← Americast
Americast
Donald Trump gets on the phone... with Sarah
00:24:45
The president talks to Americast’s Sarah Smith about Starmer, the King and Iran.
Loading summary
Transcript67 lines
- [00:00]
A
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
B
I'm Kai Wright.
- [00:07]
C
I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [00:11]
B
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.
- [00:18]
C
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [00:20]
B
Stateside with Kai and Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13.
- [00:25]
C
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:28]
D
Foreign.
- [00:35]
A
Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's
- [00:37]
D
Washington bureau and it's Anthony across the river in Arlington, Virginia. So, Sarah, have you had any interesting phone conversations today?
- [00:48]
A
Yeah, one or two. I mean, it's always a pleasure to speak to you on the phone, Anthony, obviously, but I made an outgoing call to one Donald John Trump, who picked up the phone. Good morning, Mr. President, it's Sarah Smith from the BBC here.
- [01:06]
D
He picked up the phone. So was this a planned conversation? Did you get his phone number? How did this happen? Give me the details.
- [01:12]
A
So Donald Trump's phone number is. Well, I was going to say it's a very well kept secret in Washington. That's not true. Lots of journalists have it and have taken to calling him up in the White House, but it's a carefully guarded secret among those who have it, of course. But yeah, I've had it for a few days and we decided this morning to give it a go. So actually I had to phone him four or five times and it was going to voicemail and then finally the last time, about 4 or 5.
- [01:37]
D
Voicemail.
- [01:39]
A
Yes, but it's not him, it's just like a recorded, you know, it's like the standard recorded message saying, you know,
- [01:45]
D
this caller, Donald Trump, I can't come to the phone.
- [01:48]
A
Yeah, please leave a message. No, unfortunately not. So, of course it's not really clear that you've got the right number when you just get this standard recorded message.
- [01:57]
D
So he answered the phone, you told him you were from the BBC, but he didn't react to that. No snide remarks about the BBC.
- [02:05]
A
A bit later on he did say the BBC needs to be careful and he repeated that he has an issue with a Panorama documentary which, you know, as many people know, he is suing the BBC over in court at the moment. And so he kind of made a glancing reference to that and said, you know, that he normally likes the BBC but he was angry about that and that we need to be careful if we want to maintain our global Reputation. But it's just probably a warning, you know, about, you know, don't take his words out of context, don't put words in his mouth when we're reporting about what he had to say on the phone call. But other than that, no, he seemed perfectly happy to chat.
- [02:41]
D
Right? Right. No, no. Fake news. Hang up the phone. So, I mean, you got through the gate, you got into a conversation with him. Had you planned out ahead of time? I mean, you must have planned out exactly what you were going to do and in what order, in order to try to not. Not scare him off, but to get it deeper into a conversation.
- [02:59]
A
Well, absolutely. But I have to say I know that a lot of people who have managed to get him on the phone get a chance to ask him one question and he'll toss off an answer and then, you know, and then hang up. So if you see it reported that somebody had a brief phone call with Donald Trump, that usually means, you know, it lasted seconds, they had one answer. So spent quite a lot of time trying to work out what the first question ought to be. So that one that he would like and that he would talk about, but also that might give us some kind of newsline, because it might be just one shot. And I was so worried about it being an incredibly brief call that when he seemed happy to stay on the phone for, I mean, close to five minutes, I was starting to think, oh, I wonder what else I could possibly ask about, because I was so worried about it being brief. I hadn't really made a brilliant plan for it going on for a long time.
- [03:53]
D
You wanted to hook him. You wanted to find a question that would pull him in. What did you go with?
- [03:58]
A
So I knew that mentioning the King and the royal visit that's coming up in Washington next week would be something that he would want to talk about. We know how much he loves the British royal family and how excited he must be that the King and the Queen are going to be at the White House, that he's going to be hosting a state banquet. Right. So that's something that would probably, you know, put him in a good mood, maybe mean that he would want to talk to us. And also, you know, it's a reason for him to talk to the BBC, isn't it, that he's got the. The British King coming over to visit him. But how do you ask a question that you're going to get a substantial answer to more than just, you know, are you excited that the King's coming to the White House? He's just going to say, yeah, he's very excited, he can't wait. And that's not exactly big news. So I specifically said, look, I'm sure you're looking forward to hosting the King and the Queen at the White House next week. At a time when relations with the United Kingdom are particularly difficult, do you think that King Charles can help repair that relationship? So that was a way of, you know, getting into the slightly more substantial problems that there are between in the special relationship that way. He's been really critical of Keir Starmer recently, but leading off with a sort of gentle thing about talking about, you know, the King being at the White House. And, you know, it worked reasonably well in that he be stayed on the phone. He was prepared to start talking to me about it and said that he's really looking forward to the King coming, that he's a fantastic man. And in terms of can King Charles help repair the relationship? He said, absolutely. The answer is yes. I know him very well, I've known him for years. He's a great man and he thinks, absolutely, it'll be very positive.
