Charlie Kirk's killing: A dangerous moment for America?

Summary

Americast – “Charlie Kirk's killing: A dangerous moment for America?”

Podcast by BBC News

Episode Date: September 11, 2025
Main Hosts: Justin Webb, Sarah Smith, Mariana Montalvo

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Episode Overview

This somber episode focuses exclusively on the shocking assassination of Charlie Kirk, a highly influential conservative activist, media personality, and organizer for young Republicans. The panel, composed of BBC US correspondents, discuss the immediate events, Kirk's legacy, the escalating cycle of political violence and rhetoric in America, and the potentially profound consequences for both political discourse and the nation’s culture. The conversation explores reactions from across the political spectrum, the role of social media, and whether America is entering a new era of hostility and division.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking News: The Killing of Charlie Kirk

Timestamps: 01:13–03:47

• Details of the Incident:

  • Kirk was shot and killed at Utah Valley University while taking questions at a campus debate event.
  • He was answering a question about mass shootings shortly before being killed.
  • The perpetrator is at large, and an active manhunt is underway.

• Significance:

  • Kirk, at 31, was a pillar in the American conservative movement, founder of Turning Point USA, and highly impactful in youth political engagement.
  • His work was credited, even by sitting members of Congress, with helping secure Trump's re-election.

Quote

“It’s a much more varied thing than just the politics of it…My daughter, Clara, the American citizen, actually knew about the attack on him and his death before I did… An awful lot of people know about Charlie Kirk and feel — whether they agree with him or not…” —Justin Webb (04:02)

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2. Legacy and Influence of Charlie Kirk

Timestamps: 04:02–07:58

• Activism and Communication Style:
  • Tireless organizer, debater, and content creator, reaching far beyond conservative circles.
  • Pioneered a new model of social-media-savvy political activism aimed at young Americans.
  • Known for “rage bait” tactics, driving engagement both among supporters and critics.

Quote

“He was prolific—a broadcaster and podcaster…taking part in live debates himself all of the time. He said he would take on debate anybody who wanted to come and disagree with him.”
—Sarah Smith (05:24)

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3. Polarizing Positions and Confrontational Style

Timestamps: 07:58–10:32

• Montage of Kirk's Views:
  • Played controversial clips: hardline anti-abortion, outspoken stances on LGBTQ issues, race, gun rights, and opposition to empathy as policy.
  • Instrumental in shifting formerly fringe right-wing ideas—on abortion and race—into mainstream debate.

Quote

“…He moved issues like what he's talking about on abortion, on race into the mainstream argument. He was material in taking what were kind of fringe ideas about 10 years ago or something and turning them into mainstream political discourse, which of course allowed space for Donald Trump to come in and maximize that…” —Sarah Smith (11:25)

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4. Immediate Political Responses

Timestamps: 13:07–15:43

• Trump’s Reaction:
  • Trump released an emotional, combative video, blaming left-wing rhetoric and demonization of conservatives for Kirk's death.
  • Omitted mention of left-leaning politicians who had also been victims of political violence.

Trump’s Statement

“It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree… For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers… This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today, and it must stop right now.”
—Donald Trump (13:07)

• Mainstream Response:
  • Other presidents and major politicians released unifying condemnations of political violence, contrasting with Trump's exclusionary message.

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5. Escalating Rhetoric and Polarization

Timestamps: 15:43–20:06

• Online Reaction:

  • Social media is rife with calls for “retribution” and blame, further fueling polarization.
  • Left-leaning platforms counter-blame right-wing rhetoric for creating a climate of violence.

• Cycle of Vitriol:

  • Show notes examples where both left and right have celebrated political violence or demonized opponents, building a sense of mutual grievance.

Quote

“When you have reached the point where people are applauding political violence…and when we talk about examples of violence that have happened across the political spectrum, including targeting people on the left…both sides are guilty of rejoicing and celebrating.”
—Mariana Montalvo (20:06)

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6. Cultural Reverberations and Kirk as a Martyr

Timestamps: 21:58–23:54

• Generational Impact:
  • Kirk represented a type of conservative “monoculture” figure for Gen Z — both widely known and emotionally polarizing.
  • His death is described as “profoundly reverberating” across political and cultural lines.

