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Americanswers on 5 Live! Why is Donald Trump threatening to sue the BBC for $1 billion?
00:33:24
And how will the U.S. government shutdown end?
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- [00:00]
Justin Webb
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
- [00:06]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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- [01:11]
Justin Webb
Welcome back to another Monday Q and A session. The big stories today. Well, the coming end to the US Government shutdown is huge in America, but of course, Donald Trump and the BBC, that's pretty huge too. Just after we recorded with Matt Chorley, we had breaking news. The US Media reporting that Donald Trump is threatening to sue the BB for a billion dollars. And we also talk about Elon Musk, which we do often, but it's worth doing this time round in particular because he's launching a rival to Wikipedia. We also discuss whether Barack Obama might return to politics. When we got going though, Matt wasn't even in the studio. He was on his way back from interviewing the Chancellor down the road at number 11 Downing Street. The Chancellor, by the way, if you're not living in Britain, is the Treasury Minister in Britain. So we start this edition with me from filling in live on the radio until he got into the studio. Here's our episode with me, Mariana and Anthony as well. Welcome to americanswas. This is the most exciting moment in my broadcasting license. Justin Webb here from AmericasT. Matt, as you know, has just been interviewing the Chancellor. There was a very dramatic exit from number 11. He is somewhere currently between number 11 Downing street and the BBC's offices in Westminster. There's a video feed of the interview that he was conducting here in the studio. I'm just looking up on it now and it says rather worrying. No active connection. Oho, Matt. There is an active connection.
- [02:49]
Matt Chorley
That was quite an evil you did there, Justin, when you realized you had the power. And by the way, Matt, you can't tell me off for not being in Millbank. A because I've just flown back and had half an hour's sleep, but B, because you're not even there yet.
- [03:03]
Mariana
Well, you say that, Mariana, but I'm here.
- [03:07]
Anthony
Goodness.
- [03:09]
Justin Webb
It's AmericasT.
- [03:10]
Anthony
We'll crack on.
- [03:10]
Justin Webb
And Anthony's there because I can hear you, Anthony.
- [03:15]
Anthony
I am in Washington dc. Hello, everyone.
- [03:17]
Mariana
Very good. So I'm here, Justin's here, Mariana's here, Anthony's here. It's time for AmericasT.
- [03:23]
Matt Chorley
AmericasT.
- [03:25]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
AmericasT, from BBC News, when Donald Trump.
- [03:29]
Anthony
Calls, they say, yes, sir, right away. Way, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir.
- [03:33]
Mariana
We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear.
- [03:36]
Matt Chorley
Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the President supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.
- [03:42]
Anthony
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [03:52]
Mariana
Yes. It's time for americast and we should probably start with this story, which is big on both sides of the of the Atlantic. The BBC chair, Samir Shires apologized this afternoon for an error of judgment. Yesterday. The BBC's director general, Tim Davy and CEO of news, Deborah Tennis, both resigned, of course. Is all over how a 2024 Panorama documentary edited Donald Trump's speech from January 6, 2021, without making it a clip of Trump had been edited. In a statement, BBC chair Samir Shah said, we accept that the way the speech was edited did give the impression of a direct call for violent action to BBC would like to AP for that error. On Sunday, President Trump posted this on social media. Lots of it's in capitals but I won't shout those bits. The top people in the BBC, including Tim, David, the boss, are all quitting, fired because they were caught doctoring in quotes my very good brackets. Perfect speech of January 6th. Thank you to the Telegraph exposing these corrupt journalists. These are very dishonest people who try to step on the scales of a presidential election on top of everything else. They are from a foreign country, one that many consider our number one ally. What a terrible thing for democracy. And then we found out today that Donald Trump has sent a letter to the BBC threatening legal action. So there's a lot for us to talk about and obviously it's more about more than just this Panorama. But right now we'll focus on that because that's the sort of the American angle on what happened last night and then again today. Anthony, just explain for our listeners who might have come to this story. Very late and not followed it all clear up the truth about January 6th. What did Trump actually say in his speech versus what was shown on Panama?
