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Americast
Are the U.S and China about to end their trade war?
00:40:43
Donald Trump and Xi Jinping will meet to make deals on tariffs and TikTok.
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- [00:00]
Justin Webb
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- [00:07]
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- [01:28]
Justin Webb
Enough. Enough. Yes, that really was a military band rendition of President Trump's favorite song, ymca. It was recorded for us on location by none other than top sound recordist Anthony Zirka. Anthony, where on earth were you? What were the circumstances? It sounds fantastic.
- [01:49]
Anthony Zirka
I was at the airport in Busan, South Korea. We had just landed on Air Force One and the South Koreans had rolled out the red carpet for Donald Trump. They had that military marching ban. They had a 21 gun salute. They had all these dignitaries welcoming him when he came down the staircase. They played Hail to the Chief. The cannon shot off. And then as you heard this military band in their pomp and circumstance uniforms transitioned to the Village People playing ymca. I don't know if Donald Trump appreciated it, but it was indicative of the kind of attention to detail the South Koreans have had here in trying to curry Trump's favor.
- [02:28]
Sarah Smith
It's amazing, isn't it, the way country after country is trying to up the ante and how they flatter Donald Trump with all of this pomp and circumstance. Have you seen the gifts that the South Koreans gave him? It's remarkable. It is a copy of an ancient Korean crown, which is very, very shiny gold covered in gemstones. It's a huge, really, really tall crown that Donald Trump looked delighted to receive and could see no irony at all, I think, in the fact that just a couple of weeks ago, 7 million Americans were on the streets on those no Kings protest. Because it's bright gold. It's very, very shiny and he loves it. It was a masterstroke, I Think from the South Koreans.
- [03:07]
Justin Webb
The Trump circus goes East. Welcome to AmericasT.
- [03:12]
Sarah Smith
AmericasT.
- [03:13]
Karine Jean-Pierre
AmericasT from BBC News, when Donald Trump.
- [03:17]
Anthony Zirka
Calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world.
- [03:24]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry?
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Anthony Zirka
Of course the president supports peaceful protests.
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Karine Jean-Pierre
What a stupid question.
- [03:31]
Donald Trump
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [03:40]
Justin Webb
It's Justin at home in South London.
- [03:43]
Sarah Smith
It's Sarah here in the BBC's bureau in Washington.
- [03:46]
Anthony Zirka
And it's Anthony in the. Well, let's see. The Asia Pacific headquarters of Americas, the South Korea headquarters of Americas. I am in Gyeongjo, South Korea.
- [03:56]
Justin Webb
All right. We are an expanding enterprise. No question about that. We'll get to Anthony in a second. And that is going to mean the most part of what we talk about. I just want to say right at the beginning, I've been talking to Karine Jean Pierre, the former press secretary for Joe Biden. She's got a book out. Key figure, of course, in the Biden administration, also very close to Kamala Harris. She said some interesting things about where the Democrats should go next. So there's all sorts of stuff about her and what she thought about Biden, what she thought about Harris. And we do get to that. But I know from what you tell us, you Americasters, is that what interests you is what happens next to the Democratic Party. And she's got some quite interesting views on that. Anyway, before we get to that, Anthony, tell us about your trade.
- [04:41]
Anthony Zirka
Well, yeah, I joined up with Donald Trump in Tokyo, Japan. That was in the second leg of his trip to Asia. The first one was in Malaysia, where he presided over a normalization, a ceasefire agreement between Thailand and Cambodia. Add another peace deal to Donald Trump's growing list that he likes to tout. In Korea, he met with the new prime minister, the first woman prime minister of Japan, Sanae Takaichi, and she gave Donald Trump a golf bag and a putter that belonged to Shinzo Abe, who was the former prime minister of Japan who was assassinated, who was a close friend of Donald Trump's. Also nominated Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize, which is what people tend to do these days when they're trying to curry favor with Donald Trump. Had a big dinner. They had a rally on an aircraft carrier together. It was quite a spectacle.
- [05:36]
Sarah Smith
You're a long, long way away, Anthony, with a pretty killer time difference, I think, don't you, of about what, 12, 13 hours from where I am here? Have you seen some great stuff you've been posting some photographs that look pretty spectacular.