- [05:34]
D
He reacted well to the King. Did he have any harsh words about the UK from there? Did he acknowledge that the tensions were strained?
- [05:43]
A
Yeah. So the next thing I said was that, you probably know Keir Starmer's in a lot of trouble in the United Kingdom. Do you think it's time he stood down as Prime Minister? Because obviously, you know, in the UK there are a lot of calls for Keir Starmer to resign, and I wondered if Donald Trump would pick up on that, given that, you know, he has said how unhappy he is about Keir Starmer recently. Now, he didn't leap on that and say, yes, yes, yes, it's time for him to go, or anything. Instead, he returns to some topics that he's pretty familiar with. I think we're well aware that Donald Trump is not happy about some of the wind turbines in the North Sea, particularly the ones that are near his golf course in Aberdeenshire. So that was when he started on saying that. Yeah, that more importantly than whether or not he thinks Keir Starmer should stand down. He's got to get rid of those windmills, he's got to start drilling in the beautiful North Sea. He said, it's ridiculous that there's all that oil under the sea and yet the UK is continuing to buy oil from Norway and that they need to do more drilling there. And so I was trying to get in there. I have to say now, it sounds like a Weird thing. You know, I wanted to stop the President talking to me, but we know very well his views about wind turbines and oil in the North Sea. So I interrupted him a bit to say, look, you said on Truth Social the other day that Keir Starmer had plenty of time to recover. And so I wanted to ask him what he meant by that, because it was a slightly weird post where he said that Keir Summer had made a big mistake by appointing Peter Mandelson to be the Washington ambassador, but he still had time to recover. And so I asked him, you know, did you mean that he can recover his relationship with you? And he said, well, if he opened up the North Sea and if his immigration policies were stronger, he could recover, but that if he doesn't do that, if he doesn't start running the UK in the way that Donald Trump thinks he should, then I don't think he has a chance. So he wasn't leaping on the opportunity to stick the button to Keir Starmer, but that's quite a strong line. I don't think he has a chance. Now, if we were a, you know, news site that was less reputable and responsible than the BBC, we would be flashing a headline that just said, donald Trump tells the BBC I don't think Keir Starmer has a chance. And that would make it sound as though, you know, he thinks that the Prime Minister is going to get kicked out of number 10 any minute now. And that would be not an entirely fair assessment of what he was saying. He was really criticizing Sir Keir's energy and immigration policies rather than saying, you know, the man's only got minutes left of his premiership.
- [08:28]
D
Right. And interesting that he went after energy and immigration and not the Iran war and British support for it. Did that come up? Did you press him on that as well?
- [08:38]
A
Yeah. So the next thing I did was say, look, I know you're very disappointed that he didn't join the war in Iran. What could he do to win your trust back? And so this is so Trumpy. He said, you've no idea how many people from the UK have sent us letters, calls, everything else, including high officials. I don't know who it could mean saying how incredibly bad a decision that was, because we've always been there for them, but NATO, you know, we've always been there for them, and people were very surprised they didn't make even a minimal effort, effort to help out with the war on Iran. Now, I literally do not know what high officials, he's saying, have written and called the White House to say they're disappointed in Keir Starmer. He may mean opposition politicians or possibly retired officials, something like that. He may well have had communications from some opposition politicians saying, if we were in office, we would have done things differently, Mr. President. But. So, yeah, he was, you know, he was keen to lay out just how he feels that he was let down by all of his NATO allies, but he always seems to be particularly critical of the UK when it comes to that. So I don't know why he's so disappointed in Zakir Starr. Maybe because they did have such a warm and close friendship previously that seems to have been really ruptured by this row over Iran.
- [09:53]
D
Right. And so he. Did he bring up Lord Mendelssohn or did you, in your question? Because that's kind of interesting, that.
