're a big fan of Bad Bunny, Justin.

[Justin Webb]

A massive fan.

[Anthony Zurcher]

He is.

[Justin Webb]

This is a running joke. Favorite song again, I can't remember. I have to get in touch with my daughter and she has to text me during the, during the recording of the podcast which she did last time and I was able then to.

[Matt Chorley]

Yeah, it's so hard to choose. Is it, is it the best of Bad Bunny? Is that your favorite?

[Justin Webb]

I mean, I like Jive Bunny. I like it all. No, no, I, I think the, the man's a genius.

[Matt Chorley]

He's very funny on Saturday Night Live. Anyway, Ian has been in touch on the discord. He says, being an ancient old duffer. I don't think you are Ian, if you're on the discord. He says, being an ancient old duffer. I know nothing of Billie Eilish, but boy, did the young woman nail it when she said at the Grammys, nobody is illegal on stolen land. What she said before was, nobody's illegal on stolen land. It's just really hard to know what to say and what to do right now. And I just, I feel really hopeful in this room and I feel like we just need to keep fighting and speaking up and protesting and our voices really do matter and the people matter. I suppose the question is, does it make any difference if somebody says something at the Gravity's Justice?

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, I think it makes a big difference actually. And I think it's entirely disastrous for the cause. I can't think of anything since Defund the Police that is less likely to appeal to most mainstream Americans at the very time that they feel deeply uncomfortable about ICE and what ICE have been doing in Minnesota to tell them, number one, oh, by the way, this is a hard working American. Maybe on their way home, got to pick the kids up from school, got to make sure, they can exist into next week on the pay that they're getting, et cetera, et cetera. Suddenly you get Billie Eilish of all people saying you live on stolen land. Okay, right, fine. And then not only do you live on stolen land, but anyone can come because you live on stolen land. So what? Anyone, Anyone in the world. How does that feel to most Americans? I think it's one of these things that you think it's a lovely thing to come out with with all your glittering pals when you all live in gated communities. But it's one of those phrases that just, and this is why Sarah was saying this the other day, that the Democrats have got to be quite careful here and feel themselves they need to be careful about this anti ICE stuff because yes, it to an extent catches a wave but if the wave breaks they might find themselves exposed. If that's not mixing too many metaphors.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Isn't one of the issues here though that when it comes to, you've got, it's a sort of double edged sword, oh, I don't know. Or a no win or whatever the right phrase is.

[Justin Webb]

This is more metaphors. Matt's looking deeply mystified. He's typing something, I don't know, he's typing a memo.

[Matt Chorley]

Can we stop doing this?

[Mariana Mazzucato]

No, but you've got this situation where you have, you have celebrities who are, feel like they have to say something because if they don't speak out about these issues, particularly when there's a lot of sort of anger and discontent on social media, then they are blasted for it. But then when they speak out about them. Exactly. As you point out, Justin often then actually completely turns people off who think, hang on a second, you don't really speak for me or understand what's going on. So it's almost like what, I don't, I don't know if you were someone who was working in sort of celebrity pr, I don't really know what, what you would do or wouldn't do when it comes to something like this.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Anthony.

[Matt Chorley]

I suppose we've seen this down the years in all sorts on all sorts of campaigns whether it's I know Beyonce and Oprah lining up for Hillary Clinton or you know, there's a certain way of celebrities talking about politics which, which as Justin said might actually prove counterproductive.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Counterproductive or just not productive. I mean obviously we, I remember in 2016 following Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail and like you said, they had Beyonce, they had a bunch of star studded events where there were Singers who came and supported Hillary Clinton. And I would go around and talk to the people at these concerts and half of them were from other countries or not even voters in whatever area they were they were doing these events in. And it just doesn't really move the needle. Americans vote for reasons that are personal and they don't typically vote because someone, whether it is Billie Eilish or Kid Rock tells them this is the way they should vote. So I think it may not, it may not be off putting necessarily to Americans because they're kind of, they just tune it out. Oh, it's just politics and they go on with their lives, but it is, they feel compelled to speak out. Trevor Noah, his comments about Donald Trump actually have gotten him into a bit of hot water. Now Donald Trump is threatening to sue Trevor Noah, who was the host of the Grammys, for suggesting that Donald Trump and Bill Clinton have both been to Epstein's Island. And now Trump is in a truth social post saying you're going to hear from his lawyers.

[Matt Chorley]

Well, it's all very complicated.