- [05:50]
Anthony Zirka
The flight that we had from Japan to here in South Korea was actually spectacular. The Air Force One, it looked like it took a bit of a scenic route. It actually curved by and flew right over the top of Mount Fuji. So we had an amazing view of Mount Fuji as we were coming by. And then as we got into South Korean airspace, we had about four F16, Air Force and Marine F16s accompany us right on the wing of Air Force One. This is something that started with the Saudis on Donald Trump's Mid east trip at the beginning of this year. They had some F16s and Donald Trump talked about how great it is. So now it seems like every time Trump visits a foreign country, there is a military jet escort. So I guess now the Americans are going to do it as well. But it provided some pretty remarkable views out the window as we were coming into Busan for our landing in South Korea.
- [06:46]
Justin Webb
And has Donald Trump himself come to the back of the plane at all?
- [06:49]
Anthony Zirka
He did. He actually came to the back of the plane on that trip. He spoke with those of us in the press pool for about 20 minutes. I got to ask him a variety of different questions. I asked him a little bit about Mideast peace and the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. That seems to be a bit in jeopardy. And he still expressed optimism that the ceasefire would hold and that Hamas would ultimately lay down its arms. I asked about Hurricane Melissa, which is hitting Jamaica, just hit Jamaica. And he said the United States was willing to support Jamaica, would be sending aid. And then I also asked him about the big XI Trump meeting tomorrow, our time here in South Korea. And Donald Trump expressed optimism. He said a lot of groundwork had already been laid in meetings by his Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant, and that he wasn't going to that meeting cold. He knew what was going to happen and he thought that good things were going to result.
- [07:48]
Justin Webb
Does he like you, Anthony? I just want to, because he hasn't always had a good relationship with the BBC, has he? But he must see quite a lot of you on these trips.
- [07:56]
Donald Trump
Yeah.
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Justin Webb
Do you get on with him? Is there a bit of joshing there?
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Anthony Zirka
You know, he seems pretty friendly. He always. There was one time when we were in the Middle east where he bristled a little bit at a question I asked him about Vladimir Putin and whether the Russians were taking negotiations with Ukraine seriously. And he asked me, you know, where I was from, and I said BBC. And he kind of scoffed. But, yeah, you know, I asked him about the golf club he got from Tokaichi. And he said he was really appreciative of the golf club and he enjoyed playing golf with Shinzo Abe and that it was a touching gift. He generally has been in a good mood for this entire trip, although he did have dinner earlier this evening with about seven other heads of state here for the APEC conference. And one of them was Mark Carney, the Canadian prime minister who he has feuded with recently. And he seemed to be giving a bit of a cold stare across the table at Carney. So that was the one time he expressed a little bit, maybe not quite as jovial.
- [08:57]
Sarah Smith
And he's made some controversial statements, hasn't he, Anthony, on this trip, first of all, a couple of days ago saying he did want to run again in 2028 for a third presidential term. And that set up all sorts of speculation about what he meant about how he was going to get around the constitutional bar on that. And now on the course of the same trip, he's come right out and said he cannot run again for a third term. Is that right?
- [09:20]
Anthony Zirka
Yeah, he walked that back on Air Force One today. And he had said that he thought it would be too cute to do the idea that maybe he could not run as vice president and be elevated to president. I think he understands that the obstacles to becoming president for a third term would be pretty great. It's pretty clear in the Constitution that he can't do it. But I think he does like needling, maybe trolling people on the left with it. And it also keeps him relevant. Right. If we're thinking about maybe Trump will be around for another seven years, it gives him a sort of power and influence that a second term president who, you know, is serving out the last few years of his term and everyone's trying to think who the next president will be. It helps him avoid that.
- [10:06]
Sarah Smith
Now, he's changed his tone about President Xi a bit recently, hasn't he? Because this meeting that's coming up is the big highlight really of this trip to the Far East. And a few weeks ago he was posting on Truth Social how terrible the Chinese were, how he was going to up tariffs, how appalled he was with rare Earths law that the Chinese had passed, saying that if you wanted to export anything that had even a tiny amount of rare earth minerals from China, there were going to be export controls on those. And he went from being furious about that to more recently talking about the very well respected President Xi and that kind of thing as he's softening his tone as they move towards these trade discussions. And he sounded pretty optimistic about it all. And whilst he was at an event at that Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in South Korea, he actually said that he really does think the US is going to get a good deal with China.
