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[00:00]
Justin Webb
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[00:06]
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[00:36]
Justin Webb
one of the great battlegrounds in modern American politics and modern American culture is men. What to do about them, how to attract them politically, how to treat them culturally. On the right, they're pretty sure they've done very well with men. The Trump campaign did well. The Republicans more generally do well, particularly young men who've been attracted to the right wing cause. On the left, they're more conflicted. There are plenty of left wing people who do not approve of what they regard as masculinity. But there is also a sense on the left that something has to be done to attract men back to the left, back to the Democratic Party. I've been talking to one person who has very strong views on modern American masculinity. He's not someone from the right, he's very much someone from the left, but he's someone who believes that the left needs to change.
[01:31]
Mariana
And.
[01:31]
Justin Webb
And we had a conversation as well about where America is going next. The character of America, which is so vital and in a sense, so unpolitical, it goes to what the place should be in the post Trump era. Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.
[01:48]
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AmericasT from BBC News.
[01:51]
Justin Webb
You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money.
[01:56]
Scott Galloway
We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.
[02:00]
Mariana
This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it.
[02:04]
Scott Galloway
This guy has Trump derangement syndrome. I have four words for you.
[02:09]
Justin Webb
Turn the volume up. Hello, it's Justin talking to you from the City of Bath and I'm going to be joined in a second by Mariana. And we're bringing you something we've done instead of Americansus because it's a bank holiday in Britain. So we've done an interview or I've done an interview with the author Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway, who is not just an author, actually, he's much more than that. He's a podcaster. He's an influencer in a way, particularly in the world of financial affairs, but actually much more widely as well. He's a kind of cultural commentator and he wrote this book called Notes on Being a Man. And one of the things he's really passionate about is changing the way, particularly the American left regards men and manhood. And he thinks they're making big mistakes about it and it needs to change. So I've done this interview with Scott, and we're going to bring it to you now. And then Marianna and I are going to discuss what he says, because what he says is controversial, and it's certainly controversial within the United States. But I think it's fair to say as well that it's having an increasing influence on people who are affected by it and wonder about it and wonder whether the Democratic Party needs to do something about it. So here we are. Without further ado, Scott Galloway talking to me. Enjoy it. Scott, you're not a Trump supporter. In fact, anything but. But you are someone who is critical of the left, aren't you? You think the left are getting this wrong?
[03:39]
Scott Galloway
Well, I think Donald Trump is president of the United States because of struggling young men, and that is to the far right's credit. They saw the problem first. The issue is they see that the remedy is to take women and nonwhites back to the 50s, which is not helpful. But look at Donald Trump. He flew right into the manosphere. Crypto rockets, World Wrestling Federation, being somewhat coarse and cruel, if you will, which unfortunately, people conflate, or some men conflate with masculinity. Whereas on the left, I went to the Democratic National Committee or convention, it was a parade of special interest groups articulating the very real issues they still face, but not one mention of the group that's fallen furthest, fastest, and that is young men. And so I don't think either group is, quite frankly, helping or addressing the issue. The far right conflates masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. And the far left, basically, their answer for young men is just acting more like, you know, you should act more like a woman, which I don't think is the answer either.
[04:39]
Justin Webb
It's interesting you mentioned the convention. I was there as well, up in Chicago, and you're absolutely right. And there were loads of influences there. And the one thing that, that definitely would not have been. I mean, you would have been committing a real kind of social faux pas if you'd suddenly said, what about the young men? Or particularly, what about the young white men? Why, though? What is it that prevents the Democrats seeing what you've been telling them?
[05:07]
Scott Galloway
Well, I think there's a natural gag reflex, because unfortunately, well, one, if you look at America from 1945 to 2000, we registered a third of the world's economic growth with 5% of the population. So we had six times the prosperity of the rest of the world. And then within that six acts of prosperity, about a third of the population that was white, heterosexual, and male registered the majority of the spoils. So you could argue that being born as I was in the 60s in California, a white, heterosexual male, that I had 15 to 20 times the prosperity that I had earned. And so I think there is a natural response that, okay, you've had a 3,000 a year head start. If young men now are having a little bit of a difficult time, maybe that's okay.
[05:50]
Justin Webb
It's payback time.
[05:51]
Scott Galloway
It's payback. But what I think people are coming to the realization is that, you know, who wants more viable, economically, emotionally viable young men, women. It's also hurting birth rates, it's hurting crime. And then what happens is when you have young men that don't feel seen, they're very receptive to sort of a nationalist Blame women, blame immigrants for your economic problems, blame women for your. For your romantic problems. And it's not your fault. The enemy's within. And I see you. And if you look at why President Trump got elected, if you look at the three groups that pivoted hardest from blue to red from 2020 to 2024, it was one, Latinos, which is hard to categorize into a single group, two, young men, and three, the most interesting demographic that went broke for Trump or went way more Trump is women aged 45 to 64. And my thesis, Justin, is that's their mothers. And there's still a lot of women in America who will vote for who they perceive as best in the best interest of their husbands and their sons. And if your son is in the basement playing video games and vaping, you don't care about territorial sovereignty in Ukraine or transgender rights. You just want change. So I would argue that the darkest moments in history where we've turned to very, very frightening nationalists that cause a lot of chaos in the world, there's always one static element, and that is a large cohort of young men with a lack of economic or romantic opportunities.
[07:16]
Justin Webb
You said earlier that one of the things the Democrats were getting wrong is they're just wanting men to be more like women. I mean, why not? What are they getting wrong in wanting that? Because I imagine there are quite a lot of women listening who say, well, yeah, it wouldn't be a bad thing, actually, but more femininity. But More embracing of all of that would be a good thing. You know, you said you don't want to go back to the 1950s, but is there not a risk that this becomes a kind of 1950s conversation where there are kind of sex differences or gender differences that we pander to, but actually in a way just in our minds?
[07:52]
Scott Galloway
To your point, masculinity and femininity are social constructs. They're empty vessels we get to fill. And I think that femininity is a wonderful attribute. And by the way, these things aren't sequestered to people born as males or females. I think a lot of men demonstrate wonderful feminine attributes. I think a lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculine attributes. But we've been celebrating femininity as we should, nurturing, more thoughtful, better eq. If I say women likely make better doctors, there's more in medical school, they're better students, they have better bedside manner. People clap their hands. But if I say on average, men oftentimes make better entrepreneurs or combat soldiers because they're more risk aggressive, there's a general sense, I don't feel safe around you, that is not allowed. And I think masculinity framed correctly is wonderful. I think being aggressive has its role in places. I think wanting to protect people has its place. I think being strong such that you can move to protection. I think we need to celebrate just so I can offend some of your listeners. I think we need to celebrate men's horniness. I think wanting to have sex turns you into a better man. It tells you to shower. It tells you to be kind. It tells you to make friends with women so they can help you understand women. It trains you to have perseverance to try and get through the much finer filter of women who are choosy. It teaches you how to endure rejection. It teaches you how to take chances. These are wonderful attributes that young men are giving up on. So I think masculinity, embracing it in an aspirational format and saying, we've been celebrating femininity as we should, but also celebrate masculinity. And also what I would call for is a renewal. I think we need to renew the alliance between Europe and America, renew the alliance between moderate left and moderate right. But most importantly, we need to renew the greatest alliance in history, and that is the alliance between men and women. And I think a mix of feminine and masculine energy is a wonderful combination that has literally built the world that we know.
