The battle for the soul of the Democratic Party

Summary

Podcast Summary: Americast — "The Battle for the Soul of the Democratic Party"

Date: October 15, 2025
Hosted by: Sarah Smith (BBC North America Editor), Justin Webb (BBC Radio 4 Presenter)

---

Overview:

This episode of Americast delves into the crucial “off-year” state elections in the U.S. and uses them as a lens to examine the internal dynamics and existential questions facing the Democratic Party after its 2024 electoral defeat. The hosts explore whether the Democrats’ future lies with moderate, centrist candidates or the more progressive, activist wing, and assess how upcoming races in New Jersey and Virginia serve as a microcosm for the party’s evolving identity and strategy in the Trump era.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Stakes: Off-Year Elections as a Litmus Test (02:19–04:30)

• Elections as a Forecast: These "off-year" gubernatorial elections in Virginia and New Jersey are positioned not just as harbingers for the 2028 presidential race but as critical to understanding the Democrats' path forward after the party's 2024 drubbing.

• Testing Democratic Models: The contests reveal competing models for Democratic candidates — centrist moderates focused on bread-and-butter issues vs. progressive activists pushing for more radical change.

  “As we look around the country, we can see in different races, different versions of the future of the Democrats and whether that is young left wing progressives or...more mainstream establishment candidates.”
  — Sarah Smith (03:39)

2. Candidate Profiles: Moderates in the Spotlight (04:30–05:36)

• Mikie Sherrill (NJ) & Abigail Spanberger (VA): Both have national security credentials — Sherrill as a Navy helicopter pilot and Spanberger in the CIA — and campaign on mainstream, centrist issues like affordability, moving away from divisive culture war topics.
• Electoral Geography Matters: Virginia is a purple state with vast differences between affluent, government-focused Northern Virginia and its poorer, rural south, shaping the issues that matter.

3. Culture Wars and Political Calculations (08:41–13:46)

• Trans Rights in Virginia: At the one debate, Spanberger is pressed on school bathroom policies for trans students and chooses a local-control answer, reflecting a broader effort among moderates to avoid culture war flashpoints.

  “It sounds like a bit of a dodge...Abigail Spanberger would really rather talk about anything else other than trans issues.”
  — Sarah Smith (10:06)

• Republican Strategy: Opponents, like Winsome Earl Sears, are using these issues in attack ads, echoing Trump-style messaging on the dangers of “they/them” policies.

• Dem Party Tensions: Discussion of whether the Democrats have moved beyond intra-party ‘civil wars’ over such issues or if they’re risking alienating parts of their progressive base by moderating.

4. Scandal and “October Surprises” (14:37–17:43)

• Jay Jones Texts: A down-ballot Democratic candidate in Virginia is embroiled in a controversy over violent rhetoric, which spills over into the Spanberger campaign, exemplifying how easily unrelated snags can become partisan ammunition.

  “This has been leapt on by Republicans...this has become quite a big issue in the campaign, why Spanberger won't totally disavow Jay Jones.”
  — Sarah Smith (16:23)

5. Governors Matter—and So Do Their Trajectories (18:28–19:26)

• Importance of State Leadership: Governorships offer real executive power and provide launchpads for future Democratic stars. There's chatter about both Sherrill and Spanberger as future presidential contenders, though 2028 seems unlikely for another female candidate.

6. Setting the Tone for 2026 Midterms (19:26–24:28)

• Primary Battles Ahead: The nature of Democratic candidate selection is scrutinized—centrists versus progressives, and whether the party will allow more conservative Democrats in red states, or set litmus tests on issues like abortion and trans rights.

• Tea Party Analogies: Discussion of whether the Democratic Party is on the verge of its own “Tea Party” moment—a grassroots revolt from the left challenging established leadership, akin to what Republicans experienced post-2008.

  “All over the country there will be different issues that matter more to local states coming up, all probably seen through this left right prism.”
  — Sarah Smith (33:22)

7. Bernie vs. Schumer in Maine and Beyond (28:09–30:27)

• Senate Primary Proxy Battle: The Maine Senate race features establishment favorite Janet Mills (backed by Chuck Schumer) versus progressive Graham Platner (backed by Bernie Sanders), symbolizing the intra-party tug-of-war.

• Discontent with Leadership: Schumer’s unpopularity is underlined—candidates could use opposition to him as a campaign plank.

  “It'll be one of the litmus tests, I think...would you reelect Chuck Schumer as the group leader in the Democrats?”
  — Sarah Smith (30:04)

8. Populism and the Changing Political Axis (35:00–37:56)

• Not Just Left vs. Right: The hosts suggest a new “top-to-bottom” politics is taking shape, where populist language and working-class appeals may matter more than traditional ideological divides.

• Marjorie Taylor Greene Example: Even firebrand Republicans are tacking ‘downwards’ to focus on working-class issues, and the Democrats must reckon with their current image as the “elite” party.