- [05:30]
Anthony
Right. So on Panorama, the clip was mashed up and it was, we're going to walk down to the Capitol. I'll be with you, and we will fight. We will fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. So it gave the impression that Donald Trump was directly calling for a march on the US Capitol and for people to fight. What he actually said over a speech that stretched about an hour was, we are going to walk down, I'll be with you. We're going to walk down, we're going to walk down anyone you want. But I think right here, we're going to walk down to the Capitol and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them, because you can never take our country back with weakness. A little later on, he said, I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. That's something that Donald Trump supporters point to, saying that he was calling for peaceful marches and peaceful protests. That clip where Donald Trump said, we fight and we fight like hell, that came about later in the speech, although Trump used the words fight and fighting dozens of times in that speech with assertions that the election was stolen and dire warnings about how if the election results weren't reversed, America wouldn't exist as a country anymore. You know, the fact of the matter is he gave that speech in the morning. And later that day, several hours later, Trump supporters did attack the Capitol. They broke onto the Senate floor, they ransacked congressional offices, and they brought election certification to a halt for about 12 hours. Trump's role in all of this was investigated by a congressional committee. He would later be indicted on federal and state charges for attempting to overturn the results of the election. But none of those cases ever reached trial, and the federal charges were ultimately dropped when Trump won re election.
- [07:16]
Mariana
Marianna, how's this playing out in terms of the sort of relationship between the mainstream media and Donald Trump? This is not. The BBC, is not the first organization he's threatened to sue.
- [07:24]
Matt Chorley
No, it definitely isn't chatted quite a lot about all of the different legal cases that have been unfolding where Donald Trump has, has decided to take action because he wasn't happy with an edit or because there, there Was, you know, a disagreement in how he feels. The media have, have been covering certain topics. And I've got a list actually of, of some of the other, some of the other, you know, he's, he's had a go before at abc, at cbs. And we know that there's this case going on with the New York Times at the moment. You know, this is something Donald Trump, he's not shy of taking legal action against, against media outlets, and he's certainly not shy of calling them fake news and disinformation and as he did there in that truth social post, corrupt journalists with capital letters. And it's worth saying, you know, this is about more than from a US point of view. This is about obviously, this Panorama edit we've been talking about. But the memo itself, the leaked memo, which has triggered this whole conversation, is also about lots of other things, like Gaza, for example, and how the BBC covered last year's election in the US more generally, including our own Sarah Smith, who presents AmericasT in her role as North America editor. And when you look at how this is playing out on social media, so my undercover voters, with their accounts across all the main social media sites, I use them to interrogate what different people are pushed and recommended. You can see how some of these narratives, particularly taking aim at the mainstream media saying that they are fake news, they distort stuff, that they get stuff wrong all the time, have got loads and loads and loads of traction, sometimes going beyond legitimate concerns and questions, sometimes not. And then you've also got other narratives suggesting that this is, that this is an attack on the press, and then going beyond that with some kind of slightly more conspiratorial takes that are taking off on the other side. So a lot of this is playing out through a very polarized social media world, as it, as it always does. And a lot of Donald Trump's key phrases and words are popping up all over the place.
- [09:22]
Justin Webb
I mean, I think it's worth pointing out, don't laugh at me, Matt, when I do this, okay? Promise not to laugh.
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Mariana
I won't laugh.
- [09:27]
Justin Webb
Please promise not to laugh because you've got your number 11 Downing street shirt on and all the rest of it. Very serious trials, serious day in the history of the nation. I do think that on ameracast we have always really bent over backwards and it hasn't always been easy, actually, because the audience, generally speaking, doesn't think much of Donald Trump. It is as simple and as blunt as that. But generally we've bent over backwards, to be fair. To and during the whole course of his effort to be re elected, we have pointed out again and again the efforts of his supporters to be heard and to be heard in terms that they would understand matter to them. We've pointed out the things that his opponents did wrong, including obviously Joe Biden and that effort to keep him in the White House when he was pretty obvious to everyone, including most Americans, that he was unfit, if not to serve, then certainly to be reelected. And even recently on this program, we did an entire episode on how Donald Trump's efforts to reorganize American universities might be considered by some, and is considered possibly by a majority of Americans, to be an effort to rebalance a kind of academic monoculture that has completely forced out any proper questioning of important issues inside those universities. And that is something, frankly, you don't hear, not just elsewhere in the BBC, but elsewhere in the, in the media. So it is a really difficult job. And I'm certainly not suggesting we've always got it right, but I think it is really important that we try to carry on and this is a warning to us all not to get kind of swept up in these efforts to say, oh, well, you know, Donald Trump, obviously he had violent intent or obviously he did this or obviously did that. Stick to factual reporting of what he's doing and when necessary, report what his supporters think is important. And that's, that's what we do. You didn't laugh at all?
