Can Denmark convince Trump not to “conquer” Greenland?

Summary

Americast (BBC News)

Episode Title: Can Denmark convince Trump not to “conquer” Greenland?
Date: January 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Americast team dissects two highly charged transatlantic stories:

1. The mounting confrontation between President Donald Trump and Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell over interest rates and independence of the central bank;
2. Intensifying US pressure to “take control” of Greenland, leading to tense talks in Washington with Denmark and Greenland’s foreign ministers.

Hosted by Sarah Smith (BBC North America Editor), Anthony Zurcher (BBC North America Correspondent), and Justin Webb (BBC Radio 4), the episode provides in-depth analysis, on-the-ground updates, and critical context, capturing the rapidly evolving standoffs at the heart of US politics and global relations.

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1. Trump vs. Jerome Powell: Independence of the US Federal Reserve

Key Issues and Insights

• Jerome Powell Under Criminal Investigation ([03:51] onwards)

  • Powell, traditionally reserved, took the unusual step of addressing the nation by video, revealing that the Trump administration’s Department of Justice had launched a criminal probe into his conduct.
  • The official rationale centers on alleged mismanagement and testimony regarding a multi-billion-dollar Federal Reserve building renovation. Powell asserts the real motivation is political retaliation for not lowering interest rates as Trump desires.

• Powell’s Public Response

  • Powell directly accused the White House of politicizing the Fed, warning of unprecedented and dangerous interference with US monetary policy:
    • Quote (Jerome Powell, [05:03]):
      “This new threat is not about my testimony … The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public … This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation.”

• Roundtable Analysis

  • Anthony ([04:37], [07:18]): Emphasizes Powell’s “line in the sand”—interprets this as a remarkable escalation with global stakes.
    • “Here he was with a conscious decision to go straight at Donald Trump, really, the first time he's ever done that publicly and knowing what that would amount to, a declaration of war or a line in the sand, that this has to stop.”
  • Sarah ([07:52]): Notes bipartisan applause for Powell’s stand, reflecting growing alarm about Trump’s tactics.
    • “A lot of respect going towards Jerome Powell … If only everybody had the courage to call Donald Trump out when he's using the justice system in this way ...”

• Details of the Dispute ([08:19] onwards)

  • Trump has long criticized Powell’s pace on interest rate cuts (“Jerome Too Late Powell”) and fixated on the $2.5–3.1 billion renovation costs for the Fed’s headquarters, accusing Powell of mismanagement.

  • The dispute spilled into public view, with Trump even touring the renovation site and bickering with Fed officials on TV ([09:38] onwards).

    • Memorable Exchange ([09:56] onwards):
      • Anthony: “The original estimates for the renovation were $2.5 billion. Trump says now it's going to cost maybe upwards of $3.1 billion to finish the project ... Powell has denied that.”
      • Justin: Ironic back-and-forth about who is responsible for cost overruns, highlighting the public nature of the spat.

• Presidential Power Over the Fed ([13:19], [15:29])

  • The Fed was designed to be insulated from short-term political influence, explaining the significance of Trump’s attempt to remove or coerce Powell:
    • Host in London ([15:29]):
      “There is an argument about whether or not you are giving away too much democratic power when you allow central bankers to set interest rates ... But the counter argument is ... an economy that is well run and stable ... is an economy where there is a separation between the political and the technical ... Trump is moving in the direction of directly challenging that and saying, no, it should be me, because I am elected by the people ...”

• National and Global Impact ([16:53], [17:46])

  • Economists and global finance leaders voiced alarm, likening Trump’s approach to “developing country tinpot, dictatorship type of behavior.”

    • Anthony ([16:53]):
      “If the United States does this, then is it going to be in a position to tell all of these other countries that, no, what you're doing is a bad economic idea? ... We're leading by example one way or the other.”

  • Stock markets wobbled but quickly recovered, showing the US economy’s resilience and possibly underestimating the long-term risks.

• Trump’s Own Words ([19:00]):

  • Trump, speaking to the Detroit Economic Club, signaled his wish for direct Fed support for market gains and within earshot said of Powell, “That jerk will be gone soon.”
    • Quote ([19:00], Trump):
      “Today, if you announce great numbers, they raise interest rates to try and kill it… We have a real stiff in the Fed. But that's for another day. If I had the help of the Fed, it would be easier. But that jerk will be gone soon.”

