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Americanswers... on 5 Live! Donald Trump vs Pope Leo on Iran
00:28:28
The US president insults the pope and depicts himself as Jesus
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- [00:00]
BBC Announcer
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- [00:38]
Sarah
As we answer your questions as we usually do on a Monday, we have got a lot to get through and a lot to catch up on. We've got President Trump in a very public route with the Pope, whom he's been insulting. And the Pope has responded saying that he's going to carry on speaking out against the war in Iran. We've got questions about why on earth Melania Trump chose to make a statement about her and her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein that just propelled that story right to the top of the headlines when frankly, nobody had really been talking about it before she spoke out. We'll ask how far Donald Trump might go with his threat to blockade the Strait of Hormuz and why Viktor Orban's defeat in the Hungary elections really does actually matter to Donald Trump and to his MAGA movement. Today you've got Anthony, Mariana and me, Sarah talking to Matt Charlie on five Live. Welcome to americast. Americast americast from BBC News.
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Anthony
You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money. We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.
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Marianne
This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it.
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Sarah
This guy has Trump derangement syndrome.
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Anthony
I have four words for you.
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Matt Charlie
Turn the volume. Sharon in Adelaide in Australia, emails. Trump's threat to have his own blockade is surely illegal. If so, should he reasonably expect his navy to implement an order to blockade, given the military is not expected to act on a legal order? We've also had a text in this afternoon. When Trump is threatened to bomb Iran to oblivion, would it be considered treason if the American Air Force said it's going too far and we won't do it? Anthony, what's the legality of all of this?
- [02:24]
Anthony
Well, on the blockade, it depends on whether you're looking at the legality of what Donald Trump said the blockade was going to be yesterday or the way the US Navy is actually enforcing the blockade. Yesterday, Donald Trump said that the United States was going to prevent all traffic through the Strait of Hormuz and it was going to stop ships that paid any kind of a toll to Iran for passing through, even if they were coming from somewhere else in the Gulf, flagged under a different country. That would be of questionable legality under international law because you're not supposed to stop and board non combatant ships that don't have anything to do with the enemy that you're fighting against. But the way the US Navy is enforcing it, the way they've announced that they're enforcing it, is stopping ships coming out of Iranian ports, which that is kind of a traditional definition of a blockade during wartime. And so it does with international law, although people will point out that the United States is not actually at war with Iran. The Congress is not declared a state of war. So there could be some domestic critics who say this is going too far on the part of the administration. But when it gets to the technicalities of international law, I think it is in keeping with what is standard war operations.
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Matt Charlie
And then how does it play out domestically? Sarah, how is this being viewed by Americans?
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Sarah
So interestingly, there has been a bit of a push recently from some Democrats like Senator Mark Kelly and Lissa Slotkin from Michigan to try to persuade people in the armed forces to refuse illegal orders. And they made a video about that saying that not only is it within the law to refuse to do something that you think is illegal, in fact, it's your duty.
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Anthony
You can refuse illegal orders, you can refuse illegal orders, you must refuse illegal orders.
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Marianne
No one has to carry out orders
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Sarah
that violate the law or our Constitution.
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Anthony
We know this is hard.
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Sarah
And the administration went crazy about this and actually tried to punish Mark Kelly, who is a reserve in the military. And there was a real, real battle over that. So, yeah, the administration does take it very seriously and probably would describe as treasonous anybody refusing to carry out one of these orders. But it's with some relief, I think, that while the Navy's being asked to maintain this blockade, that Air Force bombers were not asked to end civilization in Iran, which is what Donald Trump was threatening last week. That was widely seen as urging a war crime to take place. And people are uncomfortable about that. But I think, I mean, generally public opinion is they don't want this conflict to continue. They really don't like the effect on oil prices and what that means for the price of petrol at the pump. And I think it's going to be quite difficult, difficult in the face of that kind of public opinion for Donald Trump to go back to attacking Iran the same way he was doing so before so he, you know, he's always telling people, you don't have any cards to play. Well, I think he's got fewer cards this week than he used to have.
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Matt Charlie
Let's focus on another aspect of this, and there's some of the criticism that Donald Trump's been having at this time from the Pope, Pope Leo. So on Saturday, he didn't directly mention the war, but he said praying for peace is a bulwark against that delusion of omnipotence that surrounds us. And it's been coming in increasingly unpredictable and aggressive. He went on to say, we cry out, stop. It is time for peace. Sit at the table of dialogue and mediation. Well, in response to that, Donald Trump wrote a very lengthy social post criticizing the Pope. And he followed it up with reporters last night on the tarmac with Air Force One in the background. Let's take a listen.