[Sarah Smith]

I've got a counter case because I think that what's happening in the last couple of weeks in America is a real cultural moment. After Alex Pretty was killed, I mean, the killing of Renee Goode attracted a lot of attention. It was after Alex Pretty was killed and you know, it was no longer one isolated incident that this really caught people's imagination and upset a huge amount of Americans who are not engaged day to day in politics. And we all know, you know, we've lived through them before, whether it was Black Lives Matter, different things where something just catches fire and moves beyond the political into the cultural sphere. And it was the fact that that was happening, I think that Donald Trump could tell was going on and why he started talking about wanting to de escalate the situation in Minne. And it is because it's being mentioned at the Grammys, it was being mentioned at the Golden Globes. You can bet this will come up at the Oscars. You will not be able to have major cultural events, probably even the super bowl where Bad Bunny will be performing without people talking about this because it's in the ether and that might not change how people are going to vote in November or again in another two and a half years time. But it does mean that this is something everybody's paying attention to and therefore the administration has to to take care with it because it has caught a cultural moment, I would say.

[Matt Chorley]

Well, we're just sort of working through Justin's playlist here from Bad bunny to Nicki Minaj, who's also, who's actually come out to support Donald Trump. Let's take a listen.

[Justin Webb]

I am probably the President's number one fan and that's not going to change.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

And the hate or what people have.

[Justin Webb]

To say, it does not affect me at all.

[Sarah Smith]

It actually motivates me to support him more and it's gonna motivate all of us to support him more.

[Justin Webb]

We're not going to let them get.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Away with bullying him.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And you know, the smear campaigns, it's not going to work.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Have you seen the memes of. There's this picture of Nicki Minaj and Donald Trump holding hands because they're kind of like about to raise their arms or whatever, you know, saying hello. And it's a very funny picture because you've got Donald Trump's hands and then you've got Nicki Minaj's like incredible nails that are really long. And there's a lot of very, very good memes, like how it feels when I'm typing in a Google Doc with my 23 year old colleague. But interestingly as well, it's again another issue. The thing we've spoken about loads, which Justin, you've spoken about quite a lot, is to what extent does it benefit anyone? Democrats, Donald Trump, Republicans. When celebrities kind of come out and endorse them. And again, you know, Nicki Minaj could backfire a bit. I mean, it starts to seem a bit less in touch with the base or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it shows the kind of change in political feeling and the kind of MAGA being cool and that sort of thing.

[Justin Webb]

Wait till Edward Elgar comes out and endorses, then I'll be interested. Then my ears will prick up.

[Matt Chorley]

Well, from protesting celebrities to protesting quilters, we've had this is. I think it's my favourite question we've maybe ever had on America. This is Alison in North Norfolk.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

This is Alison in North Norfolk. I make patchwork quilts. My social media feed normally consists of.

[Sarah Smith]

Pictures of quilts and other textile arts.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

In the last few weeks, my feed has become dominated by US based quilters.

[Sarah Smith]

And crafters expressing their concerns about what's happening in Minneapolis and encouraging people to speak up and quotas from around the.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

World showing their support.

[Sarah Smith]

I know the algorithms will be skewing what I see.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Can Mariana tell me if this type of protest is something she's seeing in.

[Sarah Smith]

The feeds of the undercover voters? And how widespread is this sense I'm getting of women speaking up and protesting about what is going on now.

[Matt Chorley]

This is fascinating. I suppose this is an example of grassroots protests spitting out from your quilting Instagrammers into protests. Mariana, what you say?

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting question because it's something that we've seen happen before, actually. So when during Donald Trump's first presidency and actually this time around as well, there have been quilters and artists and other people who've kind of made content in protest. I think what's interesting, Alison, is that you are on what we would call. People often talk about being on a particular side of TikTok or Instagram Reels or whatever. So you're obviously already. Your algorithm is getting all the kind of quilt stuff. Therefore you are more likely to be seeing this kind of content perhaps than the average person who's not as interested. Interested in textile arts and quilting and that sort of thing. But what it shows, I think, is that wider discontent that there are people who aren't usually very engaged necessarily in politics, or rather their content isn't, who are actually then making that content political. We've seen it around. We've seen it more so around issues like the war in Gaza, where people who are kind of otherwise creators who don't speak about politics have decided they want to speak out and will make art or do this kind of thing. I think that when you're comparing that actually to the celebrity stuff we were just talking about, it's probably much more effective at feeling like it's coming from the average person who cares about something and is concerned about it and is speaking up in terms of the prevalence of the content. You're kind of right to identify that you're sort of in a niche. But I have seen some of this sorts of stuff on Emma, who is my sort of furthest to the left undercover voter, and he gets quite a lot of activist content. I think what, what's interesting is if, for example, Gabriella, my undecided voter, was into quilting, which is not one of her hobbies, but I could, I could become one of them. I think she would be seeing this stuff. And I. So I think that's a way that people perhaps feeling maybe disconnected or not from politics, but are using social media for other types of content, are being exposed to politics. And that's often quite a good litmus test of when an issue, for example, for example, around ICE and immigration is starting to have kind of widespread discontent or people are thinking, oh, I don't feel comfortable with this.