[09:54]
Justin Webb
I wonder whether actually part of all of this is the daintiness about language and the walking on eggshells ness about language, which has been very much something from the progressive left, I suppose in the last 10 to 15 years in particular. So in a sense it's not just about men and women. This goes to a wider argument about the ability of people to have these conversations actually in the first place.
[10:21]
Scott Galloway
A great point, Justin. If you were to reverse engineer that single point of failure where a boy comes off the tracks and becomes an unproductive male, it's when he loses a male role model through death, disease or abandonment. The moment I was raised by a single immigrant mother, lived and died a secretary a lot of my life. But the reality is when my father left us at that moment, I became more likely as a boy to be incarcerated than graduate from college. What's interesting is that girls in single parent households have similar outcomes. Same rates of college attendance, same rates of of self harm. So despite being physically stronger, what the data shows is that boys are actually emotionally and intellectually much weaker than girls, much less resilient. But even saying that boys need men in their lives was triggering five years ago what women can't raise men. Sure they can again see above raised by a single mother. But the reality is boys need men in their lives. We couldn't even have an honest conversation even acknowledging a difference in the 95% of us who assign as binary. And by the way, that doesn't mean people in the middle don't deserve the exact same opportunities. It doesn't mean in any way women should be prohibited or not have the same opportunities that men have. What I'm saying is 95% of us are born with certain attributes that are easier for us to lean into than the other gender. Let's celebrate both those things and acknowledge that our society right now seems to be not helping young men, that young men are flailing and that is going to have all sorts of second order impacts on the well being of our society.
[11:57]
Justin Webb
Are you getting somewhere do you think? With the broad left I'll turn to Trump in a second, but with the left, do you feel that the argument is now playing out on your side or not?
[12:08]
Scott Galloway
The conversation has become a lot more productive in the last five years. Governor of California, Governor Newsom has sponsored programs for young men. Governor Moore of Maryland said that in his State of the State address this year that the focus of his administration was going to be on lifting up young men and boys. He could not have said that five years ago.
[12:30]
Justin Webb
That's interesting. And both of them potential actually, both of them actually presidential candidates in 28, aren't they? Or going for the nomination. And no question of both of those. That's interesting. So it's going to be there in the debates, in the primaries.
[12:44]
Scott Galloway
This is something people are feeling in their homes. You know, you get in a room of parents and you start talking about the problems between young men and young women and they just start nodding their heads. There's just such a stark difference. It's even biological. I don't know. Do you have kids, Justin?
[13:03]
Justin Webb
Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah.
[13:04]
Scott Galloway
If you have 15 year olds over this. My son had 15 year olds his class over. The boys are nice, but they're dopes. They can't look you in the eye. Some of the girls that come over at 15 could be the junior senators from Pennsylvania. They could be in parliament. Girls are just maturing faster in a world that values and I think there's some bias. K through 12, what do we ask kids to do? Be quiet, sit still, ask questions, look at the gross motor skills of a boy are better, but the oral skills and the dexterity of a girl is better. What do we ask kids to do? Push a pencil around, ask questions, articulate themselves, sit still. 70 to 80% of our primary school administrators and teachers are female. So basically education has been feminized. A boy in primary education is twice as likely to be suspended from school for the exact same behavior as a girl. So we've built in some biases we're not even cognizant of accidentally that I think really. And not recognizing they're biologically behind. Not recognizing the problem of single parent homes, which conservatives have been talking about for a while, but through a different lens. So there's just no arguing with the statistics here. But to your point, the conversation has become much more productive. And we also recognize, finally, I think that this is not a zero sum problem. Gay marriage didn't hurt. Heteronormative marriage, civil rights didn't hurt white people. Helping men and recognizing their problems will not, will not hurt women.
[14:35]
Justin Webb
And that argument is going to be felt right across the aisle in the States, isn't it? Because if you put Trump to an extent, to one side and he is going to be gone at some stage and there is going to be a discussion about where the right goes and there is obviously a lot of discussion on the right about masculinity. They're very interested in it. You think of the online right, you think of someone like Bronze Age pervert who a lot of Americast listeners will not have come across but is. You will know is a very, very presence in the online kind of right manosphere slash political place. And to what extent, I suppose, have they co opted all of the things that you've just been saying? In a way that it's going to be quite difficult actually to pull people back, to pull young men particularly back.
[15:23]
Scott Galloway
The manosphere starts off fine. Be fit, be action oriented, be economically viable. But then it comes off the tracks and it becomes about dominating women. It becomes about a propensity towards violence, demonizing immigrants. It just takes, it takes young men to the absolute worst place. And it's been such an unproductive part of helping young men because when people hear me advocating for men, they have a very understandable radar that goes up and says, here's another guy who's going to start blaming women while advocating for men. What he's really doing is talking about dominating women and sending them back. And I understand that gag reflex. And to a certain extent, as a white male of my age, I may not be the right spokesperson for this because people see me and I'm sort of wrong. Before I open my mouth, people immediately gag and go, you out yourself as a misogynist, an anti immigrant and as a racist when you start advocating for men. Because the people who are advocating for men for several years have a tendency to be people who have a crypto university or think that all you need to do is drive a Lambo and not let your girl go out because she should be supporting your life. So I think there needs to be a more aspirational vision of masculinity. And I think we just need better role models that say, okay, being masculine is wonderful, but it's about service. It's about surplus value. It's about celebrating the progress of women. It's about, it's about engaging at home. It's about being a great dad, a great partner. And you could also be strong and you can also be aggressive, but you are in the service of others. There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's violence, there's abuse of power, but masculinity, that's like, I don't believe there's toxic femininity. I think femininity is a wonderful thing and I think we need to move to some sort of. We need better spokespeople and better role models that help convince the nation and the world that masculinity is an aspirational, wonderful thing that helps move the world forward.
[17:34]
Justin Webb
Just saying there's no such thing as toxic masculinity. I think really would have got you canceled, and maybe borderline still would, certainly in universities in the States. I don't know whether you do commencement speeches still or whether you're allowed to, SCOTT But I mean, that is a deeply controversial view among a certain and very powerful group of people on the progressive left, isn't it? And I just wonder whether they're not going to let that go without a fight.
[18:03]
Scott Galloway
I don't want to sound my make myself sound too virtuous, but it's not easy for me to be canceled. I can be dragged and shamed, and it happens a lot because sometimes, quite frankly, I get it wrong sometimes, and I'm prone to, you know, I'm not immune to saying stupid things, but one of my role models is Sam Harris, and he says if you have economic security and people who love you unconditionally, and I have both those things, you have an obligation to speak out.
[18:25]
Justin Webb
SCOTT Can I widen the conversation just before we finish, to the context for all of this, which is where the US Goes after Donald Trump, and I was listening to you talking the other day to David Brooks of the New York Times, actually writes for the Atlantic now, doesn't he? So someone who's thought a lot, he's on the right, on the moderate right. He's thought a lot about where America goes ethically now. And it was a fascinating conversation because he's really quite optimistic, isn't he? Did he convince you?
[18:52]
Scott Galloway