  “We maybe have to stop thinking about things being on the left or the right and think about them more from being the bottom to the top.”
  — Sarah Smith (35:00)

9. The Baseline: Is Moderation Enough? (36:52–37:56)

• Need for Populist Energy: There’s growing skepticism that a centrist, Clinton-style triangulation is enough. The Democrats may need to find a populist message — not just moderation — to regain lost voters and momentum.

  “I used to think the Democrats will get back when they find, you know, a Bill Clinton figure...But I think you're right...that's not enough.”
  — Justin Webb (36:52)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “These elections...are a fabulous test. Does the electorate get to weigh in on what kind of Democrats...they want to vote for?”
  — Sarah Smith (03:39)

• “Abigail Spanberger would really rather talk about anything else other than trans issues.”
  — Sarah Smith (10:06)

• “If you've got to come back from the dead the way the Democratic Party do, can you do it without some level of Tea Party-ish excitement?”
  — Sarah Smith (26:00)

• “There’s got to be something that people can attach themselves to believe in. And it has to be populist… because without that in the modern political world, it’s difficult to win.”
  — Justin Webb (36:52)

• “We maybe have to stop thinking about things being on the left or the right and think about them more from being the bottom to the top.”
  — Sarah Smith (35:00)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Election Stakes & Party Identity: 02:19–04:30
• Candidate Biographies & State Context: 04:30–07:25
• Culture War Campaigns (Trans Issues): 08:41–13:46
• Controversies & Down-Ballot Impact: 14:37–17:43
• Governorships as Power and Springboards: 18:28–19:26
• Primary Battles & Tea Party Parallels: 19:26–28:09
• The Maine Senate Race (Schumer vs. Sanders): 28:09–30:27
• Populist Reorientation & Party Messaging: 35:00–37:56

---

Tone & Style Notes

• Conversational yet deeply analytical, with personal asides and candid opinions (e.g., “I’ve completely changed my mind…” – Justin Webb).
• Frequent use of illustrative anecdotes and meta-commentary on American political processes, often comparing them to British politics for context.
• Focused on listening for “what’s next” and encouraging audience engagement with next episode teasers and listener questions.

---

Conclusion

The episode positions the 2025 off-year elections as the opening battles in a bigger ideological war for the heart of the Democratic Party. Will the party find its way back with moderate, steady hands, or is a populist, progressive insurgency the only way to truly counter Trumpism in modern America? The hosts promise deeper dives into these dynamics as the campaign season heats up, especially in races like New York's mayoralty, where these currents are even more pronounced.

Transcript

[Justin Webb]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[Luma Nutrition Advertiser]

Worried about heart health. Listen to this A study of over 30,000 people found that Nattokinase, an ancient Japanese superfood, can reduce heart attack risk by 25% and stroke risk by 33%. Luma Nutrition has perfected a powerful Nattokinase formula made in the USA and third party tested for purity and quality. Ready to start your journey to a healthy heart? You can try Nattokinase today for up to 40% off when you visit lumanutrition.com that's L U M A nutrition.lumanutrition.com Veteran owned, proudly made in the USA.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in, the debit card and money app made for families. With greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] iheart that's greenlight.com iheart.

[Justin Webb]

Folks. Is it finally happening? Are the Democrats finally fighting back? Yes, there is the government shutdown and we've talked a bit about that. But now we are approaching a real moment of truth. Actual elections in real states where real people make real decisions. And the Democrats could be back or not. Welcome to americast.

[Sarah Smith]

Americast americast from BBC News. When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir.

[Luma Nutrition Advertiser]

Happy to lick your boot, sir.

[Sarah Smith]

We are the sickest country in the world.

[Moderator/Interviewer]

Oh dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests.

[Sarah Smith]

What a stupid question.

[Janet Mills]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

[Sarah Smith]

Hello, it's Sarah here in Washington, D.C.

[Justin Webb]

And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England. And Sarah, we have a frisson of excitement running through everything we do today because we're actually talking about elections finally.

[Sarah Smith]

Yes, and we're trying to predict the future by looking at these upcoming elections, not just for what will happen on 4 November, which is polling day here in the United States, but what it could mean way into the Future, way into 2028, because although this is not a midterms year, it's what they call an off year in the electoral cycle. There are some big races that will be voted on on November 4, including the governorships in New Jersey and Virginia.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And we're not, we should say right at the start, we're not going to look at Zoran Mamdani in New York, who's likely to become mayor of New York, number one, because we have talked a bit about him quite recently, number two, because I think we ought to devote an entire episode to him. But what is really interesting in a way about this is that it's not just all about New York. And that's going to become a thing increasingly obvious as these elections are held the beginning of next month and the various ramifications of them sink in, that these are two states, Virginia and New Jersey, that are in themselves important states and states where the Democrats, it seems to me, if they can do well with the kind of candidates that they have in those states, they almost, almost make a statement to themselves. It seems to be, never mind to the rest of the country. They make a statement to themselves, heck, we can do it, we can win.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. Because let's not underestimate the state that the Democrats are in at the moment. They got absolutely slaughtered in the 2024 elections with many self inflicted wounds as well, it has to be said, as they are arguing with each other about what went wrong in 2024 and what the future strategy should be. So as we look around the country, we can see in different races, different versions of the future of the Democrats and whether that is young left wing progressives or whether it's more mainstream establishment candidates. And when that gets tested at the ballot box is going to be a major step in the development of the Democratic Party as they try and work out what they could possibly do to take on Donald Trump or Trumpism in upcoming election. So I think these are a fabulous test. Does the electorate get to weigh in on what kind of Democrats it is that they want to vote for? And we'll have a real say in shaping the way the party goes in the future.