- [11:00]
Donald Trump
The President Xi of China is coming tomorrow here, and we're going to be, I hope, making a deal. I think we're going to have a deal. I think it'll be a good deal for. For both. And that's really a great result. You know, that's better than fighting and going through all sorts of problems and, you know, no reason for it. I think it's going to be a great deal for both. So I'll be meeting him tomorrow. A lot of people are interested. They're also interested in what we're doing, but they're interested in that. I can tell you a lot. The world is watching and I think we'll have something that's very exciting for everybody.
- [11:33]
Anthony Zirka
Donald Trump really does seem optimistic about this meeting. I think he feels like China is going to start buying soybeans again, which is something they haven't done recently, which is really hurt American farmers. It sounds like there might be a finalized deal on TikTok and handing some control over to American interests, maybe something on fentanyl. Certainly the restrictions on rare earth minerals being exported from China appears to be easing or not even implemented whatsoever. And Donald Trump, for his part, has already backed away from these 100% tariffs he was threatening of putting on China. So it is. There's a sense of optimism, not only with Donald Trump, but in the stock market, which is booming, as he likes to know, over and over again. And so it feels like tomorrow might be a breakthrough. But the Chinese and Xi, they drive a hard bargain. They are going to be coming in and they don't want to give Donald Trump an easy win. So nothing is decided until they sit in the room and reach those agreements. But it feels like the United States and China might be on a precipice of something a little more normalized.
- [12:43]
Justin Webb
But it's worth saying, isn't it, that there are plenty of people in MAGA world who are upset about that and will not react very kindly to a wider deal with China, particularly one that gives more in American advanced technology, particularly semiconductors, computer chips, that at the moment they're restricting that if they give the very best ones to China, the feeling is that China then gets a march on the rest of the world and it allows them to do all sorts of things in the Longer term, that are not in America's interest and also to an extent over Taiwan. How strong is Trump going to be about Taiwan? I mean, you do pick up, don't you, a sort of sense of unease as well about a deal that Trump might, in the enthusiasm of the moment, with YMCA ringing in his ears, just be tempted.
- [13:29]
Anthony Zirka
To me, that is a very real possibility. There are China hawks, there are people who view China as communism, maligned communist influen in the world within Donald Trump's administration. Marco Rubio, as Secretary of State, used to be a China hawk, although he tends to match whatever Donald Trump is saying at this point. And there are people within the conservative movement, I mean, I can remember going back five, six, seven years to cpac, the conservative conference, having a very decided anti China bent with concerns about Chinese ownership of American land or American businesses and the malign influence that that might have. So I think Donald Trump has to walk a fine line. But what he is sensitive to is that every time he rattles the economic sabers against China, every time it looks like things might devolve into a trade war, things might go south, the American stock market tanks, drops hundreds of points, drops, you know, percentage points within just a matter of hours. And I think he knows that if he does not try to find some way of working with China, that it could have long term disruptive effects on the American economy.
- [14:39]
Sarah Smith
And no doubt if he gets the kind of deal that they've been hinting at over the weekend. And the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessant, has been teasing us some of the deals about, like as you were saying, Anthony, for instance, the rare earth mineral restrictions being paused for at least a year and the Chinese starting to buy soybeans again. It's only going to get us back to where we were, isn't it? Before Donald Trump started this with the tariffs, you can see what he's done with other countries and in fact, compare it to what's happened with South Korea just this week as well. He signed a deal that's very, very advantageous for America with South Korea. And so that with a threat of tariffs, he has forced the South Koreans to do a bunch of things that Donald Trump wanted with the Chinese. Because every time he's upped the tariffs, they have also upped the ante by doing things like restricting exports, are also putting reciprocal tariffs on stopping buying American goods. All you're talking about is Donald Trump will ease the tariffs if they ease their countermeasures and we'll end up back on a level playing field. Won't we?