Quote

“He will be seen as a martyr. Donald Trump described him as a martyr last night. And that's gonna have a pretty profound influence as well, I think.”
—Sarah Smith (23:54)

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7. Notable Public Figures’ Responses

Timestamps: 25:23–27:34

• Bipartisan Condemnations:

  • Every living president, including Obama, Biden, and Gavin Newsom, issued strong statements against political violence.
  • Gabby Giffords, herself a victim of an assassination attempt, issued a heartfelt response.

• Tone Among Lawmakers:

  • Some, like AOC, pivoted quickly to policy issues such as gun control, seen as tonally jarring to the panel.
  • Others indulged in open partisanship and “revenge” rhetoric, heightening concern about the tenor of public discourse.

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8. The Erosion of Old Norms and Social Media’s Role

Timestamps: 29:23–32:27

• New Age of Political Communication:
  • Traditional rules of restraint have eroded; politicians increasingly play to their bases online, intensifying divides.
  • Social media platforms and algorithms are identified as critical in fostering the current landscape of outrage and extremism.

Quote

“There is very little focus on…these very rich, unaccountable [social media] companies who, if you removed the platforms…if algorithms and recommendation systems didn’t exist in the way that they do, I don’t think any of this would have ever happened…I just don’t think it would be the same.”
—Mariana Montalvo (31:38)

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9. Historical Context, Dangers, and Enduring Institutions

Timestamps: 32:27–34:03

• Perspective from the Past:
  • The US has survived eras of extreme political violence before (e.g., the late 1960s–70s).
  • The hosts debate whether the nation’s institutions and civic norms are resilient enough to weather the current storm.

Quote

“America goes through these awful paroxysms of rage and distress and comes out of them the other side…there is still at least a chance…that the nation will come to its senses.”
—Justin Webb (32:27)

• Kirk’s Place in History:
  • Sarah Smith stresses that while history offers some hope, the current moment is extraordinary and may have lasting consequences.

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10. Final Reflections and a Call for Debate

Timestamps: 30:09–31:13

• Utah Governor’s Statement:
  • Emphasizes the foundational importance of free speech and debate, warning that assassinating someone for their ideas threatens the core of American democracy.

Quote

“When someone takes the life of a person because of their ideas or their ideals, then that very constitutional foundation is threatened.”
—Governor of Utah (30:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump’s fiery blame:

“This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today, and it must stop right now.”
(13:57–14:21)

• Emily from Megyn Kelly's show:

“He’s almost as close to monoculture as Gen Z gets. Everybody felt like they knew Charlie Kirk, even if they didn’t like Charlie Kirk.”
(22:28)

• South Park as cultural milestone:

“To be on South Park in any way, shape or form…I mean, Donald Trump is a lot at the moment and possibly in a form and a shape that he doesn’t want to be. But for most people, it’s the honor of a lifetime to be parodied on South [Park].”
—Justin Webb (23:54)

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Conclusion

This episode captures the shock, grief, and fear radiating out from the assassination of Charlie Kirk—underscoring his larger-than-life presence in conservative youth politics, the dangerous feedback loop of political rhetoric and violence, and the historic volatility facing American democracy. The panel is at once analytical and deeply concerned, concluding with reminders that both political resilience and civic values are under historic strain.

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Key Timestamps

• 01:13 – Introduction to the killing of Charlie Kirk
• 03:47 – Kirk’s influence and legacy
• 07:58 – Montage of controversial Kirk positions
• 13:07 – Donald Trump’s video response
• 15:43 – Listener question: Trump’s rhetoric and consequences
• 17:11 – Social media reactions and polarization
• 21:58 – Cultural impact and martyrdom
• 25:23 – Bipartisan reactions and Gabby Giffords’ statement
• 27:34 – Congressional finger-pointing
• 30:21 – Utah Governor on free speech foundations
• 31:38 – Social media’s role in perpetuating division
• 32:27 – Historical context and hope for American resilience

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This summary provides a detailed, structured overview covering all major themes, standout quotes, and the emotional and analytical tone of the Americast team. It serves as a comprehensive companion for those who missed the episode or wish to revisit its urgent themes.

Transcript

[Justin Webb]

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[Charlie Kirk]

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[BBC News Announcer]

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[Mariana Montalvo]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts.

[Justin Webb]

America is once again facing the horror of political violence. Charlie Kirk was not elected to any high office, but he was an enormously influential voice on the right of American politics. He was only 31 years old. He leaves behind him a wife and two young children. He was a friend of President Trump and he did a huge amount to get President Trump elected for his second term. What impact is the killing of Charlie Kirk going to have on the United states? Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.

