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Did Donald Trump fall asleep at a cabinet meeting?
00:34:56
And why is Pete Hegseth blaming the “fog of war”?
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- [00:00]
Justin Webb
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- [01:09]
Justin Webb
For the first time, a full explanation from the Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth. Well, foolish, I suppose this was an explanation about what happened before a follow up strike on a drug boat in the Caribbean.
- [01:22]
Pete Hegseth
I did not personally see survivors, but I stand because the thing was on fire. It was exploded in fire smoke. You can't see anything. You got digital. There's this is called the fog of war.
- [01:32]
Justin Webb
The accusation being that there were a couple of people still in the water who provided no threat to anyone, but they were killed anyway and that would be a war crime. It all happened at the cabinet meeting that has just taken place. Donald Trump as well going on a rant about Somali immigrants. We will get to that. We'll look to everything else that happened in that meeting because as they always are, it was newsworthy. Welcome to AmericasT.
- [01:57]
BBC Announcer
AmericasT, AmericasT from BBC News.
- [02:02]
Anthony Zurcher
When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes sir, right away, sir.
- [02:05]
Pete Hegseth
Happy to lick your boot, sir.
- [02:07]
Anthony Zurcher
We are the sickest country in the world.
- [02:10]
BBC Announcer
Oh dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.
- [02:16]
Donald Trump
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [02:26]
Sarah Rainsford
Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington bureau.
- [02:29]
Anthony Zurcher
And it's Anthony right next to Sarah here in Washington D.C. and Justin, all.
- [02:32]
Justin Webb
On my lonesome in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England.
- [02:36]
Sarah Rainsford
Which means you're so far away, Justin. We can only virtually get around our own table to discuss what was happening at that cabinet meeting yesterday because it was quite an event with Donald Trump making a lot of news there. So we got new information about those military strikes on boats off the coast of Venezuela, which, which we heard about from the Secretary of Defense or the Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth. There was news on more immigration crackdowns in new US Cities and reasons why we're further speculating about Donald Trump's health as well.
- [03:08]
Anthony Zurcher
Right. So these Cabinet meetings have become must watch under Donald Trump. In fact, Cabinet meetings generally were snooze fests during previous presidents. They didn't happen very often. There's no requirement that a president even has to have these kind of formal sit downs in the Cabinet room with the head of all the 14 different cabinet departments, as well as the Vice president, some other senior presidential advisers. But Donald Trump likes them and he's held nine of them so far just this year. And what they end up being is several hours worth of each member of the Cabinet giving a bit of a presentation, showering Donald Trump with President praise, telling him what a great job he's doing, and then what they're doing. You go around the table, all the way around and back to Trump, and then he takes some questions from the press. And it was in those questions that most of the news that you talked about happened, although we did find out about the immigration stuff when Kristi Noem, the Homeland Security Secretary, was talking.
- [04:06]
Sarah Rainsford
If it needs to be said, this is not normal. This is not the way Cabinet meetings have been conducted in the past. So for one thing, the cameras are there for every all of this. I mean, it's very deliberately a televised event. Every Cabinet secretary saying what they've achieved in their department, as well as praising how wonderful Donald Trump is. This took 2 hours and 15 minutes yesterday for them to go around the table and then to take these questions all broadcast live on television, which left them with how long for the actual Cabinet meeting? I mean, less than an hour, I think. So, I mean, they're must watch because they're spectacles that have been devised by Donald Trump precisely for that reason.
- [04:40]
Justin Webb
And it's worth saying that even that Cabinet meeting isn't a Cabinet meeting in the sense that the British Cabinet meets and the Prime Minister is primus into pares, first among equals, and the Cabinet can gang up on him or her. And there can be all sorts of real arguments at Cabinet that doesn't happen, doesn't happen under Trump, and actually, to be fair, really hasn't happened under previous presidents. So having said that, there were things, weren't the guys that came up at this Cabinet meeting, and I'm using that with kind of inverted commas that were genuinely interesting and Newsworthy. And I suppose we should start with Pete Hegseth, with the Secretary of War, as he styles himself, because we've got this news that we've already talked about previously that there is at least an allegation that there was an order to kill people on board a boat in the Caribbean suspected of carrying drugs when the boat had been immobilized already and quite a few people were already dead. And there were two people still alive reportedly clinging to the vessel. And then a second missile was launched to comply, it is alleged, with the orders of Pete Hegseth, the Secretary for War. And what was interesting is that he, at this Cabinet meeting, gave what I think is fair to say is his first more detailed response, albeit it didn't tell us an awful lot, but it was a more detailed response to those allegations.