• What’s Next for Powell? ([23:23], [24:53])

  • Powell’s term as chair ends in May, but he could technically remain as a governor. Congressional Republicans are pushing back, threatening to block Trump’s replacement pick unless the attack on Powell ceases (notably Thom Tillis). This may paradoxically keep Powell involved for years.
    • Sarah ([14:23]):
      “If anything is going to make him determined to stay on, it's going to be this row that he's having with Donald Trump.”

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2. The Greenland Gambit: Can Denmark Hold Its Ground?

Key Issues and Insights

• High-Stakes White House Meeting ([24:53] onwards)

  • Foreign ministers from Denmark and Greenland meet with US Vice President JD Vance, Marco Rubio, and other top officials to discuss escalating US demands to “take control” of Greenland—whether by annexation or purchase.

• Trump’s Determination

  • Trump continues to champion outright American ownership of Greenland, citing US security and the “golden dome”—a major missile defense system he wants stationed there.

    • Quote ([25:53], Sarah paraphrasing Trump):
      “You don’t defend something if you just have a lease on it the same way you do if you own it.”

    • Trump on Social Media:
      “The United States needs Greenland for the purpose of national security. It’s vital for the golden dome that we’re building. NATO should be leading the way for us to get it. If we don’t, Russia or China will, and that’s not going to happen.”

• Denmark’s Response: Frank but Firm

  • Lars Løkke Rasmussen, Danish Foreign Minister ([26:55]):
    “The President has made his view clear and we have a different position … for US ideas that would not respect territorial integrity of the Kingdom of Denmark and the right of self determination of the Greenlandic people are of course totally unacceptable. And we therefore still have a fundamental disagreement, but we also agree to disagree.”
  • The BBC hosts identify this as diplomatic code for stalemate; the fundamental disagreement persists.

• Military and Economic Underpinnings

  • Despite existing agreements giving the US wide military latitude in Greenland, Trump insists only outright sovereignty is acceptable. Allies are increasing their own military presence as both a deterrent and a gesture of seriousness—troops from Germany, Denmark, possibly the UK.

    • Sarah ([30:59]):
      “Not to defend against an American incursion, but rather in order to show to Donald Trump that they and NATO are taking the security of Greenland very, very seriously.”

  • Trump dismisses these gestures, saying Denmark’s efforts amount to “one more dog sled.” Danish FM responds:

    • Lars Løkke Rasmussen ([31:36]):
      “The Kingdom of Denmark has already stepped up our own contribution by committing additional fund for military capabilities. Not dock sleds, but ships, drones, fighter jets, etc. And we are definitely ready to do more.”

• Underlying Drivers

  • Beyond defense, there is US interest in Greenland’s critical mineral resources, as melting ice reveals untapped economic potential.
    • Anthony ([30:00]):
      “They said they're open to American investment and mineral development. But I think you get at the real point here and that is changing the color of Greenland on a map.”

• Risks of Escalation

  • Speculation about military conflict remains remote, but the build-up of NATO troops functions as a “tripwire” in case of further provocation.
    • Anthony ([30:33]):
      “That's almost like a tripwire, right? … You can't just land troops on the frozen tundra of Greenland and begin to occupy it. There would be a conflict.”

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3. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Jerome Powell on Public Service ([05:03]):
  “Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people.”

• Host in London on the Gravity of the Conflict ([06:48]):
  “My reaction to that, Sarah, is, wow, because you don't often hear in those terms with that degree of bluntness, Jerome Powell say anything about anything that isn't specifically monetary policy. The fact that he is taking the President on and doing so so nakedly, so openly now, this is a new world.”

• Anthony on External Alarm ([16:53]):
  “This is kind of developing country tinpot, dictatorship type of behavior…”

• Trump on Powell ([19:00]):
  “If I had the help of the Fed, it would be easier. But that jerk will be gone soon.”

• Lars Løkke Rasmussen on Denmark's Stance ([26:55]):
  “[US] ideas that would not respect territorial integrity of the Kingdom of Denmark and the right of self determination of the Greenlandic people are of course totally unacceptable. And we therefore still have a fundamental disagreement, but we also agree to disagree.”