- [15:40]
Anthony Zirka
Yeah, that's exactly right. Throughout this trip, starting in Malaysia and through Japan and into South Korea, it has been the United States operating from a position of strength. All of these leaders in all of these countries have tried to find ways to appeal to Donald Trump to win him over. Whether it's playing YMCA or, or giving him a putter or letting him broker a peace deal on their soil, they're trying to stroke Donald Trump's ego. And China doesn't play that way. Just to illustrate stroking the ego, let me read to you the menu from the lunch that Donald Trump had today with President Lee of South Korea. It was billed as Korean Flavors Meet American spirit, Celebrating the enduring friendship through taste. And the first course was reminiscing the success story of New York. Korean seafood meets Thousand island dressing. A salad of shrimp, scallops and abalone tossed with autumn herbs and a classic Thousand island dressing. Then you had Korean platter of sincerity with US Beef, side dishes of kimchi and mini beef patties with ketchup. And then the final, the piece de resistance was the dessert, the peacemaker's dessert, golden citrus dessert with gold adorned brownie and seasonal fruit served with buckwheat tea. So that gives you a taste, literally of what these countries were trying to do. The Tokyo Tower in Tokyo was red, white and blue. When Donald Trump came in with a gold top on it, I mean, it was almost a little, you know, nausea inducing what some of these countries are doing. But China doesn't operate that way. And China, they're going to Xi is going to be meeting with Donald Trump at an airport. No glamour, no glitz, no cruing of favor, just two superpowers trying to figure out a way to work together.
- [17:30]
Justin Webb
Yeah. And when it comes to the hard graft of that relationship, there are obviously some difficult things. We've talked about trade. But it's not just trade, is it? It's also, well, crucially, I suppose, Taiwan and its future and the pressure, the increasing pressure that China seems to be putting on Taiwan. But also, I was fascinated by this Anthony because he was asked about Jimmy Lai, wasn't he? He was this British businessman, been in prison for several years now. Hong Kong newspaper magnet, freedom campaigner, who the Brits have been trying to get out for a long time. And he kind of, I was surprised that he sort of ran with it in a way and said, yeah, I might talk to Xi about it and we might have some sort of progress, which I just don't associate with Donald Trump. What do you think's going on there, if anything?
- [18:18]
Anthony Zirka
Yeah, I'm not sure either. That was surprising. And maybe it's Donald Trump sees this as a way of gaining some sort of advantage, some sort of leverage on China by hitting them on human rights. Funny thing was he was asked on Air Force One today what he thought about Taiwan and if he was going to talk to China about Taiwan, and Trump kind of brushed it off. He said Taiwan is Taiwan, whatever that means, but he didn't want to try to push China on that. So it's kind of a confusing game that Trump is playing on whether he wants to be confrontational with China, whether he wants to try to back off on things, and where he is drawing the lines and where he is deciding to put a spotlight versus where he doesn't really want to engage.
- [18:59]
Sarah Smith
If you look at his negotiating style, I think what he's very likely to do with this meeting is start off with a long list of complaints about the way China is operating, about where he sees the trade balance between the two countries being unfair, any of the measures that they've introduced recently. And he'll have a whole screed of things that he thinks that China are doing that are bad. And so he can add human rights abuses or things like that to that list so that he's kind of berating Xi with everything that the US doesn't like and what it wants to get from China as their initial starting point. And then he'll back down from that and they'll agree a few points, and he'll let some of it go. So it could be that he's just looking to add to that list without necessarily wanting to put Taiwan on it, because we've heard very little from Donald Trump ever really sort of supporting Taiwan and its position. So maybe he just doesn't want to go there, but he needs to find a whole whole list of stuff to try and hit g over the head with to open the meeting.
- [19:54]
Justin Webb
We will let Anthony go, won't we, Sarah? Because otherwise he'll be. He'll be completely. He'll be a basket case.
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Anthony Zirka
Too late.
- [20:02]
Sarah Smith
We can't have basket cases following the president around on Air Force One.
- [20:06]
Justin Webb
Anthony, go to bed. Or I don't know, is it morning? Is it evening?
- [20:10]
Anthony Zirka
Do you even know it's approaching midnight? I am going to bed now because it'll be an early start tomorrow and a long journey home.
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Justin Webb
Okay, talk to you soon.
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Anthony Zirka
See y' all later.