I struggle with anger and depression, and so I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. So I consistently have to ask myself what could go right. But I do like to think that America is so dissatisfied with the way things are headed that they're going to make a change. Now, my fear is we swing too far to the left, and I think extremism on the left can be just as dangerous as extremism on the right. But if you look at the polls, it looks like America is ready for a fairly substantial change, which makes me hopeful.
[19:23]
Justin Webb
Yeah, David Brooks was suggesting that, I mean, he was using the example of the 50s and the 60s, and the 50s suddenly become the 60s, the 50s all uptight and all the rest of it and crew cuts, and then suddenly the 60s happen and nobody sees it coming. And he was making the point to you, wasn't he, that we could have the same thing. So after Trump, we could be something completely different. And it could very suddenly. But that point that you make is is such an important one, isn't it? Because when you look at some on the left, I was Just looking at the Luigi Mangioni trial, which has been getting going in New York, hasn't it, and some of the hate filled stuff that comes from the left just as much as it has come from the right. You, you do wonder about whether or not there is something in the post Trump politics that has really changed in a kind of poisonous way that is not just going to be able to be brushed off or cast aside.
[20:18]
Scott Galloway
Typically what happens when people are frustrated and angry, it's not that they attach to a political ideology, they just want change. So no one was going to vote for the person they saw as the incumbent. Vice President Harris. And I don't think, I think the same thing. One of the wonderful things about America is typically speaking whoever's the next president is much different than the one now. It's like when I see someone who's pregnant with their second child, I say, all I can tell you is it's going to be nothing like the first. And if you look at American elections, it's the same way. Usually we go for something different in our next election. I just hope it's not. If you look at world, you know, if you look at Europe, the communists on the far left were fighting for power versus the fascists on the far right. Now the far right won. But I think this type of dangerous, non plural, non democratic societies, I think it can just as easily come from the far left as the far right. And my biggest fear is that Trump or Vance continues this mantle of corruption and a lack of empathy and the coarsening of our discourse. But I also think there's a real threat that we move too far to the left. We're starting in the US to demonize success. And one of the reasons we've always had so many people aspire, both my parents are from the UK and the reason they got on a steamship and crawled across the Atlantic with £300 to their name was they wanted to go somewhere where they thought they could be successful. And I think that so many things in America right now in terms of an anti immigrant policy, corruption, lack of rule of law, but also on the far left, a demonization of success. I think all of these things add up to what I would call superpower suicide. So I just hope we can move back to an environment where we have moderates with common sense solutions that are pragmatists. And I also hope that we end up with a president that's not on our face every day that gives everyone 30 or 60 minutes back a day where they're just not Thinking about the President, so to speak.
[22:16]
Justin Webb
That then goes to the social media. I mentioned social media and it's so much part of the conversation now. And it's for another day for us. And you talk a lot about it. And plainly there are good things about the social media, but plenty of there are bad and we're all aware of bad ones now. It's not really a controversial issue, is it? Except to say that you have to wonder whether the kind of America that you want to see and that David Brooks was, was outlining to you as well, can exist where people are interacting with each other politically and in other ways as well. With algorithms designed to make them angry.
[22:56]
Scott Galloway
1945 to 1995, we thought the ultimate hook for attention was sex. Buy this watch, you'll be hot. Drink this beer, you'll have a six pack and have more random sexual encounters. And then the algorithms from Google found there's something even better than sex and that's rage. And when you put something out, Justin, you immediately go back to look at the comments. And if someone says something really off color or mean, it creates comments, which is another Nissan ad and another more shareholder value. So unfortunately, we have tied the economic well being, I would argue, of our economy to creating elevating incendiary content that divides us. So Americans no longer see Putin or Xi or income inequality as the enemy. They see their neighbor with a different political sign as the enemy. So social media creates a lot of positives, a lot of economic good. These companies create a lot of positives, but they also have a lot of externalities. And there's no regulatory body. Fossil fuels are a net positive, but we have emission standards. Pesticides are a net positive, but we have a Food and Drug Administration. I would argue Big Tech's a net positive, but there's absolutely no regulation. So if you want to say that MRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you can say it. And that content gets elevated beyond its organic reach because it upsets people. So we're creating an environment where we're more anxious, upset, don't like each other and feel that our enemy is our neighbor. It's literally tearing at the fabric of the West. And also it attacks the self esteem of young girls. It convinces young men to stay in their homes. Men ages 20 to 30 are spending less time outdoors and prison inmates. And the reason I initially got involved in this was I see myself in these young men. I had a lack of economic and romantic opportunities when I was this age. And if I'd had a false belief or a myth That I could have friendships on Discord and Reddit and make money on crypto trading crypto or stocks on Robinhood or Coinbase, and that I didn't need to get out and figure out a way to meet women because I had lifelike porn. 24 by 7, I could have easily been one of these men that is flailing. So I don't think men of our generation just realize what these young men are up against when the deepest pocketed companies with godlike technology are every day trying to sequester them for the most valuable thing in our lives and that is relationships. People are now turning online for advice, turning online to think they can make money. They're not going into work, they're not going into school, they're not taking chances to meet friends. They're not approaching 42% of men in America 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person. Think about that. And there's this notion that if you approach a woman you might get me too'd. Some of that is true, but mostly it's a cop out for young men to basically sequester to their basements and have what they think is going to be a friction free life which ends up, you know, which. Which renders them alone, obese and anxious by the time they're 30 without the skills to have a rewarding life.
[26:01]
Justin Webb
Final thought then. And I don't want it to be a trite one, but I mean, you set out a massive, a kind of civilizational level set of hurdles that have to be crossed. Are you still optimistic about the US should we be?
[26:17]
Scott Galloway
I am. Because if you look at history, we're a narcissistic species and we tend to think that the time we're in is either the best or the darkest. I think it's very easy to fall into the notion that this is the darkest moment in American history. And that might be true of the recent past, but at one point, 1% of the population who controlled the United States were slave owners. Not that long ago we were putting people in concentration camps because they were born in Japan. Even when their sons were serving in the European theater, we had governors, democratically elected governors, standing in front of schools and not letting in six year old black girls. We have faced really dark times and every time our nation has come back stronger, recognizing that we need to put in place standards and norms and laws such that we can be a stronger democracy. So that's the optimist view. That's the one I'm holding to. And I know you Got a big listenership. What I would say to the UK and Europe is don't give up on us. I think the alliance between America and the US is probably the strongest alliance, economic and geopolitical alliance. I think there's a lot of Americans that not only miss Europeans, I think there's a lot of Europeans that miss the old America. And I think there's a lot of us committed to making America America again.
[27:31]
Justin Webb
Scott Galloway, such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for sparing us the time. Thanks.
[27:37]
Scott Galloway
Thank you, Justin.
[27:45]
Justin Webb
Right, as promised, Marianna joins me now. And we're going to have a little discussion, I suppose, about some of the themes that Scott Galloway goes on about Mariana, but more widely as well. It's such an important topic, isn't it? And it's a topic from your world, too. Men, the manosphere.
[28:02]
Mariana
Yeah, exactly. And I think that the conversation that you had touched on so many of the issues, particularly around the way that the world I investigate social media could be impacting men, male voters in particular, and especially in the U.S. but I think that I thought was really interesting, the bit of the discussion you were having about outrage. The problem with the manosphere is that it centers around anger and frustration and often and a kind of feeling of injustice rather than necessarily solutions and positives. And how do we actually improve the situation, Often, for example, pointing to women as part of the problem rather than actually, you know, dealing with voters, particularly younger men who feel like they are being underestimated or who for whom the kind of systems no longer support and are accommodating doesn't mean it has to be at the expense of. Of women as well.