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4. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:07] – Sarah opens with Greenland and the Denmark/Greenland–White House meeting
• [03:51] – Sarah details the criminal investigation into Jerome Powell
• [05:03] – Jerome Powell’s statement in full
• [07:52] – Analysis: bipartisan support for Powell and political risks
• [09:38] – On-site recounting of Trump and Powell’s building cost argument
• [13:19] – Federal Reserve structure and independence explained
• [16:53] – Global reaction and worries about precedent
• [19:00] – Trump’s remarks at the Detroit Economic Club
• [24:53] – Shift to the Greenland issue and context for new White House meeting
• [26:55] – Danish Foreign Minister’s official statement
• [31:36] – Denmark’s response to Trump’s “dog sled” jibe

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5. Tone and Takeaways

Faithful to the BBC’s signature style—measured, occasionally wry, and precise—the Americast hosts break down the nuances, stakes, and ironies of these headline-dominating clashes. The episode’s tone is urgent yet skeptical, balancing gravity with dry humor.

Final Reflections:

• The challenges to US institutions—both monetary and diplomatic—are acute, with even allies responding nervously to Washington’s new direction.
• The episode leaves open whether the Trump administration will succeed in either ousting Powell or “conquering” Greenland, but signals that resistance, both domestic and international, is formidable and growing.

Transcript

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[Sarah]

Hello, we've got two very big stories playing out today. First off, important talks about the future of Greenland. The foreign ministers of Denmark and Greenland have come here to Washington D.C. for some talks at the White House. How did they go?

[Lars Løkke Rasmussen]

We therefore still have a fundamental disagreement, but we also agree to disagree.

[Sarah]

There was another extraordinary moment this week, another disagreement, when the world's top central banker, the chairman of the U.S. federal Reserve, made a video statement basically calling out Donald Trump.

[Jerome Powell]

Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people.

[Sarah]

That was Jerome Powell there breaking the news that a criminal investigation has been launched into him by the Trump administration. And, and basically saying he thinks that this is entirely politically motivated because he hasn't done what President Trump wants him to and lower interest rates. Therefore, Trump is using the Justice Department against him. Now, that is a very big deal and we will explain exactly why. Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.

[Poland Ministry of Foreign Affairs Advertiser]

AmericasT from BBC News, when Donald Trump.

[Anthony]

Calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir.

[Sarah]

We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear.

[Anthony]

Are you worried that billionaire are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests.

[Poland Ministry of Foreign Affairs Advertiser]

What a stupid question.

[Justin]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

[Sarah]

Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's bureau in Washington.

[Anthony]

And it's Anthony right next to Sarah here in Washington, D.C. and it's Justin.

[Host in London]

In the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England. And we should say before we start, it's late. At least it's late for me. It's after half a six in the evening, which, you know, I mean, it's fine for you guys because it's still the middle of the day, but for me it's not. But there is a reason why we're doing it slightly late because there is an awful lot to get to and some of it has yet to happen or is happening as we're on. So we're doing the right thing. Before we get into Jerome Powell and Donald Trump, we should say that one of the other things we need to keep an eye on is this meeting between JD Vance, Marco Rubio and the foreign ministers from Denmark and Greenland at the White House. And we know what that's all about. Very interesting to see what, what comes out of it and what the tone was like. So hopefully we can get to that or at least you two can. Sarah and Anthony, later on, though, I may have to go to bed because I tend to do that quite early for other reasons that we won't go into now. But. Okay, Sarah, take us away. When it comes to Jerome Powell, what has actually happened to him this week?

[Sarah]

Well, this was a fairly astonishing intervention from the chairman of the Federal Reserve, who's normally a rather reserve kind of chap. I mean, that's the sort of person in that role who is very buttoned up and serious and doesn't tend to make splashy news. But on Sunday night, he recorded a video in which he revealed that he was under investigation by the Department of Justice and that he thought that this was an entirely political move based on the fact that he has clashed with Donald Trump, who wants him to lower interest rates faster than he has been doing. They've had some very public arguments about that. And he set all of this out absolutely foursquare, accusing the president of political interference in this investigation. And I mean, I was pretty surprised by seeing him do that. Anthony, were you?

[Anthony]

Yeah. I mean, he is, as you mentioned, normally restrained kind of guy, doesn't get involved in politics. And here he was putting politics directly on the table. All of this, the investigation is over renovations that have been happening to the Federal Reserve building and testimony that Jerome Powell gave before Congress about those renovations. But let's listen to Jerome Powell in that statement he had released on Sunday night in full.