[Justin Webb]

Right. And the two candidates, Mikey Sherrill in New Jersey, Abigail Spanberger in Virginia, both of them, I mean, is it right to call them moderates? Is that, does, does that have a kind of meaning? Do we understand from that, what, what they are?

[Sarah Smith]

Or is that the wrong term, moderate or centrist? And they're a little bit more traditional in some ways. I mean, so both of them personally are quite interesting. They've both served in the House of Representatives, but they both have national security backgrounds which they lean on quite heavily in their biographies and things. Mikey Sherrill, who is the Democrat candidate in New Jersey, was a Navy helicopter pilot. Abigail Spanberger, the candidate in Virginia, was, had a very high flying career in the CIA until she went into politics. And they're focusing on very centrist issues, mostly about the cost of living, saying, luke, Donald Trump promised he would bring prices down and make your life more affordable. He hasn't done it. And trying to stay away from culture war kind of issues. And so in many ways it feels like, I don't know, throwback to kind of Clinton Democrats or something like that, playing it pretty straight and down the middle.

[Justin Webb]

And just to set out sort of pen portraits of the two states, Virginia, not far from where you are at the moment, just across the river from Washington, D.C. at least that's Northern Virginia. And that's the really kind of upper end of it, isn't it? Certainly in terms of incomes and wealth. And you can see anyone who's been to Dulles Airport and driven into Washington, D.C. as lots of ameracasters will have done, will have seen the wealth along that road and the wealth that extends out into Northern Virginia. But then the south of the state, pretty poor, actually. And a lot of it, you know, just Forest actually is an enormous and beautiful state. So it, it, it contains everything politically. I mean, it's got a Republican governor at the moment, hasn't it? So this is an effort to, it's, yeah.

[Sarah Smith]

Swings back and forward. It's pretty purple, I would say, in many ways.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. That's the point, isn't it, that it, it is genuinely up for grabs from the Democrats, but it's not a slam dunk.

[Sarah Smith]

And of course, you're absolutely right, Justin, about the fairly prosperous suburbs of Northern Virginia. But remember, a huge number of those people in those homes worked for the federal government. And I say worked because a huge number of them now don't anymore. So one of the big parts of Abigail Spamberger's campaign has been talking about the way in which Donald Trump is reshaping the government, what Elon Musk and Doge did to firing all those federal workers, the way in which they're remaking a whole lot of the agencies and some of the more subtle arguments about Donald Trump potentially undermining democracy or hampering the effectiveness of the federal government, which you might not care about. Voters in, I don't know, Arkansas or Illinois, in Northern Virginia, they care a very great deal about it because a lot of them have made their entire lives and careers in government. And so that's quite a salient issue there as well.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And you think of New Jersey, gritty New Jersey Just south of New York City. You'd sort of expect it to be Democratic. But actually, again, there is a mixed history, isn't there?

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. I mean, you look at somebody like Chris Christie, really famous former governor of New Jersey, who, yeah, was a pretty mainstream Republican, embraced Trump for a while, then completely fell out with him, but, you know, but famously, literally embraced Barack Obama, didn't he, when he visited after a natural disaster. And, you know, he's been on many sides of the argument. Ads have different Democratic governors whom they've had in New Jersey as well. So, yeah, it's another place to test both, I think what the Democrats need to do to try and win back all sorts of voters whom they lost to Trump in 2024, but also how to fight against Trump, because these are the first elections held after we've had nine months or so of Donald Trump in office. And what a whirlwind nine months has been. There's a lot for people to cast their verdict on. So that would be another big test in these elections as to what extent people are still coming out for Trump who were maybe reluctant Republican voters last, or has he actually inspired a whole lot of people to come out and vote Republican on the basis of what he's done?

[Justin Webb]

And a good example of that was the debate. It's actually the only debate they had in the Virginia gubernatorial race. But this is the moment that Abigail Spamberger is pressed to take a firm position on who should be allowed to use the boys bathroom and the girl's bathroom in Virginia schools.

[Moderator/Interviewer]

The way that we keep our children safe is by ensuring they are safe in schools, which includes funding, law enforcement and public safety.