- [11:26]
Mariana
No, I didn't laugh at all because I was under strict instructions. It's very important. Let's move on then and talk about some of the other things which are happening in America right now. We've got a question from Rose in Lincolnshire. Listening to you all talking about the government shutdown and people not being paid for large indeterminate amounts of time leads me to this question. How do ordinary people manage? Are there mechanisms in place for people to be able to carry on paying their mortgage bills, etc.
- [11:49]
Anthony
Well, the reality is that there was no set governmental policy for how to help federal employees who lost their paychecks, who weren't being paid for about a month during this shutdown. Now, private companies, banks and mortgage companies and utility companies did offer special dispensation to government employees, a chance to put off payments in some instances, but this was done on a kind of an ad hoc basis. It was a challenging time for government employees. I mean, imagine yourself sitting at home and not being able to get a paycheck, several paychecks over the course of a month. A lot of People, a lot of our listeners, I imagine a lot of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and it would be incredibly stressful. So they managed, I guess, as best they could. And now that it looks like the government is going to reopen, these people will receive back pay and they will start getting their paycheck. So hopefully they've been able to, to hang on and make ends meet during what has been, I'm sure, a very trying time for them.
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Matt Chorley
Matt, can I add my shutdown firsthand experience?
- [12:53]
Mariana
Oh, yes, of course.
- [12:54]
Matt Chorley
Only because I have just come back from. I was in New York and Chicago for this documentary I'm doing for BBC2 about social media algorithms and we were stuck on the tarmac for what felt like hours and hours and hours. I think it was about two hours when we were flying from New York to Chicago and I couldn't understand what was going on. And I thought, why, why is everyone just so relaxed about the fact that everything is so incredibly delayed? And then I, it was the shutdown, which is a very small example of how it was really annoying.
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Mariana
Another big topic in the AmericasT inbox this week is about whether this former US president is about to make a comeback.
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Anthony
Thank you.
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Justin Webb
All right, all right, all right. Fired up too.
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Mariana
So that's Barack Obama there, fired up, campaigning with Democrats and they won big in key US Elections last week. Jim has sent us this. If Barack Obama's recent multi city tour in support of Democrat candidates were they meant as a warning shot to Republicans, they will return to the presidential trail if Trump manages to overturn the 22nd Amendment. So there's a, there's some hurdles to get through there. But if, if Trump finds a way to run again, that would obviously free the field for Barack Obama to run again. So it could be a rerun. Trump versus Obama. Justin?
- [14:21]
Justin Webb
No, I don't think he'd do it. I don't think. I think he lives in an enormous, pleasant and doubtless many would say deserved luxury in Martha's Vineyard. And I don't think he's absolutely got it in him. I think he can do the odd campaign intervention. But the idea of being president again and there is a certain person to whom he is married who would have very strong views on that and she would definitely express them and probably express them publicly. There is absolutely no way at all realistically he comes back, is he still a campaigning force? I think you can say at the last, this set of elections we just had, yeah, he made a bit of difference. Although you can also say that the set before that, the actual Trump presidential election, he was pretty useless, actually came out and was a bit tetchy, particularly young black men who in the end voted in record numbers for Donald Trump. And Obama didn't actually seem to make much of a difference with them, other than perhaps put them off voting Democrats. So the jury's out about how much of a force he is in the modern United States. But the idea of his coming back, I think, is completely for the birds.
- [15:28]
Mariana
What about Michelle Obama herself, though, Anthony? Could she run?