[28:54]
Justin Webb
Well, that's the point, isn't it? And it's not just underestimated, to be honest. I think the feeling is that a lot of young men in the US feel disparaged, disliked, even hated by women. And they now they've got into this trap of sending that hatred back in the other direction. And that's the thing that got Scott involved. And we should say Scott Galloway. I mean, he's a kind of. For me, he's like interviewing Taylor Swift would be for Sarah. Because I listen to a lot of Scott Galloway. I certainly don't agree with everything he says or endorse everything he says on a wide range of topics. And he's someone who is a very powerful figure, I think it's fair to say, in the way that figures now can be powerful, who aren't part of the political setup in the US but have These big platforms where they can really have an influence. And he is a supporter of the Democrats. He wants Democrats to do well. He doesn't think much of Donald Trump but he has got this knowledge as well of the manosphere that you're talking about.
[29:57]
Mariana
When I was doing the documentary I did for BBC2 Inside the Rager Machine, speaking to different insiders from the companies. I also spoke to people impacted by social media and one was, one was a young man who had had this very thing happen to him. Basically he was having a bit of a rubbish time and he felt like he was struggling to make friends. He was kind of struggling romantically. He wasn't loving school and once he started getting pushed this sort of content on his feed, it was, it was so alluring and appealing and it made him feel powerful and, and kind of have some agency in his life. But actually ultimately he realized that it was, it was making him unhappy. And you can imagine that the Democrats looking ahead to the next election would think there is a place in the market for the kind of not cringy, like be a good man, that kind of thing, but for the like. Actually I don't want to be in the manosphere. Like I don't want to be part of this kind of group. But I also want to feel like, you know, my voice is heard and that it counts. I want to feel respected and understood and I want to feel kind of, you know, I want everyone to feel equal. Like I think there's. I remember speaking about this before when it came to Tim Walls who was running as for vice president alongside Kamala Harris and that it felt like they really missed a trick, that they could have used him. He was very active in like school football and you know, college football and that kind of thing. They could have used him to, to actually speak to men who are just kind of like quite reasonable and normal which is. Which is the majority of people really like we're talking about the outrage algorithmic people. But most people, you'd hope, you know, want the same things.
[31:22]
Justin Webb
Ultimately it didn't work with him though, did it? There was something.
[31:25]
Mariana
No, no. Well, they didn't even use him in that way. They didn't. They used him in a kind of like pro progressive ideas. Yeah. And it didn't work.
[31:33]
Justin Webb
I. Because he tried to straddle a load of things. And this I think goes to. That's a really interesting that you bring that out because I think one of the things that I think is true is yes, you don't want to have some Sort of ludicrously kind of highfalutin conversation about what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman. But actually what it means to be a citizen is something that Americans often feel they don't properly think about now. And one of the things that it would mean to be a citizen in a better functioning America is the ability to make moral judgments and about each other and stand by them but not fall out.
[32:15]
Mariana
I actually think there's a huge appetite for sort of positive, constructive discourse. It just doesn't feel like people often have the four forums or fora in which they can do that anymore. And so, you know, they, they are turning to social media because that has just become sort of part and parcel, particularly younger people of their lives. And actually there's just not a place for sort of like nuanced, interesting discussion on these kinds of. And the problem is, is a lot of the content that they consume. Let's think about podcasts for example, or social media influencers succeeds by exploiting outrage. And I think, and it's a really important thing that like, and I know this from speaking to insiders at the social media companies. Social media platforms are ultimately built obviously, you know, to maximize engagement. And in order to do that, the in and out groups thing is really important, which is like us and them, it's very, very effective at kind of driving engagement. And gender is one of the perfect fault lines of which to construct that.
[33:13]
Justin Webb
Weirdly, we have this conversation on the day or hours after the DNC Democratic National Committee is forced into publishing their autopsy basically of the 2024 campaign, the one that Kamala Harris fought and lost, which had been long kept secret. I mean, they genuinely didn't intend to publish it. They've kind of been forced into publishing bits of it. And it goes really to this subject actually, because it very much reintroduces us to the idea of how much can the Democrats then say, for instance, they want to accept what Scott Galloway says and they want to attract men back into the fold to the extent that they've been lost, how much is the party in the future going to be in the business of doing that and how much in the party is in the business of just appealing to the core groups of people, which is particularly young and unmarried, well educated women. So the DNC have had this autopsy they published. I mean, it's an absolute mess. The executive summary doesn't have anything in it, et cetera. But I mean, one of the core bits of it seems to be we need to appeal to everyone, everywhere. So in the midterms, but more importantly for the presidential election, do the parties managed to find a way of getting into what we used to call the center ground, if it still exists at all, or actually because of the way that people communicate? Never mind. I agree with you, those people are there. But if you can't do your political communication in a way that reaches them, then the really important thing is to get out the people you can depend on to vote for you. And of course, in Donald Trump's case, that meant people, many of whom had never voted before. And I. I do think that the challenge for the idea that everything kind of reverts to the mean in 2028 is that actually this, the whole setup has changed so profoundly.
[35:14]
Mariana
Yeah.
[35:14]
Justin Webb
Been changed so profoundly that maybe that's not so easy.
[35:18]
Mariana
Yeah. And that's where, you know, having a system that is two parties in that way, it feels quite incompatible with a world where people are increasingly sort of like, siloed in certainly more than two groups. And so the way that parties kind of seek to appeal to a broader audience just feels much more, much more difficult, I guess, than it. Than it used to be. Although maybe, ultimately, as we've chatted about, it actually just boils down to, who do you think is going to make you feel sort of wealthier and happier? And. And actually all of these other issues become besides the point.
[35:50]
Justin Webb
Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe, you know, it's inflation that's going to kill Donald Trump in the midterms, not anything around inflation that killed. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it wasn't owner's inflation, really, that killed Joe Biden, although his ancientness, if that's a word, was also probably part of that. But, yeah, no, I think it's a really important point that actually, for most people, none of this stuff really makes any sense at all, except that just to go back to what Scott Galloway was saying, there is a sort of haunting oddness about men and women voting very differently. And it just feels somehow odd, doesn't it, in a modern polity that you have that sex difference in voting? And it feels. I don't know, it just feels unstable somehow, and unpleasant.
[36:45]
Mariana
I really don't think we can talk about it enough, the impact of the algorithms, because as well, the social media companies always try to argue that the algorithms are actually not gendered. So they try to say, oh, it's not about gender, we don't push people stuff on the basis of gender. But yet loads of the insiders have told me from the companies, all of the things that indicate, you know, how they build a profile of a user to push them stuff ultimately makes it very clear usually what someone's gender will be. And I think that does account for quite a lot of what we're seeing in terms of the real difference in politics kind of all around the world, really, between, between women and men.
[37:19]
Justin Webb
Okay. The algorithms will never push us apart.
[37:22]
Mariana
Mariana. Yeah, actually that's quite remarkable sometimes.
[37:25]
Justin Webb
Nice to talk to you. That's it for now. Bye bye bye. Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We listen, love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time. Next time. Bye.
[38:25]
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Summary7 min read