- [20:18]
Justin Webb
Right ho. Let's turn back to the future of the Democrats, which is something we talk about I think we talk about almost every podcast at the moment, but rightly so, because it is a huge subject and it's of great interest to everyone. I've been talking to Carrion Jean Pierre. Now, Carrion Jean Pierre, if you were looking at stuff during the Biden administration, would be a pretty obvious face to you. She was the face of the White House, basically. She did that job where you come into the press room every day and you face the press. So she was press secretary from 2022 to 2025. She was a senior advisor to the president as well from October 2024. So she was there. She was in the room, as it were, when decisions were being taken. And then in June of this year, she announced that she'd left the Democratic Party. She was now an independent, though, as you'll hear, she's very much still a supporter of the party, and she's an independent in the sense that she is outside it now, but still wants it effectively to win. She's written a book. It's called Independent A Look Inside A Broken White House, Outside the Party Lines. A lot of the book is about what happened with Joe Biden and what happened with Kamala Harris. But when I talked to her, I thought I'd start the other way around, as it were, with the future. What does she think of the current state of the Democratic Party? What needs to happen now?
- [21:43]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Well, what my take is is that the party is lost. I feel as if the party has lost their soul. One of the things that concerned me very early on in the Trump administration was when the administration was trying to push forward some very unqualified nominees. And you had Democrats in the Senate who basically rubber stamped Trump's nominees, which for me, sent a signal that they were giving up their power. Project 2025 was loud and clear, and the fact that they were not prepared for a Trump administration, the moment he stepped in was concerning. And now what I'm seeing even more that's more concerning is there's just continues to be no fight. And because mentioning them doesn't poll test well, they're throwing communities under the bus. And so that's concerning because we're supposed to be the Democratic Party, supposed to be a big tent party.
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Justin Webb
That's interesting. Who is being thrown under the bus, in your view?
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Karine Jean-Pierre
When you think about the LGBTQ community, when you think about migrants and immigrants, and you don't see enough fight and they're silent, you know, they're not really coming up with a strategy, and it is very much okay, that doesn't poll test, you know, well, oh, the country's afraid of migrants, so therefore, we're not going to be mentioning them or fighting for them. Oh, you know what? The LGBTQ community, we can't. We really can't support the LGBTQ community because no one wants, you know, some of the policies or some of the issues of some of the freedoms that the community should be having. And one thing to know about me, Justin, is that I'm obviously a black woman. I also am part of the queer community. I'm also an immigrant. And when you hear things like that, about communities that you participate in, that you're part in, then you feel like you're not representing and no one's fighting for you. When I came out of the administration, the Biden Harris administration, very obviously in January, very early on this year, I was hearing from people, they were saying to me, what's going on? Where is the fight? Where is the fight? Why aren't we ready? And that actually led to me trying to figure out my voice in this moment in the book.
- [23:56]
Justin Webb
I mean, just to take one issue then, which is biological males playing in women's sports. So that's an issue that really harmed the Democrats, didn't it, during the election. Are you suggesting that on that issue, the Democrats just say, look, we think it's a moral issue. We think people who are trans should be able to choose where they play their sports. We're going to stick to it, and if you don't like that, then don't vote for us. I mean, isn't that a kind of. Isn't that a way of just committing electoral suicide?
- [24:30]
Karine Jean-Pierre
I actually disagree because we should not go down a rabbit hole because Republicans are telling us, don't say woke or this issue or that issue. We should stand on moral ground and really, really, really try to do our best to protect people who feel vulnerable.
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Justin Webb
But what if that doesn't work politically, though? Carrying. That's the problem for you, isn't it?
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Karine Jean-Pierre
It's not about having a debate. Don't have the debate. Just say where you stand and move forward and focus on things that will move the country forward. Focus on the economy that matter. Focus on democracy.
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Justin Webb
Yeah, but you'll be asked about those things, won't you?
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Karine Jean-Pierre
Yeah, but here's the thing. I mean, I wasn't part of the campaign, so I wasn't. I can't speak to their strategy, obviously. I was part of the. As White House press secretary, I was speaking for the president, and I was part of the government and the White House. And I think what I am trying to say is that there are issues, there have been issues in the past, again, civil rights issues, human rights issues that were not popular where the country wasn't there, but it is. It cannot. There has to be a time where it's not about politics, where it has to be about your moral compass to doing the right thing and standing up for people who are afraid and not going into the gutter or going down a rabbit hole about what the other side wants us to talk about.
