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Americanswers…on 5 Live! Who is Tyler Robinson, Charlie Kirk’s suspected killer?
00:44:19
Plus, behind the scenes of Trump’s last state visit and what might happen this week?
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- [00:00]
Justin Webb
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:07]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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- [01:05]
Sarah Smith
Hello. As you may be very well aware, on Mondays we join Matt Charlie on five Live and answer the questions that you have sent in. And this week we have had an overwhelming response, people wanting to know more about Tyler Robinson, the suspected gunman who has been arrested for the assassination of Charlie Kirk in Utah last week. So we'll be discussing what we know about and what we've learned about his potential motives, what clues there are out there, his family background, anything we gleaned so far that would try to lead us to understand what happened there. But also at the same time, it's worth reflecting on, and we do. The hate, the division, the polarization that has been sparked by this killing, which is so much more extreme than anything I've witnessed in America before, and goes right to the top as well. It's actually worrying the calls for vengeance and violence that we're seeing in the light of this murder. And of course, we can't help but mention Peter Mandelson, the ex British ambassador to Washington so dramatically sacked last week just before Donald Trump is due to arrive in the UK on a very high profile state visit. We hear for the first time from Keir Starmer since he sacked Peter Mandelson. During the episode and afterwards we are able to talk to somebody who knows exactly what it's like trying to put together a state visit for Donald Trump. Lord Derecht, Kim Darrach, who was the British Emperor ambassador in the United States during Donald Trump's first term. He planned the first state visit and he comes in to give us all the behind the scenes gossip on exactly what it's like putting together an event like this. You'll hear from him soon. But first, here's me, Justin and Mariana talking to Matt Charlie on Five Live. Welcome to America. Answers.
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Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
AmericasT AmericaT From BBC News, when.
- [02:59]
Sarah Smith
Donald Trump calls, they say, yes sir, right away, sir.
- [03:03]
Mariana Mazzucato
Happy to lick your boot, sir.
- [03:05]
Kim Darroch
We are the sickest in the world.
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Justin Chorley
Oh dear.
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Sarah Smith
Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry?
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Mariana Mazzucato
Of course the President supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.
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Justin Webb
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [03:23]
Justin Chorley
We begin of course with the big state visit. A huge moment, a huge honor as our special guest sweeps into the United States of America. The horse drawn carriage just pulling up now. Crowds up to one deep in places. Yeah, there they are. They're very excited, the crowds. Yeah, of course, traveling from America, but still strong ties to the UK too. Scotland especially. We are rolling out the red carpet for President of the US Bureau of the BBC. Sarah Smith is here.
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Sarah Smith
Thank you, Matt. Charlie, thank you, thank you. I shall give a regal wave to everybody who cannot see me on the radio. AIRW is exciting.
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Justin Chorley
Almost. Almost as exciting as Mariana being here.
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Mariana Mazzucato
I know I was it. It was enough for me to make the pilgrimage over.
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Justin Chorley
We finally worked out what we need to do. We need to get Sarah to come all the way from America for you to come all the way for Broadcasting House.
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Mariana Mazzucato
And Justin's here as well.
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Justin Webb
Yeah, he's a bit more of a.
- [04:23]
Mariana Mazzucato
Reliable figure in this.
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Justin Chorley
Reliable.
- [04:24]
Justin Webb
A steady don't work in the day.
- [04:28]
Justin Chorley
Enjoying daylight hours like a vampire. New titles. Did you enjoy the new Metacast titles?
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Justin Webb
Was the slide guitar still or was that gone?
- [04:37]
Justin Chorley
Yeah, the music was still there.
- [04:38]
Justin Webb
Oh, was it still there?
- [04:40]
Justin Chorley
As listeners would probably understand, the biggest topic in the AmericasT inbox by miles over the weekend has been the death of Charlie Kirk and the impact that's having on American politics. Loads and loads of you getting in touch after he was shot in Utah last week. A huge figure in American politics, controversial among some for his right wing views, but credited by Trump for helping to win his second term. So let's start with an email from Jason. He says, I'm a 36 year old dad of three girls here in the UK. This past Wednesday, sitting with my wife, I found myself in tears in a way I haven't for years. I'm a Christian and politically conservative, but that's not why I enjoyed listening to Charlie Kirk. What drew me in was the way he modeled the kind of political debate I long to see in the world. Principled, respectful, and willing to engage. We also heard from Michelle on discord, who said, is anyone else already nauseated by the deification of Charlie Kirk? I don't condone or approve of any death, but hate speech will only create more hate. If anyone needs to dial down the rhetoric, it's the very people who turned it up to 11 in the first place. And an awful lot of similar responses. What is the mood like in America before you left, Sarah?