Americast – "The Political Fight for American Men"

Date: May 25, 2026
Host: Justin Webb, Mariana Spring
Guest: Scott Galloway

Episode Overview

This episode of Americast dives into the increasingly pivotal role of men—especially young men—in American politics and culture. Host Justin Webb interviews Scott Galloway, noted author, professor, and cultural commentator, about his provocative views regarding modern masculinity, the failures of both political parties to communicate with or support young men, and the impact of social media in shaping male identity and political opinion. After the interview, Mariana Spring joins Justin to discuss Galloway's points, algorithmic outrage, and the difficulties political parties face in reaching male voters in today's divided environment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Political Battleground for Men (00:35–03:39)

Webb introduces the issue: both US political parties are struggling to address the needs and aspirations of men, especially young men.
- The right has made gains with young men, while the left is conflicted and may even alienate them.
Scott Galloway represents a left-leaning perspective that is sharply critical of how progressive politics treats men and masculinity.

2. Scott Galloway on What Both Parties Get Wrong (03:39–07:16)

Galloway argues Trump’s success owes much to struggling young men drawn to his version of masculinity and the “manosphere.”
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 03:39):
  "Donald Trump is president of the United States because of struggling young men, and that is to the far right's credit. They saw the problem first."
He criticizes the right for connecting masculinity to cruelty and the left for ignoring the specific struggles of young men:
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 04:38):
  "[At the DNC]...it was a parade of special interest groups...not one mention of the group that's fallen furthest, fastest, and that is young men."
The left’s response, he says, is to expect young men to be more like women, which he sees as misguided.

3. The "Payback" Thesis & Social Attitudes (05:07–07:16)

Due to historical privilege, there’s a sense that young men can be ‘left behind’ as a form of societal payback, overlooking current consequences for all.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 05:51):
  "It's payback. But...who wants more viable, economically, emotionally viable young men? Women."
Galloway notes a correlation between disenfranchised young men and openness to nationalist, right-wing movements.

4. Reframing Masculinity and Feminine/Masculine Roles (07:16–09:53)

Masculinity and femininity are social constructs, both containing valuable traits that should be celebrated—not pitted against each other.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 07:51):
  "Masculinity and femininity are social constructs...I think masculinity framed correctly is wonderful...being strong, wanting to protect, being aggressive has its role."
- He provocatively suggests celebrating men's sexuality as a positive driver of socialization, perseverance, and growth.

