Sarah (2:23)

Mr. President.

Chris Counahan (2:24)

In the name of our God, have.

Justin (2:26)

Mercy upon the people.

Chris Counahan (2:27)

We're scared now.

Sarah (2:29)

Are you supportive of these onesies?

Chris Counahan (2:31)

I'm supportive of vaccines.

Sarah (2:32)

What is happening?

Sarah (2:33)

Like, this is not America. This is a terrible nightmare.

Sarah (2:37)

This is what victory feels like. Yeah, hello, it's Sarah in the BBC's Washington bureau.

Justin (2:53)

And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England.

Sarah (2:57)

And Justin, we should explain a little bit more of the background to this terrible story of what happened to Irina Zyrutska at the end of last month. She is a young Ukrainian refugee, 22 years old, who had moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, traveling alone on a Metro train. When. And we've seen footage of this, she is attacked violently from behind by someone alleged to be De Carlos Brown, who violently stabs her in the neck. And all of this is captured on video. And so, unsurprisingly, this has really, really shocked people, the horrific nature of this murder. But there is huge controversy that hasn't been that widely reported in some media outlets as well. That's one big aspect of this story.

Justin (3:43)

Yeah. And before we get to that aspect and the various other kind of political aspects of it, it's worth dwelling for a moment on the fact of the video, because the video is horrific, exactly as you suggest. But also, there are now still images that are being shared from it of this poor woman. She's only 23. She looks, as you would expect, shocked, terrified. She bleeds to death, basically. And there are people around her in the carriage who do very little, at least while the attacker is there. And the horror of it, I mean, before we go on and talk about all the rest of it, the horror of it is what has now kind of propelled it, hasn't it, into America's consciousness, into the consciousness of politicians, but also into the consciousness of ordinary Americans who are just looking on and even people who haven't seen the video. And we should say right at the start that Irania's family don't want people to watch the video. They actually asked for people not to share it. They issued a statement. They said they were heartbroken beyond words. Irina, they said, came here, here being in the United States to find peace and safety. And instead, her life was stolen from her in the most horrific way. No family should have to go through this. So they do not want her to become a huge political issue. They do not want any of this, obviously, to happen. But the fact is that it is happening. And this discussion is, I think, probably only at the early stages.

Sarah (5:17)

Yeah. And it's been propelled front and center by the fact that the White House are talking about it. Here's the press secretary, Carolyn Levitt, who spoke about it during Tuesday's press briefing. And we're going to play you an extended chunk of what she had to say.

Sarah (5:31)

Here are the facts that many outlets have shamefully and intentionally failed to report until President Trump drew attention to it on August 22, Irina Zarutska was stabbed to death on the rail system in Charlotte, North Carolina, by a savage career criminal. This is a public transportation system that many in the area use every single day to go to school and work. Irina was on the train that night, traveling home from her job at a pizzeria, still in uniform from her shift. This beautiful, innocent, 23 year old young woman was a Ukrainian refugee who had recently fled her country for a chance at a safer life and a promising new beginning here in the United States of America. But tragically, a public transportation system in a major American city was more dangerous than the active war zone that she left. Surveillance video of the killing was finally released to the public this past Friday.

Sarah (6:27)

And one of the things that Caroline Levitt and the White House generally have been making a big deal about is the lack of coverage that this crime has received in outlaw outlets like the New York Times, the Washington Post, the major TV outlets here like abc, NBC. And to an extent, they're right about that. It hasn't been widely covered. And if you read what they would classify as the liberal press, a lot of people still think is, you know, pretty broadly in the middle mainstream press. You might not know about this, you might have seen it on your social media channels, but you won't have seen it on the front page of some of the newspapers that take themselves the most seriously in this country. And that is just feeding, as I'm sure you can imagine, Justin, politicization of this and the idea that liberals, that Democrats want to cover up crime, particularly when it is committed by black suspects on white victims.

Justin (7:21)

Yeah, and the New York Times, I mean, I think it is possible, isn't it, to question why some of the coverage didn't happen, but at the same time, not to align yourself necessarily with what the White House is claiming and indeed what some on America's right, particularly the, the far right, are claiming, that this is a kind of, you know, reverse racism, that this is being covered simply because, or not being covered simply because the suspect seems to be black. I think you can put all that to one side and say, hang on a second. It is also, of course, the backstory of this woman, the fact that she'd come to the United States from a war zone to seek a better life. That also makes it more newsworthy. And I think it is reasonable for people to say, is there something that has held mainstream news outlets back from wanting to cover this? Because the narrative in this case on two fronts seems not to fit theirs. And the one front is the racial One where people are very keen, certainly in the wake of George Floyd, they're very keen to see other cases where there is racism and there's racism directed against black people, and there is certainly evidence of that. But are they less keen to see the opposite, as it were? And the other is just the business of random disorder in public places, which we talked about, haven't we, Sarah, on the podcast before? And it's a fact, isn't it, that actually violent crime in Charlotte, in the city where this poor woman was killed, has gone down really markedly in the last year. But still there is this sense, if you are traveling on that train today, you're gonna feel nervous, aren't you? And that, again, is a kind of narrative, it seems to me that some of the mainstream media don't want to get involved in because it seems to be helping Donald Trump.