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Sarah Smith
Completely different from that. So there's two people who disagree with each other about this story, but doing it in a respectful way, which says, of course they don't condone or approve of anything that's happened of political violence of any kind. Whether you agreed with Charlie Kirk or not, what's happening in America is frankly frightening. Lots of people online, as you might expect, but also on television and in the public square, right up to the president himself, are using dangerous language about this, where they are saying they're blaming the other side, both of them. Donald Trump says if you call people fascists and Nazis, that's rhetoric that basically created the atmosphere that Charlie Kirk killed. Others are going further and saying that everybody, from antifa, antifascist protesters to the whole of the left, to the whole of the Democratic Party, there needs to be a legal crackdown on now because they're dangerous. But it's not just the right who are sounding vengeful. On the left, there has been some appalling behavior where people have been celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk because they didn't agree with his views, laughing about the fact that he supported gun rights and said you had to tolerate a few deaths a year in order to be able to have guns in the Second Amendment. And also blaming the right in a way that I have. Of course, we talk about polarized politics all the time. I have never seen it to the point where the right say anyone who disagrees with them has created a climate of violence. And the left are responding to that, frankly, by behaving about as badly as you could possibly imagine in those circumstances. And if this doesn't result in other kinds of violent incidents or, please God, not another death, I will be very surprised.
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Justin Chorley
And how much of this is being fueled online? Mariana?
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Mariana Mazzucato
It's really interesting because so much of. I mean, if you. If you look at the timeline here, so the shooting happens, Charlie Kirk is killed. You've then got this, which we were chatting about on the last episode of the podcast You've got this really extreme division that's becoming even more entrenched, where you've got people on the right accusing people of the left of stoking hatred and contributing to this violence. And you've got people on the left accusing the right of having stoked that violence in the first place. And this back and forth that's occurring in everyone's echo chambers, then we get this new information that comes out. So we find out that Tyler Robinson, 22, from Utah is the person who has been arrested and charged with this. And investigators say his. His dad turned him in or got him to kind of agree to. To come in, and they thanked the family for their courage here. And you've had everybody then pouring over the. Whatever details they can possibly find about Tyler Robinson. And I know we're going to go into a little bit more detail about perhaps the translation that's required of some of the details that we know about this.
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Justin Chorley
Well, in fact, let's bring in Judy, because we've got Judy on the line. Hi, Judy.
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Listener/Caller
Hello.
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Justin Chorley
What is your question, which I think leads nicely from what Mariana was saying?
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Listener/Caller
Right you are. My question is what I thought about yesterday, and that is it's about the reporting of the shooting of Charlie Kirk by Tyler Robinson. I've read a number of Occupy Democrats posts, and there I read that Tyler was not, as far as we know, a Democrat, but his family are all Republicans. This wasn't reported on the news. People have assumed Tyler was a Democrat. I think it seems Republicans, and Trump especially, are unjustifiably using the shooting as an excuse to whip up hostility against Democrats, Democrats, before it's known who exactly Tyler Robinson is. And the scrolls on the bullet casing suggest he may be a follower of Nick Fuentes. We just don't know. Okay, that's it, really.
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Justin Chorley
Thank you.
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Mariana Mazzucato
Thank you so much. It's a really good question. I think it's probably the question that everybody is asking. And what you've identified there, Judy, I think, is the way that everybody is taking the bits of this that fit their narrative and fit. Fitting it to their narrative and being like, Right, so.
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Justin Chorley
And then overlooking the bit.
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Mariana Mazzucato
Yeah, yeah. So it must be the case that he hated fascism, or it must be the case that he was associated with people on the alt right or it must be whatever thing is useful. I think there are as. As human beings in general, but particularly on the Internet, we don't like to sit with any amount of uncertainty. And at the moment, there are some kind of unanswered Questions here. If. If I just try and explain in as quick a way as I can, because it's actually really complicated, even from my point of view, and I spend too much time on social media, but I'm. Compared to me, these people spend way too much time on social media. I think the only conclusion that we can draw about Tyler Robinson from the engravings, if he was the one responsible for them on the bullet cases, is that he was incredibly online. And by incredibly online, I don't mean that he spent all his time on X or TikTok or any of the mainstream platforms, but that he was frequenting corners of the Internet, like message boards, places where people use. So that there are certain phrases on the. On the bullet cases. For example, this notices bulges. Oh, well, what's this? That connects to this community called the furry community. And I can already see Justin's like, oh, do I know this? Which is kind of about, like, cutesy animals, like anthropomorphic kind of animal characters and. But he could have been trolling that community or not. Then there's various references to fascism. Like the second one that says, hey, fascist, catch. But it has these keyboard symbols which are actually from. Gamers were quick to point out from this. This video game, which is called Helldivers 2, which is kind of like a satire of fascism, sort of. And then there's this Ciao Bella song. So all you can really tell is that he. He was putting all these references in which people could use how they choose to, but that a lot of it kind of looks like trolling. Like trolling in its raw sense, which is not sending people online abuse. It's like winding everyone up.
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Justin Webb
Don't we have to say, take a step back. I mean, he was messed up. He was a messed up young kid. I mean, the politics of it, whether he's a Democrat, registered Republican, or registered.
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Mariana Mazzucato
Democrat, but people don't like that. It's like people don't want people who have got a political agenda for whatever reason here. Maybe they're just very distressed by it, or maybe they genuinely have another motive. I mean, they're gonna take this stuff. And the problem is you then get the fringes of the Internet spilling into the real world and people struggling to decipher.