5. The Importance of Language and Open Dialogue (09:53–11:56)

Progressives' reluctance to openly discuss gender differences and male struggles worsens the crisis.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 10:21):
  "If you were to reverse engineer that single point of failure...it's when [a boy] loses a male role model."
Noting that boys are often less resilient than girls, he emphasizes the need to acknowledge and openly discuss these differences without stigmatization.

6. Shifting Attitudes within the Left (11:56–14:35)

Recent years have seen more productive conversations on the left, with Democratic figures like Governors Newsom (CA) and Moore (MD) taking steps to address male underachievement.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 12:07):
  "The conversation has become a lot more productive in the last five years."

7. The Role of Education & Institutional Bias (13:04–14:35)

Galloway discusses how education systems—mostly administered by women and favoring more “feminine” behaviors—often disadvantage boys, contributing to their struggles.

8. The Rise (and Danger) of the Manosphere (14:35–17:33)

Discusses how online "manosphere" figures initial messages around self-betterment devolve into resentment, misogyny, and xenophobia.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 15:23):
  "The manosphere starts off fine...But then it comes off the tracks and it becomes about dominating women."
Argues for positive male role models focused on service, partnership, and community rather than dominance.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 17:21): "We need better spokespeople...that help convince...that masculinity is an aspirational, wonderful thing..."

9. No Such Thing as ‘Toxic Masculinity’ (17:33–18:24)

Galloway rejects the concept, equating talk of "toxic masculinity" to a misunderstanding of its positive potential.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 17:33): "There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's violence, there's abuse of power, but masculinity...is a wonderful thing."

10. Post-Trump America: New Dangers and Hopes (18:24–22:16)

The future after Trump may swing too far left or right, both dangerous in different ways.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 18:52): "My fear is we swing too far to the left, and I think extremism on the left can be just as dangerous as extremism on the right."
Advocates for moderation, pragmatism, and a less divisive public square.

11. Social Media: Rage, Alienation & the Algorithm (22:16–26:00)

Social media algorithms now thrive not on sex appeal, but on provocation and anger, dividing the country and isolating young men in particular.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 22:55): "The algorithms from Google found there's something even better than sex and that's rage."
- Men are especially vulnerable to being isolated in online worlds:
  "Men ages 20 to 30 are spending less time outdoors than prison inmates." (25:17)

12. Concluding Optimism & A Call to Allies (26:00–27:36)

Despite these challenges, Galloway remains optimistic, pointing to the US’s history of bouncing back from crisis.
- Quote (Scott Galloway, 26:16): "Every time our nation has come back stronger...don't give up on us."
- He appeals directly to UK and European listeners about the enduring strength of transatlantic alliances.

Panel Discussion: Justin Webb & Mariana Spring (27:44–37:21)

The Algorithm and Gendered Outrage

Mariana agrees the "manosphere" and outrage content have real impacts on young male identity—frustration and alienation too often become anger directed at women.
- Quote (Mariana, 28:01): "The problem with the manosphere is that it centers around anger...often pointing to women as part of the problem."
Many young men feel disparaged—"disliked, even hated by women"—and reciprocate that feeling online.

Political Communication and the Missed Opportunity

The Democrats, Mariana notes, often fail to authentically engage with men (e.g., not leveraging relatable male voices in campaigns).
Justin and Mariana explore if the parties can (or will) make room for a nuanced center in today’s landscape, or if they're trapped appealing only to their most dependable bases, as urged by campaign "autopsies."

The Center Cannot Hold?

Both agree algorithmic polarization, siloing, and a two-party system collide to make broad appeals more difficult—even if the public wants pragmatic, positive debate.

Gender Gaps, Instability, and Platform Bias

Justin finds the sharp, persistent gender gap in voting “unstable somehow, and unpleasant.”
Mariana suggests social media algorithms, regardless of company claims, do profile based on gender, deepening divides.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Scott Galloway (07:51):
"I think being aggressive has its role in places...I think we need to celebrate just so I can offend some of your listeners. I think we need to celebrate men's horniness."
Scott Galloway (15:23):
"The manosphere starts off fine...be fit, be action oriented...But then it comes off the tracks and it becomes about dominating women."
Scott Galloway (17:33):
"There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's violence, there's abuse of power, but masculinity...is a wonderful thing..."
Scott Galloway (25:17):
"Men ages 20 to 30 are spending less time outdoors than prison inmates."
Mariana Spring (33:13):
"Social media platforms are ultimately built...to maximize engagement. The in and out group thing is really important...gender is one of the perfect fault lines."

Key Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |-----------------------------------------------------|-----------| | Introduction, framing the context | 00:35–03:39 | | Galloway’s critique of left/right approaches | 03:39–07:16 | | Discussion of masculinity, femininity, and gender | 07:16–09:53 | | Language and open conversation | 09:53–11:56 | | Shifts among Democrats | 11:56–14:35 | | Education and systemic biases | 13:04–14:35 | | Critique of the manosphere | 14:35–17:33 | | 'Toxic masculinity' debate | 17:33–18:24 | | America post-Trump | 18:24–22:16 | | Social media, algorithms, and youth | 22:16–26:00 | | Optimism and closing thoughts | 26:00–27:36 | | Panel: Mariana and Justin debrief | 27:44–37:21 |

Summary & Takeaways

The cultural and political fate of American men, particularly young men, is deeply contested and increasingly critical to electoral outcomes.
Both political parties suffer from blind spots: the right’s embrace of “coarseness,” the left’s neglect or disparagement of masculinity.
Online "manosphere" culture often traps young men in cycles of resentment and alienation, and the left risks further losses unless it responds constructively.
Education, family structure, and social media algorithms all play powerful roles in shaping modern male identity.
There are signs of positive change in political discourse, but the influence of outrage-driven algorithms and persistent gender divides pose major challenges.
Ultimately, better male role models, cross-gender alliances, and pragmatic political approaches—plus a recognition of the non-zero-sum nature of social progress—are offered as solutions.
Galloway and the Americast team end on cautiously optimistic notes: America’s long history of recovery, and the hope for future coalitions that transcend today's divides.