- [15:31]
Anthony
She could run. She has not expressed any interest in running. In fact, she has actively dismissed calls for her to run. If you remember when she gave a. Yeah, they all do that. But. And, you know, she obviously has very, very real political talents. If you remember her speech at the Democratic convention last year, it was very well received. Her speech five years before that virtual Democratic convention speech, also got a lot of Democrats jazzed. But I think she never really liked the spotlight, the political spotlight. She doesn't really want to return to the spotlight. She's very careful about her public appearances, only really coming out during presidential election years. So while she is eligible, I would find it unlikely that she would step into the spotlight again. But I'm glad that we've taken a break from talking about whether Donald Trump will run for a third presidential term to talk about whether Barack Obama would run for a third presidential term. This is a nice change of pace.
- [16:31]
Mariana
Yeah, just shake things up a bit. Marianna, last week on, I mean, obviously there is a sort of slight sense of a generational shift in Democrats. You had Nancy Pelosi announcing that she's standing down. You've got Mamdani winning in New York. Is that a sense that you see that actually, to a lot of young voters in America now, you know, Barack Obama is the old guy, you know, is there a generational shift going on, do you think?
- [16:56]
Matt Chorley
Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I mean, we chatted about it quite a lot. We did this episode which was very well felt very late New York time, because I just. I just got there and I could hear, like, loads of people cheering in Brooklyn and Williamsburg, where I was staying, and when Mandami had won the election for mayor there. And I think, you know, we chatted about it quite extensively. But that Mandami feels like he has a new strategy, one that is perhaps capturing an energy in a way that Obama succeeded in doing when he became president. But obviously on a different kind of, in a different forum, which is New York, which is not as Anthony's pointed out quite a lot, necessarily. One that would work everywhere and would apply everywhere. But there is that real sense of like. Right. He actually has got good at what I'd say is kind of gaming the social media algorithm, making sure his content is authentic and genuine and actually on point, not sort of a bit passe, which kind of. Kamala Harris made the mistake of of sort of trying to be too social media and then that a bit. She was being a bit bossing the Internet, Matt, as we would say, whereas Mandami was actually bossing the Internet. And so I think, I think that there's a new blueprint that is emerging for how to be a Democrat in the way Mandami is, that really excites people. But whether he. Well, and we know that he. In the current climate, he couldn't run to be president anyway because of where he was born. But that could be a blueprint in which to build. Yeah. A new generation of Democrats who perhaps evolve on from Nancy Pelosi and Obama and are native to the social media age.
- [18:30]
Mariana
Let's move on and talk about your other mates, Marianne. Elon, it's time for this klaxon.
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Matt Chorley
Elon, oh my gosh, you so uncannily sound the same.
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Mariana
Now, don't worry, I'm not going to try and explain how big a trillion dollars is again, which I tried to do on Newsnight on Friday night. And I think going to. We're made matters more complicated worse. It was after somebody wrote in the script that if one grain of rice is $1, a million grains of rice is the same weight as a four year old. So a trillion would be a million four year olds made of rice. And I just wasn't sure that that was helping you really picture how big that pay packet would be.
- [19:13]
Matt Chorley
That is so bizarre.
- [19:14]
Mariana
Anyway, that's news night for you, Elon Musk. Instead, we want to talk about. Because he's launched Grokipedia, which is a rival to Wikipedia, which he calls Wokipedia. It's all AI generated and he says his goal is to provide the truth and purge the propaganda from the online encyclopedias. Ray has been in touch says, I wondered what you think of the concern of myself and others may be entering a new era of what might be labeled tech fascism. We have Elon Musk using X as a propaganda machine for far right movements. He has also just launched an alternative to Wikipedia. And we have got Peter Thiel and other tech billionaires building surveillance and military machinery for the authoritarian regime of Donald Trump. What do you think?
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Matt Chorley
Very good question.
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Mariana
We should obviously point out they would Musk, Thiel and the rest would refute allegations of being fascists. And that's Ray's view.
- [19:59]
Matt Chorley
And not the BBC.
- [20:00]
Mariana
Not the BBC's.
- [20:01]
Matt Chorley
And it's worth saying as well, when I say a very good question, it's not because I agree with Ray, it's because I think it's an interesting thing for us to talk about.
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Justin Webb
Everyone's being so cautious today, aren't they?
- [20:09]
Mariana
I wonder why after all those caveats, we've run out of time.