- [10:00]
A
Yeah, so I didn't specifically reference Lord Mandelson. I referenced that social media post that he'd put out a couple of days ago, saying that Keir Starmer had plenty of time to recover. I didn't read out the bit of it where he had written about Lord Mandelson. So, in fact, we didn't get into discussing him. I mean, that would have been quite interesting, probably, to get into, because Donald Trump met Peter Mandelson several times when he was the US ambassador, and obviously it's his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein that has caused all of the problems. And Donald Trump had his own relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, but, yeah, we didn't go down that track. I carried on just asking him about NATO allies and the war in Iran and why he felt he needed help from the UK and others.
- [10:43]
D
Did he give anything more interesting about the Iran war and about some of the rhetoric he's used and where the state of negotiations are?
- [10:52]
A
Well, yeah, because this is something I've been intrigued by myself. Sometimes we ask pro forma questions in interviews, don't we, that we know exactly what the answer is going to be, but we just need to get it on the record. And sometimes you've got a genuine query, something that you want to find out. And I have been wondering why he gets so exercised about the fact that nobody else joined the Iran war, given how much time he spends telling us how brilliantly it's gone, what huge victory they've already achieved in Iran, boasting about the military success. So I said to him, look, given how proud you are of what the armed forces from the US and Israel have achieved in Iran, why did you need allies like the UK to get involved? And of course, he said, oh, I didn't need them at all. Didn't need them at all. But still, they should have been there. We've wiped out Iran's military. He said, they've gone, the Navy's gone, the Air Force is gone, their leaders are gone. I didn't need anybody. So I said, so why then did you want them involved? And he said, because I wanted to see whether or not they would get involved. He said it was more of a test, that these countries ought to have helped him and the US would have been there for them. They should have been there for America. It was a bit of a test and clearly a test that he thinks that the UK and others failed. Right.
- [12:08]
D
I mean, that is kind of the contradiction, Right, that he keeps bringing up. We didn't need them, but we wanted them because they should have been there. And so he didn't really cover too much new ground there, though it's interesting for him to frame it as a test and a test, clearly that they failed. Was there any other Iran conversation? Did he cover anything about his rhetoric or where the war is going now?
- [12:36]
A
Yeah, he made some rather optimistic, would be a generous term, bombastic claims about how well it's going. I actually asked him sort of a slightly tangential question. I'm sure everybody remembers that slightly shocking truth social post that he put out saying that a whole civilization was going to die tonight in Iran, just before he agreed to the first ceasefire. And I said to him, look, you know, people were shocked when you said that. Was that a threat to use nuclear weapons in Iran? Because people were speculating about that at the time. I'm sure you remember, Anthony, you know, what would it take to kill an entire civilization if that's the threat that you're making? And I wondered if it was meant to be an implied threat that he could use nuclear weapons. But he dodged completely away from that, didn't answer that directly. He just said, the other side is dying to make a deal. I'm not sure that's strictly true at the moment, but that's what he said. The other side's dying to make a deal. So whatever I'm saying or whatever I'm doing, it seems to be working very well. That is, if I make these shocking threats on social media, you know, that's all part of the strategy. And he believes it seems to be working. But that was the point. I'd obviously pushed it too far because he finished that off by going, thank you very much. And I sort of dived in, trying to just get that one last question in as we're always trying to do, aren't we, Anthony? But, you know, are there any circumstances in which you would consider. Consider using nuclear weapons? But he'd gone by then. Would you ever consider using nuclear weapons? And he's gone.
- [14:12]
D
No. Talk to you later. Catch you. Catch you at the White House Correspondent's Dinner, anything like that.
- [14:18]
A
Well, we'd have had to disappoint him, wouldn't I say? Right, I'm sorry, neither me nor Anthony Zircher are going to be there. We are flying over to London to take part in Cast Festival. Maybe he wants a link for that. That would be good.
- [14:31]
D
Maybe you should have. That was what you missed out on. You could have plugged Casper to the President. But do you think walking away from this, do you think you got anything new out of him? Do you think you got any kind of a new insight from, from what about a five minute conversation, would you say?