Loading summary

Transcript58 lines

[00:00]
Justin Webb
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
[00:06]
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[00:36]
Justin Webb
one of the great battlegrounds in modern American politics and modern American culture is men. What to do about them, how to attract them politically, how to treat them culturally. On the right, they're pretty sure they've done very well with men. The Trump campaign did well. The Republicans more generally do well, particularly young men who've been attracted to the right wing cause. On the left, they're more conflicted. There are plenty of left wing people who do not approve of what they regard as masculinity. But there is also a sense on the left that something has to be done to attract men back to the left, back to the Democratic Party. I've been talking to one person who has very strong views on modern American masculinity. He's not someone from the right, he's very much someone from the left, but he's someone who believes that the left needs to change.
[01:31]
Mariana
And.
[01:31]
Justin Webb
And we had a conversation as well about where America is going next. The character of America, which is so vital and in a sense, so unpolitical, it goes to what the place should be in the post Trump era. Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.
[01:48]
Advertisement Voice
AmericasT from BBC News.
[01:51]
Justin Webb
You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money.
[01:56]
Scott Galloway
We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.
[02:00]
Mariana
This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it.
[02:04]
Scott Galloway
This guy has Trump derangement syndrome. I have four words for you.
[02:09]
Justin Webb
Turn the volume up. Hello, it's Justin talking to you from the City of Bath and I'm going to be joined in a second by Mariana. And we're bringing you something we've done instead of Americansus because it's a bank holiday in Britain. So we've done an interview or I've done an interview with the author Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway, who is not just an author, actually, he's much more than that. He's a podcaster. He's an influencer in a way, particularly in the world of financial affairs, but actually much more widely as well. He's a kind of cultural commentator and he wrote this book called Notes on Being a Man. And one of the things he's really passionate about is changing the way, particularly the American left regards men and manhood. And he thinks they're making big mistakes about it and it needs to change. So I've done this interview with Scott, and we're going to bring it to you now. And then Marianna and I are going to discuss what he says, because what he says is controversial, and it's certainly controversial within the United States. But I think it's fair to say as well that it's having an increasing influence on people who are affected by it and wonder about it and wonder whether the Democratic Party needs to do something about it. So here we are. Without further ado, Scott Galloway talking to me. Enjoy it. Scott, you're not a Trump supporter. In fact, anything but. But you are someone who is critical of the left, aren't you? You think the left are getting this wrong?
[03:39]
Scott Galloway
Well, I think Donald Trump is president of the United States because of struggling young men, and that is to the far right's credit. They saw the problem first. The issue is they see that the remedy is to take women and nonwhites back to the 50s, which is not helpful. But look at Donald Trump. He flew right into the manosphere. Crypto rockets, World Wrestling Federation, being somewhat coarse and cruel, if you will, which unfortunately, people conflate, or some men conflate with masculinity. Whereas on the left, I went to the Democratic National Committee or convention, it was a parade of special interest groups articulating the very real issues they still face, but not one mention of the group that's fallen furthest, fastest, and that is young men. And so I don't think either group is, quite frankly, helping or addressing the issue. The far right conflates masculinity with coarseness and cruelty. And the far left, basically, their answer for young men is just acting more like, you know, you should act more like a woman, which I don't think is the answer either.
[04:39]
Justin Webb
It's interesting you mentioned the convention. I was there as well, up in Chicago, and you're absolutely right. And there were loads of influences there. And the one thing that, that definitely would not have been. I mean, you would have been committing a real kind of social faux pas if you'd suddenly said, what about the young men? Or particularly, what about the young white men? Why, though? What is it that prevents the Democrats seeing what you've been telling them?
[05:07]
Scott Galloway
Well, I think there's a natural gag reflex, because unfortunately, well, one, if you look at America from 1945 to 2000, we registered a third of the world's economic growth with 5% of the population. So we had six times the prosperity of the rest of the world. And then within that six acts of prosperity, about a third of the population that was white, heterosexual, and male registered the majority of the spoils. So you could argue that being born as I was in the 60s in California, a white, heterosexual male, that I had 15 to 20 times the prosperity that I had earned. And so I think there is a natural response that, okay, you've had a 3,000 a year head start. If young men now are having a little bit of a difficult time, maybe that's okay.
[05:50]
Justin Webb
It's payback time.
[05:51]
Scott Galloway
It's payback. But what I think people are coming to the realization is that, you know, who wants more viable, economically, emotionally viable young men, women. It's also hurting birth rates, it's hurting crime. And then what happens is when you have young men that don't feel seen, they're very receptive to sort of a nationalist Blame women, blame immigrants for your economic problems, blame women for your. For your romantic problems. And it's not your fault. The enemy's within. And I see you. And if you look at why President Trump got elected, if you look at the three groups that pivoted hardest from blue to red from 2020 to 2024, it was one, Latinos, which is hard to categorize into a single group, two, young men, and three, the most interesting demographic that went broke for Trump or went way more Trump is women aged 45 to 64. And my thesis, Justin, is that's their mothers. And there's still a lot of women in America who will vote for who they perceive as best in the best interest of their husbands and their sons. And if your son is in the basement playing video games and vaping, you don't care about territorial sovereignty in Ukraine or transgender rights. You just want change. So I would argue that the darkest moments in history where we've turned to very, very frightening nationalists that cause a lot of chaos in the world, there's always one static element, and that is a large cohort of young men with a lack of economic or romantic opportunities.
[07:16]
Justin Webb
You said earlier that one of the things the Democrats were getting wrong is they're just wanting men to be more like women. I mean, why not? What are they getting wrong in wanting that? Because I imagine there are quite a lot of women listening who say, well, yeah, it wouldn't be a bad thing, actually, but more femininity. But More embracing of all of that would be a good thing. You know, you said you don't want to go back to the 1950s, but is there not a risk that this becomes a kind of 1950s conversation where there are kind of sex differences or gender differences that we pander to, but actually in a way just in our minds?
[07:52]
Scott Galloway