[Propane Advertiser]

But, Ms. Spanberger, the question was, should the young. Would you rescind the Youngkin administration policy requiring boys and girls to use bathrooms aligning with their biological sex? You have 15 seconds to clarify that question.

[Moderator/Interviewer]

And my answer is that in each local community, decisions should be made between parents and educators and teachers in each community.

[Justin Webb]

Just to clarify, the Youngkin referred to, there is the current Governor Youngkin, the Republican who had that rule, that law, that decision that requires girls and boys to use the bathrooms that align with their biological sex. I felt. Sarah, I don't know. I mean, I thought she sort of handled it okay because she didn't want to completely go against it. She obviously isn't entirely in favor of it, pushing it onto localities. It's not a disaster. What do you reckon?

[Sarah Smith]

No, I mean, it sounds like a bit of a dodge, which of course it is. And that's Because Abigail Spamberg would really rather talk about anything else other than trans issues. Because, you know, she's part of the wing of the party who think that they went too far on some of these culture issues stuff, that these, that these sort of DEI initiatives and trans issues are among the things that put people off Democrats and possibly push them, all sorts of voters towards Donald Trump. But her opponent, winsome Earl Sears, sees a real opportunity here and has been running ads saying that Abigail Spamberger is for they them and Errol Sears is for you.

[Justin Webb]

The old echo of the Trump copy of it. Yeah. Such a success for him. I can't see it working quite so much second time round.

[Sarah Smith]

Interesting though, isn't it, that even though Spamberger doesn't have, you know, a particularly outrageous policy on this, there isn't some previous statement like, you know, they got Kamala Harris was found to have supported government money being used to pay for sex change operations for incarcerated prisoners in California. Right. That sounds quite extreme. There's nothing like that on Abigail Spamberger that they can cast up to say, look, she's an extremist on these issues. But nonetheless, the way the Republicans here think that you attack Democrats is by trying to pin this trans issue on them.

[Justin Webb]

Say for the sake of argument that actually she is on the wing of the Democratic Party and has been a very quiet wing so far, but there is a wing and there are people among the Democrats who think actually, you know, this whole things a disaster. We actually think, and we talked to one on the podcast, didn't we, Seth Moulton some time ago, one of these Democrats who says, look, I mean, he said openly to us, I don't want my daughter to play sports with biological males. If she were to think that and decide to say it and put the issue to bed, what would the comeback be on her? What would she suffer? Because it goes, it seems to me, to something we're going to talk about quite a bit over the next 20 minutes or so, which is the extent to which the Democrat Party can become a party that welcomes people from all wings. In other words, you can absolutely believe, if you want to believe, that it's incredibly important to look after trans people because trans people are oppressed and have a terrible time and they should be allowed to live the lives they want to live. You can absolutely believe that. But then you can equally believe, actually, I think in the case of school bathrooms, you should go to the bathroom that aligns with your biological sex. And you can have people who believe either of those things, but still have them in the Democratic Party and they would run then in those areas where the majority of people aligned with what they believed and said and we're some way off that, I suppose, is the point I'm making or the question I'm asking.

[Sarah Smith]

So definitely what would have happened in the recent past if you had Democrats running for office and saying the kind of things that you're saying, Justin, it would spark a civil war within the party and there would be, you know, a social media spike that we would need to get Marianna to talk about as people were trying to cancel each other left, right and center, and it would just draw more attention to the issue and you would have this kind of blue on blue battle going on over it. I don't know if that would happen today to quite the same extent. I mean, you know, obviously one can imagine that in New York and San Francisco there are Democrat activists who would be absolutely incensed. Would they all pile on, on a gubernatorial candidate in Virginia, or do they too think that maybe now is not the time to be emphasizing these issues? I couldn't tell you the answer to that, but it'd be really, really interesting to watch the next time we do see a Democrat taking a more conservative position on any of these particularly fraught issues, whether the pile on is quite the way it would have been in the last five years or so.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, let's hold that thought because I want to come back to it when we come to the next section, which we're going to talk about, which is not just the elections that are coming up this November, but the preparation, the getting of the candidates for the elections in a year's time, the midterm elections, which is already very much taking place and already actually quite controversial in various parts. Let's just stick with Virginia for a second because. Okay, that's how she dealt with the trans thing, and we sort of feel she kind of dealt with it okay. She kicked it off into the long grass and it certainly doesn't seem to be damaging her in the polls, does it? She looks at the moment as if she is on course potentially to win. She's had another problem, hasn't she, though? Which is a kind of one of these things that's just come from left field, but potentially causes her some embarrassment, although it doesn't really. It's not about her herself or her politics or anything she's done.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah, this is probably what you would call an October surprise in American electioneering, where everybody says, you know, there's often something that comes out of a clear blue sky in October, just a few weeks before polling that knocks everything. And it's impossible to anticipate what it might be. Well, in the case of this Virginia election, what it is, is there is another Democratic candidate running to be Attorney general called Jay Jones. Jones and CNN got hold of some text messages that were sent in 2022 to another lawmaker sent by Jay Jones. And he was talking about the then Republican speaker of the House in Virginia, Todd Gilbert. And he said, if you've got three people, two bullets, Gilbert, Hitler and Pol Pot, Gilbert gets two bullets to the head. So. Meaning, you know, he would choose to shoot the Republican speaker of the House rather than Hitler or Pol Pot. That's a version of an old joke. And I don't think anybody thinks that he it seriously. But, you know, in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, this kind of violent rhetoric is taken very, very seriously in the states at the moment. And this has been leapt on by Republicans to make a huge issue out of this, to say that you certainly can't vote for him to be Attorney General when he was, they say, advocating political violence. And it's ended up reflecting on Abigail Spamberger as well, because she gets asked about it all the time.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, well, let's listen to her being asked about it by her opponent again.