[Jerome Powell]

On Friday, the Department of justice served the Federal Reserve with grand jury subpoenas, threatening a criminal Indictment related to my testimony before the Senate Banking Committee last June. That testimony concerned, in part, a multi year project to renovate historic Federal Reserve office buildings. I have deep respect for the rule of law and for accountability in our democracy. No one, certainly not the chair of the Federal Reserve, is above the law. But this unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress's oversight role. The Fed, through testimony and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project. Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. This is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. I have served at the Federal Reserve under four administrations, Republicans and Democrats alike. In every case, I have carried out my duties without political fear or favor, focused solely on our mandate of price stability and maximum employment. Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people. Thank you.

[Host in London]

My reaction to that, Sarah, is, wow, because you don't often hear in those terms with that degree of bluntness, Jerome Powell say anything about anything that isn't specifically monetary policy. The fact that he is taking the President on and doing so so nakedly, so openly now, this is a new world.

[Sarah]

Yeah, yeah, but he said, didn't he, public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. And that's obviously what he has decided to do in this particular case. And to call it out publicly.

[Anthony]

You don't get to be the chair of the Federal Reserve without understanding that every single word, every single pause, every single comma you say matters. You get to the point where you get very good at choosing your sentences carefully because it can move markets, it can shift tectonic plates in the global economy. So here he was with a conscious decision to go straight at Donald Trump, really, the first time he's ever done that publicly and knowing what that would amount to, a declaration of war or a line in the sand, that this has to stop.

[Sarah]

And actually, he has been getting a lot of applause from the left and the right for being somebody who is prepared to stand up to Donald Trump, even in the face of a potential criminal investigation. And there's been a lot of commentary, I've seen, you probably have as well, Anthony, of people saying if only everybody had the courage to call Donald Trump out when he's using the justice system in this way or when he's trying to bully people into doing something. So, yeah, a lot of respect going towards Jerome Powell for that at the very least.

[Anthony]

Right. You gotta remember what these threats are. Donald Trump has said Jerome Powell has been too late to reduce interest rates. He called him Jerome Too late Powell. He says he's incompetent. But the latest attacks that Donald Trump has been launching are on that building on Constitution Avenue, the headquarters of the Federal Reserve. You can see it, it's not too far from the White House. It's been surrounded by cranes for the past few years. And he says that the cost overruns have been essentially corruption and mismanagement on the part of Powell. The building was built in the 1930s. It hasn't been renovated significantly since then. So it needed a lot of work. The original estimates for the renovation were $2.5 billion. Trump says now it's going to cost maybe upwards of $3.1 billion to finish the project. There have been accusations that it's full of luxury items. Powell has denied that. He says these cost overruns are because of increased costs of these renovations. Just inflation and building costs, but also things like remediating asbestos and other cleanup that has been necessary because it is a 90 year old building. That is the focus of this latest investigation. But clearly from Powell, the way he's characterizing it, that is not what this is about.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And Donald Trump has been trying to get at him over these building costs for quite a while. I remember a few months ago, President Trump went all the way down to the Fed building to do a tour of the renovations, which is not a normal thing for a president to do, to leave the White House to do something like that. And they ended up bickering about the costs actually in front of the TV cameras.

[Justin]

So we're taking a look and it looks like it's about 3.1 billion. One up a little bit or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1.

[Anthony]

I'm not aware of that.

[Justin]

Yeah, it just came out.

[Anthony]

Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed.

[Justin]

Yeah, it just came back.

[Anthony]

Arnold said it about 3.1 as well.

[Sarah]

So you're.

[Anthony]

Well, at 1.3.2. This came from us.

[Justin]

Yes. I don't know who does. Name.

[Anthony]

Are You. Including the Martin renovation.

[Jerome Powell]

You just said third Tire Capital. Yeah, you just said. You just added in a third building.

[Anthony]

Is what that is.

[Jerome Powell]

That's a third building.

[Justin]

It's a building that's being built.

[Anthony]

No, it's been.

[Jerome Powell]

It was built five years ago.

[Anthony]

We finished Martin five years.

[Justin]

Part of the overall work.

[Lars Løkke Rasmussen]

So.

[Justin]

So we're going to take a look. We're gonna see what's happening.