- [06:02]
Pete Hegseth
Now, the first couple of strikes, as you would, as any leader would want, you want to own that responsibility. So I said, I'm going to be the one to make the call after getting all the information and make sure it's the right strike. That was September 2nd. There's a lot of intelligence that goes into that, building that case and understanding that a lot of people providing information. I watched that first strike live. As you can imagine, at the Department of War, we got a lot of things to do. So I didn't stick around for the hour and two hours, whatever, where all the sensitive site exploitation digitally occurs. So I moved on to my next meeting. A couple of hours later, I learned that that commander had made the. Which he had the complete authority to do. And by the way, Admiral Bradley made the correct decision to ultimately sink the boat and eliminate the threat.
- [06:45]
Sarah Rainsford
So that's really interesting listening to that from Pete Hegseth. And I just want to parse it for you a little bit. So he says, as any leader would, you've got to own that responsibility. And he's going around saying this, you know, I'm the Secretary for War. I take responsibility for this. And then he names Admiral Bradley and goes on and on about how he made the decision which he had the authority to do. This is almost exactly what Caroline Levitt said in a briefing on Monday, naming Admiral Bradley and praising the decision that she said he made legally and had the authority to make. I think this is a very deliberate strategy from Pete Hegseth not to own responsibility for this decision, but to pin it firmly on Admiral Bradley. If you actually read carefully all of the statements that are coming out of the administration, Right.
- [07:29]
Anthony Zurcher
And it's a shifting story from this administration at first, they denied that there was any second strike. They said it was fake news. Donald Trump in comments on Air Force One over the weekend, said if there were a second strike, he wouldn't be all that happy about it. But he didn't know anything about it. Kind of laid it at Pete Hegseth's feet. Then, as you mentioned, Caroline Leavitt and the Pentagon acknowledged the second strike. And then you heard Hegseth specifically talking about it. And then he was asked in a follow up question, well, did you see any survivors when you were in the room after that first strike? And this is what he said.
- [08:04]
Pete Hegseth
I did not personally see survivors, but I stand because the thing was on fire. It was exploded in fire smoke. You can't see anything. You got digital. This is called the fog of war.
- [08:14]
Anthony Zurcher
The fog of war. Pete Hegseth loves these kind of military terms and he sprinkles them in all of his comments. But I guess what he's saying is that it's impossible to know if there were people in the sea. And then he got up and left and had all of his other meetings, so he didn't have a chance to come in. But again, getting back to what we talked about on Monday, which is if it was determined that there were survivors clinging to the side of the boat and that strike was specifically, that second strike was specifically designed to kill them in order to keep there from being any survivors, that's a violation of Pentagon rules. That's a violation of the Geneva Conventions. That would constitute a war crime. You're not allowed to shoot prisoners. You're not allowed to go on a battlefield and shoot people who are wounded and out of action, out of combat. The question, I guess then is when or if they determined that there were survivors. And what decision was made after that? And we still don't know yet, although there are congressional committees now, bipartisan groups of congressmen and women who are looking into this and want to know more.
- [09:19]
Sarah Rainsford
There's just one thing I want to clear up. In the Washington Post story that reported this first, on Friday, they said that Pete Hegseth had given the order kill everyone. Did they say when he had said that? Because if that was the order at the very beginning of the operation Kill Everyone, then Admiral Bradley could have interpreted that as an order to initiate a second strike to kill any survivors that are left without Peter Hegseth needing to know anything about there being survivors or a second strike. Or is the Washington Post alleging that after the first strike, realizing there were survivors in it was at that point that Pete Hegseth killed everyone.
- [09:54]
Justin Webb
Are we saying that there are definitely gonna be hearings now and that they'll be able to subpoena all the stuff that they need, including all the documentation and all the video, et cetera? Can we be certain that to the extent that Pete Hegseth is in difficulties over this, that it is now going to transpire, it's actually gonna happen?