Sarah (9:16)

And you'll remember this, Justin, it's long been a feature of criticism of the media in America that they do focus on the murder of particularly young, white, blonde women, often to the exclusion of stories about murders of other people, largely black and brown people. And that's, you know, that's a narrative that's gone on for decade, decades now. I've no idea whether that's one of the reasons why a lot of outlets didn't cover this story. There's also an argument that murders are not that common in these cities, that one single death wouldn't necessarily propel it onto the front pages the way it might in the United Kingdom or other European countries. Now, that is terrifying. It's frightening. That it is true, as you say, Justin, that violent crime has been going down in Charlotte as it has in many of the big cities in America, and yet there are still so many murders every week in these cities that they barely make the headlines. I mean, that's the disconnect that it's quite difficult to get your head around sometimes, that violent crime's on the way down and there is still so much of it in these American cities. Now, we had a graphic demonstration last night, Justin, of the way in which in one month, Donald Trump says he has restored safety, protection, law and order to the streets of Washington, D.C. when he went out for dinner, amazingly, actually, it's the first time he's been to a restaurant, not just in this term, but any time when he's been president other than to his own hotel. And he has been saying the whole time that the National Guard have been on the streets of D.C. that people have been too terrified to go out to restaurants but that suddenly, within a month, a whole bunch of them have sprung up and everybody's going out for dinner again. And it's all thanks to him. So to prove this, he took his large motorcade out of the White House, drove one whole block to Joe's Prime Steak and Stone Crab House, which is practically next door to the White House, went in, had dinner with a whole bunch of people from his administration, spoke to reporters on the way in and said, isn't it great that people can go out for dinner again in Washington? I mean, the idea that surrounded by the Secret Service and a motorcade of about 20 vehicles and driving one block proves that anything is between. Particularly safer is. Is obviously laughable. But this is the extent to which you can see him and he really believes that he can tell people he has changed the atmosphere on the streets in. In one short month.

Chris Counahan (11:41)

This city. Here I am standing out in the.

Sarah (11:43)

Middle of the street.

Chris Counahan (11:44)

I wouldn't have done this three months ago, four months ago. I certainly wouldn't have done it a year ago. This was one of the most unsafe cities in the country. Now it's as safe as there is in the country. So we're here with cabinet members having dinner, and everybody should go out. The restaurants now are booming. People are walking. Thank you.

Justin (12:04)

Okay, that's the performative side. If we go back to Charlotte and what has happened there and to the discussions around this particular alleged attacker, and we're saying that he's an alleged attacker. There is film, there is video, as we've said. But he hasn't yet been convicted of a crime. So it's right that we. We treat him in that way, and that's why we are. But, you know, the complexity of how you deal with him, how he was dealt with, but also with people like him is also, of course, a huge part of a very, very important lively debate, and one that isn't performative because it actually has to deal with real practical issues.

Sarah (12:47)

So let's look at what happened with this suspect to Carlos Brown. Now, he has been jailed several times. He has been convicted of other viol. Violent offenses, including an assault against his own sister. I mean, this is a man with a dark criminal history. And he had been arrested earlier this year, and he wasn't even released on cashless bail, where you can be released on bail without putting any money down, which is something the Republicans are going after at the moment. It wasn't even that he was released on a written promise to return to court when his case came up. That was how the judge allowed him to go and why he was free walking the streets, why he was free and able to get on this Metro train and allegedly commit this murder. Now that looks absolutely awful, doesn't it? That looks like it is just the worst of Democrats taking the side of criminals over the law abiding public. Until you look at what it was that he was arrested for. He had been abusing the 911 like the 999 system by repeatedly calling because he thought that someone else had control of his bodily functions. Are we seriously saying that he should have been kept in jail on remand waiting trial for calling 911 too often? I mean, this is what happens when you get into the details of it. It's always a bit more complicated, isn't it?

Justin (14:07)

And on the race side of it, where does this go now? Because, I mean, I've noticed you can see there are some on the far right who are openly racist and will unquestionably use it well.