[Host in London]

Gloriously uncomfortable. And you hear people feeding Donald Trump the information in the background there. Look, the big picture here is that when Donald Trump discovers who nominated Powell for this role, he's gonna be very angry, isn't he? Cause it was one Donald Trump.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Exact. Some retribution, I would assume.

[Host in London]

Exact same retribution exactly. So back in 2017, he gets nominated by Donald Trump. Trump. But the relationship, to put it mildly, has soured. How normal is this? Well, the first bit and the second bit, very normal, actually. So presidents do nominate the chair of the Federal Reserve. The second bit is that they fall out. They always fall out or often fall out. George W. Bush certainly fell out with whoever was in charge of the Fed when. When I was in D.C. doing your job, Sarah. And it was something that people talked about and I think Bush actually wrote about later on. But crucially, crucially, crucially, because of the centralness of this relationship and the importance for the American economy and potentially for the global economy, which is something we'll get to in a bit, they don't fall out publicly, and what they certainly don't do is enter into these threats of criminal proceedings, et cetera, et cetera. But the bottom line is Donald Trump has decided, as presidents sometimes do, I want to run the economy hot. So he's got his fiscal policy, his taxing and spending. He's got tax cuts happening and not enough spending cuts to match them. So heat there. But also he wants similar heat with monetary policy. He wants the Fed to lower interest rates, even though the Fed thinks that it would be unwise to lower them too much at the moment.

[Sarah]

When.

[Anthony]

Why?

[Host in London]

Because it creates inflation. It creates, crucially, inflation further down the road. But this is the point, isn't it, guys? In the immediate short term, that is the months going up to November. Oh, I wonder what's happening in November. People will feel good.

[Sarah]

Yeah. You reduce interest rates, people feel like they have more money in their pocket. And that would suit Donald Trump very well at the moment because he is looking at voters complaining about prices and about the affordability issue that there is here. He is, continues to say that affordability is a word that was made up by Democrats. But that doesn't stop the problem that voters are concerned about prices and dropping interest rates would make them feel a little bit better.

[Anthony]

Yeah, that's the way the system was set up. It was set up to be insulated from these short term political motivations. And people who are governors on the Federal Reserve are supposed to be thinking in the long term. They're supposed to be cooling some of the political impulses of presidents and members of Congress. They serve longer terms, terms that overlap different administrations. And they're not supposed to be able to be fired by a president without cause. We've seen Donald Trump already try to fire Lisa Cook, who is one of the members of the Federal Reserve, a governor alleging that she engaged in some sort of a mortgage fraud, although that hasn't been proven yet. In that case, actually, ironically enough, is going to be argued before the Supreme Court just next week about how much influence a president has on the makeup of the Federal Reserve, which is supposed to be independent. So all of this is kind of coming together all at once and the stakes are high because it is the health of the US Economy and the economic system that the Americans have right now that is at stake.

[Sarah]

There's a delicious irony to this, Justin. Jerome Powell's term actually runs out in May. Donald Trump will be shot of him really quite soon, except he can stay on as one of the governors. So not the chairman anymore, but one of the governors, therefore, with an important decision making rule for another couple of years after that. A lot of people thought he wasn't going to bother. People around the Fed say he's looking burnt out and tired and he'll probably just retire from the whole thing. But if anything is going to make him determined to stay on, it's going to be this row that he's having with Donald Trump. Plus, not only are Democrats angry about this, you've got some Republicans in Congress deeply, deeply concerned about this, including one Thom Tillers, who actually chairs the committee that will approve the new Fed chairman whom Donald Trump will get to nominate. He says they're not going to approve that unless this threat against Jerome Powell is taken away. So Donald Trump might end up with Powell on the board for another couple of years and possibly not even being able to replace him as the chairman precisely because he's gone after him quite so hard.

[Host in London]

It's really interesting. It goes to the heart of what populism is in a way, doesn't it? And the way that Trump wants to govern, because there is a sort of dimly remember this from undergraduate economics. There is an argument about whether or not you are giving away too much democratic power when you allow central bankers to set interest rates, given how important monetary policy is to everything we do. But the counter argument is exactly the one you've just been talking about, both of you, that an economy that is well run and stable and provides long term goods for everyone is an economy where there is a separation between the political and the technical when it comes to monetary policy. And it's interesting that Donald Trump is moving in the direction of directly challenging that and saying, no, it should be me, because I am elected by the people and the people ought to have a say in all of this. And you do wonder the extent to which there are other people around the world, other strong men or potential strong men, perhaps some strong women as well, who are thinking, who are looking at the Fed and what happens with Jerome Powell and whether Trump is successful and indeed whether he's successful with his successor in persuading him to put or her to put interest rates down further than they should be, whether that actually does have a kind of domino effect across the world.