[Moderator/Interviewer]

At that debate the day that they came out. And I denounced them as soon as I learned of them. She denounces murder. Importantly, at this point, as we move forward, the voters now have this information, information that was withheld for them. You're running presumably for reasons, but the voters now have the information. And it is up to voters to make an individual choice based on this information.

[Sarah Smith]

What she did not say there and what she will not say during this campaign is that people shouldn't vote for Jay Jones because of these text messages. And that's what her Republican opponent is pursuing her for saying, how can you run as governor and potentially be advising people to vote for someone for Attorney General who sent this message? And so this has become quite a big issue in the campaign, why Spamberger won't totally disavow Jay Jones. And he won't, of course, because he's a fellow Democratic candidate. And so that's how it's. They're managing to make the issue about Spamberger rather than just about Jones. Every single one of these things that comes up, if you have Spamberger having to talk about it, of course that's time. It's not spent talking about affordability and the cost of living, which is what she really, really wants to be hammering on. Because to bring up this and the debate that there is around the trans issues is to possibly give the wrong impression of what this race is about or certainly what the Democrats want it to be about. I mean, they really are focused straight down the middle on housing costs, on grocery costs, on inflation, on tariffs, on that kind of thing. And that's really where the test of all of this will probably come down to, is on those bread and butter issues, can the Democrats win people back? And can they in the poorer parts of the state win back working class voters who in so many cases were lost to the Republicans? Is this the approach to get them back on board?

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And in both places, both in Virginia and in New Jersey, they have a real chance. I mean, let's not. It's pointless to predict elections, isn't it? But the polls suggest that they can win and both of them, and that's obviously hugely important for the party as a kind of morale booster, but also because people will be trusting them. And it's important. All Americasters know that governors are important, but we ought to underline as well, they are being trusted to run things. This is, in a sense, more important than elections to the nation's legislature, to Congress, because these people are being trusted by local people to run their state. And being the governor of a state really matters.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah, you've got huge power as the governor of a state, but also it's a great springboard to the White House as well. You know, a lot of people go from governorships into the White House. And when I talk to more mainstream establishment Democrats who are here in Washington, the people who, who want to campaign on these more moderate issues, the people who flinch every time AOC or somebody's back on the television, they are desperate for these women to win. Partly to prove that this centrist cause is the way to recapture the country, but also because they think they are both really strong potential presidential candidates at some point, not in 2028, because after Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris, there is absolutely no way the Democrats will run a woman as their candidate in 2028. But in 32 or sometime like that, people like and including Abigail Spamberger and Mikey Sherrill, who, you know, there are a lot of people here in D.C. think that they represent the future of the Democratic Party in more ways than one.

[Justin Webb]

We should talk a bit about what happens next after these elections, shouldn't we? Because as soon as these elections are over, and let's assume for the sake of argument that both women win. The party's then into and this is in a sense why we've decided to talk about them now and why they're so important. They're important because of what is happening in those states. They're important because these are important elections. But also they set the tone, don't they, for the party in the run up to selecting the candidates who are going to run right across the country in the Senate elections and in all the House elections. In other words, the whole House is up for election, as it always is every two years, all those elections. They've got to find the right candidates and they've got to debate all the things we've just been talking about. Which part of the party do you go to? What do you say about the things that haven't done so well for us in the past, et cetera, et cetera. And this in a sense, doesn't it sort of sets the tone for that.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah, there will be quite a strong focus, I think, on us looking at, say, for instance, primaries for senatorial candidates in a way we might not normally, because we've got to try and detect who the new leaders coming through are going to be and what wing of the party they're going to be coming from and how much damage the party might do to itself by having these sometimes fairly brutal arguments and civil wars amongst themselves out in the open. Because that's what the primary process does. It means you can't do this behind closed doors. It means that you are having open debates and out there campaigning and criticizing your fellow Democrat opponents as you go through it. Also, I mean, this is going to be an absolutely fascinating year watching how these primaries develop within the party.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And then number one question, and this refers back to what you were saying to me about the Virginia trans stuff, is the litmus test. So you were saying, hang on a second, there are some people for whom this is hugely important, the trans issue and rights for trans people, etc. Etc. You can't just dismiss it. Well, here's the question. Can you dismiss it to the extent then that in some areas of the country you say we're going to run people who don't agree with those things? And actually it's actually about other things too, particularly abortion. Can you run someone who's not keen on abortion, not particularly pro choice as Democrats might have been in rural areas 20 years or so ago? Can you go back to that now and run those sorts of people in, I don't know, Nebraska or the Dakotas or whatever. Or will there be, as you were saying, people who say, hang on a second, if we stand for anything, we must stand for this. This must be a litmus test of whether you can be or cannot be a Democratic Party candidate. And it seems to me that it's those sorts of things, isn't it, that they've got to face up to and think about now.