Sarah (14:20)

And it means that whenever somebody says, look, the criminal justice system is not being tough enough, whether on the sentencing of people or keeping people off the streets while they're awaiting tr, particularly if they have previous offenses, it's very, very easy to say, well, that is happening because Democrats or liberal leaning judges or magistrates are being too sympathetic towards African American offenders. And so whether or not that is the case, or whether it's because judges are simply following the law, they stand accused of being overly liberal. And of course it is a fact that most of the defendants who come up against them accused of these kind of crimes will be people of color. That's just how the statistics break in this country. And then you end up with a situation with this case we've got where Charlotte's Democratic mayor, Vi Lyles ends up having to release a statement where she's acknowledging the Republican criticism over the fact that too many people are being released after they have been arrested. She said, over the past several weeks, our community has worked to understand this. What we know was a tragic failure by the courts and magistrates. Our police officers arrest people only to have them quickly released, which undermines our ability to protect our community and ensure safety. So he's Democrats having to say, yes, look, there is something in what you're saying and of course, you know, getting it right in the criminal justice system is a very, very difficult thing. But what's equally difficult, if not impossible, is for, I think, Democrats to defend themselves in cases like this against the charges of somehow having either been too lenient or created A culture of leniency that allows this sort of violence to occur.

Justin (16:00)

Yeah. Does it have an effect, you think, in North Carolina? Because, I mean, there's a really important Senate race there isn't there fall, which will, you know, potentially have a big impact on the makeup of the Senate. I mean, in theory, the Democrats could even win back control of the Senate. I don't think that's terribly likely, is it? But, I mean, they could win the North Carolina seat. It's going to be an open seat. They got Roy Cooper, the governor, very popular governor, Democratic governor of what is fundamentally, I suppose we were both there, weren't we, during the election? I mean, it's kind of a Republican. It is still a Republican state. There were some, some hopes in the Democrats that they were going to flip it, but they didn't manage to. Trump won, but they are hoping that they can win the seat this time around, the Senate seat. I just wonder whether the row about what the mayor initially said, where she seemed to be more worried about the attacker than she was about the victim and that kind of wider acknowledgment that, as you say, she's now being sort of forced into and people talking about diversity, equity and inclusion policies. Was there a task force that allowed him to be released? You know, Fox News telling people he's, he's. He. This woman lost her life because of dei. You know, if those things become electorally significant in North Carolina over the next year, Roy Cooper, who I think is ahead in the polls, I think is likely at the moment to win. I just wonder whether he might not.

Sarah (17:38)

Well, everything you said, Justin, is extremely pertinent to this race and I suspect no coincidence as to why we're talking about this case as well. So Roy Cooper, the Democratic Senate candidate, previous governor, when he was governor of North Carolina, set up this task force looking at sort of racial equity in criminal justice.

Justin (17:56)

Oh, gosh, I didn't realise that it's his task force, is it?

Sarah (17:59)

It is.

Justin (17:59)

Oh, goodness.

Sarah (18:00)

And so that's why the story that you're being told on Fox News and elsewhere is that it was, yes, that his task force led directly to the release of De Carlos Brown, which led directly to the murder of this woman. Now, in fact, he was released before the task force results were published. He probably wouldn't have been released anyway under what the guidelines that they had come up with. But it's a nice easy story to tell, to say that, look, North Carolina descended into this criminal hellhole under Roy Cooper's governorship. Don't elect him to the Senate, elect a Republican who will, you know, be tough on crime and take care of you. And Donald Trump's already given a great deal of personal backing to the Republican candidate there. This is a seat they very, very much want to win in one of those rare swing states, one of the few that we have left in America. So, yeah, yeah, this is something that goes to the absolute heart of it. I'm trying to remember, Justin, and I'm sure you will, the famous advert that sunk Michael Dukakis, Willie Horton. Yes. How similar was that case? Can you remember the details and explain to our Americans what was in the advert?

Justin (19:07)

Yeah. Okay, so it's back in prehistory. Michael Dukakis running against George H.W. bush. And George H.W. bush had some pretty rough house people working for him, although George H.W. bush himself, this is George W. Bush's dad, was a genial kind of character, but he had some tough people on his side. And they made this massive deal of someone who had been released, maybe released early, but anyway, released while Dukakis was a governor. His name was Willie Horton. And he went on to commit a serious crime. I can't remember what the crime was, but he committed a serious crime. And it just hung around Dukakis neck. And it's a really interesting one now. I mean, horrific in a way. You just feel so sorry for, obviously for her, but my goodness, for her family as well. But you do wonder whether this woman is now going to become a kind of poster child for the election next year and is going to be used by the Republicans in order to try to exactly, as you say, to win the crucial, the absolutely crucial, potentially seat of, of North Carolina, but also, of course, more widely in the midterms that are going to be fought right throughout the country.