[Anthony]

Yeah, you know, it was interesting after Powell made the statement on Sunday night, a bunch of former Federal Reserve governors came out with a statement and one of the things they said was this is kind of developing country tinpot, dictatorship type of behavior that one of the things that global economists try to prevent is having leaders of countries take over the monetary policy of their nations to try to goose the economy. And what they end up doing is having this incredibly high inflation, whether it's in South America or African nations or elsewhere. This is a pattern that is not one that the United States should follow, not a path that it should go down. But if the United States does this, then is it going to be in a position to tell all of these other countries that, no, what you're doing is a bad economic idea? I mean, we're leading by example one way or the other.

[Sarah]

Yeah, in this sense, shockwaves around the world. You had central bankers from across Europe all the way to Korea saying, this is a terrible thing. You had former chairs of the Fed, all sorts of economists and Wall street people coming out and saying they were deeply, deeply worried about this. Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan Chase, actually went on the record saying he was concerned about this and he's normally pretty careful about what he says in the political arena. So, I mean, it's had repercussions already, though it was really interesting what happened to the stock market because of Course, that's the one thing that might affect Donald Trump's thinking. It fell quite precipitously on Monday morning and the dollar weakened and all sorts of things like that. By the end of the. Things are running so hot in the economy here, it was actually up at an all time high. The S and P. Yeah.

[Host in London]

And that's. Isn't that Trump's point? Actually that. And he made this point, in fact, we should listen to it. He made exactly this point to business people quite recently. He was talking directly about Jerome Powell and he was talking to the Detroit Economic Club. So he's on his visit to Michigan and he makes that point about the impact that low interest rates could have on the economy and on actual businesses and actual people.

[Justin]

Today, if you announce great numbers, they raise interest rates to try and kill it. So you can never really have the kind of rally you should have. What happens and what we want, we're going to have a lot of great months, a lot of great quarters. I want the market to go up. You announce unbelievable numbers and the market goes down because they know they're going to. You're going to do everything possible in the Fed. We have a real stiff in the Fed. But that's for another day. If I had the help of the Fed, it would be easier. But that jerk will be gone soon.

[Sarah]

That jerk will be gone soon. That's interesting from a president who said on Sunday that he knew nothing about this investigation into Powell and it had nothing to do with him whatsoever.

[Anthony]

Right. I mean, he was, he was pretty explicit. But you know, we've heard Donald Trump talk about prosecuting his political adversaries before. I mean, he was explicit with James Comey and Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York. And then indictments came out just a few days later. He hasn't said anything like that about Jerome Powell, but I think most people think that that is what he's thinking. Certainly a lot of the Republicans who have come out and condemned what Donald Trump did imply, that that was what, that Trump was one behind this. That is, this didn't just come out of nowhere, but we do see a lot of this hysteria, could I call it concern over something Donald Trump does with the economy, whether it's tariffs now or interest rates or the spending bill and the stock market drops. And then Sarah, as you mentioned, it goes back up again. Nothing seems to be able to put a lasting dent in the economy, at least so far. Whether that's because people realize their worst fears are being realized, they think Donald Trump is More bluster after a day or two to kind of mull over it. But for one reason or another, the economy keeps chugging along. Now, the business cycle being what it is, the economy will eventually have a downturn, but predictions of its demise have been greatly exaggerated over the course of the last year.

[Host in London]

But isn't that why, actually the financial community, both inside the US and actually worldwide, have taken this relatively calmly? When you think of the stakes, I mean, this is a huge, huge deal. You know, it's alongside, I don't know, snatching Maduro or all the other kind of big kinetic things that Donald Trump has done or ordered. This, if he goes ahead with it and if there is a full criminal prosecution, is a massive deal because of the impact that it has. But actually, business people in the United States, financiers inside the United States at Wall street, but also really crucially, the bond markets around the world, the people who lend America money and would be very worried about rampant inflation in the future. I don't think they think that your television judge, Sarah, is really going to get anywhere with this. Isn't that right? And as Anthony, as you say, the Supreme Court is about to. I mean, it's a different case, isn't it? But if the Supreme Court decides that the president can't get rid of someone unless they've got very good reason to do it, that presumably bolsters Jerome Powell's standing.