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Anthony
We don't like a pope that's going to say that it's okay to have a nuclear weapon. We don't want a pope that says crime is okay in our cities. I don't like it. I'm not a big fan of Pope Leo. He's a very liberal person and he's a man that doesn't believe in stopping crime. He's a man that doesn't think that we should be toying with a country that wants a nuclear weapon so they can blow up the world. I'm not. I'm not a fan of Pope Leo in return.
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Matt Charlie
This morning, also on a plane, on a plane to Algeria this time, Pope Leo told reporters he has no fear of the Trump administration.
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Anthony
I do not look at my role as being political politician. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue to speak out loud against war looking to promote peace.
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Matt Charlie
Now, we've had so many questions about this. Ray in Liverpool asks how much coverage is there in the American media of Pope Leo's differences with the Trump administration? How will the President's criticism of the Pope affect his standing across the USA's as someone else? Nicola in Canterbury. Do you think Trump's portrayal of himself is Christ and comments about the Pope will have an impact on his Christian MAGA followers? Or do they think they are a particular kind of evangelical Christian nationalists and won't care? Now you can bring us details of the depiction of Donald Trump as Christ.
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Marianne
Yeah, so there's this AI seems to be AI generated Image and it could
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Matt Charlie
be an oil painting, could be an
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Marianne
oil painting looks very suspiciously AI of Donald Trump being Jesus blessing the tops of people's heads of reincarnated rising Again, as you can imagine, anything that depicts religious figures in that way across most religions tends to trigger both outrage and then some people who find it kind of funny. That is exactly what's happened. Donald Trump is the master of rage bait. I think that would be fair to say. Whether you love it or hate it, it certainly provokes a reaction, the whole of this spat. Although I, I don't know if spat is the right word because it doesn't feel like the Pope wants to be a part of the spat. But anyway, this kind of whatever's unfolding between the Pope and Donald Trump is incredibly memeable. And I think that's probably also why Donald Trump's very social media savvy team know how to create and put out content that will further trigger different conversations.
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Matt Charlie
Anthony, we've had a question from Ben in Glasgow who says, what is going on with the Trump and the Pope? Is there a genuine or lasting falling out going on or is it something that we've forgotten about next week when he moves on to whoever nation or leader is next on the list to fall?
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Anthony
Yeah, the friction between Trump and the Pope has been brewing for some time. This is not the only incident where Pope Leo has said something that has been perceived by the White House as being critical of administration policy. Obviously, the Iran war has been a cause of that recently. But even going back to earlier this year, the Pope had been criticizing immigration policy by the Trump administration, saying that it wasn't pro life to turn people away who are in need. And so I think there has been dissatisfaction on Trump's part growing over time. And now it's kind of spilling out into public view how it's playing in the American media. I will say that it is getting a lot of attention. Interestingly enough, as Marianna mentioned, it wasn't really necessarily conflict between Trump and Pope Leo that's getting the most attention among Donald Trump supporters. It's this depiction of himself as Jesus where we have, I've seen several people who are Trump supporters, Trump allies, people like Riley Gaines, who is a female athlete who has been a Trump supporter who had been campaigning against trans athletes. She came out and said that this was not an appropriate thing and that he should delete it immediately. Sean Fuched, a right wing Christian activist, has condemned this. I saw several people on Fox News saying this was going too far on the part of Trump. So you're seeing some unease with Trump trying to portray himself this way even in his evangelical base, which has stuck with him pretty much through thick and thin for quite some time now.
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Matt Charlie
I mean, he should obviously, don't forget
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Sarah
Pope Leo is the first American Pope.
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Matt Charlie
Yes.
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Sarah
And so he is associated more with President Trump. In fact, President Trump had put on social media saying, this guy only got to be Pope because of me. And I mean, to a certain extent, there may be some truth behind that, because it was obvious when he was chosen as the Pope that he probably was going to be quite critical. And his criticism is in English. Now, I don't want to make broadcasters sound too simplistic, but if you have a soundbite from the Pope in English, it's going to get on television and the radio much quicker than one that's in Latin or Italian or Spanish or, you know, whatever else. And don't forget, before Pope Leo was chosen, when Pope Francis died, Donald Trump did suggest that if they were looking for a new pope, it should be him. And he posted another AI generated image of him in the pontiff's robes and wearing the hat at the time. And, I mean, that was a joke, obviously, but I don't know if everybody treats it as a joke when he says that he was genuinely saved by divine intervention from the assassination attempt in the summer of 2024 during the election campaign. That was something that got his evangelical base, you know, really, really keen on him. But these are the same people who might be deeply offended by what he's doing and saying now.