Sarah (20:29)

Because let's not forget one of the reasons why we are so focused on the idea of crime, partly because the White House has made it their banner issue. And as we know, as you mentioned earlier, sending the National Guard onto the troops of Washington, D.C. sounds as though he's decided not to try and send the National Guard into Chicago, which would have had a very different legal basis. And that's something we can get into more detail about another time. But basically, yeah, the, the president can send troops into D.C. because it's not a full state. It's an entirely different matter to try and send them into Illinois when the governor doesn't want them there. And so it would have been a tougher sell in the streets of Chicago. But nonetheless, he will continue to do this where he can and make crime a very, very big issue. Because when we're talking about crime, we're not talking about the economy. And the one thing that Donald Trump absolutely promised to do was bring prices down and make everybody feel better off. And that has really obviously not happened yet. And in fact, the economy may be going in the wrong direction. So instead of telling people they feel better off when they don't, make them feel less safe and say that you're the one who is going to be tackling all of this and take really dramatic law enforcement action wherever you possibly can and maybe people will stop worrying about the price of eggs.

Justin (21:45)

Yeah. And while you were talking, Sarah, I've looked up the advertisement that you referred to, the Dukakis advert. So this is the, the Willie Horton advert aimed at Mike Dukakis, Bush and Dukakis on crime. Bush supports the death penalty for first degree murderers. Dukakis not only opposes the death penalty, he allowed first degree murderers to have weekend passes from prison. One was Willie Horton, who murdered a boy in a robbery, stabbing him 19 times. Despite a life sentence, Horton received 10 weekend passes from prison. Horton fled, kidnapped a young couple, stabbing the man and repeatedly raping his girlfriend. Weekend prison passes. Dukakis on crime. I mean, it is totemic actually, isn't it? In, in recent American presidential history has been something that absolutely sunk presidential candidates. So when we say if they can change the subject, if you just saying if they can change the subject onto crime and if they can focus on this one, which seems so clear cut in so many ways and can be portrayed as so clear cut in so many ways, it is potentially a very.

Sarah (22:49)

Big deal and to the point where you've even got the White House looking at pooling federal funding from Charlotte's public transport system. Now, how taking money away from a public transport system makes it safer, I'm not entirely sure. But the city does get millions of dollars in funding that covers about 12% of its annual budget. Let's have a listen to what the Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy said to fo.

Chris Counahan (23:14)

I can't pull money today from their transit system. I actually have to do an investigation. That's what the law requires. We start that investigation tomorrow. And I guarantee all your viewers that if I find what I think I'm going to find, they are not going to have your federal tax dollars going to their public transportation system. Zero, none, nada.

Justin (23:32)

And that's politics. And you can see the politics of it. But as you suggest I mean, with what purpose? I mean, you know, it really does beg a belief, actually, doesn't it, that a system that plainly needs more security and more help gets less money. But I suppose, you know, the fact is that in, as in so many other areas where politics in modern America intervenes, ordinary common sense kind of goes out of the window. And you do wonder whether, you know, just any effort to damage Charlotte, not the state of North Carolina, which of course, as we were saying, a Republican state, but damage Charlotte, the city and the Democratic establishment there and by extension other Democratic establishments in other cities will just be seized on. It is, I mean, it's a really grim situation actually, isn't it? We constantly talk about these things in the wider politics. But I keep going back to the woman herself, actually, and the tragedy of the situation.

Sarah (24:31)

It's a very live political issue that really does get to people in quite a visceral way.

Justin (24:37)

Okay, Sarah, I think we both are saying that this is not the last that people are going to hear about Irina Zyrutska and the terrible end that she met with. But also we should say as well, just before we say goodbye that the sympathy of many ordinary people who don't get involved in the political strife about this, the sympathy of them will be with her and with her family. And there are still plenty of decent, decent people in America around the world who will either see something like this or read about it or see reports of it, and their first reaction won't be political. It'll just be enormous sadness about her. But anyway, it is something that we know will become political. It's already become political, but it's going to be, as we were saying, part of the political debate almost certainly over the next year or so. And it's important that we all try to understand what has gone on and.

Sarah (25:32)

Remember the person and the personal in it as well, as it probably becomes more and more politicized.

Justin (25:37)

That's it from both of us. Bye, bye bye.

Sarah (25:42)

Ameracast, ameracast from BBC News.

Justin (25:46)

Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an Americaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week actually on the podcast. So keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. App. We will be back with another podcast very soon, so until then, see you later. Bye.

Sarah (26:45)

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Chris Counahan (27:46)

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Sarah (28:18)

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Chris Counahan (28:52)

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Justin (29:38)

Thank goodness. What was that site?

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