- [12:12]
Justin Webb
He had gone to a terrible place, and the terrible place is social media, and that's where he had gone. And all of these things that he was referring to that you've just explained to us a part of it. He was also, you know, brought up, it would seem, within the Mormon faith. He was, according to Spencer Cox, the governor, he was living romantically with someone who was transgender or wanted to be transgender. That would be something that would be outside the bounds of normal behavior in the Mormon Church. There are all sorts of issues then about how he would have felt about his life and about his family and about his faith or former faith. I mean, there are a lot of really messed up people. And I think you know the answer to the question. I think, in a sense, you're quite right. But I don't think you can make any assumptions at all about a kind of political manifesto. But what you can say is that there's an atmosphere of violence, stoked by both sides. And this isn't the kind of BBC both sidesism it genuinely is, as Sarah was explaining, stoked by. By both sides, that plays on the minds of these damaged individuals and makes them do what they do.
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Mariana Mazzucato
And if you were going to extrapolate this at all, and we don't extrapolate things, but if you were going to kind of analyze what this could tell us, I think one of the only takeaways, other than that he spent a lot of time online, is that if you were a troll looking to troll in that pure sense, the idea that we now, as BBC presenters are sitting here in a 5 live studio explaining, like, any of these memes, like the last one that said if you read this, you are gay. Lmao. Laughing my ass off. It's like. It's like pure trolling. In that sense. Again, we might never know.
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Dave Rubin
But also.
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Justin Chorley
So the big difference between the US and the UK is that in the uk, if there was a case like this and someone had been charged, no one would talk about it because there's contempt of court laws. You definitely wouldn't have the Prime Minister, you know, you wouldn't have senior politicians and public figures going, oh, I think he probably did it for this reason that. I mean, it was even that press conference on Friday was wild with the amount of detail that the police and the governor were going into.
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Sarah Smith
Yeah, we almost certainly wouldn't already know what was written on the bullet case, for instance, if we were covering this here. And there will be commentary all the way through this trial as and when it ever comes to court, which I fear and suspect will not help. Now, Governor Spencer Cox, though, the Utah governor, who's been speaking out quite a lot because that's where it happened, I'd not come across him before. He is a very impressive man who has done a terrific job of saying, could everybody, everybody please Calm down. That violence can metastasize as hate can through the community, and that we're living in dangerous times and we need to cool it. But the response from Republicans, I mean, and Donald Trump hasn't sounded very approving of him either. And from just below Donald Trump, he's getting a world of hate now for daring to say that killing your political opponents isn't a good idea.
- [15:01]
Justin Webb
I do wonder. It's a bit off topic. I do wonder if Cox, I mean, if he wants to. I don't know anything about him. He's quite young. He's only. And he said, you know, there is a difference between speech and violence and we ought to know that there is a difference. Violence is violence. We know what violence is. Speech is not violence. So he's got kind of tough messages for everyone across the board. He's expressed them calmly, cogently. Does he, does he run? Does he run for the nomination?
- [15:25]
Mariana Mazzucato
The problem is, though, as well, and you know, the comments he made, which received quite a lot of praise, but also criticism online, again, they feed into this very fragmented echo chamber world of social media algorithm algorithms where people are constantly being promoted. The stuff that is provocative, that is rage bait, that is, makes you angry and upset. That is how. That's the design of the sites. And so I really think that we can't overlook, not that anger and violence, as we chatted about before, haven't existed for many, many, many, many centuries, but just the role that social media is playing in even that, which I think if you watched it, lots of people would have turned around and said, oh, that, that seems quite, quite a reasonable viewpoint to have. Like, everyone just needs to calm down a bit. Even online, it was being picked and poured over again and then further fueling that division that existed because it's kind of like these in out groups that you're in teams and if your team has decided something and you have to stick with your team no matter what, even when it starts to become unreasonable or just way too heated, and then.
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Justin Chorley
Before you know, you've gone down such a sort of rabbit hole of everything, who knows what.
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Mariana Mazzucato
Yeah, exactly.
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Justin Chorley
We've had quite a lot of questions as well about guns in America following the shooting of Charlie Kirk, in part. So email from Kate in Swansea says, in your last episode, you all sounded scandal by the Democrat Congresswoman Alexandra Ocasio Cortez, because what she said after Kirk's killing, so after last week, she said, every single day there are people in this building, as in Congress, that continue to vote against doing anything. They vote against universal background checks. They continue to support legislation and also remove any way to block the mentally ill, to block extremists, to block people with histories and records of domestic violence from getting guns in their hands. So are we going to do something about this or not? So Kate's email says, if we heard the move correctly, and you were. Are scandalised, we're wondering why, to us, Ms. Orcasio Cortez's calls for action on US gun laws seems totally understandable following the deaths by guns of children and Mr. Kirk in the space of a week. I also wanna bring in a clip here because on Friday night on Newsnight, I spoke to another conservative podcast host, Dave Rubin, who was a friend of Charlie Kirk's, and I asked him if the death of his friend Charlie Kirk had made him think again at all about access to guns.