[Anthony]

And it is funny. One of the things the Supreme Court has said in past cases where it's been looking over Donald Trump's decision to fire supposedly independent heads of agencies is that the Federal Reserve is different. It's somehow unique. And so a lot of people who are going to be watching the court here are expecting the court to come out and say you have to have more evidence in order to remove a Fed governor than just you don't like the person's politics or you have some sort of unconfirmed allegations of impropriety, which is what we have in the case of Lisa Cook. So it's not to the point, I guess we can say, where the people who really do hold the levers of power in the economy, the global economy, are too worried about Trump. They catch their breath every so often. They express surprise. The monocles pop out of their eyes every now and then. But as far as really being down on all of this and worrying about worst case scenarios, they don't seem to be buying into that.

[Host in London]

Do we think Jerome Powell carries on this fight now and you were suggesting he's going to Stick around anyway when he's not chair. Has Donald Trump picked an enemy who could actually be quite an awkward one?

[Anthony]

Yeah, if he sticks around, I mean, that's one vote that is going to be for keeping interest rates more based upon the economic conditions. As has been traditionally observed, if the economy continues to click along, they're not going to cut them nearly as much as Donald Trump wants. Trump will still have the chance to name Powell's replacement as Fed Chair, which is an incredibly influential position. One of the names I've heard floated is Kevin Hassett, who is at the White House all the time. He's an economic adviser of Donald Trump. He certainly seems in favor of being more aggressive with cutting interest rates. But that'll be an interesting fight if people like Thom Tillis dig in their heels. And other Republicans who would be normally his allies in the Senate don't want to confirm who he picks because they're worried that Trump is exerting too much influence over the Federal Reserve. It could set up another kind of a head to head battle between Trump and Republicans in the legislature just a few months before the midterm elections when a lot of these senators are going to be running for a reelection. Are much more concerned about what voters think than what Donald Trump thinks. Maybe for the the first time so far since Trump came back to the White House.

[Sarah]

One who's not running for election, of course, is the said Thom Tillis, which is why he's suddenly so empowered. Suddenly you see him standing up to Donald Trump now. He knows he doesn't need to get reelected. Okay, let's talk about Greenland. There's a lot of news recently about Donald Trump's desire to take over Greenland. But there's a big event here in Washington today because the foreign ministers of Greenland and Denmark came to the White House to have a meeting with Marco Rubio and then some at the last minute. Vice President J.D. vance insisted on joining the meeting as well. I don't know how happy they would have been about that, but. And this is a meeting they've been wanting to get for ages, isn't it? Because this is absolutely crucial for them.

[Anthony]

Yeah, this is serious. This is something that Denmark is taking seriously. This is something that America's NATO allies are taking seriously because Donald Trump has not stopped talking about annexing, buying, somehow taking control of Greenland since he came back to the White House a year ago.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And blow my own trumpet once more and say I asked him just last week in the White House about this, why it was so important that he felt to own it rather than just be able to use the military base that they've got there or increase his military presence in Greenland. And he said, you don't defend something if you just have a lease on it the same way you do if you own it. So he's very determined about he wants to take control of Greenland. And just before this meeting, if they were nervous at all these foreign ministers, they woke up to see that he had posted on, on social media. The United States needs Greenland for the purpose of national security. It's vital for the golden dome that we're building. NATO should be leading the way for us to get it. If we don't, Russia or China will, and that's not going to happen. And then he went on at great length to explain why it would be absolutely unacceptable for anything less than the United States taking full control of Greenland. So, I mean, that was setting the stakes pretty high before the foreign ministers of both Greenland and Denmark walked into the White House.

[Anthony]

Right, let's listen to the Foreign Minister of Denmark, Lars Loga Rasmussen, talk about the meeting.

[Lars Løkke Rasmussen]

We had what I will describe as a frank but also constructive discussion. The discussions focused on how to ensure the long term security in Greenland. And here our perspectives continue to differ. I must say the President has made his view clear and we have a different position. We, the Kingdom of Denmark, continue to believe that also the long term security of Greenland can be ensured inside the current framework. The 1951 agreement on the defence of Greenland as well as the NATO treaty for US ideas that would not respect territorial integrity of the Kingdom of Denmark and the right of self determination of the Greenlandic people are of course totally unacceptable. And we therefore still have a fundamental disagreement, but we also agree to disagree.