[BBC News Announcer]

AmericasT from BBC News.

[Donald Trump]

You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War three.

[Charlie Kirk]

President Trump's message is very simple. We are done being taken advantage of.

[BBC News Announcer]

Mr. President, in the name of our.

[Justin Webb]

God, have mercy upon the people who are scared.

[Sarah Smith]

Now. Are you supportive of these onesies?

[Justin Webb]

I'm supportive of vaccines.

[Sarah Smith]

What is happening?

[Mariana Montalvo]

Like, this is not America.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is a terrible nightmare. This is what victory feels like.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington bureau.

[Justin Webb]

And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of Miracast in London, England.

[Mariana Montalvo]

And it is Mariana sitting next to Justin in the worldwide headquarters.

[Justin Webb]

Only one subject to discuss today, Mariana, bring us up to date. Tell us what we know about what happened.

[Mariana Montalvo]

So I'm sure that a lot of people who are listening to this episode, Americasters, will have heard the news about Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk, who was 31 years old, was a very, very prominent conservative activist Social media influencer, media personality. And he was starting this around different university campuses because he's really well known for having debates with students about particular issues, people he doesn't agree with, people he agrees with. And he was at Utah Valley University yesterday speaking inside a white tent when he was shot and killed. There are loads of very, very, very graphic clips of this, which, to be honest, have been quite hard to. To miss, really, that are quite disturbing. And he was actually answering a question about mass shootings in America just. Just moments before he was killed. So.

[Charlie Kirk]

Do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years?

[Justin Webb]

Too many.

[Mariana Montalvo]

It's fine.

[Charlie Kirk]

Okay, now, five is a lot, right?

[Justin Webb]

I'm gonna give you.

[Charlie Kirk]

I'll give you some credit. Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the last 10 years, counting or not counting gang violence?

[Mariana Montalvo]

We know he was shot and killed. We know that there's an active manhunt right now for the person who did it. So this story is very much evolving. And as ever, that means there's a huge vacuum in terms of people speculating about why this happened and how it happened and everything else.

[Justin Webb]

When you say right at the beginning, Marianne, he's a huge figure. You can't overestimate, actually, can you? His reach really, among young Americans, the importance of him. I was talking to a congressman earlier today who said he thought. He actually thought that Donald Trump would not have won last time round without Charlie Kirk's help. So he was an extraordinary figure. He brought to Trump a load of young people who I don't think otherwise would have bothered to vote. But it's a much more varied thing, isn't it, than just the politics of it? Because he had this podcast, and my daughter Clara, the American citizen, very aware of him, actually knew about the attack on him and his death before I did. Friends of hers, I was talking to her. Who are not American citizens, just young people in Britain in their twenties. An awful lot of people know about Charlie Kirk and feel whether they agree with him or not, and plenty, actually, who are aware of him don't necessarily agree with him because he had some pretty extreme views on all sorts of things. But there is just this sense, exactly as you said. He. He was a talker. He was someone who wasn't just spouting off his own stuff and just putting it out there. He actually wanted to engage people. And it seems to me, isn't that right, Sarah, that that is the key to who he was and what he was trying to do.

[Sarah Smith]

Oh, absolutely. And he was prolific. I mean, he was a broadcaster and a podcaster spreading this message, but at the same time he was out there organizing youth groups and students as well as taking part in live debates himself all of the time. And that was one of the things that he did. He said he would take on debate anybody who wanted to come and disagree with him. Now, as you say, there were a lot, a lot of people who didn't agree with him. But among those who think that he was absolutely material to Donald Trump being returned to the White House is Donald Trump himself and close members of his family and many important people in the administration. So they are in shock at the moment about this. I was at the White House yesterday when firstly when the news came in that he had been shot and there were gasps around the place and people looking extremely worried about it. It became obvious quite quickly that the White House had a bit more information than was being released publicly yet. And Donald Trump started referring to Charlie Kirk in the past tense before there had been an announcement about him actually having been killed. By the time that information was widely known, people were openly in tears. White House staff and a lot of people then gathered on the North Lawn to watch the flags over the White House being lowered to half mast, which happen pretty quickly. And you could tell there's always shock when there's a political killing like this. But this was sadness, grief and anger that was perpetrating the White House. And that is a measure of what a big figure Charlie Kirk was, but also what impact this might have.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Yeah, I don't really think it's possible to overstate how influential Charlie Kirk has been because in lots of ways he's the pioneer of a certain type of blueprint for a certain type of political influencer or activist in the social, social media age. He started this group Turning Point USA when he was just 18 and the whole point of it was to, to spread conservative ideals, to talk about conservative issues, discussions at what were considered liberal leaning, left leaning U. S Colleges, often on very, very controversial subjects. But I think it is worth saying that one of the reasons why Charlie Kirk was so effective at what he did is because he was very, very good at getting that content, clips of him, clips from his podcast, promoted to people beyond the echo chamber as well, people who don't agree with you, because a lot of this is about outrage. It's often what we call sort of rage, bait. And his positions, therefore, there are some people who really, really, really took serious offense to some of the positions he held and Others who, who liked them.