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Dave Rubin
No, absolutely not. And I think that in your country a lot more. There would be a better respect for free speech, quite frankly, and there would be more people who would feel safe if they had more access to guns and felt that they could defend themselves. There are weapons that will kill people, but infringing on our Second Amendment rights, which I know that there's a gut impulse to do right now, would be the worst thing and certainly not something Charlie would be for.
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Sarah Smith
Interesting point. Not something Charlie would be for. And there is this clip that's been doing the rounds enormously where he is on stage at a different event, Charlie Kirk himself saying, Look, 50,000 people a year get killed in automobile accidents. And we don't talk about banning cars. Some people get killed every year by guns. We shouldn't therefore be talking about banning guns. And he says there will always be a certain number of gun deaths and that is acceptable in order for us to be able to exercise our Second Amendment rights and have guns ourselves. That was his view. Of course, it's not one that's widely shared in the United Kingdom. But I mean, your guess, there was a Dave Rubin, absolutely right. It's not what Charlie would have wanted. Wanted to be talking about. I think it was me that was sounding scandalized about Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and what she said. I backed you up because she went.
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Mariana Mazzucato
On, that's the less scandalized of the group.
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Sarah Smith
Completely fair point to say, you know, we're always trying to get restrictions on guns, on background checks and trying to block the mentally ill from getting guns, and Republicans generally vote against it. What she went on to say was anybody who has voted against these restrictions is personally to blame for what had happened to Charlie Kerr. And that's the kind of finger pointing and demonizing that is not helping take the heat out of this situation. That is exactly the sort of thing that the left do not need to be doing in response to the accusations that were coming from the White House. That's what I was scandalizing.
- [19:23]
Justin Webb
And my point was that if you want to run for president, which I think we agree she probably does in 28, you think of Reagan at his best, Clinton at his best. You think certainly of Obama when he talked about race. You deliver difficult messages to your own side. And if you assume in this, your own side is people who want gun reform, and actually a majority of Americans, you could argue, want gun reform. So it's a perfectly legitimate case to make. But there is a moment, and what that statement was lacking was any understanding that a young man with two little kids and a wife had been shot who was doing nothing more than speaking at a university. And I think that that's the difficulty for her when it comes to running for president and for pulling in some support, not just from her own side, but from the other side, too, which, at least in the old days, is something a president used to do. Although, of course, you know, you could argue you don't need to do it anymore.
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Mariana Mazzucato
Well, that was kind of my point was that, like, the problem is that she's also playing to her. I mean, I love that we're just rehashing what we already said, but that she is playing to her echo chamber because she'll be more criticized for not being like that by some of the people who very strongly support her. Which isn't to say that it's the right moment or thing to do.
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Justin Webb
I don't think any of us says right or wrong. It just feels sort of politically inept. Or maybe not. You're saying maybe not.
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Sarah Smith
You have to reach beyond your own echo chamber. I was thinking over the weekend, you'll remember just in the speech Bill Clinton made after the Oklahoma bombing, the address to the joint houses of Congress that Obama made after Gabby Giffords, the Democratic representative in Arizona, was shot, those were moments of national unity where president stood up with great rhetoric and was able to talk about healing, about bringing people together, about the greater project of democracy, about the bigger idea of America that could survive these kind of moments. That is the opposite of what we've heard in the last few days, unfortunately.
- [21:19]
Justin Chorley
So why wouldn't Donald Trump do that? Because you're right, the president has a unique place in a position to do that to sort of rise above? Is it just because it's not in his nature? Is it because he's not running again? That is a choice by him personally, isn't it?
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Sarah Smith
I think there's lots and lots of reasons. I think he does feel this way in terms of it being them and us. And I think he feels it personally acutely because he was so very nearly killed. I mean, he was quite changed apparently by the fact that one of the two attempts on his life last year came so very close. So there is something viscerally personal about it. And he was a personal good friend of Charlie Kirk. So this is remarkable, remarkably close. But he is, he is a very partisan person. So you wouldn't expect him because when he listed all of the events of political violence there had been recently, it was all against Republicans and he missed out some really awful things as Minnesota lawmakers that were shot in their own homes just a few months ago didn't happen to mention them. But it plays into his wider crackdown on crime. You know, this has happened at a time when, as you know, he's got the National Guard on the streets of Washington, he's talking about sending them into Memphis, possibly back to la. He's wanting to take personal executive control of law enforcement across the United States. This goes to this idea of him as the President who's not only cracking down on crime, but taking charge of all of this in a highly partisan way that will suit his politics for the next nearly three and a half years. You're right, he's not running again, but he's got a long time left in office in which he's, he's gathering more and more power towards himself as he's doing it. And this will not hurt in that enterprise.
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Justin Chorley
Is there anyone calling for gun control online?