[Sarah]

Fundamental disagreement and a frank but constructive conversation. That does not sound like they really agreed on anything, does it, Anthony?

[Anthony]

It doesn't. And as he spells out there, they don't want to cede Greenland, they want to respect the territorial integrity of their kingdom. And if that's their starting point and Donald Trump's coming into this saying, we want Greenland, we're going to do anything we have to do in order to get Greenland, it's essential, then you're not going to find grounds to compromise. And I think it's interesting because NATO, the Europeans, Denmark, have been taking Donald Trump's concerns at face value. Oh, you know, there's worries about Russia and China. Oh, there's not enough done to ensure that Greenland, with its, you know, tens of thousands of people is secure. We're going to increase the amount of military presence there. Germany, I think, announced they're sending a dozen troops. Greenland is sending more troops there. The reality is that's not going to satisfy Donald Trump. And so all of these steps and all of these negotiations seem to are never going to resolve the fundamental disagreement here. And I don't think unless Donald Trump backs off, it's going to go away.

[Sarah]

Because they're talking past each other, I suppose. Because also in that press conference logo, Rasmussen pointed out that there is an existing agreement. He was referring to it there as 1951 treaty. That means that America can install pretty much as much military equipment and people as it wants there. It's got very, very wide access. And Donald Trump was talking in his social media post about the golden dome that he wants to put it, which is a Star wars kind of missile defense system. And he thinks that he would need to station some defensive missiles on Greenland. Well, he could do that under this existing agreement, but it wouldn't involve him owning it. And yeah, as you say, that does seem to be what he's got his heart set on to increase the territorial landmass of the United States. But also, of course, there is a conversation we had, isn't there, about the critical minerals that could be extracted from Greenland, especially once the ice starts.

[Anthony]

And they said they're open to American investment and mineral development. But I think you get at the real point here and that is changing the color of Greenland on a map.

[Sarah]

It still seems inconceivable to talk about military action to seize Greenland, which is essentially NATO territory. It seems extremely unlikely that any financial offer would be enough to allow him to buy it, which we think is his preferred option. Marco Rudio has indicated he'd rather buy it than invade it. They all seem so far fetched. It's, it's difficult to imagine where we go from here. But he doesn't look like he's giving up.

[Anthony]

Hey, talk about a military option. As I mentioned, Germany's moving troops there. There may be other Danish troops there. That's almost like a tripwire, right? This is what you do when you're dealing with an adversary. You put troops on the front lines. That way if there's some sort of a military incursion, it escalates quickly because you have to shoot someone to get it. You can't just land troops on the frozen tundra of Greenland and begin to occupy it. There would be a conflict.

[Sarah]

And we should be clear, Anthony, that you're absolutely right. The Danes are sending more troops to Greenland. The Germans have agreed to do so. The UK are talking about sending troops there as well. Not to defend against an American incursion, but rather in order to show to Donald Trump that they and NATO are taking the security of Greenland very, very seriously. And he doesn't need to come and take it over because actually, look what they're doing. They're doing everything that he could want. But Donald Trump has been very dismissive of those efforts up until now. He said that all Denmark's done up until this point is add one more dog sled. And in fact, just today, the Danish foreign minister hit back at that comment.

[Lars Løkke Rasmussen]

The Kingdom of Denmark has already stepped up our own contribution by committing additional fund for military capabilities. Not dock slates, but ships, drones, fighter jets, etc. And we are definitely ready to do more.

[Anthony]

Ready to do more. And they are promising to do more. Not enough, however, in Donald Trump's mind, I'm sure.

[Sarah]

Well, we'll be talking about this again, I'm sure, Anthony, many, many times.

[Anthony]

All right, well you have a good one. We'll be back soon. Bye bye.

[Host in London]

Thank you for listening to another episode. It is you, the ameracaster that makes americast the community that it now is. If you like what you've heard, please do subscribe to this podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We always want to hear your feedback as well. We look at every single bit of correspondence that we get so you can send us an email. AmericaSTBC.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericaST Discord server. The link to that is in the description. Till next time, Bye bye.

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