[Justin Webb]

Let's hear a few of those positions.

[Sarah Smith]

Why I believe that abortion should be legal is because of instances like rape and incest. But I already know that your belief.

[Mariana Montalvo]

On that because you've already stated that if your daughter were to be raped at 10 years old, you would make her give birth to the baby.

[Charlie Kirk]

Well, the baby would be delivered and let me tell you why. And so, but first of all, let me try to find common ground. If I say we will make rape and incest abortions legal and get rid of all the other abortions, would you agree with that?

[Mariana Montalvo]

Yeah.

[BBC News Announcer]

See, I don't believe that abortion should.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Be used as a form of birth control.

[Charlie Kirk]

So 99% of the time it is. That's all that we're debating in the country right now. So Charlie Kirk's position is a very fringe minority. People are talking about still exceptions. So we should get rid of 99% of abortions.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Yes, but at the same time, I'm.

[Charlie Kirk]

A gay conservative and I just want to kind of ask you, like what do you have to say for people like me who kind of feel like it's kind of hard for gay conservatives because there's not a lot of us. So like what do you have to say to other gay people who need to realize like they do have a choice? Yeah, first of all, welcome to the conservative movement. I don't think you should introduce yourself just based on your sexual attraction. No, I agree. I like, because that's not who you are. I like to be thought of as a person. And for sure you are a complete human being and I'm sure you treat people well and you're studying something. So I want to get away with this idea that you're gay. Anything. I just think that we have gone a long way in the negative direction in this country where we act as if the most important part of your identity is what you do in the bedroom. It doesn't mean that much to me. But if you ask from a perspective as a Christian, I don't agree with that lifestyle. You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I think it's worth it. I think it's worth to have a cost of unfortunately some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God given rights. The new communication strategy is not to do what Bill Clinton used to do where he would say I feel your pain instead it is to say you're actually not in pain. So let's just a little very short clip. Bill Clinton in the 1990s, it was all about empathy and sympathy. I can't stand the word empathy, actually. I think empathy is a made up new age term that does a lot of damage. And the Civil Rights act, though, let's be clear, created a beast and that beast has now turned into an anti white weapon. No, I mean like you want to go thought crime. Like, I'm sorry, if I see a black pilot, I'm going to be like, boy, I hope he's qualified. So like you right now should come out and be like, you know what, the young man who's about to win the state championship in the long jump in female sports, that's that, that shouldn't happen. You as the governor should step out and say no, no. And I appreciate but like would you do something like that? Would you say no Men in female sports?

[Justin Webb]

Well, it's, I think it's an issue of fairness. I completely agree with you on that. That actually that last clip that we heard there was really fascinating because that was with Gavin Newsom and Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, when he decided to do outreach to those who are the enemies of the Democrats. The first person he chose was Charlie Kirk. And for all that he's labeled by some as an extremist and all the rest of it, he felt that Charlie Kirk was the right person to come on his show and to defend, indeed to proselytize for the right wing point of view. And he, Gavin Newsom would come up against him. And of course that actual their discussion there caused quite a news stir because Newson chose, I don't think it was forced out of him by Charlie Kirk, but Newsom chose that moment to say on this issue, Charlie Kirk, which is men and women's sports, he, Gavin Newsom was willing to be persuaded by Charlie Kirk.