[Sarah Smith]

This is a fascinating thing that's going on in Minneapolis. Apparently it's also craft based activism where people are knitting red woolen hats to a particular pattern that comes to a point at the top and has a little tassel hanging off. And they are cop piece of hats that the Norwegians knitted and wore during the Nazi occupation in the second World War and they were banned by the Nazis. And so people have taken up this. You can buy the knitting pattern and like five bucks or something that you pay for the knitting pattern online goes towards helping migrants in Minneapolis, I think. So it's a, it's a, you know, it's a very deliberately protest based thing. But as a result, yeah, people are. It's a bit like the pussy hats that people were knitting after Donald Trump was first elected. Yeah, but it's the. These Norwegian red tassel hats are the next big thing in Minneapolis. I read.

[Justin Webb]

Right. We're off the air now with five live and with Matt Chorley. Mariana has had to go off and do other things but Sarah and Anthony and I are still around. So let us go back to the Epstein files because I think there's quite a lot more isn't the guy so to talk about here. And one of the things that is really interesting, isn't it Sarah is that there have been quite a few errors in as much as some of the names of survivors of victims have been disclosed in the latest release. So they did their best or they said they were doing their best to redact stuff that they needed to redact, but frankly they haven't.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. And some of the victims are absolutely furious about this and the lawyers have been making this clear there even naked pictures have been published of people as well without their identities being redacted. But also medical records and other private and identifiable information. Now what the administration says as soon as any of this has been pointed out to them, they have immediately gone back into the files and redacted that. And toblanch the deputy attorney general who announced that this information was being released on Friday. He did say because There is over 3 million documents, mistakes will have been made. It's very possible that information will not have been redacted. That ought to have been and please get in touch with us and we'll correct it as we go. But that said, they have taken months and months over this and yeah, it has not been done particularly well. And as a result the victims are angry that they think they're not seeing any justice as a result of this. They're not seeing evidence being published which could lead to Prosecutions, we certainly haven't heard of any prosecutions that are going to be taken. While at the same time they feel that yet again, they're the ones being victimized because it's their information that's being treated rather shoddily. Whilst. Yeah, while they're not seeing the kind of details they expected to about some of the men they say abused them years ago is not being published as they had expected it to be.

[Anthony Zurcher]

So what you hear from Democrats, including Ro Khanna, who is one of the members of Congress who was a sponsor of this bill forcing the release of all of these millions of documents, and Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority leader, is that there are things that are not included here that they were looking for. Victim interview statements, a draft indictment that prosecutors would came up with for Jeffrey Epstein when he struck that plea deal in the early 2000s, a prosecutorial memorandum during the investigations, all of these different documents that might reveal more about the alleged co conspirators that Epstein was working with and perhaps the corporations, banking, financial institutions that had transactions with Jeffrey Epstein. So they say all the things aren't in, at least as far as they can tell. I mean, there are a lot of documents, but aren't in what was released over the weekend. And now that the Justice Department is saying that's it, we've released most everything, they're wondering publicly where all that went, why they haven't seen it.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, it's really striking, isn't it, that this statement from Epstein's victims, it's a joint statement, isn't it, from their lawyers, saying, among other things, that the Justice Department cannot claim it's finished releasing files until every legally required document is released. And here we go. They say the men who abused us remain hidden and protected. And that then, it seems to me goes to the politics of this to an extent, doesn't it, Sarah? The whole point of this was that there were powerful people behind the scenes who were getting away with these awful things. And if the victims themselves are saying those powerful people do exist, they were there and they're still not any closer to being prosecuted than they were before the release of the files, then it seems to me, politically, this hasn't done anything useful for Trump.