- [20:14]
Matt Chorley
But what I would say, and I think this is why this is so interesting, interesting to talk about is first of all, I think that Wikipedia in general has, has often been seen as quite a neutral place actually. Like it, it essentially is run by volunteers, it relies on donations and a lot of people who contribute to the pages are basically just kind of compiling together open source links that they can find on the Internet. So these kind of accusations of Wikipedia being Wokopedia feel like versus some other social media platforms where there are arguments to be made that there's been say biased moderation or other things like that. I mean Wikipedia generally has, has escaped a lot of that heat, but not now because of Elon Musk. What I think is at the heart of this actually, and this question is that when we talk about for example, something like grok, which is AI, or when we talk about algorithms, the recommendation systems which are also, also AI, can AI ever be sort of impartial? And actually this is the issue is, is that a lot of this technology will either it's drawing from a, when it comes to generative AI, it's drawing from a kind of base of content and it depends on what content is kind of being fed into the model and how it, and how it then interprets that and spits it back out again. And then when it comes to the kind of algorithmic systems, they thrive off outrage and reaction. And that can be on either side of the political spectrum, but ultimately on extremes. And so impartial nuance tends to get a bit lost. And so I think when Ray uses that term, tech fascism, I'd say it's more so the way that it's not necessarily fascism, it's just the way that technology favors outrage and extremes and, and the models off which it operates. And actually often grok, which is this AI tool on X, disagrees quite strongly with some of the MAGA influencers and Elon Musk as well, because it's ultimately drawing off a kind of wider database. And you can't always. Well, you can't necessarily control what it does or says. But, but, but I think that we're entering this world where, you know, it's like everything is set up in opposition to each other. So it's Wikipedia versus Crokopedia. And that is, I think for me, a product of this algorithmic system which favors kind of in and out groups and extremes on either side and there's just not any room for anything in the middle.
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Mariana
I was just having a look at Crookopedia. I've just looked up myself. It's incredibly even I can't be bothered wading through all that. I mean it does have. It's just like an extended version of Wikipedia.
- [22:39]
Matt Chorley
Yeah, and there's also, I mean, and this also raises another question which is like how, how does, how does it compile? Like what, what data is it working off? Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, Peter Thiel has. There's been various criticisms of Palantir, the technology firm that he is in charge of, because of what data it uses, and concerns about privacy and things like that. So all of that is at play here as well, which is the same with the algorithms because they figure out loads about how we behave and what we do.
- [23:07]
Mariana
There's a brilliant sentence here. External influences from television, including the Two Ronnies during his youth and later, if I got news for you, introduced him to satirical human political commentary, fostering interest that contrasted with his rural trade orientated upbringing. Yeah, I think I've said once that.
- [23:24]
Justin Webb
I grew up right.
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Matt Chorley
Trade oriented upbringing.
- [23:27]
Mariana
Well, my father wasn't a toolmaker. I can't make, I can't make that claim. It's interesting, this Gokipedia thing though, Justin. I had interviewed Jimmy Wales a couple of weeks ago and asked me about exactly this and how worried was he and he said, not really. Elon Musk is about to find out how difficult it is to run a, an enormous online encyclopedia.
- [23:43]
Matt Chorley
You can control AI as well.
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Justin Webb
Yeah, well, I mean, look at how difficult it is to control the BBC and what it says about various things. Well, it's true, isn't it? I mean, anyone is in charge.
- [23:51]
Mariana
I'd like to make clear those are the views of Justin Webb.
- [23:54]
Justin Webb
Anyone is in charge of a lot of a large organization finds it difficult and bits of the organization go off in different directions. And the idea, I mean, you know, to go back to that fascism word, I think we're a little way off that anywhere in the modern media setup. There are all sorts of imperfections with it, to put it mildly. But there are also abilities to, to find out things.
- [24:16]
Matt Chorley
But, but Justin, the, the thing that I think is important is that a media organization like the BBC is run by human beings. And, and the difference.
- [24:25]
Justin Webb
What are you suggesting about Elon Musk?