- [10:12]
Anthony Zurcher
I think you've seen the chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee, a Republican, Roger Wicker, I believe, say that he wants access to the tapes, that he wants to talk to Admiral Bradley. Now, whether there's going to be public hearings. I don't think there's any indication of that yet. And usually when you get to these military committees in Congress, they tend to be a little more secretive. But I think we can also expect that if there is damaging information and they're going to see these videotapes, everything, all of these strikes are taped. If there's damaging information or things that reveal some sort of misconduct or a violation of. Of military rules and guidelines, I think we'll probably find out about that, even if there aren't formal hearings.
- [10:55]
Sarah Rainsford
So. Yeah, that's right, Anthony. There's not any public hearings scheduled yet, but Admiral Bradley is going in to speak to members of the Senate Armed.
- [11:05]
Anthony Zurcher
Services Committee, Senate and House both. So Democrats and Republicans, he's going to have a meeting with.
- [11:09]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah, but behind closed doors, presumably. We won't necessarily get to hear what they've got to ask him about what happened there. So, yeah, I think this story has got legs, as they say it. There's so many questions here about, you know, who decided what when. And I suspect there's a whiff of what's coming from the White House that suggests that we haven't been given the whole story yet.
- [11:29]
Anthony Zurcher
Right. And all of this fits into the larger questions about the legality of these strikes. I mean, this is obviously the most. The most pointed incident, the one with the most reporting. But there are questions about whether what this administration is doing targeting civilians. They aren't military. They are designating them as narco terrorists and military combatants and treating them as such. But they aren't uniformed military officers. They're civilians on boats. And we only believe that they're narco terrorists because the administration says they are. All of this is kind of operating in a legal gray area, and this is only going to make those questions all the more pointed.
- [12:11]
Justin Webb
I wonder if it either encourages or discourages the next step, as it were, which would be a land attack on Venezuela, which people have been talking about and which some in the MAGA coalition would regard as a complete abrogation of everything that Donald Trump came to power, promising not to do, essentially not to have wars around the place, not to invade countries, et cetera. The real suggestion now, including from him in a way, that that is a real danger, that they may be trying to force Maduro, the president, out, that they use military force. And I mean, you could say, well, all of this complicates that, but I suppose you could also say, couldn't you, it actually would provide a welcome distraction from the point of view of the White House and from Pete Hegseth, if they just moved ahead and there was something else for everyone to talk about.
- [12:54]
Anthony Zurcher
Yeah. And Trump himself, during that Cabinet meeting, said that land strikes are next.
- [12:59]
Donald Trump
These people have killed over 200,000 people, actually killed over 200,000 people last year. And those numbers are down. Those numbers are down. They're way down. And they're down because we're doing these strikes. And we're going to start doing those strikes on land, too. You know, the land is much easier. It's much easier. And we know the routes they take. We know everything about them. We know where they live. We know where the bad ones live. And we're going to start that very soon, too.
- [13:28]
Anthony Zurcher
I mean, it's not just speculation. The president, on the record, has said that land strikes are being planned, and not just potentially against Venezuela, but also in Colombia, too. He says, we know where the bad guys are, where they live. And. And he definitely indicated that that is the next phase. But is that the last phase, or is that just part of a larger campaign in order to target and topple the Maduro regime, which Maduro doesn't seem like he's going anywhere. And they seem to be digging in, and Maduro is asking the Russians and the Chinese for help. So the potential for this to escalate is very real. And I was just looking at some of the numbers of US Military hardware in the region. I mean, this is the Caribbean, where, you know, there's dozens usually of military personnel. There's 15,000American servicemen on boats stationed in Puerto Rico and in other bases right now. There's an aircraft carrier, there's an amphibious task force, there's a nuclear attack submarine, there's aircraft wings, there are soldiers on the ground. And this is a massive buildup, and it gives Donald Trump the potential to launch a comprehensive land, air and sea campaign, basically at a moment's notice. This is a buildup that is much more than just targeting a few boats. It has the potential to be something much, much bigger.
- [14:51]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah, we've even heard the Pope urging Trump not to take action in Venezuela. But, yeah, the question is, is it a threat to Maduro or is he serious about it? And I guess we will find out in the coming weeks.
- [15:03]
Justin Webb
Talking about threats, he wasn't terribly pleasant, was he, about people from Somalia? Let's hear a couple of the things that he said.