[Sarah Smith]

Well, interesting question. I mean, what it has done potentially is get rid of the problem that the administration was refusing to release the files and it hasn't produced anything monstrously embarrassing about him or people in his administration are in his orbit. What we don't know is that there ever was any information in there that could have led to prosecutions. I mean, that was the assumption from many of the victims. They had no better idea of what was necessarily contained in the files than we did. It was their hope and desire that there would be enough information there that people would be brought to justice. But just because we have seen now most of this information and some of that which hasn't been made public can be looked at by lawmakers, that doesn't mean there ever was going to be a smoking gun in there that would lead to prosecutions or convictions. A lot of people expected there to be, but I don't know. Anthony, what do you think? Do you think it is entirely possible that we are seeing all of the important documents and there just isn't anything there that's good to see anybody else being brought to court?

[Anthony Zurcher]

I mean, that's what the Justice Department said last year, which set off this latest fury of calls for greater disclosures. The Justice Department, as you'll recall, said that there wasn't any grounds in what they had for any further prosecutions and that effectively the case was closed. And that that generated so much anger from the victims, from politicians, from conspiracy theorists who were. Who believed that the government was covering something up. So, you know, if you maybe, maybe take the Justice Department at face value and say, okay, they said there was nothing in here. Now all this has been revealed and there was nothing in there. Maybe that's, maybe that is the truth of it. But as I mentioned from certain people, Democrats and others, they say there are documents that they're looking for that they know exist that they haven't seen in these releases. And until they see those documents, original police reports in Palm beach county, charging documents, FBI interviews, until they see those, they're not going to be convinced that everything has been released.

[Justin Webb]

But it's not just the Democrats, is it? I mean, that seems to me to be. If there is still a problem, I take Sarah's point that maybe there was nothing there anyway. But in a sense that the reality of the situation is not the political problem, is it? The political problem was that Republicans particularly had convinced themselves and MAGA people had convinced themselves that this was a giant conspiracy. And Donald Trump, of course, added to this feeling. During the election campaign, there was this great conspiracy of people behind the scenes, and he, Donald Trump, was going to expose those people and they would then be prosecuted. And lo and behold, the people have not been exposed, and we don't seem any closer to prosecutions. And you wonder how that settled, but you actually know how it settles with some of them. So Marjorie Taylor Greene, who of course has famously fallen out with Donald Trump now, but was very much a supporter of his and has really been one of the kind of leading people on the right, the maga, right when it comes to all of this, now saying, I think she said this on Sunday in a post saying the Epstein files are proving it's all one big repulsive club no matter which party is in charge. And that, of course, that's very much what they were always saying, wasn't it? But then he, Donald Trump was going to blow all that to one side and he, Donald Trump was going to kind of do the bidding of those who want to destroy the uniparty. And he hasn't.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. And we're still left, of course, with a fascinating scene that the two people whose association with Jeffrey Epstein really has cost them not just their reputations, but far more than that are the two Brits, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Lord Mandelson, who there's even speculation today might even be stripped of that peerage as well as a result of his association with Geoffrey Epstein having gone on much longer than he had admitted to previously and some of the ways in which they were embroiled. There is not yet one single American who has suffered anything like the damage that two British men have.

[Justin Webb]

Is that because of the difference between our countries? Are Americans more shameless, Anthony? I mean, is there a kind of cultural thing there? Because it is really noticeable, isn't it? What Sarah's just said is that, I mean, well, why is that, do you think? Could we.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Because it's, and obviously those are two prominent Brits, I mean, royalty. It doesn't get much more prominent than that. There are Americans who have paid a political and professional price for their connections to Jeffrey Epstein. Larry Summers, the former treasury secretary who was a Harvard professor, has definitely been forced out of some of his high profile positions because of it. But yeah, there hasn't been the kind of big name, you're right. Even though, you know, Jeffrey Epstein has been tied to, say, Bill Clinton, the former president has been tied, as we mentioned, Steve Bannon, to members of Donald Trump's social circle, including Howard Lutnick. But I guess part of it is that maybe it's the revelations aren't as dramatic as what we've seen with Andrew Mountbatten or with Peter Mandelson. And that is, that's why. Or maybe it's just we move a little slower in exiling people because of scandals in this country. I don't know. I don't know if we're shameless. I'm not gonna go that far.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

Justin.

[Justin Webb]

Righty ho. On that ambiguous note, bye bye.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Bye bye bye. Thank you for listening to another episode. It's you, the ameracaster that makes ameracast the community it is. If you like what you've heard, please do subscribe to this podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We always want to hear your feedback and we look at every single bit of correspondence we get. You can send us an email americastbc.co.uk our WhatsApp is 44331239480 and of course you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. Until next time. Bye.

[Mariana Mazzucato]

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.