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Mariana Mazzucato
Yeah, I would actually say, and I think this, this probably backs up what we were mentioning about the AOC might be playing to her echo chamber that in the much more left leaning groups on social media, I've seen quite a lot of videos on Tick Tock, for example, of younger people saying, well, I mean they haven't gone as far necessarily as condemning the killing of Charlie Kirk, although they haven't said that they think it's a good thing, but they have kind of said, well, this is a byproduct of like it would be true to say that you shouldn't kill people. But also Charlie Kirk is someone who advocated for guns and they felt wasn't as empathetic as he could have been when other People like children, for example, were killed in mass shootings and. And that this is kind of the product of it. It type thing. There's been quite a lot of that chat and analysis, which, again, some people have found very offensive, other people think is justified because it's a political argument. And that sort of is the. I would say that the. It feels like it's got a little bit less heated probably over the past, like, day or so, I think, because it's almost confused people a bit, the information about Tyler Robinson, that they're kind of all a bit like, oh, discombobulated. Yeah. We're not quite sure what to do with this.
- [24:10]
Justin Chorley
Just very briefly, Justin, what do you make of Dave Rubin's suggestion that free speech would be better protected in the UK if we all had more access to government?
- [24:17]
Justin Webb
What I make of it is this, that there is a cultural rift between the United States and the United Kingdom. Sarah will be very aware of this, which you only fully grasp when you live there for a bit. And this is one of those things. Religion is another religiosity. Open talk of religious faith, I think is another thing that divides us. But, you know, it's not just tomato, tomato. There are a whole load of things that are really, really profound and this belief, and it's a genuine belief. I don't think Dave Rubin was kind of messing around when he said that to you. He probably genuinely thinks that if we all had guns in this studio, we'd be safer and. And would get on better.
- [24:56]
Mariana Mazzucato
But, you know, it's such an alien idea to people.
- [24:59]
Justin Webb
I know.
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Justin Chorley
Exactly. And I suppose it's that thing is the cultural connections. Oh, we watch the same telly and we eat the same food and all that, and then you're confronted with something like that. And it was a really striking moment, why I wanted to play it. Now, the reason that Sarah is here is because President Trump arrives in the UK for his state visit on Tuesday night. But it's all been a bit overshadowed by the departure of Britain's ambassador to the us, Peter Manelson, over his friendship, ongoing friendship, it turned out, with the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Well, we've just heard from Keir Starmer. He's been speaking to reporters about his decision to fire Lord Manusen.
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Keir Starmer
Had I known then what I know now, I'd have never appointed him. Because what emerged last week were emails, Bloomberg emails, which showed that the nature and extent of the relationship that Peter Mandelson had with Epstein was far different to what I had understood to be the position when I appointed him. On top of that, what the email showed was he was not only questioning, but wanting to challenge the conviction of Epstein at the time. That, for me, went and cut across the whole approach that I've taken on violence against women and girls for many years, and this government's approach on top of that. What emerged last week on Wednesday evening, late, were Peter Manleton's responses to questions that had been put to him by government officials. I looked at those responses and I did not find them at all satisfying. And therefore, on the basis of those three things, the nature and extent of the relationship being far different to what I'd understood to be the position at the point of appointment.
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Justin Chorley
That was Keir Starmer speaking a little earlier about his decision to fire Peter Manderson. Let's go now to Helena in Loughborough, who's got a question about the state visit and Peter Madison and all that. Hi, Helena.
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Listener/Caller
Hi. Yeah, I was just wondering, how awkward is it going to be for Donald Trump? I know he's got very thick skin, but there are certain similarities between Epstein's friendship with him and do you think any questions bearing in mind there probably hasn't been a press conference where I know Kier's just given comments to the press, but when it actually comes to a press conference with Trump and Starmer, do you think the press will be asking awkward questions?
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Justin Chorley
Yeah. It's one thing him doing it to a camera. It's quite different if Donald Trump standing next to him. So what is the choreography for potentially awkward questions this week with Kit between kids? Start with Donald Trump.
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Sarah Smith
So, yes, Wednesday is dedicated to all the royal stuff and all the flummery that we will see. And then a glittering state banquet. Thursday is the more political day. There's a meeting at Chequers and there will be a joint press conference. So the President, the Prime Minister will be stood beside each other and both the American and the British press will be in there and they will take probably lots of questions.
- [28:04]
Justin Webb
Sometimes that's Sarah Smith's question.
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Sarah Smith
Oh, let's hope.
- [28:07]
Justin Webb
Preview.
- [28:08]
Mariana Mazzucato
If anyone's got any ideas, then they can revise.
- [28:11]
Justin Chorley
You can't drop an email. Well, it's not like, you know, what's eight sixes?
- [28:14]
Mariana Mazzucato
Donald Trump's listening to this.
- [28:16]
Justin Chorley
I'm sure he is listening on the plane over.