[Sarah Smith]

And of course, Americas must be well aware that it's voters who decide this, not the elite of the party, not some executives sitting in the DNC headquarters here in Washington. In Nebraska, in the Dakotas, voters who are registered as Democrats will go to the polls and pick between their primary candidates. Now, of course, you know, fewer people vote in these primaries than vote in midterm elections than, and that's even fewer than vote in the years when there's a presidential election. It's people who are pretty active and pretty engaged in the party, but nonetheless, it is the voter base of Nebraska and the Dakotas who do this. So if you have somebody who is not particularly pro choice, but that reflects the way the state is, then it's up to Nebraskans to decide whether or not that's who they want to represent them. It's one of the really fascinating ways in which American politics is so, so different from British politics that these candidates have had to put themselves up in front of voters so many more times before they even get to officially run. And how much more involved grassroots voters are in the entire process and actually shaping which way they want their candidates to take the party.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, and that then takes us to the other question. So that's just throwing open primaries and saying, who are we going to have? But of course, there are plenty of these seats, most of these seats in the House that we're talking about, that the Democrats are going to win next time are seats they've already won last time because that's the way the House works, isn't it? There are actually very few seats that change hands. They're hoping, I don't know, maybe 30 or so do, but most won't. And in those seats that Democrats already hold, are they now going to face challenges from other parts of the party that say, you're messing this all up? Because that's the other question, isn't it? Never mind the, the left or rightness, et cetera? Sarah, it's also the, it's almost a Tea Party thing, isn't it? You look to what happened to the Republican Party in 2009, 2010 or so, where it Just blew up. They were sick of their leaders, they're annoyed that Obama got elected, et cetera, et cetera. And they had this great kind of revolution in the party that led eventually to Donald Trump. And you hear people, don't you, talking about the Tea Party moment in the Democratic Party having arrived or arriving now.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. And we said we weren't going to talk about Zoram Mandani, but just to mention him, who is the really quite left wing, he calls himself Democratic Socialist, Democrat candidate in New York who's also riding pretty high in the polls and who represents a very different kind of future for the Democratic Party from the likes of Sherrill and Spanberger, but who also is polling well and is extremely likely to win. What he represents is a much more left wing position. But he's generated all of this excitement and enthusiasm. And one thing that's fascinating is I've spoken to voters there who say they don't necessarily believe everything he says. When he says I'm going to freeze the rents or I'm going to make all public transport free. They don't think he can do that, but they like the aspiration, they like the enthusiasm with which he's attacking it. It's like Trump voters who knew he couldn't fulfill all his promises that all not to take too seriously all of the Trump rhetoric, but you know, like what he's talking about, the direction he's heading in and you like the vibes basically. How do moderate centrists who might look like the answer to everything because you can, you know, capture back some swing voters who'll be disenchanted with Donald Trump, but won't be put off by attitudes that are too progressive? Since when has that ever generated the levels of excitement that you see both among MAGA supporters and somebody like Mamdami being able to do in New York? And if you've got to come back from the dead the way the Democratic Party do, can you do it without some level of Tea Party ish excitement?

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And that then brings us to the state of Maine and to this exchange. I wonder if people will remember it. Let's listen.

[Janet Mills]

Is the Maine here the governor of Maine? Are you not going to comply with it?

[Sarah Smith]

I'm complying with state.

[Janet Mills]

Well, we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it because you're not going to get any federal funding at all if you don't. And by the way, your population, even though it's somewhat liberal, although I did very well there, your population doesn't want men playing in women's sports. So you better, you better comply because otherwise you're not getting any, any federal funding, every state. Good. I'll see you in court. I look forward to that. That should be a real easy one.