- [14:45]
A
Yeah, so that's an interesting question, isn't it? I mean, I sort of feel obligated to say yes, because, you know, this is the BBC talking directly to President Trump and of course we're making news. But I don't know, did, did we learn a huge amount more. He' he's boasting about how well he's done in Iran. He thinks it's all going fantastically well. He's not happy with the UK and NATO and he's very, very keen on King Charles and excited to have him at the White House. No, I don't think any of that is shocking or even that surprising to us. It's good to have it from his own lips, though. It's good for him to confirm the things that we believe about him because you will not believe what happened after that, Anthony. It's the strangest thing. So I've got him saved in my phone just as djt. Right, his initials. So he's hung up and we, we recorded the call. We're not allowed to play the audio, but we recorded it so that we could get an accurate transcript and make sure that we were quoting him correctly. Right. So I'm sitting with a couple of colleagues and going through the transcript and the phone rings and it says on the screen, DJ T. It's like he's falling back. What? So I picked it up, like, what on earth is this? And he's not there, but I can hear Fox News playing in the background. And he butt dial in. It's live. Yeah, he like he butt dialed me as he was clearly sitting watching the television. And I'M shouting into the phone, Mr. President, are you there? Mr. President? Hello, Mr. President. And you know, I don't know where he had the phone, but he obviously couldn't hear me and we could hear Fox News playing away. And eventually I thought, well, he said, you know, he's obviously not going to speak to me. What should we do? I mean, there's a chance we were about to overhear some kind of amazing Oval Office conversation. We thought, well, actually probably to be on the safe side, we better hang up. So, yeah, I hung up on the President.
- [16:39]
D
That is incredible. I think that actually may be better than the conversation itself, but it is fascinating. And you did get some news out of it, I think. I mean, the fact that he still thinks that the us, UK relationship can be repaired, that this visit by the King is going to accomplish exactly what I think the Brits may want it to, which is to use the power of the monarchy to kind of smooth over strained relations. I think I do find that, that interesting. And yeah, I mean, just what a, what a rush to be kind of in the spot there on the phone and knowing that at any minute he could hang up on you. So you have to find a way to keeping it going.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah. So that's, it's quite stressful to be listening to what he's saying and at the same computing. Okay, is that news? Is that a good line? If I push him further on that, are we likely to get something that we can use, you know, as a great headline or is it going to irritate him to the point where he'll just hang up? Because this is the problem with these calls. Anthony, I'm sure you've thought about this as well. It's all very well, journalists phoning him up and he's prepared to take their call and speak to them directly. Well, that's fantastic in terms of access of, you know, speaking to the most powerful man in the world. But he's in control. Even though we phoned him, he can hang up anytime he likes. So it's not like a pre prepared interview where he's sat in a television studio or speaking to a newspaper and you can keep pushing him on questions on difficult things. You know, ask him why he thinks he's so incredibly optimistic about the war in Iran. If you look at the facts on the ground, for instance, there's not proper accountability when he can hang up at any point he wants without penalty. So I think, you know, we need to be a little bit careful about this whole Idea that we can just phone up the President anytime we like and get exclusive interview, even if he's talking to several journalists all at the same time on the same day. Because I think he's retaining more control than it looks like. And we shouldn't necessarily fall into a pattern where a sort of, you know, one or two minute phone call is in lieu of a proper interview or a proper press briefing or something where he can be pushed harder on some of these issues.
- [18:46]
D
Right, and why can't we use the audio? Is that BBC policy or is that something the White House has told everyone before?
- [18:53]
A
He has told other broadcasters who said, specifically, you know, can, can, can we broadcast the contents of this call? He said, no, you can quote him, but you can run it. And that's kind of generally the way it's been anyway, because it's not. In the last few weeks, he's been taking more calls from journalists, but ever since he came into office, he has spoken to some of the big American network anchors and things on the phone, hasn't he? And we sometimes see them popping up on television saying, I've just got off the phone with the President and here's what he told me. They've never run the audio either. So that's obviously kind of understood between the broadcasters and the White House. But it was made very, very clear the other day when one of our broadcast colleagues from Sky News said to him, can I. Can I broadcast the audio? And he firmly said no. So I didn't think there was going to be any different answer for the BBC if I asked him today.
- [19:40]
D
Right. And again, it's a matter of control. Right. They don't want him to be able to pick up the phone and. And then have his words played out. At least it gives us certain amount of deniability, a certain amount of distance from what he's saying and the public.
- [19:55]
A
Yeah. How do you think the communications team and the press office are feeling about this, Anthony? Because they obviously haven't done much to stop this happening. I mean, they could just turn off the particular phone that we all have the number of. I know he's got more than one mobile phone, so people would still be able to communicate with him. He doesn't have to pick this up. Do you think they feel out of control because they don't know what he's saying to journalists until they see it on social media or in somebody's copy flashing on the wires? Or do you think that they believe that this is actually really quite an effective way of him sending out his message.