- [28:19]
Sarah Smith
Yeah. And it is potentially excruciating. This is the problem. And I'm sure this is exactly the conversation that they're having inside number 10 now at the moment as well. And I would imagine that's not the last time you'll hear from Keir Starmer talking about this, because he needs to get these answers out now so that people won't be asking him too many questions about it when he has stood beside Donald Trump. Because although Donald Trump's association was quite different, he is facing his own questions. He's under pressure because he promised to release all of the documents that the American government had on Jeffrey Epstein, largely what was all the evidence that was gathered for the trial that never happened because he killed himself in prison before he went to trial. So that's lots and lots of evidence about victims, about his wrongdoing, about how far it extended, about how long it had been going on. And there's this huge public clamor to get these documents out into the open. But the White House did a U turn on that, having promised to reveal them all. Then earlier this year, they said that they couldn't. And there are still some questions as well over Donald Trump's own associations with Epstein. He fell out with him around about 2004, before his first arrest and conviction. But there is this letter in the infamous birthday book which Donald Trump says is fake. In fact, he says it's a fake thing. It's just that nobody's questioned the authenticity of any other letters that are contained in that book. Book, apparently only Donald Trump's one is fake. So he's still under questions about that. He's suing the Wall street journal for $10 billion for saying that he authored that letter, which is the outline of a naked woman drawn around it. So, yeah, there are many, many things that Donald Trump would rather talk about than Jeffrey Epstein. It's his least favorite topic. So even if the questions are only going to Keir Starmer, it's going to be pretty embarrassing from all concerned.
- [29:56]
Justin Chorley
How big a story was the Mandelson story in the US Time?
- [29:59]
Sarah Smith
Minuscule.
- [30:00]
Justin Chorley
And is that, is that because it's an. It's a small story anyway.
- [30:03]
Sarah Smith
But because.
- [30:03]
Justin Chorley
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:04]
Sarah Smith
Well, two things. Yes, who, who the British ambassador is is not of huge import to even quite a lot of journalists inside Washington, D.C. let alone their listening and viewing public. And the fact that it was over an Epstein scandal might have meant that it would make a small amount of news. But, yeah, it happened within an hour or two of Charlie Kirk being assassinated. So, of course, there was only one, one story in America for the rest of that week.
- [30:28]
Justin Chorley
What would your question be if you got a question at the press conference?
- [30:30]
Justin Webb
Justice I think that the question for Trump, which Sarah kind of alludes to there is. If you believe that the case against you is fakery. Do you also believe, Mr. President, that the case against Peter Mandelson is fakery? And if so, do you think he's been rather hard done by and that. I think. Because I think Trump would be tempted to say, yeah, I like him, he's a handsome fellow, et cetera, et cetera, which he said. And he appears to be, in spite of initial worries about the relationship. It appears, doesn't it, Sarah, there?
- [31:06]
Justin Chorley
He had a lovely action, a beautiful.
- [31:07]
Justin Webb
Accent, beautiful accent, beautiful accent. And I wonder if Trump might be minded to defend Mandelson, actually, which seems to me to be probably the most excruciating outcome.
- [31:19]
Mariana Mazzucato
You wonder with the. I mean, two things. You firstly wonder with the emails as well. Like, this is not just about the birthday book, but the other evidence that's been brought to light in relation to Peter Mandelson. And you might think that Trump will sort of swerve that in so much as is it that useful to him? And that leads to my second point, which brings us back to the titles. The why are we still talking about Epstein? If you were Donald Trump, you'd presumably want to move that conversation on very quickly because the online world, actually because of Charlie Kirk being killed, isn't talking about Epstein in quite the same way. Although I would say that there are some totally unfounded conspiracy theories suggesting that this was all staged because it was part of an attempt to distract from. From everything around Epstein, etc, etc. But you'd imagine that he might want to try and talk about it as little as possible, that you don't know how easy that will be.
- [32:07]
Sarah Smith
There was a case being made by friends of Peter Mandelson around after the birthday book, the emails came out, but before he was sacked. Trying to say, look, it would show it would be very, very difficult for the Prime Minister to do this, especially in advance of the state visit, because essentially, if he is saying any kind of previous association with Epstein is so despicable, you can't be our ambassador. What does that say about Trump's judgment in having previously been a friend with Epstein? Now you can parse the case and you can look at the dates and Mandelstyn kept in touch with him after he had been convicted. Donald Trump had already fallen out with him by then. But these fine details sometimes get lost, both in the heat of a press conferen and also, frankly, in President Trump's mind.
- [32:47]
Justin Webb
But it's quite crucial, isn't it? I mean, the big difference between them is that Peter Manson did stay in touch with him, and Donald Trump, at the moment, it seems, didn't. And of course, the big killer blow for. Well, nothing's a killer blow for Donald Trump, but the big blow to Donald Trump is if something comes out close.
- [33:02]
Mariana Mazzucato
As it's come, I'd say, yeah, I agree with you.
- [33:05]
Justin Webb
But the thing that would be really damaging if it then turned out that he had been in touch with them or somehow. Somehow supported him after the conviction. And at the moment, I'm right in saying I understand there is no such evidence anywhere, because they found out years ago.
- [33:20]
Mariana Mazzucato
And that's what Donald Trump would say as well.
- [33:22]
Sarah Smith
Yeah. And it's not that Donald Trump separated himself from him because he thought he was a sleazeball who was surrounded by women who were far too young. It was because, well. And Virginia Giffre, of all people, who was working at Mar a Lago, was poached by Ghislaine Maxwell to go and work for Jeffrey Epstein instead. And then they didn't speak again after that. That.
- [33:41]
Justin Chorley
Well, it's a great, great question. We've had loads of good questions and we could have carried on talking for ages and ages, but there will be plenty more on AmericasT all this week.