- [15:10]
Donald Trump
I don't want them in our country. I'll be honest with you. Somebody said, oh, that's not politically correct. I don't care. I don't want them in our country. Their country is no good for a reason. Their country stinks, and we don't want them in our country. I could say that about other countries, too. These are people that do nothing but complain. They complain, and from where they came from, they got nothing. We don't want them in our country. Let them go back to where they came from and fix it.
- [15:41]
Thank you very much.
- [15:42]
Sarah Rainsford
The Somali migrants are in the Trump's crosshairs because of a financial scandal that happened in Minnesota where there was a charity put together that was fraudulently billing the state government for meals for children during COVID 19. There was a trial, and that somebody was sentenced, I think, in August to about 28 years in prison. And there were a number of Somali immigrants all implicated in this fraudulent scheme which actually ended up costing the state about $300 million. So, I mean, you know, there is some significant criminality from a small number of Somali immigrants in Minnesota. But Donald Trump seems to have used this to target the entire population in the state, which I think Anthony is the largest Somali population outside Africa, is based in Minnesota around Minneapolis and St. Paul.
- [16:31]
Anthony Zurcher
Right. It's a large population, and most of them are hardworking immigrants who are trying to make ends meet working in factories, working in slaughterhouses.
- [16:43]
They're being painted with a very broad brush by Donald Trump and kind of a larger thing. This is the way Donald Trump views a lot of immigrants, that. That they aren't any good, that if they come from bad countries, then they don't have the potential to contribute to America just because the country they came from is bad. Which kind of undercuts the whole idea of this nation as a home for immigrants who are trying to make a better life for themselves and fleeing, leaving destitution and poverty and warfare.
- [17:15]
Justin Webb
And he has the ability to do that in particular, in a way that appeals to people who don't like Ilhan Omar. This congresswoman, who is of Somali descent and who is very outspoken member of the squad, the progressive left squad of female congresspeople. And there is this kind of sense that I think Donald Trump is tapping into that, yeah, come to America and be grateful for coming. And I think a lot of Americans, although they might not necessarily approve of the language and they certainly wouldn't suggest that all Somalis should be painted in this way. But there is this kind of sense, isn't there, that Ilaloma has tended over the years to play into, which is that if you do come from somewhere that is war torn and you're taken in by the United States, you ought to, you know, if not say that you're grateful every day, then at least be respectful of the country that you've come to and try to make the best of your time there. And as Anthony said, look, lots of Somalis do. And I've actually saw, I saw the election, the first election of the first Muslim congressman who was Keith Ellison, who's not a Somali himself, but very much was dependent on their votes when he was first elected to Congress. And I went and saw him with those communities and with those people, actually, exactly. The people kind of people that Anthony mentions, people who are very hardworking but very much wanted to be part of American life, were thrilled actually, that they had this congressman who was going to support them. And Keith Ellison eventually actually went to Somalia himself. That's how important it is, this link to these, to these people. He went to Somalia and visited the president and all the rest of it. There is a real link there. And tens of thousands of immigrants, particularly from Somalia, who feel themselves to be close knit and all of those things are kind of fine and would be fine with most Americans. It's just that sometimes when they are represented, whether it's by the criminals who've just been discovered doing this wrongdoing that Sarah was mentioning, or whether it's politically by Ilhan Omar, this Democratic congresswoman. There's just this sense, actually, I think it is fair to say that they are ripe to be targeted in this way because of the attitude that they seem to have towards the country that's let them in.
- [19:37]
Sarah Rainsford
And it's not just the language that Donald Trump uses describing an entire community as garbage. There are legal issues, implications for Somalis in America on this. So first of all, Somalia is one of the 19 countries on a list where just this week the White House has announced that they're pausing all immigration applications from. But for people already here, anybody who is living in the United States on The temporary Protected status program for Somalis in Minnesota. Donald Trump has announced on Truth Social that he is removing that status, which presumably means they will then be here illegally, because that would be the sole basis on which they're living in the United States. Now, that won't be everybody from the Somali community, but it may be a very significant number. And he's going to be sending immigration agents into Minneapolis specifically looking for Somalis who have either overstayed their visas or are already in possession of a deportation notice. Now, they don't go around to the addresses of people whom they know exactly who they are when they do this. They target people, pretty much anyone who they think looks like a Somali, then checks out whether or not what their immigration status is and whether or not they're due for deportation. And that's what the fear among the wider community. And the mayor of Minneapolis has been talking about this as well. Even if you are specifically targeting people who are in the country illegally, and that can have huge consequences for the legal population, who gets swept up in this? And I think sometimes when we talk about these immigration rates and say, oh, well, look, you know, there are a lot of people very happy for people who came into the country illegally to be deported from it. There's a collateral damage that happens to the wider community who gets swept up in all of this.