- [24:27]
Matt Chorley
Well, no, no, it's. But it's more like AI kind of takes on. It's a force of its own. It's like you can feed things in but ultimately it's a bit of a black box and I think that's the issue really is what, what is it going to spit out? And you can control some of the inputs but you will reach a point certainly where it becomes so unwieldy and big that you can't. And that's not to say that the media gets things right, but it's just a kind of different kettle of fish, isn't it?
- [24:47]
Mariana
Are you logging onto a glockipedia, Anthony?
- [24:50]
Anthony
I am and I don't have an entry so no.
- [24:52]
Mariana
I was just having a look at Mariana's.
- [24:54]
Matt Chorley
Oh mine. Awful.
- [24:59]
Mariana
I think it says that you've shared. Few personal details will be publicly shared. Although your early years involved bonding with your father, watching Tottenham hot sport football matches, is that right?
- [25:07]
Matt Chorley
Yeah, that's correct.
- [25:08]
Mariana
This anecdote drawn from self reported interviews provides limited insight into her former non professional experiences prior to schooling. There we are.
- [25:16]
Justin Webb
It's not bad, isn't it? Right here we're off air with Matt Chorley off our live air on 5live. And Mariana has had to go off and do other things as she so often does. But Anthony is still very much on the line and so am I and I, I just think we all anth before we let people go we ought to think a little bit more about what's going on with the shutdown because it is number one, it's such an obviously important thing. It's hugely important politically. It's hugely important to people's individual lives. As we were saying on air with Matt Chorley. But also it does appear to be, I mean is it fair to say it is coming gradually now to an end?
- [25:58]
Anthony
It appears that way. I mean as we're recording this, the Senate is still working through the details of its plan to reopen the government. They haven't had a final vote on it, but they had a preliminary vote where eight Democrats sided with all but one Republican to vote for procedural thing to start reopening the government. So it looks like there is now a 60 out of 100 vote majority overcoming the parliamentary block that the Democrats had put on in order to pass something that will reopen the government. The framework of the plan would be funding all aspects of the federal government through the end of January and then funding some portions of the government through the end of September, including Veterans affairs, agriculture, which includes these food price supports, food stamp aid to low income people. And that would keep going even if we get to the end of January and we have another shutdown then, but the House still has to vote on it. That's not going to happen for another couple of days. And then Donald Trump of course, has to sign it into law. So we see an off ramp, but we're still kind of in the middle of resolving it.
- [27:08]
Justin Webb
But is it also the Democrats or some Democrats blinking in a way that other Democrats will say, oh, for goodness sake, you should have held your line because that's the danger, isn't it? It sort of reintroduces a kind of civil war onto the Democratic side of this when they had been so decided this time round. And of course they decided against it last time round, but this time round they decided to make a stand and now the stand is crumbling. Or is that the wrong way of seeing it?
- [27:35]
Anthony
No, I think that's exactly what is happening right now. I mean, we're less than a week removed from those electoral victories that the Democrats have that we talked about in these off year elections in places like Virginia and New Jersey and Pennsylvania and Georgia and Mississippi. But, but Democrats already, particularly those on the left, are up in arms about what they see as a Democratic fold, that a certain number of Democrats, not all of them, not all of them in the Senate, but enough, mostly centrists, mostly the senators who are either retiring or aren't up for reelection for several years. They were the ones who joined, broke ranks and joined with Republicans to vote to reopen the government. And what they got in return was not what they were demanding. They wanted an extension of these health insurance subsidies to help low income Americans pay for health insurance. Americans who are looking at their monthly health insurance premiums go up double, triple, quadrupled, 1,000, more than $1,000 a month. And they didn't get that. Republicans, all they agreed to was to hold a vote in the Senate sometime before December, no guarantees that that vote extend the subsidies would pass. No guarantees that there would be a vote in the House which would also have to approve this to extend the guarantees. So it has some on the left wondering why they did this. If they went 40 days holding the line trying to get attention on health insurance costs and these subsidies and then to back away from it with no guarantee that they were going to get what they want. They feel like that was, was Democrats, some Democrats blinking. And once again they're questioning the spine of Democratic leadership and the willingness to fight this thing to a conclusion when in their view, Republicans and Donald Trump were on the ropes.