- [33:57]
Justin Webb
Radio Sarah, we've come to another studio. We've finished with Matt Chorley or he's finished with us. I don't know which way around it is, actually. But anyway, so we've finished talking to him.
- [34:04]
Sarah Smith
Mariana has run off.
- [34:06]
Justin Webb
Mariana's run off. Yeah, I've forgotten about Mariana. Yes, she's already hopped in to do something more interesting, at least more interesting to her. But we have someone interesting to talk to, at least briefly about all of this, because Kim Darroch is about to pop into our studio here and he couldn't be in many respects a better person to talk to on the eve.
- [34:24]
Sarah Smith
Of this visit, because it's fascinating to know what goes on behind the scenes when you plan a visit like this, but more particularly if Donald Trump's involved. And of course, Kim Darrow was the ambassador planning the first one.
- [34:36]
Justin Webb
Yeah. And it's also worth saying about Kim before he gets here. He was also. He also came back to Britain, people might remember, in pretty tricky circumstances, where Donald Trump took against him over something he'd written about the Trump administration and Trump supporters and all the rest of it. And he was brought back.
- [34:54]
Sarah Smith
And, well, it was leaks, wasn't it? He had sent cable's communiques back to London, which is what his job is to assess how the Trump administration's going, how people are responding to it. But he'd written them in the candid terms you would expect.
- [35:07]
Justin Webb
There was nothing in them, was there? Just to thinking back, I can't remember exactly what they said, but he basically gave an assessment of the Trump administration.
- [35:14]
Sarah Smith
Not what he would have said to the Washington Post, I'm sure, but nothing particularly shocking or scandalous. But when they were leaked, Donald Trump was most upset about what he perceived as a criticism, and Lord Darrick was pretty quickly withdrawn at the time. Maybe looked like a scandalous kind of exit for a British ambassador leaving Washington. But that's all rather been eclipsed, hasn't it, by what's happened in the last few days?
- [35:37]
Justin Webb
All right. I imagine Lord Derrick is going to be. Be in a good mood then. Let's talk to him. We are in our Westminster studio and that is because Lord Derrick is with us. Lord Derrick, who has very kindly given up at least some of his time to talk about the Trump state visit, because he, Lord Derek, when he was British Ambassador, was the person in charge for the last state visit. And that is only one of your claims to fame, isn't it, in a long diplomatic career. But it's an important one.
- [36:11]
Kim Darroch
Well, it's kind. You say it's an important one. Yes, it's. But one of the things that happened when I was in Washington. There were others.
- [36:17]
Justin Webb
Yes, there were others, weren't there? Your relationship with Donald Trump, it is fair to say, soured after the state religion. A temporary dip, I think a temporary.
- [36:24]
Kim Darroch
Dip which has lasted quite a long time.
- [36:26]
Justin Webb
Does that suggest to us that you might be going back?
- [36:29]
Kim Darroch
I think that you, you know, there is much speculation about what will happen next, but I think you can rule me out.
- [36:35]
Keir Starmer
Yes.
- [36:36]
Justin Webb
It would be the plot twist to end all plot twists, wouldn't it? Yeah. Just a thought, though, that the Civil Service was a bit miffed, we are told behind the scenes, when they chose a political appointment in Peter Mandelson.
- [36:47]
Kim Darroch
If they were miffed, I'm a bit surprised, because there's a long history of political appointments to the Washington job. Sometimes they've worked out well, sometimes they haven't. It's not unreasonable for the Prime Minister to want someone who he knows well, who can ring him up when things are happening and whom he has a lot of personal trust in, to go off to be ambassador for this most important of our bandit relationships. So if there were people miffed, I don't think they should have been, you know, these things. It's up to the Prime Minister of the day.
- [37:20]
Sarah Smith
Peter Mendelssohn's ambassadorship obviously has blown up very spectacularly. But the truth of the matter is he was doing a good job in Washington. He had made good contacts with the White House and with the people around Donald Trump. He seemed to have an extremely good personal relationship with Trump himself. Laughing and joking with him in the Oval Office, seeing him quite frequently. The UK was the first nation, obviously, to sign a trade deal with the Trump administration. They've got other things they're going to announce this week. He's going to have to find somebody who can maintain those relationships with people who are not natural friends of a Labour government.
- [37:57]
Kim Darroch
That's a completely fair comment. There was, you'll recall, a lot of controversy when Peter was first nominated about whether someone from the. A political figure from the center left of British politics was an appropriate appointee for a Trump administration. I think if you look at his track record, as you say, a trade deal that, in terms of the tariff levels on us, is one of the best around, if not the best around, and apparently close relationship with a number of people in the White House, including the President himself, and if reports are correct, the mastermind of a technology agreement that's going to be signed during the state visit. That's not a bad record for eight months or so. All that said, you know, those. Those emails that came out about the relationship, especially relationship with Epstein, post his first conviction, conviction. Epstein's a monster. And it's very difficult to understand, let alone justify, how those emails were sent.