- [25:55]
Justin Webb
Let me ask you then, is there anyone in the party at the moment who you think is doing that? So we on the podcast, quite recently, we focused on the campaigns in Virginia and in New Jersey, these very important gubernatorial campaigns. And you've got two, I mean, I suppose you could describe them in shorthand as moderate Democrats in Spamberger and Mikey Sherrill, who are. Who are going for those and likely to win. And of course, also. And we've done an entire episode on Zoran Mandani and this incredible campaign.
- [26:28]
Sarah Smith
Yeah.
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Karine Jean-Pierre
Very different story.
- [26:29]
Sarah Smith
Yeah.
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Justin Webb
Well, do any. Who excites you from there or do any of them.
- [26:33]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Look, Mamdani obviously is an incredible, incredibly impressive candidate. He has managed to get young people excited, and he has. He has done something that you don't see politicians, certainly Democrats doing, which is going directly to the American people. When he was riding the train and having conversations with people, they felt heard, they felt listened to, they felt seen. And so those are the things that are. That are missing. And I think there are things that he's doing that certainly on the national level, Democratic leadership could listen to that and take some direction on how to communicate with people. I believe Democrats should go into Republican district and talk to Republican voters about the economy. I believe they should also be standing in front of a hospital that's about to shut down because of GOP hikes and have a press conference and say, hey, this is what's going on. There's so many things that they can do so that voters see them and see them fighting for them. And I think that is one of the things from. That has been quite impressive and something for them to learn from.
- [27:41]
Justin Webb
And are you happy to see the Mamdani kind of candidate in a place like New York where it looks as if he can win and win big, but also completely different sort of candidate. So one of the things we've been discussing on the podcast is this business of whether you should run, for instance, people who are not keen on abortion in some states where there are More conservative voters, including voters who used to vote Democrat but don't anymore. I mean, it gets. West Virginia is an obvious example. Or should you have a kind of litmus test of what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable? Where do you stand on that?
- [28:19]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Look, I believe that right now, if you are a part of a community or if you identify in whatever way, just know that if when they come for one, they come for all of us, which means we have to stand together. We have to stand together. There's a large fight ahead of us. And if we don't do that, then we're going to be in a world of hurt as a country, as a people. And so what I want to see, I think what's important is that you have candidates that listen, acknowledge, and speak to what people really care about. Look, one of the best examples that I can give you, and it's not even coming from elected officials, coming from the people, the people of this country. When 7 million people came out for the no Kings rally not too long ago, and it was the third one, which meant that it grew by millions, that is telling you, like elected officials, these leadership should see, okay, this is where 7 million people came out. This is where many, many voices are. They're afraid about what's going on in our democracy. And that is something to tap into. I actually believe we need a functioning two party system in order to have a democracy. You learn that in poli sci. And what's happening now, system is broken and we have too much of politics in it, and we need to bring people power in it. And so that is what matters to me. How do we get people more engaged, more involved, especially young people, who, by the way, young people are becoming more independent by the day.
- [29:53]
Justin Webb
Talking of saving democracy, I mean, one of the things you write in the book that I think will amaze people in particular is that you, you didn't think that Kamala Harris, after she took over from Joe Biden, you didn't think she was gonna win. And I think a lot of people will say, what if you didn't think she was gonna win? And if other people didn't think she was gonna, why on earth did you run her?
- [30:16]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Wait, first of all, I didn't run anybody. I don't have that power. So thanks.
- [30:21]
Justin Webb
But you were there so much. But you were there. You were closer than the rest of us. You were in the White House.
- [30:24]
Karine Jean-Pierre
But Justin. But Justin, let me, let me. I'm gonna lay this out for you.
- [30:27]
Propane Advertiser
Sure.