[Justin Webb]

Okay, now we're not going to get back into that issue as a substantive issue, but that was an exchange between Janet Mills, the governor of Maine, and Donald Trump, really way back, right at the beginning of his, of his second term. And it was an exchange about an executive order he'd just signed on trans issues and she was standing up to him and see you in court and all the rest of it on the back of that, Sarah. And it's so interesting that she is now mounting, isn't she, an effort to become the Senate candidate next year to fight against Susan Collins, who is this strangely left wing Republican, I suppose the only one left, really the only left wing Republican or centrist Republican in the Senate who every, every time she comes up for re election, the Democrats think, oh, we're going to get rid of her this time. They never quite managed to, but this time they do think they have a hope. Janet Mills wants to run, but, and she's running on that exchange, basically, she's using it in adverts to say, look how strong I am. I can stand up to President Trump, et cetera, et cetera. But she's very much the candidate of the establishment of the party. And it's exactly what you were just talking about with Mamdani, isn't it, this idea that actually that doesn't work this time round. And there is a bit of a pushback, isn't there, to whether or not she should be allowed to stand to be the candidate?

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah, she's Washington's preferred choice. Chuck Schumer, who's the Democratic leader in the Senate. He wanted her to run because he thinks she can win. She's been a pretty popular governor. She can't run for governor again. She's term limited. She says she would only serve one term in the Senate if she was elected because she's no spring chicken. She's 77 years old. She'd be 79 by the time she was taking the oath of office in the Senate. Now, you know, there's plenty of them in their 80s in there. But there are some people who think that maybe if you're trying to totally revitalize the party, you might want some slightly younger candidates to do it. One of her potential opponents, Graham Platner, who's an oyster farmer in Maine, it's such a main thing to do, isn't it? It's fantastic. He is not only being backed by Bernie Sanders, so from the progressive left, he's already raised well over $3 million for a campaign. So somebody who is prepared to stand up to the establishment with a more progressive message can clearly attract funding and attention. And that's going to be a primary battle that's going to be really, really fascinating to watch because you essentially got proxies for Chuck Schumer versus Bernie Sanders on who gets to decide who the candidates going forward ought to be.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And it's worth saying Chuck Schumer is staggeringly unpopular right around the party, and not just because of his age. And he feels a bit out of it when it comes to politics and modern politics and the ability to communicate in the way that you need to, et cetera, et cetera, but also actually, they just think he's messed up again and again and again. And he's probably, it's fair to say, isn't it, Sarah, because of the shutdown, which eventually he decided to go for the government shutdown that they pressed for and have now achieved. He's probably saved himself at least up until the midterms, I assume. But I think a lot of the candidates who are coming through are going to be anti Schumer people. So I suppose what I'm saying is there's an awful lot of bloodletting still to happen.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. It'll be one of the litmus tests, I think, for a lot of these senatorial candidates will be, would you reelect Chuck Schumer as the group leader in the Democrats? And there will be people campaigning very much on saying, no, I won't. And that would be one of the dividing issues between these candidates. Be a way in which we can sort of separate them, I guess, into the more progressive left and the more centrist ones as we try and take the temperature of what direction the party's.

[Justin Webb]

Heading before we leave the state of Maine. Can I be even nerdier about the state and focus? If we're sort of looking at the state from outer space, and we focused in now on the state and the Senate seat that's up for grabs next year. There is also, of course, a House race in Maine, House races, and there is a House race in particular. So one particular district in the state of Maine, that is the district in the whole nation held by a Democrat that is the Trumpiest, if you see what I mean. In other words, this district voted the heaviest for Trump as well as for a Democratic candidate who won. So this guy, his name is Jared golden, who represents this district in Maine. Absolutely. It seems to me epitomizes everything we've just been talking about when it comes to the decisions that the Democrats have to make because he is the congressman. Jared Goldin for this district in Maine, this very Trump oriented, Trump friendly district. He managed to win it in spite of the fact that people there elected Donald Trump, voted for Donald Trump. He is now, and this is the reason I bring him up, he is now being threatened with a primary election by people inside the Democratic Party who say, you, Jared Goldin, you're too right wing, you're too conservative. I think he describes himself as a conservative progressive or something like that. He's basically a populist conservative, but he is a Democrat. And what other Democrats are saying, and this goes to the heart of it, doesn't it, Sarah? Other Democrats are saying, you're too right wing, we want to get rid of you, even though they are being told, hang on a second, if we get rid of this guy, we have no hope at all of keeping this seat.

[Sarah Smith]

Yeah. So it's this idea of these kind of purity tests of your views and the moral virtue of being further to the left and more progressive and the extent to which Democrats can try to put that behind them are. Yeah. At the very least, marginalized people who want to raise primary challenges. Or if, as you say, we are at some kind of Tea Party moment where you will see an uprising of younger left wing candidates overthrow the more traditional leadership by capturing, well, the nominations in a whole bunch of these primaries and going on to win. This is. Yeah, it's an exciting time to watch this battle in the party. And it's not just in Maine, of course, this will happen all over the place. There's going to be a battle royal in Michigan over just about every nomination, I think, over Israel and Gaza. We've already seen some candidates there who are more or less pro Israel or those who describe what's happened in Gaza as a genocide and blame both Joe Biden and Donald Trump for allowing it to go on so long. There's going to be a really bitter battle there over that. Yeah. I mean, all over the country there will be different issues that matter more to local states coming up, all probably seen through this left right prism.