[Sarah Smith]

Some Americans might be a little bit shocked by some of the things that he said in that montage because they're not part of mainstream debate in the uk, but they are of course talked about much, much more often in the US and that's one of the things that Charlie Kirk did, was not just enthuse young people and get them involved and excited in politics, but he moved issues like what he's talking about on abortion, on race into the mainstream argument. He was material in taking what were kind of fringe ideas about 10 years ago or something and turning them into mainstream political discourse, which of course allowed space for Donald Trump to come in and maximize that, because he wasn't just somebody who disseminated a Trump message. He helped to shape that message. He took some of Donald Trump's more raw political instincts and had a way of honing them into something that was easier and better to communicate than Donald Trump himself sometimes articulates these things and spread them through the political debate, making them both acceptable, popular, and thus paving the way for Donald Trump and very much, certainly for his second term. And this is one of the reasons why he will be missed so very, very badly by people in the administration who are devastated by this and by people in the wider movement, because he was an intellectual of it all, who both had his fingers on the pulse of the grassroots and could that back to the White House and also take what Donald Trump wanted to do and help find a way of selling that. And that's almost certainly why Donald Trump sounded quite as angry as he did when he recorded a video in the Oval Office that he then put out last night.

[Donald Trump]

This is a dark moment for America. Charlie Kirk traveled the nation joyfully, engaging with everyone interested in good faith debate. His mission was to bring young people into the political process, which he did better than anybody ever, to share his love of country and to spread the simple words of common sense on campuses nationwide. He championed his ideas with courage, logic, humor, and grace. It's a long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals. This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today, and it must stop right now.

[Sarah Smith]

I was shocked when I watched the President doing that last night because that is certainly not the message you normally get from top politicians at a time like this, when there has been this kind of political violence and atrocity. It's usually a moment of unity when everybody from all sides of the political debate come together and condemn political violence. And that's what was happening with every living former president put out a statement saying, this is completely unacceptable. This is not who America is. It is undermining our democracy to have political violence like this. But not Donald Trump, who, of course he was angry, but was demonizing part of the political debate, blaming them for Charlie Kirk's murder. And he then went on to list a number of other Republicans who've been attacked, referencing, of course, the attempt on his own life in Butler last year, which was absolutely terrible. But he left off that list the Minnesota lawmaker who was shot in her home with her husband a few months ago. Another one who was attacked. He missed out the attack on Joe Shapiro, the Democrat governor's house in Pennsylvania. You know, he listed only people from the right who had been attacked and blamed the left for it. And I was genuinely worried that it sounded incendiary. And I think, Justin, we've had an email on this topic as well, haven't we?

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. It comes from Mike in Portsmouth who says, I've just watched Trump's response to the Charlie Kirk shooting. He seems to be going full partisan rather than trying to calm the situation. He's pouring mountains of petrol on it. Can you have a mountain of petrol anyway? Yeah, he says. Mike also says it's almost as if he's going to use it as an excuse to try and become ever more authoritarian, even more authoritarian than he was trying to become anyway. Am I reading it wrong? Mike asks. I hope so, because from where I'm sitting, the omens of that response are not good. I was thinking as well, just to back up what you were saying, Sarah, as well, when we were listening to Charlie Kirk on the subject of abortion, certainly when I was doing your job, attacks on abortion clinics were a really big deal. Attacks by people who regarded themselves as right wings and abortion as a progressive left cause, which I suppose it generally is, and abortion rights as a progressive left cause. And it became, you know, when you go to an abortion clinic, as we all have done in our professional lives, to go and talk to people, because it has been such an issue in American politics and culture recently. You know, there is security, there is real fear. And there were killings as well. I mean, there were murders. So it's not just that Minnesota case that you mentioned that is from this year. There is also a wider way in which, if you are on the left, the kind of moderate left, you might say, well, hang on a second, Donald Trump should have mentioned exactly as Sarah said. Mariana should have mentioned a few other things as well.

[Mariana Montalvo]