- [21:15]
Anthony Zurcher
Right. And I think we have to view this in the context of Minnesota in particular, and Tim Waltz, who's the governor of Minnesota, Democrat, who ran as vice president as a running mate for Kamala Harris in last year's presidential election. And he has gotten under Donald Trump's skin. And so he is targeted, Tim Waltz in particular, in a truth social post, he said Minnesota under Governor Waltz is a hub of fraudulent money laundering activity. And that's the announcement where he said that they were suspending the TPS as protected status for all Somalis. He talked about Tim Waltz again yesterday in the cabinet meeting, saying he was an awful governor and saying that he lost the debate with J.D. vance, a vice presidential debate. J.D. vance. So there's a lot of grudges that Donald Trump is settling here. So it's not just the fact that there's this investigation and conviction of Somali fraudsters, but also there's politics behind it in Minnesota as well.
- [22:16]
Justin Webb
Yeah, because the wider point, isn't it, or the wider allegation, we don't know if it's true or not. But the wider allegation is that one of the reasons why it took some time for all of this fraud to be uncovered was that people were either worried about being accused of being racist or actually within the Democratic Party, very aware that this is an enormously important community for them electorally and they didn't want to upset Somalis who might be community leaders. So there is that kind of undercurrent, isn't there? And I'm not suggesting that that is necessarily true, but it's interesting that there is that undercurrent to all of this, that the state that Tim Walsh is in charge of is somehow kind of behind the scenes, implicitly doing a deal with these people whereby the state goes easy on them and they vote Democrat, to put it really bluntly. And that kind of thing, if it is said by Donald Trump, would need to have some evidence behind it if it was to be believed more widely across the country. But there is this kind of, I mean, exactly as Anthony is saying, there's this sense that Tim Walsh himself and that the Democrats in Minnesota are politically vulnerable, if anyone can pin this on them.
- [23:28]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah. And then if you look at what Stephen Miller, who is, I mean, officially he's the deputy chief of staff to Donald Trump, but actually he's much more powerful than that would let you believe. And who is behind a lot of the immigration policy driving this administration. After the killing of a National Guard member in Washington last week, he wrote on social media, this is the great lie of mass migration. You're not just importing individuals, you are importing societies. No magic transformation occurs when failed states cross borders at scale. Migrants and their descendants recreate the conditions and terrors and of their broken homelands. So, I mean, that's him telling you exactly what he thinks, which is that, you know, it is never going to be safe essentially in America to allow people like this to immigrate.
- [24:15]
Anthony Zurcher
Yeah. They talk about undercurrents. I mean, that is the undercurrent to all of this. And I mean, I guess that's, they said the same thing about Irish immigrants, you know, 100 years ago that, you know, the broken homeland, they were just going to import the violence and the shiftlessness and laziness of Irish immigrants are going to be brought here and they'll never, they'll never be able to adapt. And as a grandchild of Irish immigrants, I would take great exception to that. In the same way that they were right, weren't they, Somali immigrants? Well, I'm shiftless and lazy, but they weren't, they were hard working immigrants who came over and made a name for themselves.
- [24:51]
Justin Webb
Yeah. And there was, there was a boat, wasn't there? What's the boat, Anthony? The famous boat that came from Cuba and contained within it some people who went on to do incredibly well, but a couple of murderers as well. And it was. It was a huge cause celebre. Decades.
- [25:05]
Anthony Zurcher
Right. The Mariel, the Muriel boat lift or whatever that was.
- [25:08]
Justin Webb
That's it. Yeah, yeah. And these people came from Cuba, and at the time, it wasn't easy to get into the US from Cuba. And there was a great controversy, as I remember, about what then happened to the people. Obviously, their sort of futures in America were tracked. And it was exactly as you say. Actually, some of them really did contribute to American society, but one or two of them absolutely did not. Indeed, I think did kill people. And it's that sort of sense, isn't it, that does America maintain in the era of Trump, that sort of effectively rather nonchalant view, which is that in aggregate, we will benefit enormously from immigration, even if some people who come here are very damaged by the places they come from or are coming with ill intent, etc. Or do we actually believe rather more the latter than the former, and we think we're doing ourselves more harm than good? And there's no question, is there, about which camp Trump is in?