- [30:28]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Two things could be true. And the Two things are, I was proud that she was running. I was. I think she's more than qualified to be President of the United States. And I think she did a phenomenal job in those 107 days. And as a black woman who lives in this country and walks through this world, I could also have doubts because of my personal experiences in walking in this body and looking like the way that I do. You know, only people who've been othered or live in, you know, live in spaces where they don't see themselves can understand that. It is. It is very. It is a feeling that is sad, but very real. Very, very real. And she actually touches on that a little bit too, as well in her book, from what I understand, and I've heard her speak to it as well. But that is just the reality. Those two things could be true. You could think someone is more than qualified and able to do the job. But also you're like, oh, my gosh, is the country ready for this now? Don't forget, as you know, in 2016, we had Hillary Clinton. So it's not out of the norm for me to have thought that.
- [31:39]
Justin Webb
I mean, I suppose that's the point, isn't it, that so many people around the world who are so distressed about Donald Trump coming to power again and all that, you, you writ large, you as Democrats, which you were, of course, at the time, and a very prominent one, all that you were warning the world about Donald Trump, they would say, just run anyone. The actual identity stuff, if you think it's holding your back, you back. The thing to do was to have the open contest, was to persuade Joe Biden to drop out earlier, was to do something. Do something. And you never did anything.
- [32:13]
Karine Jean-Pierre
I just. Well, first of all, you know, I was not on the campaign. I was the spokesperson for the President of the United States, so. But I will say this. In the loss of 2024, I agree with you. We all should take accountability. Not, you know, not just the Democratic leadership. All of us should take some accountability. And I do as well, in what happened. I believe in the time, the summer of 2024, the way Democrats behaved actually hurt us. And remember, we had a primary. 14 million people came out. They voted for Biden and Harris. 14 million people. That's not nothing. There was a process that went through and a decision. I think that the decision by the Democratic Party was made, and I think that did hurt us. And you have to be hopeful in the moment that we're in. And she ran a fantastic campaign. She just did. At the end of the day. And there were many, but there are many reasons why it didn't work out.
- [33:15]
Justin Webb
In a sense, isn't it obvious why? You had a presidential candidate who all the polls said was going to lose and he didn't get out at the right time, and then when he did get out to be kind to her, it didn't leave her enough time to run a really good campaign. But the party could have intervened earlier, couldn't it? Or could it not? Was it just impossible? You were there on the inside.
- [33:39]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, just a couple things. There was an incumbency issue. I mean, you saw that with other G7, G10 countries. Covid the economy. Right. So there was. There was an incumbency issue. And we saw that across the world. And the. The economy, even though it was improving, people weren't feeling it. And so it's not just the person, it's the party. It's the party that has the power. So there was that. That existed in 2023. And I always like to take people back to 2023. When President Joe Biden made the decision, it was a different time. Party leadership was encouraging to him to run because of the midterms and how the midterms turned out. It wasn't a red wave. It wasn't as bad as we thought. It was a historic midterm for an incumbent, first midter for a president. And so that was part of it. He was the only person to have beaten Donald Trump. He objectively had a good couple of years of his presidency. And so those were the decisions that went in. Again, party leadership were encouraging him to run, and so that's why that decision was made. Joe Biden is going to write his book. He will tell his story. I can't wait to read it. And he will lay out what his thought process is. But we can't forget the facts that existed during that time in making that decision.
- [34:58]
Justin Webb
Final thought from you.
- [35:00]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Yes. And thank you for saying my name. Prep like so. Well, thank you so much. Not many people do that, so I appreciate it.
- [35:07]
Justin Webb
We do our best. We don't always get it right. I have to be. So I have to say we're equally capable of getting it very wrong.
- [35:13]
Karine Jean-Pierre
That's the French way.
- [35:16]
Justin Webb
Just a final thought. People keep asking us, who's going to run, who should win, who's going to run? What's your thought about name names go on for 28.
- [35:26]
Karine Jean-Pierre
So here's the thing, Justin. I don't want to talk about 2028. Not with you. Just in general, because we got to get out of 2025. We got to get out of 2026. We have a president who is already right now in 2025 is saying that he wants his Justice Department to monitor elections that are happening just this year. We have a president who is essentially saying he's going to cheat in 2026.
- [35:52]
Justin Webb
Carrie and Jean Pierre, been a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much for sparing us the time.
- [35:56]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Thanks, Justin. Appreciate it. Anytime.
- [35:59]
Justin Webb
Bye.
- [36:00]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Bye.