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Matt Charlie
But then, Marianne, it goes back to your point about Ragebait is it's if you are someone who disagrees with Donald Trump for doing it, do you ignore him and hope he stops doing it, or do you pile in, then end up amplifying? You know, essentially, do you repost him, saying it's age, portraying himself as Jesus, but then what you're actually doing is, you know that that is part of the aim.
- [11:57]
Marianne
Yeah. What people struggle with is that this content will regardless get a huge amount of traction because it is coming from the President of the United States. So the kind of, oh, just ignore it and it won't go viral thing, probably she ends up not being hugely effective. I mean, the same could be said when you were chatting about Iran before. But a lot of the content about the war, whether it's coming from the US And US accounts, or whether it's coming from Iran and Iranian accounts, again, a lot of it is deliberately rage baity kind of sanitizing the violence on the ground, triggering a reaction. And there are quite important questions over whether people want to engage or not engage with this stuff, because they are ultimately kind of becoming part of that ecosystem where they push out a particular narrative or message.
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Matt Charlie
Before we move on to. We've got some more questions at the moment. I just want to bring you some breaking news from the US that a US judge has dismissed the case that Donald Trump had brought against the Wall Street Journal. This is over a story about ties the US President had to the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. It asked for at least $10 billion in damages. This follows a report that Trump's name was in a birthday book given to Epstein in 2003. Trump said it was a fake thing. The U.S. district Judge Darren Gale says Trump came nowhere close to showing the Wall Street Journal acted with actual malice towards him. It's been dismissed without prejudice. Trump could file a new amended lawsuit. He's got until the 27th of April. Obviously, this is just one of many cases, including cases obviously he's got against the BBC. Sarah. But is this expected or will this be a disappointment to Donald Trump?
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Sarah
I'm sure it'll be a disappointment to Donald Trump because he goes into all of these legal actions convinced that he can win, regardless of what the facts behind it all are. But what he was suing the Wall Street Journal for was that they had reported on a letter which they said had been written by Donald Trump and was included in that famous birthday book of Jeffrey Epstein's. And they reported on this before we'd seen the birthday book. So first of all, they described what he'd written in it and what it looked like. And then eventually an image of it was published. And then later, when the Epstein birthday book itself was released in the Epstein files, that letter was in there, although Donald Trump insists that it was a fake. I mean, it was a bit of a reach, this case. He, I think, launched it in order to try and make his denials that he'd ever written this letter look more convincing. But the reason the judges dismissed it is that he says Donald Trump couldn't prove that there was any malice towards him at the Wall Street Journal when they did this report. I think that'll be something that's very interesting that the BBC's lawyers will be looking at, because they also say that there was no malice towards Donald Trump in the way that Panorama was edited.
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Matt Charlie
Fabulous. Good to go. Bring some breaking news to AmericasT. Right, let's turn our attention now to the situation in Hungary. It was notable cause we had us Vice President J.D. vance went to Hungary last week in support of the Prime Minister there, Viktor Orban, who we now learn has lost the election there. Here's a reminder of JD Vance at a rally in Budapest last week, which he opened by calling Donald Trump on the phone.
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BBC Announcer
Let's hope he actually answers.
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Anthony
This is going to be very embarrassing.
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Sarah
I'm sorry. The person you were trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not
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Anthony
been set up yet. Okay, try one more time.
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BBC Announcer
It's ringing. It's progress.
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Anthony
Hello, Mr. President, how are you?
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BBC Announcer
You are on with about 5,000 Hungarian
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Anthony
patriots and I think they love you
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BBC Announcer
even more than they love Viktor Orban.
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Anthony
Well, I can't believe that. I can't believe that because I love Hungary and I love that Victor, I'll tell you, he's a fantastic man. We've had a tremendous relationship and he
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Matt Charlie
does, albeit relationship which might be slightly come to an end now Victor Orban has lost that election. We've got Phil in Liverpool on the line. Hello, Phil, what's your question for the Mayor Casters?
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Anthony
Hi, nat. Yeah, it's 18 months ago, the Trump campaign complained about Labour staffers going at their own expense to help the Democratic Party in the election and they're. Oh, that's all right. That's foreign interference.