- [26:05]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah.
- [26:06]
Anthony Zurcher
I mean, if you talk about, again, you know, Donald Trump's political views were kind of crystallized in the 70s and 80s. The Muriel boat lift was in the 1980s, the early 1980, and that was, in fact, an instance where Fidel Castro opened up the prisons and included some of these people in this mass evacuation from Cuba that ended up in Florida and other places. And so now Donald Trump is saying that Venezuela and other South American countries and all of these countries that he has been very derisive of, they're all doing exactly the same thing. And it goes back to what Donald Trump remembers from earlier in his adult life, and he is pushing that idea now for this new mass immigration that has come into the country.
- [26:53]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah. And where some presidents or politicians might have thought maybe they were being a little intemperate, describing immigrants from an entire nation as garbage. Not the White House. No, no. The press secretary afterwards said that that had been an epic moment that put an exclamation point on President Trump's ninth Cabinet meeting of his second term. So no shame whatsoever coming from Caroline Levitt, Anyway, about that particular outburst.
- [27:19]
Anthony Zurcher
Right. And that clip we heard, actually you could hear the Cabinet members applauding after Donald Trump said it. So I think, yeah, I think that this White House views this as politically beneficial. Moment. Although the funny thing was Caroline Leavitt in that statement wasn't even talking. It wasn't even responding to queries about the Somali garbage line. It was a query about whether Donald Trump was fully awake during the two hour period plus cabinet meeting. I don't know if you watched the video, Justin, or you, Sarah, and saw, but I mean, I sat there through the whole thing. I stayed awake through the whole thing. And it did look like Donald Trump. There were moments where he closed his eyes and kind of hunched over. And again, we've seen this in other Trump appearances in recent weeks, looking like he was trying to fight off a bit of a snooze.
- [28:08]
Sarah Rainsford
Nine different occasions people counted when either looked like he had actually closed his eyes or was struggling to keep them open. Now, that can be a familiar experience when you listen to some of these kind of events because the things they say we've heard again and again and again. And that's particularly true of Donald Trump. But he knows there has been some stuff in the papers. There's been some pushback from the White House recently about whether as the oldest person ever to have been elected president of the United States, whether he is still as sharp as he used to be and whether or not he's struggling to stay awake. So he actually addressed that himself at the top of the meeting.
- [28:41]
Donald Trump
This country is being destroyed by the border, but you always find something new, like is he in good health? Biden was great, but he's Trump in good health.
- [28:54]
I sit here, I do news, four news conferences a day. I ask questions from very intelligent lunatics. You people.
- [29:02]
They always get. I give the right answers. There's never a scandal, there's never a problem. I give you a answers that solve your little problems. You go back and you can't find anything. But you do. You do stories about Biden was in wonderful health. The guy didn't do a news conference for eight months. If I go one day, I had one day where I didn't do a news conference, there's something wrong with the president.
- [29:27]
You people are crazy. I'll let you know when there's something wrong. There will be someday that's going to happen to all of us. But right now I think I'm sharper than I was 25 years ago. But who the hell knows? I took it. Look, by the way, I took my physical. I got all A's, everything. But they said to me, would you like to take a cognitive test? I said, is it hard?
- [29:50]
Justin Webb
Et cetera. We had a question actually from Nigel In Bakshi, he says, why do the many photographic instances of Donald Trump asleep in important meetings not evoke the same level of journalistic disparagement that was applied to Joe Biden? Well, I would just say to Nigel steady, because actually there wasn't much journalistic disparagement of Joe Biden. In fact, there wasn't nearly enough, frankly, given the state that he was in towards the end of his presidency, according to insider accounts that have been published since. And we were regularly told by the White House and frankly by a lot of journalists that he was in absolutely fighting form, and he plainly wasn't. And you don't get that with Donald Trump to speak in defense of the guy for a minute. He was there. He answers questions, as he says. He does loads of press conferences. He is often very vigorous. I feel now I'm speaking passionately because I'm easily the oldest person in this particular Cabinet meeting of the Americas Cabinet. But I just. You feel, yes, it's interesting. And yes, as Trump himself sort of admitted, then one day this is potentially going to become more of a story. But it just seems to me that the idea that he is as cognitively impaired as Biden seemed to be towards the end of his presidency just isn't right yet.