- [38:57]
Justin Webb
Let's turn to the state visit, because I said at the beginning you were involved in the last one. And when I say involved, I mean, I think it might be a surprise to people just how involved the ambassador is in the place that someone comes for, for a state visit in dealing with the kind of minutiae, the nuts and bolts of what actually goes on in Britain.
- [39:17]
Kim Darroch
Normally, Justin, you would have months to do this planning. I mean, state visits tend to be planned or at least fixed a couple of years ahead. So this is really, really short notice. And the wheels in Whitehall and protocol department and the palace will have been worrying much faster than usual to get things sorted out. And there isn't one single prescribed way of doing it. But the usual way to plan the state visit is through the embassy in Washington and the Chief of staff, he was the person I dealt with all the time in the White House.
- [39:51]
Justin Webb
So who was it you were actually dealing with?
- [39:53]
Kim Darroch
It was Mick Mulvaney at the time who succeeded John Kelly as Chief of Staff. And you go, I go into his office with increasing frequency, but initially once a fortnight or so, and put to him London's ideas on what should happen during the state visit, other arrangements, and he would say, yes and no and yes, we'd like all that, and so on. And one of the striking features I remember at the time was they didn't want lots of visits outside the kind of square mile of Buckingham palace and Clarence house and number 10. And they weren't keen on the President being photographed against the backdrop of big, big demonstrations. So that was a visit where they basically, the whole thing was within about a square mile in central London, which was mostly cordoned off.
- [40:45]
Sarah Smith
What is it like trying to explain to him what the royal protocol is? And the fact that he, of all people, needs to show some deference to the monarch?
- [40:56]
Kim Darroch
Do you know? Although in many things it's all about him, he was really keen to get the protocol right for the first day visit, and he was mortified when there were those reports that he had walked in front of the Queen.
- [41:15]
Sarah Smith
There weren't reports, though, Doug. We all saw it.
- [41:16]
Kim Darroch
Oh, sorry.
- [41:17]
Sarah Smith
It happened.
- [41:17]
Kim Darroch
Yeah, reports, yeah, yeah. No, what I was going to say on that, Sarah, what I was going to say on that is the palace officials assured me it wasn't his fault. He absolutely wasn't to blame for that, which we dutifully passed on to the White House. But, no, he was really keen to get the protocol right. It was very surprisingly important to him because when you see him at big political summits, he can't wait to get out of the room and on the plane and out of the group photos and the rest of it. Absolutely wasn't like that on the state visit. He seemed to enjoy all of the pageantry and he was absolutely sort of fixed on getting it right.
- [41:53]
Justin Webb
So is it a secret weapon that. I mean, because we. I wonder. You know, much more about this than me, but I've always wondered whether we'd rather flatter ourselves about the special relationship and all the rest of it, generally. And also whether, whether, when it comes to the relationship between this government and Trump, whether actually behind the scenes, Trump would ditch them in a second if it suited him so to do. Or is there actually something that really does count behind the scenes, do you think?
- [42:23]
Kim Darroch
Because I do think, Justin, the special relationship is defined purely by the relationship between Number 10 and the White House. It is unquestionably unique in terms of the defense and security and intelligence link. There's a huge amount of Cultural interchange goes on. All those aspects are special about the UK US relationship. Number 10 in the White House, as you know, goes up and down. And for every Thatcher and Reagan, every Blair and Bush or Blair and Clinton, you get a Wilson and LBJ or Heath and Nixon or John Major famously fell out with Bill Clinton. So that goes up and down. But obviously it is best. The relationship is at its strongest when you have all of the defence intelligence and security cooperation, the cultural links, and it's a really good relationship between the White house and number 10. And when that happens, you really fly in terms of the question about whether this ultimate expression of soft power, the state visit, makes much difference. Well, time will tell in this case because at the moment we have one of the best trade deals around. But as you know, it's sort of unfinished. And there's always a risk out there of tariffs on pharmaceuticals coming up or on films or on something else, or him getting angry about the online safety bill and demanding we do something. There is some quite worrying stuff in the American media over the last few days about Trump saying, saying I'm not going to put any more sanctions on or tariffs on Putin's secondary tariffs unless you Europeans also put tariffs on India and China over their oil purchases from the us. So there are some very difficult issues out there and we will see over the next couple of years whether we get an easy ride on them or whether we get into some trouble. But we can easily get in trouble. Trump, as you know, can turn on a six, six months.
- [44:20]
Justin Webb
Kim, nice to talk to you, Lord Derek. Kim. Derek, thank you.
- [44:23]
Sarah Smith
Thank you very much.
- [44:27]
Mariana Mazzucato
AmericasT.
- [44:28]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
AmericasT from BBC News.
- [44:31]
Justin Webb
Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an Americaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US news, particularly in the era of Trump. You have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is ameracastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week, actually, on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you all later. Bye.
- [45:27]
Mariana Mazzucato
America is changing and so is the world.
- [45:32]
Justin Chorley
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [45:40]
Mariana Mazzucato
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [45:42]
Kim Darroch
Tristan Redman in London. And this is the Global story.
- [45:46]
Mariana Mazzucato
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [45:52]
Justin Chorley
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.