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Sarah
Yeah, the Vice President in the world
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Anthony
media says vote for someone else in a foreign country. And I do not like the hypocrisy
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Matt Charlie
that has saying one thing and then doing something else. Who could have thought, Anthony, why did. I suppose the first question is why did JD Vance feel like he should go to Budapest and throw his weight behind Victor Orban actually at a point point where polls were suggesting he was probably on course to lose?
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Anthony
Yeah, that's the thing. Orban had been trailing in the polls for months. It did not look like he was in a position where he was even close to winning. So for JD Vance to go there and do that late push did put the Trump administration in the position it finds itself now backing a loser and even more connected to one of their allies, a right wing populist quasi authoritarian. Losing that. Now people are drawing the parallels between what happened in Hungary and Donald Trump's popularity here in the United States. But I think the message is that they felt it important enough to try to boost up Orban, to send Vance there, to have him make that last minute push, and maybe they thought that it would be enough to give him some kind of boost in the way that some of Donald Trump's endorsements in Latin America have helped right wing candidates win in Central and Latin America. But that did not prove to be the case in Hungary. And as Phil rightly points out, there's a bit of hypocrisy because the Trump people were complaining vociferously when some labor staffers came over. But here you have seen this administration be perfectly willing to weigh into foreign political contests and endorse candidates, endorse right wing candidates, whether it be in Germany or Hungary or France or Latin America.
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Matt Charlie
It's a great question. Thanks for that, Phil. We've had a question from Daphne in Amsterdam.
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Sarah
What is the story right now on the building of the ballroom? I was reading in the New York
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Anthony
Times Magazine's channel online that Trump has imported foreign steel, but I thought the
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Sarah
whole building of the ballroom was under debate.
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Anthony
Can you give me and all the listeners a current update?
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Matt Charlie
Thank you. Let's go to our ballroom correspondent, Anthony Zurcher. Anthony, what's going on?
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Anthony
That's quite a title. Well, we had a federal judge respond to a lawsuit challenging the legality of the construction of the ballroom. And that judge issued a decision saying that, in fact, the ballroom construction should be suspended because Congress has to be the one that signs off on this. He did put a two week delay on that order to allow an appeals court to weigh in. That appeals court has weighed in and said that construction could continue until this Friday and that the judge has to that original judge has to look into whether there are national security concerns here. That was a case that the Trump administration was making that this is not just about a ballroom. This is about building bunkers under the White House and that if you delayed or stopped the construction, it would put the White House at risk. So construction is going on for the next few days. This judge will weigh in one way or the other possibly by the end of the week and say whether this can keep going because there are bunkers and medical facility that are being built underneath where the ballroom is going to be. Or he puts the whole thing on hold or he just says you can't build the ballroom, but you can keep doing the other things that are more vital to national security. So it's kind of a fuzzy time between now and when this decision comes out. But Trump, I think, wants to keep pressing ahead whenever he can.
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Sarah
So we've just come off there with Matt Charlie on five live. And before we go, Anthony, I've got to ask you about Melania Trump's appearance last week when she shocked us all by coming out and giving A statement at the White House basically denying rumors she said were going around about her and Jeffrey Epstein having had a closer relationship than had been reported. Now, there actually weren't that many stories going around about Melania and Epstein, but nonetheless she came out and denied any close ties to Jeffrey Epstein.
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Anthony
The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today. The individuals lying about me are devoid of ethical standards, humility and respect. I do not object to their ignorance, but rather I reject their mean spirited attempts to defame my reputation. I never been friends with Epstein. Donald and I were invited to the same party as Epstein from time to time, since overlapping in social circles is common in New York City and Palm Beach. To be clear, I never had a relationship with Epstein or his accomplice.
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Sarah
Maxwell how surprised were you when she suddenly started talking about Epstein? Anthony?
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Anthony
Well, you know, the White House gave us no real information about what this event was going to be. They said it was going to be. They said it was going to be kind of along the same level of importance as Melania's press event. Talking about children in Ukraine and her letter to Vladimir Putin's wife and the correspondents there. So we're all thinking, oh, it might be about Iran, it might be about the war. And then she comes and essentially blindsides all of us by talking about Epstein. But you do have to remember the context of all this. You heard Melania mentioned that they had gone to parties together and there were photos of Melania and Trump and Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, his co conspirator, posing together for the cameras. There was a letter in the Epstein files where Melania sent to Ghislaine Maxwell talking about how it would be nice to see them when they're down in Florida again, seemingly very casual and friendly, which has also fueled these questions about whether they were closer than has been portrayed by, certainly by the Trump people. And then there are rumors spinning around about Epstein introducing Donald Trump to Melania, which they have vehemently denied and there hasn't been any evidence of that. But the conspiracy theories, the theories around who Melania knew and when she knew them and how close the relationship was, all of that has been kind of spirally out of control, which could explain why she came out to, to denounce all of this.