- [20:31]
D
I can't imagine that they like it, but I think they must be used to it at this point. Donald Trump has been difficult to control by any kind of a press team. And we heard in the first Trump administration how frustrated the press people were, the more kind of traditional press people like Sean Spicer and the like, with trying to get the president's message out and trying to formulate the message when he would just come and come up and talk to reporters anywhere at any time and totally undercut what they were doing. I think probably this new team, Caroline, and leave it and the rest of them, they know that's the way this game is played. And if Donald Trump wants to talk to the media, whenever he wants to talk to the media, whether it's in a gaggle or coming back on Air Force One or holding a press conference or picking up the phone, I think they know that that is the nature of the beast.
- [21:20]
A
Yeah, I think that's probably right. Because the other thing, as I'm sure you've experienced as well, Anthony, that I find quite intriguing, is that when you do try and speak to any of the communications team behind the scenes, just for a little bit of an off the record steer, as to what's likely to happen later that day or whether the White House thinks something's going well or badly, they don't know themselves. They will literally say, you'll find out when we do. If you post it on Truth Social. So, yeah, it's a unique communication strategy.
- [21:48]
D
And then there's the concern about the security issues. Right? I mean, the fact that, and no offense, Sarah, that you could get ahold of the president's phone number and other journalists, and maybe even some not quite as respected and prominent as you can get a hold of his phone number, you would think that intelligence agencies, foreign governments, I mean, what's to stop, you know, a Chinese spy from tracking this down somehow and posing as a journalist having a conversation with the president? I mean, it just seems like, like the kind of thing that there's a reason why no presidents before this have ever done anything like this.
- [22:26]
A
I know, I don't. Did anybody, any of the others, even have their own mobile phone that they were allowed to use like this? I think, you know, the likes of Joe Biden or Barack Obama was considered a security risk for to even have a phone, let alone a phone that they can call you back on with a. But let you hear what you could
- [22:44]
D
have had a front row seat to something very sensitive. The way that the Atlantic editor Got pulled into the signal chat during attacks on Yemen. I mean, it's this. I guess this isn't the first glaring security hole in this White House, but it still is just kind of mind boggling that there is that ability for you to pick up the phone and call the President of the United States and have a conversation with him. The same way I might call my mom someday.
- [23:09]
A
Yes, yes, exactly. And because even then it goes to voicemail a few times before you can get hold of your mom, doesn't it?
- [23:15]
D
Exactly. All right, Sarah, so you called the president once. Are you already planning the next time and the next reason for dialing him up and chatting?
- [23:24]
A
Oh, that is a really good question. I mean, yes, we should probably think about that, shouldn't we? Yeah, I wonder if we maybe need something else to happen in the UK US Relationship or reach a point where there is a particular question that we think that we want or need an answer to. So, I mean, it could be something will happen during the royal visit next week that would make it worthwhile. And we've got to watch quite carefully as well, when the right moment would be. I was checking Truth Social to see if he was posting, which he was a bit, and not only about Iran. So that gave you a sense that he was maybe feeling, you know, a little bit chatty. We see his schedule in advance, Anthony. As you know, we get that every morning. And I could see that he didn't have any particular meetings planned earlier in the morning. So you need to pick your moment like that. But I think, yeah, maybe some point next week if we can see that he's got a block of time free and he appears to be, yeah. In a communicative mood.
- [24:24]
D
Maybe we should try again, catch him during executive time. Right. I mean, we'll have to see. Yeah, you're going to have to see when. When the next opportunity strikes because the reporters have called multiple times. So now that you got the line and you know he won't immediately hang up on you, stay tuned to see when Donald Trump will have his next conversation with you, Sarah. And if our listeners want to offer any suggestions on questions you can ask, why don't they write in? They know how to get ahold of us.
- [24:51]
A
That's a brilliant idea. Yes. Let's crowdsource the questions for the next call. All right.
- [24:56]
D
Well, this has been fascinating, Sarah, what a treat. And yeah, guard that cell phone carefully. You don't want it to get in the wrong hands.
- [25:03]
A
Yes. I should probably change what the number is stored under, shouldn't I. Alright, well,
- [25:09]
D
Sarah, I'm going to see you in London in just a couple of days. But until then, bye, y'. All. Bye.
- [25:13]
C
Bye. Feel your best and amplify your everyday look with Thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com shine26 for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C-A-U-S-E M E T I C S.com shine26 I'm Kai Wright. I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [25:41]
B
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.
- [25:48]
C
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [25:50]
B
Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13.
- [25:55]
C
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast.
- [26:09]
B
I'm Kai Wright.
- [26:10]
C
I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [26:14]
B
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.
- [26:21]
C
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [26:23]
B
Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13.
- [26:28]
C
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.