You need only scroll on X. Obviously, there is a huge amount of grief, outpouring of support, upset for Charlie Kirk, his wife, his two little kids. But then there's also, there's really violent language being used to kind of say, right, we need retribution. This is it, we've had enough. The left need to stop this. And then if you look on, for example, TikTok, which has got a bit of a different demographic, demographic to X. You've then got people on the left who are saying, well, hang on a second, you know, these kinds of influences use violent rhetoric and the politicians do on the right. And this is the consequence of that. And it becomes this, you know, it further entrenches the polarization which people have said that they're worried about.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, I just. Sarah, my feeling, I think you're exactly right in what you were saying about, about what Trump said. But there is a sense, isn't there, and it's a reasonable sense, that a lot of people on the right in America recently, including Donald Trump himself, have been targeted, called authoritarian, called fascist, called whatever, and that has somehow allowed a whole cohort of people, and it is often young people and it's often online, so maybe they don't quite mean it or whatever, to use incredibly violent rhetoric in a way that maybe they wouldn't have done in the past. I mean, I'm thinking, Sarah, about Luigi Mangione, the guy who's accused of killing that insurance executive in New York. People will remember he was shot in the street. He's got a wife and a young family. I mean, that death, I mean, it's not putting it too sharply to say it's been actually celebrated by some on the American left who say the insurance companies have got it coming to them and this individual had it coming to them, et cetera. There is a kind of nastiness there that, albeit I agree with you about Trump, generally speaking, but I mean, he is pointing at something that is real.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Oh, he is.

[Sarah Smith]

He is. Just because I'm saying he didn't reflect that it was happening on both sides doesn't mean that he hasn't put his finger on something about the vicious language that's used on both sides of the debate. But, yes, people like Charlie Kirk are regularly being compared to Nazis and mass murderers. Luigi Mangione genuinely celebrated around the country by some people who think it was heroic to go up to a health care executive and murder them in the street. And when you have reached the point where people are applauding political violence, and of course, we know that Donald Trump feels this very viscerally because he knows how close he came to losing his life just over a year ago in Butler, Pennsylvania, so. And then there was, you know, another pretty realistic assassination attempt on him a few months later as well. So, you know, he, he feels it, you know, viscerally frightening. This is. So I'm not surprised that he's got, you know, a pretty strong reaction to it.

[Mariana Montalvo]

I do think that we, we should also point out, you know, when we talk about examples of violence that have happened across the political spectrum, including targeting people on the left, we think of, for example, the attack on Nancy Pelosi, the, the former speaker of the House's husband, and political violence that was triggered, for example, by the suggestion that the election was stolen when Joe Biden won. There was also on the right, support for some of the people who'd done this stuff. There. There was like, there were people who, who kind of celebrated the, the man who attacked Nancy Pelosi's husband or spread conspiracy theories about that. So I think it's worth saying that the, the level of polarization here is huge. Like, both sides are guilty of rejoicing and celebrating. I think what people on the right on social media would argue is, well, yeah, okay, we'll do that, but we are much more open to debate and discussion, and the left aren't. The left would say, well, hang on a second. You know, you are always the people telling us that words, you know, words don't matter online. It's, it's inconsequential. Why are you worried about the consequence of it? Etc? And now you are. So there's like, levels of hypocrisy sort of across the board here when it comes to the positions that people are taking. I think what is worth explaining, though, when we talk about that language that Donald Trump used and actually some of the language that's being used on X, which is really quite violent and quite scary, this language is incredibly common. Like, I think people can't, you know, there are lots of people who are really shocked today because they're looking at it, but it's used all the time. And I think that that visceral reaction that we're seeing online and even from the president comes down to what a big deal Charlie Kirk was and how he felt like a family member or someone who was really, really close to Donald Trump. And actually to huge amounts of the American public who knew him really, really well, last night on the Megyn Kelly show, conservative media comment, she captured this, which is why people feel so. This is so emotional.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And just to say about Emily before we play the clip, and it's a really interesting exchange because it's with Megyn Kelly, isn't it? Who we also talked to, I think we've talked to on the pod and I've certainly talked to on my other job in the Today program. I don't know her as well, but Emily I know well, and she is a conservative commentator, but she's also someone who's very fair minded. And this exchange, I think, which you're going to introduce now, I think is fascinating because in a sense it's underlines what Sarah's just been saying, that this is a really big cultural deal as well.

[Mariana Montalvo]

I mean, he's almost as close to monoculture as Gen Z gets. Everybody felt like they knew Charlie Kirk, even if they didn't like Charlie Kirk. They felt like they knew Charlie Kirk. They felt like they knew Charlie Kirk.

[Charlie Kirk]

And they saw him grow up.

[Sarah Smith]

And so I think you've mentioned this.

[Charlie Kirk]

A couple of times.

[Sarah Smith]

We are, if anything, underestimating as a.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Society right now how profoundly this will.

[Sarah Smith]

Reverberate on the culture.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Yeah.