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Sarah
Yeah, Anthony, what we were wondering, all of us was, yeah, is there a story about to break? And whoever was going to publish that, whether it was in the press or maybe a book that was coming out, could have phoned the White House for comment and that would have alerted them to the fact that this story was out there and going to be published soon. And that's why Melania wanted to get ahead of it. But there is also an ex friend of hers, a former friend of hers has been threatening on social media to tell all about Melania. And so, you know, it could be that she's worried, worried that something's gonna come out of that, although it has been several days now and we haven't seen anything in the press. So that just adds to the confusion about why Melania wanted to draw so much attention to herself, to the fact that she'd emailed Ghislaine Maxwell, those photographs of her at parties with Jeffrey Epstein. You know, it brought all of that up again for a lot of people who hadn't been thinking about it. So she must have been worried that something really quite bad was going to come out, I think, rather than just addressing what was generally in the milieu there.
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Anthony
Right. And Sarah, I'm sure you've heard the jokes about how well the Iran war must be going so badly that they've decided to distract it by talking about Epstein, which was the Iran war was originally a distraction from the Epstein thing, which was going badly. And around and around we go. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But one thing is again very clear through all of this, and that is that this Epstein discussion isn't going away and that there's more out there that clearly concerns the White House. And I think this story, despite all the files that have come out, despite all of the investigations, despite all of the ups and downs and twists and turns, I think we have more left in store before this all goes away.
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Sarah
Yeah. And Anthony, you mentioned there the idea that the war with Iran isn't going terrifically well. And of course, we've talked on the podcast before about all the criticism of Donald Trump launching this action that has come from his right wing MAGA Make America Great Again base. Some of the most well known influencers on the right have previously said that they don't agree with him starting this war. And he posted, I think it's the longest post I've ever seen him do on Truth Social. It goes on and on and on, complaining about Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Alex Jones and Megyn Kelly, who's been really critical of this war as well. This is her responding to that threat from Donald Trump that an entire civilization will die tonight, which he posted last week as a threat to Iran. I'm sick of it. Can't he just Behave like a normal human. I mean, honestly, like the President. I3D yes, shut up, Shut up about that. You don't threaten to wipe out an entire civilization. We're talking about civilians just casually in a social media post, like, he can't negotiate without doing this. What does that say about him? What does that say about the position that our country is in right now in these negotiations? He's gotta say this. He can't be a dignified, strong leader without threatening a bunch of war crimes. So it's in response to criticism like that from people who had been some of Donald Trump's most avid supporters that had him lashing out, calling them nut jobs, troublemakers. You know, he's really being very, very rude about these losers, he calls them, who, you know, up until a few weeks ago were very firmly on his side.
- [26:13]
Anthony
Yeah, that truth social post that Donald Trump wrote attacking Carlson and the others, Megyn Kelly and Alex Jones, a conspiracy theorist, and Candace Owens, who also is a bit of a conspiracy theorist, it was one of the longest ones Trump has ever written, is 480something words. And in addition to calling them stupid people, as you mentioned, Sarah, he also says nobody cares about them. But then, then after saying that, he goes on for another 370 words, talking about them individually, picking them apart, ticking through, using derisive language about all of them. He said Tucker Carlson had a low watch show on X, although it is still pretty influential. After he left Fox News, he made fun of Candace Owens appearance. He recalled how Megyn Kelly had asked him those pointed questions about his views on women and the, the 2015 Republican presidential debate. And then he talked about how Alex Jones had been sued by the family of survivors of the Sandy Hook school shootings for saying that those school shootings never happened. It was an odd kind of extended rant, but I think it does reflect the sensitivity that Trump has that members of his own base, people that he had counted on in the 2024 presidential election to reach out to younger Americans, to disaffected voters who, who couldn't be reached in traditional campaign methods that they now were using their megaphones, using their platforms to criticize Donald Trump. And we heard there with Megyn Kelly, in very explicit terms, Tucker Carlson. I mean, he called Donald Trump's comments about civilizational destruction vile on every level. So this isn't just some polite criticism. These are Donald Trump supporters really going after him now. And clearly that has gotten under his skin.
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Sarah
Okay, Anthony, we should probably leave it there for this particular episode and just
- [28:06]
Anthony
say bye Bye bye.
- [28:13]
Matt Charlie
Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description and don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time.
- [29:09]
BBC Announcer
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