- [29:24]
Justin Webb
Yeah, but then there's another group, isn't there, within the Democratic Party who say maybe they don't say this publicly so much, but behind the scenes they say, hmm, hang on a second, maybe it's not such a bad idea to let our enemies do something that is incredibly foolish for their long term electoral prospects and we ought to just let them do it. In other words, those terrible added cost to a group of people who may well be Republican voters in the modern era, mightn't they, Anthony? And that. So there's a sort of, it's even more complicated when it comes, never mind the ethics of it and the policy of it, to the kind of electoral thinking behind it, the politics of it, when it comes to who supports you and who's damaged by it. That's also quite complicated.
- [30:09]
Anthony
Yeah. If you look at this in the best possible light for Democrats and for the Democrats who decided to vote to reopen the government, it is that they made these health insurance subsidies a central issue. They elevated it and put it in people's minds and pinned the blame on Republicans for not extending them. That's why you see people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, the firebrand Republican congresswoman from Georgia, saying that not extending these subsidies are hurting Trump's own voters, white working class voters who rely on them to help pay for insurance. And that is going to have a political price for Republicans going forward. So they didn't get what they wanted, but they might have made some long term headway into getting Republicans to shoulder the blame for this. And if you look at Donald Trump's approval ratings over the course of the shutdown, they did drop. And Republicans did lose, by and large, last week's mid off year election. So there are some benefits, I think, in Democrats views to this fight, even if they didn't get the big prize that they wanted, which was an agreement to extend these subsidies.
- [31:18]
Justin Webb
Yeah, Trump was getting quite panicky, wasn't he? He was telling Republican Party senators to bin the whole thing, get rid of the filibuster. So this would allow them then by just a majority vote in the Senate to pass the House's bill and get the whole thing over. And that of course would then lead potentially to a Democratic party Senate in the longer term future being able to do exactly the same thing that it wanted to do and to do it much more easily than it can be done now. And some people saying that'd be a disaster. And lots of Republicans kind of sitting on their hands, including I think I'm right in saying John Thune, the boss, very unkeen to do that. But I mean, it had led to a real kind of, of argument within the Republican Party.
- [32:06]
Anthony
Right. And that's why there were some Democrats saying, hey, you know, they're starting to break ranks, they're starting to turn on each other on this filibuster. Trump was also suggesting maybe giving these health insurance subsidies directly to the American people. So he was reaching for some sort of a solution on health insurance subsidies. So why back down now? But I think as we discussed dust on air, the reality of this was that there were a lot of people really suffering during this shutdown. And, you know, it's all well and good to say, you know, we got to steal our spines and fight really hard. And you know, now's not the time to back away when you're not the one who has gone without pay for a month. And there were hundreds of thousands who, who had gone without pay and were really starting to suffer and wonder, you know, how they would make ends meet. And I think there was a certain sort of sympathy for their plight among some Democrats and a feeling that the point had been made and it was time to get these people paid and time to ensure that low income Americans who are on food stamps, who are on this food support, get the subsidies to get the money they need to pay for food and not go hungry. That was the ultimate driving force to back down along with, you know, the chaos that was happening with air travel just this weekend with thousands of flights being canceled or delayed.
- [33:31]
Justin Webb
Okay, that's it, Anthony. We'll let you go. Thanks. Bye bye.
- [33:35]
Anthony
Bye. All.
- [33:38]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
AmericasT from BBC News.
- [33:41]
Justin Webb
Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an ameracaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. You have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week, actually on the podcast. So keep them coming. You can join the online community as well. On Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon, so until then, see you later. Bye.
- [34:38]
Matt Chorley
We got a call from the bank and said, are you aware that there's.
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Anthony
No funds in this account?
- [34:43]
Matt Chorley
A string of victims across the US Stretching from coast to coast.
- [34:47]
Anthony
The amount of victims in such a.
- [34:48]
Justin Webb
Short time was unbelievable.
- [34:50]
Matt Chorley
Real people losing real money. But the criminals are ghosts. The anger, the frustration, the fear. This is evil.
- [34:57]
Mariana
Core, the story of a cybercrime case that stretches from small town America to.
- [35:01]
Justin Webb
The back streets of Moscow.
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Matt Chorley
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.