[Sarah Smith]

Yes. This. I don't, I don't know if the left fully comprehends how important he was to us. I really don't. I'm not sure they appreciate. They, they try to marginalize him and make him into this fringy character who was just some sort of nutcase who would go on campuses and stir up shit. And that is such a misrepresentation of this noble person. Love him or hate him. I think the left would make a big mistake if they were to underestimate the influence that Charlie Kirk had, but also the affection within which he was held because of the way he conducted himself. He had very confrontational points of view, he had some quite controversial ideas, but he was always, you know, he was open to debate, he was genial, he was extremely charismatic, and he clearly had quite a long way to go in American politics as well. So, you know, he will be seen as a martyr. Donald Trump described him as a martyr last night. And that's gonna have a pretty profound influence as well, I think.

[Justin Webb]

And it's worth mentioning, isn't it? I mean, when it comes to being a cultural icon, if we're really underlining just how key he was and what a big hole is going to be there now and how angry people are going to be to be on south park in any way, shape or form, I mean, Donald Trump is a lot at the moment and possibly in a form and a shape that he doesn't want to be. But for most people, it's the honor of a lifetime to be parodied on South. And in the current series of South Park, Charlie Kirk was. And he liked it, first of all.

[Charlie Kirk]

I just think it's hilarious. And secondly, the whole thing is like, wait, so a campus thing? I've been doing for 13 years to debate random college kids has now been so important that it gets prominent primetime placement on Comedy Central. I think. I think the whole thing is just awesome and hilarious. There's so much more I want to say about this, but the whole schtick. By the way, Comedy Central, you, South park, you crushed the water. I compulsively drink water on campus. It's like, okay, boom, we gotta stay hydrated. Now the lozenges. We gotta work a little. And by the way, the Holy Bible right next to it. I even said on this campus tour I was gonna bring a holy Bible with me to every single campus stop.

[Sarah Smith]

I mean, that does sum up, to a certain extent, the way in which he was, you know, he was able to take a message out into the wider cult and, you know, and enjoy and not mind being mocked about it. That was part of his charisma.

[Justin Webb]

It's worth saying, isn't it, Sarah? And we maybe ought to have mentioned this more prominently, but we mention it now that mainstream Democratic politicians have been unanimous in coming out and making very strong statements. And senior people. So we heard from Obama, didn't we? And Biden and Gavin Newsom.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Every living president has, right? Have they? Yeah.

[Justin Webb]

I didn't know that. They all have. Yeah. Yeah. But also, Sarah, more than that, you know, a lot of Democrats have made it absolutely plain that those who have celebrated this death are not speaking for them.

[Sarah Smith]

Oh, absolutely. And you even heard from Gabby Giffords, a former Democratic congresswoman who herself was shot a few years ago in an assassination attempt, saying that she was absolutely heartbroken and that this was completely terrible. And, yeah, the normal response to condemn the violence and say that this must stop and it must not happen again has been through most of the political mainstream. But I think the issue here is that we're not just talking about on the fringes of the Internet. We're talking about a lot of pretty senior and very influential people who, either on social media or on television, are going a bit further than they would normally and are talking about revenge and retribution. And I've heard a lot of very important MAGA figures on TV using words like that. And it's not just on the right, you know, on the left as well. If you listen to what Alexandria Ocasio Cortez had to say, and this is a more measured message from her, but it's still not what you would expect in a moment like this.

[BBC News Announcer]

We have a political assassination that happened at the same time as a school shooting where children. Children are dying on the Same day a week after a shooting at a Catholic school where children were gunned down while praying. Are we going to do something or are we going to argue over rhetoric? That is my question about this. We have to pass gun safety legislation and stop this.

[Justin Webb]

One congresswoman was saying, was yelling. A Republican said that it was Democrats fault. Democrats did this. That's what we heard her say on.

[Sarah Smith]

The House, House floor.

[BBC News Announcer]

I mean, people can finger point all they want. Look at the record, look at the actions of what we are doing. I don't think a single person who has dedicated their entire career to preventing gun safety legislation from getting passed in this House has any right to blame anybody else but themselves for what is happening. We have to stop this.

[Justin Webb]

Gosh, Sarah. We talked a little bit about Donald Trump's tone and whether he had hit the right tone, the kind of tone that you would expect in these circumstances. If she wants to be president, which I think she does, I'm not sure that that is quite the tone either. I found that equally shocking, actually. I mean, given that this is a man of 31 with two little children. That seemed to me to be tonally wrong.