- [31:08]
Anthony Zurcher
Obviously, we spoke a lot about Biden's health and his age over the course of a year and a half towards the end of his presidency in the campaign. And we had a very vivid example of exactly how bad it could be in that presidential debate. I mean, that was the final blow that sunk Joe Biden's reelection campaign. But, you know, I think people are looking at Donald Trump with that in mind, that we have to pay attention to these sorts of things and have to constantly question the administration's account. And you're right, Donald Trump is out there all the time, and he keeps a fairly busy schedule, at least international travel, although he has pared back dramatically his domestic travel to the point where he doesn't do rallies and he doesn't go around the country except to Mar a Lago much anymore. And so when we do see him in public during these Cabinet events, you know, it is worth looking and seeing if he's nodding off. And I thought it was kind of funny him talking about that cognitive test because he went on to talk about how incredibly hard it was and how we couldn't pass, you know, we journalists could not pass a cognitive test. And there were 30 questions and there was, you know, there's some sort of a massive hurdle to clear that he Cleared. When I think if it's similar to the other cognitive tests we've talked about and have been performed on him before, it's like six questions and ask you three things or four things and then ask you 15 minutes later if you remember it. I mean, maybe we should try. Maybe, Justin, as the oldest member of the cabinet here, maybe you should try and show us how difficult or easy.
- [32:40]
Justin Webb
It is profiling that is almost certainly illegal under various aspects of British employment law. Anthony, it might be possible your side of the pond, but we're not doing it. This, I can tell you that when.
- [32:51]
Sarah Rainsford
I tell you, Justin, I mean, I agree with you in terms of the difference between Donald Trump and Joe Biden on this because Anthony and I go on Donald Trump trips occasionally. Obviously Donald Trump goes on all of them. They are absolutely exhausting. I am wiped out when I get back from those things. There's hardly any sleep. Time zone changes. It is a crazy schedule when he's traveling internationally. And I'm amazed, frankly, and that you don't see him falling asleep more often because that's what you see me doing. I'm quite a bit younger than him.
- [33:22]
Justin Webb
Yeah, well, as we say it will happen. I mean, towards the end, you think it took, towards the end of the Reagan presidency, Anthony was. He took naps in the afternoon, didn't he? And was. Was famously, at one stage they even thought, didn't they, his senior staff of invoking the 25th Amendment and. And then decided not to after they had a rather good lunch with him. I seem to remember reading in some biography of. Of Reagan. I mean, it does happen towards the end of a second term presidency and obviously with Trump, because he's the oldest ever, it is more likely to happen, but it's not happening at the moment, really, is it?
- [33:56]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah. Do you remember we thought President Reagan was just an ancient fossil basically in the White House and that it was inconceivable that somebody that old could be tasked with running the world. And he was 77 when he finally left, 73 when he was reelected for the second time. Donald Trump was 79 when he was reelected for the second time. So, yeah, there is some significant difference when you look at what we used to say about Ronald Reagan and how people accept the presidents verging into their 80s now and again.
- [34:27]
Anthony Zurcher
It's worth watching. It's obviously something that's worth watching. And Donald Trump isn't traveling as much as he used to. He hasn't held any rallies. He mostly sticks to the White House and mar a Lago or to his New Jersey Bedminster golf course. There are those notable international travel that he has done and as you point out, it has been exhausting. But you know, watch his schedule and, and watch him in public. I mean, that's the thing. If he starts to to have fewer public appearances, if he starts to look more out of sorts during them, I think, you know, that will be an indication that something's up and that's something we have to watch for.
- [35:02]
Justin Webb
I gotta go and have my afternoon nap. That probably better be it, you know.
- [35:06]
Anthony Zurcher
That sounds lovely. Bye bye.
- [35:12]
Justin Webb
Thank you for listening to another episode. It is you, the Ameracaster that makes AmeriCast the community that it now is. If you like what you've heard, please do subscribe to this podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcast. We always want to hear your feedback as well. We look at every single bit of correspondence that we get so you can send us an email americastbc.com the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT discord server. The link to that is in the description. Till next time. Bye.
- [36:07]
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