[Justin Webb]

But they've also got to work out who they're going to be up against and of course, who they're up against and what the people they're up against are saying is also changing. So It's a moving target that they're going to be facing. And it's not just that events go on and politics goes on. It's that the actual people are changing. And the classic example, Sarah, of that is Marjorie Taylor Greene, who a lot of marracasts will have come across. She has views that are, let us say, or at least were in the past, outside the mainstream. So one of the things she, she talked about in the past was lasers being used to set fires in a wildfire in California by a prominent Jewish family. And people just threw up their hands and said that's not the only odd belief that she had. And indeed quite unpleasant and harmful things that she has said about individuals. So she's very much regarded in American politics as being completely outside the pale. And people were pretty horrified, it's fair to say, including inside the Republican Party when she was elected as a Republican congresswoman. But now Marjorie Taylor Greene on all sorts of subjects is sort of tacking to the center or tacking to normal and offering to do business and actually talking to Democrats specifically when it comes to the big beautiful bill and whether or not it's right or not to shut down government and this business of health care which the Democrats are so keen to go for and Marjorie Taylor Greene herself going for now that maybe there are deals to be done. So another question, how close do you get to Marjorie Taylor Greene?

[Sarah Smith]

So I think you've hit on something here, Justin, that funnily enough, I was just about to mention and you've set me up even better, go for it about a different test for a politics and this could apply to the New York mayor's race as well as the ones that we've been talking about that we maybe have to stop thinking about things being on the left or the right and think about them more from being the bottom to the top. I'm reading a really interesting piece about this just yesterday and saying it's now about who can capture the votes of by representing the interests of those at the bottom or those who are seen to represent the elitists at the top. So the way you're talking about Marjorie Taylor Greene there, yes, perceived to be on the right, really very right wing in some instances. But what she's worried about with the shutdown is workers who can't afford, who live paycheck to paycheck, not getting paid. And she's worried about the big beautiful bill taking health care away from those who rely on state funded insurance because they're the people at the bottom of the economic chain as well. The people who voted for her, the people that she represents, they are, of course, the people who have moved almost wholesale to the Republicans over the last 20 years or so when it used to be the Democrats who had most of those working class votes. Now the Democrats are seen to represent the well off, smug liberal elite at the top of society. And though they have no connection to the grassroots anymore at all, Donald Trump has been very good at appealing to those at the bottom. Can the Democrats come back to that with candidates who are speaking that way, who, you know, in some ways, you might say Marjorie Taylor Greene and Zoram Damdame have more in common there possibly than either of them with, say, Chuck Schumer or John Thune. So, but, but that kind of, yeah, top to bottom look at politics instead of left to right. Maybe how we have to try and understand how you capture any excitement or enthusiasm in American politics these days.

[Justin Webb]

Such an interesting point, isn't it? And I've completely changed my mind. I used to think the Democrats will get back when they find, you know, a Bill Clinton figure or someone who's moderate and wants to triangulate and just be in the center and that's, that's going to win it for them. But I think you're right and I no longer think that that's enough. And I think a lot of Democrats, more importantly, much more importantly, don't think that it's enough just being moderate and trying to be nice to everyone and just win back the people that they've lost in recent decades. That's not enough. There's got to be something else. There's got to be something that people can attach themselves to believe in. And it has to be populist, at least in some way, shape or form, as you've just been outlining, because without that in the modern political world, it's difficult to win. Still, Sarah, a start coming in these elections next month. And that's, I suppose, why they're so important. But only a start, let's be clear. Only a start. An awful long way to go.

[Sarah Smith]

I think we've talked ourselves, Justin, into having to do a special episode on the New York mayor's race because that's even more expressive of what we're talking about here as well. And we have mentioned Zoram Dami a couple of times in this podcast and in previous ones. But I think we should focus in more detail on what's happening there before the election at the beginning of next month.

[Justin Webb]

Right? It is a promise. Sarah has made it. That means we will keep it. Bye bye bye bye.

[Sarah Smith]

Ameracast ameracast from BBC News.

[Justin Webb]

Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an ameracaster. It is of course a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week actually on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.

[Propane Advertiser]

The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point as demand soars from data centers and home energy use our aging infrastructure can't keep. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready, powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] homes.com knows having the right.

[Homes.com Advertiser]

Agent can make or break your home search. That's why they provide home shoppers with an agent directory that gives you a detailed look at each agent's experience, like the number of closed sales in a specific neighborhood, average price range, and more. It lets you easily connect with all the agents in the area you're searching so you can find the right agent with the right experience and ultimately the right home for you. Homes.com, we've done your homework.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in, the debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] iheartra that's greenlight.com iheartra.