[Sarah Smith]

And she of course was responding to the fact that other elected politicians in Congress were blaming Democrats for this happening. I mean, I can't remember a time when there has been finger pointing to this extent or at this level and certainly not so quickly after somebody has been murdered essentially in front of our eyes. Because we can all see these kind of things now as well. This is why I think it just, it feels to me that there is something slightly different about the tone here. Very different even than there was last year after the attempt on Donald Trump's life, which, you know, when fortunately he was not badly injured. It's just there's something febrile in the way that people who frankly know better have been responding to this.

[Mariana Montalvo]

There was an old world in politics where there was a rule book and you did certain things when something bad happened and you calmed it down. And now that you're playing to your audiences online, like if she's, if she doesn't sound like that, she'll get absolutely piled upon by the left wing people that follow her. Which is not to say that that's right, but you can see how. And also, you know, she's consuming, like politicians themselves, particularly younger politicians will be across the board consuming information in their echo chambers as well. So the way they view events is different as well. And lots of things can all be true at once. I think that the sad reality of this, which is the most difficult thing is it doesn't even feel like everyone can agree on the fact that whatever you think or believe, you don't deserve to be killed.

[Justin Webb]

Well, look on that. Let us give the last word then to the governor of Utah. Cause this happened, of course, as we were saying earlier at a university in Utah. And quite soon afterwards the governor spoke.

[Charlie Kirk]

This is a dark day for our state. It's a tragic day for our nation. I want to be very clear that this is a political assassination. Historically, our university campuses in this nation and here in the state of Utah have been the place where truth and ideas are formulated and debated. And that's what he does. He comes on college campuses and he debates. That is foundational to the formation of our country, to our most basic constitutional rights. And when someone takes the life of a person because of their ideas or their ideals, then that very constitutional foundation is threatened.

[Sarah Smith]

That was somebody who did strike a mature toad. And I thought that was actually. That was a very powerful speech that he gave there. And of course, he has absolutely hit the nail on the head as to what this means for debate and conversation and the free exchange of ideas, which is, yes, the. I mean, the foundation of democracy and essential to politics to operate at any kind of functional level.

[Mariana Montalvo]

Whenever we have these conversations, the conversation often centers on the different politicians involved. Obviously it will centre on whoever is responsible for this. And. And that is completely understandable and makes sense. There is very little focus on, in my view, the social media companies, these very rich, unaccountable companies who, if you removed the platforms, if they didn't exist in the way they do, if algorithms and recommendation systems didn't exist in the way that they do, I don't think any of this would have ever happened. I don't think Charlie Kirk would exist in the way he does. I don't think the rhetoric and the debate would be as it is. And that's not to say political violence hasn't existed for. For absolutely ages. Decades. Centuries. Of course it has, but I just don't think it would be the same. And no one will be asking questions of what gets us to this point, really, because ultimately all of the politicians have to play that same system in order to even exist now.

[Justin Webb]

Right, okay. Well, that's a really good point. My last thought is going to be slightly more optimistic, actually, and in a way taking issue with that. And I absolutely accept what Sarah said. This is a really critical time for America. And not only was the event itself horrific, but the potential ramifications of it are horrific, too. I absolutely accept that. But to your point about social media and all the rest of it, and you made the point yourself, Marianne, there's been political violence before. Oh my goodness, there's been political violence before in the United States. You think back to the late 60s and the early 70s. Not only the assassinations that we know about, but also a huge amount of political violence, kind of behind the scenes of genuine domestic terrorism. America goes through these awful paroxysms of rage and distress and comes out of them the other side. And I think even if it is in one of those paroxysms now, there is still at least a chance, if not a good chance, that the nation will come to its senses.

[Sarah Smith]

The Republic will endure, I'm sure. But I just think for anybody who maybe wasn't that familiar with Charlie Kirk or his place in American politics, whilst these things have happened in history before, to give this its historical context, we have to consider that we may be living in one of those moments that you say, Justin, that America has endured before and come through. But you know, this is, is this is not minor league stuff that we're talking about now.

[Justin Webb]

Okay. Well, we certainly raise an awful lot of things that people are going to be thinking about and talking about and we're going to hear unquestionably from Americasters and we'll be discussing all of this and plenty of episodes to come. That's it for now from all of us.

[Sarah Smith]

Bye, bye, bye bye.

[BBC News Announcer]

Ameracast Ameracast from BBC News.

[Justin Webb]

Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an Americaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week actually on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.

[Sarah Smith]

Sa.