- [36:00]
Sarah Smith
Bye. Well, Justin, that was really, really interesting. If I had any position at all in the Democratic Party, I think I would have my head and my hands listening to it. It, though, because it did not sound like somebody who was masterminding a comeback, does it? I think we should point out to any Amerikasters who don't know this already that one of the things Karine says in the book is the reason she left the Democratic Party is she was so disappointed with the way they treated Joe Biden and basically chased him off the presidential ticket. Now there are not very many people left in the party who think that he should have carried on with that candidacy and that if he had, he would have have beaten Donald Trump in the election last year. So that's a fairly remarkable place to begin for her, and she have to say, been widely panned for that here. This book has not been very well reviewed in the United States, but the lack of insight into how badly everything went wrong was what really took me aback.
- [37:05]
Justin Webb
Yeah, I mean, exactly that. And you're right, it has been widely lampooned, hasn't it? The book itself, and actually also, frankly, some of her performances afterwards. And I thought, you know, you can make what you like of that conversation. I wanted it to be a positive one and one that was interesting to people rather than sort of combative. But she's had some pretty combative ones where what she has seemed to be saying, exactly as you suggest, Sarah has been sort of fundamentally, number one, in complete denial of what everyone thinks they knew was going on towards the end of the Biden administration. But number two, also just inconsistent, actually, because as I said to her at one stage in the book, she says she didn't think Kamala Harris was capable of winning. She thought she wasn't gonna. I mean, in those circumstances, what is she saying? They shouldn't or they should have picked her. And it's still not entirely clear to me, actually, what she makes of that whole business. You remember, there was a chance, albeit a small one, but some sort of a chance, particularly if Biden had dropped out earlier, that they'd have some kind of of contested primary or at least a competition between a few of them to work out who the best one might be. She doesn't seem to be in favor of that. But she also doesn't seem to think that her candidate had a hope of winning, which is just when you think of all the stakes involved, just bizarre to me.
- [38:25]
Sarah Smith
And when you were talking to her about LGBT issues, I think you were trying to hint at, were you not, that there can be a sort of purity test performed on Democrats standing for election whereby if you don't agree with certain positions on things like trans rights, abortion, same sex marriage, whatever, then, then you're not good enough to run as a Democrat. And whether or not they have to ease back on that. And there are many, many conversations happening now about the ways in which candidates in more rural places, for instance, shouldn't have to say the same kind of things as people in metropolitan New York. But no, that wasn't something that she was prepared to talk about either. It was almost, if you're, if you can stand on moral ground, that's high enough, somehow your righteousness will win out. Which I think is exactly where they went wrong.
- [39:17]
Justin Webb
Well, I mean, they've tried that, haven't they? That's the thing. It's not us saying they've gone wrong because we disagree with it or agree with it. It's not, it's not. Neither you nor I have a dog in the fight or an interest in telling people what we think. It's empirically the case, isn't it? They tried these purity tests and they tried the, the identity politics stuff, or at least they got trapped into it and they couldn't get out of it. It's probably a better way of putting it, isn't it, Sarah? But they went down this line and it didn't work out terribly well. And I suppose the interesting thing is whether you do double down on it, which she seemed to be suggesting, I think from her personal standpoint, is what she wants them to do, because eventually you'll win out or whether you, you change course. And I don't know, I just think the party has to address this and address it openly if they're going to get anywhere at all.
- [40:10]
Sarah Smith
Plenty to keep us going, though, which is the good news if we leave it there for today. But whilst Donald Trump is over there in South Korea, we should play just one more time, shouldn't we? That military band and their rendition of his theme song, it's too good to be true.
- [40:27]
Justin Webb
Yes.
- [40:27]
Sarah Smith
See y' all later.
- [40:28]
Donald Trump
Bye bye.
- [40:51]
Karine Jean-Pierre
Ameracast Ameracast from BBC News.
- [40:55]
Justin Webb
Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an AmericasT. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. You have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-1239480. We answer your questions every single week, actually on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you all later. Bye.
- [41:51]
Karine Jean-Pierre
America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just.
- [41:58]
Justin Webb
The cause of global upheaval.
- [42:00]
Karine Jean-Pierre
It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.
- [42:10]
Caulipower Advertiser
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story.
- [42:12]
Karine Jean-Pierre
From this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.