To your point, masculinity and femininity are social constructs. They're empty vessels we get to fill. And I think that femininity is a wonderful attribute. And by the way, these things aren't sequestered to people born as males or females. I think a lot of men demonstrate wonderful feminine attributes. I think a lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculine attributes. But we've been celebrating femininity as we should, nurturing, more thoughtful, better eq. If I say women likely make better doctors, there's more in medical school, they're better students, they have better bedside manner. People clap their hands. But if I say on average, men oftentimes make better entrepreneurs or combat soldiers because they're more risk aggressive, there's a general sense, I don't feel safe around you, that is not allowed. And I think masculinity framed correctly is wonderful. I think being aggressive has its role in places. I think wanting to protect people has its place. I think being strong such that you can move to protection. I think we need to celebrate just so I can offend some of your listeners. I think we need to celebrate men's horniness. I think wanting to have sex turns you into a better man. It tells you to shower. It tells you to be kind. It tells you to make friends with women so they can help you understand women. It trains you to have perseverance to try and get through the much finer filter of women who are choosy. It teaches you how to endure rejection. It teaches you how to take chances. These are wonderful attributes that young men are giving up on. So I think masculinity, embracing it in an aspirational format and saying, we've been celebrating femininity as we should, but also celebrate masculinity. And also what I would call for is a renewal. I think we need to renew the alliance between Europe and America, renew the alliance between moderate left and moderate right. But most importantly, we need to renew the greatest alliance in history, and that is the alliance between men and women. And I think a mix of feminine and masculine energy is a wonderful combination that has literally built the world that we know.
[09:54]
Justin Webb
I wonder whether actually part of all of this is the daintiness about language and the walking on eggshells ness about language, which has been very much something from the progressive left, I suppose in the last 10 to 15 years in particular. So in a sense it's not just about men and women. This goes to a wider argument about the ability of people to have these conversations actually in the first place.
[10:21]
Scott Galloway
A great point, Justin. If you were to reverse engineer that single point of failure where a boy comes off the tracks and becomes an unproductive male, it's when he loses a male role model through death, disease or abandonment. The moment I was raised by a single immigrant mother, lived and died a secretary a lot of my life. But the reality is when my father left us at that moment, I became more likely as a boy to be incarcerated than graduate from college. What's interesting is that girls in single parent households have similar outcomes. Same rates of college attendance, same rates of of self harm. So despite being physically stronger, what the data shows is that boys are actually emotionally and intellectually much weaker than girls, much less resilient. But even saying that boys need men in their lives was triggering five years ago what women can't raise men. Sure they can again see above raised by a single mother. But the reality is boys need men in their lives. We couldn't even have an honest conversation even acknowledging a difference in the 95% of us who assign as binary. And by the way, that doesn't mean people in the middle don't deserve the exact same opportunities. It doesn't mean in any way women should be prohibited or not have the same opportunities that men have. What I'm saying is 95% of us are born with certain attributes that are easier for us to lean into than the other gender. Let's celebrate both those things and acknowledge that our society right now seems to be not helping young men, that young men are flailing and that is going to have all sorts of second order impacts on the well being of our society.
[11:57]
Justin Webb
Are you getting somewhere do you think? With the broad left I'll turn to Trump in a second, but with the left, do you feel that the argument is now playing out on your side or not?
[12:08]
Scott Galloway
The conversation has become a lot more productive in the last five years. Governor of California, Governor Newsom has sponsored programs for young men. Governor Moore of Maryland said that in his State of the State address this year that the focus of his administration was going to be on lifting up young men and boys. He could not have said that five years ago.
[12:30]
Justin Webb
That's interesting. And both of them potential actually, both of them actually presidential candidates in 28, aren't they? Or going for the nomination. And no question of both of those. That's interesting. So it's going to be there in the debates, in the primaries.
[12:44]
Scott Galloway
This is something people are feeling in their homes. You know, you get in a room of parents and you start talking about the problems between young men and young women and they just start nodding their heads. There's just such a stark difference. It's even biological. I don't know. Do you have kids, Justin?
[13:03]
Justin Webb
Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah.
[13:04]
Scott Galloway
If you have 15 year olds over this. My son had 15 year olds his class over. The boys are nice, but they're dopes. They can't look you in the eye. Some of the girls that come over at 15 could be the junior senators from Pennsylvania. They could be in parliament. Girls are just maturing faster in a world that values and I think there's some bias. K through 12, what do we ask kids to do? Be quiet, sit still, ask questions, look at the gross motor skills of a boy are better, but the oral skills and the dexterity of a girl is better. What do we ask kids to do? Push a pencil around, ask questions, articulate themselves, sit still. 70 to 80% of our primary school administrators and teachers are female. So basically education has been feminized. A boy in primary education is twice as likely to be suspended from school for the exact same behavior as a girl. So we've built in some biases we're not even cognizant of accidentally that I think really. And not recognizing they're biologically behind. Not recognizing the problem of single parent homes, which conservatives have been talking about for a while, but through a different lens. So there's just no arguing with the statistics here. But to your point, the conversation has become much more productive. And we also recognize, finally, I think that this is not a zero sum problem. Gay marriage didn't hurt. Heteronormative marriage, civil rights didn't hurt white people. Helping men and recognizing their problems will not, will not hurt women.
[14:35]
Justin Webb
And that argument is going to be felt right across the aisle in the States, isn't it? Because if you put Trump to an extent, to one side and he is going to be gone at some stage and there is going to be a discussion about where the right goes and there is obviously a lot of discussion on the right about masculinity. They're very interested in it. You think of the online right, you think of someone like Bronze Age pervert who a lot of Americast listeners will not have come across but is. You will know is a very, very presence in the online kind of right manosphere slash political place. And to what extent, I suppose, have they co opted all of the things that you've just been saying? In a way that it's going to be quite difficult actually to pull people back, to pull young men particularly back.
[15:23]
Scott Galloway
The manosphere starts off fine. Be fit, be action oriented, be economically viable. But then it comes off the tracks and it becomes about dominating women. It becomes about a propensity towards violence, demonizing immigrants. It just takes, it takes young men to the absolute worst place. And it's been such an unproductive part of helping young men because when people hear me advocating for men, they have a very understandable radar that goes up and says, here's another guy who's going to start blaming women while advocating for men. What he's really doing is talking about dominating women and sending them back. And I understand that gag reflex. And to a certain extent, as a white male of my age, I may not be the right spokesperson for this because people see me and I'm sort of wrong. Before I open my mouth, people immediately gag and go, you out yourself as a misogynist, an anti immigrant and as a racist when you start advocating for men. Because the people who are advocating for men for several years have a tendency to be people who have a crypto university or think that all you need to do is drive a Lambo and not let your girl go out because she should be supporting your life. So I think there needs to be a more aspirational vision of masculinity. And I think we just need better role models that say, okay, being masculine is wonderful, but it's about service. It's about surplus value. It's about celebrating the progress of women. It's about, it's about engaging at home. It's about being a great dad, a great partner. And you could also be strong and you can also be aggressive, but you are in the service of others. There's no such thing as toxic masculinity. There's violence, there's abuse of power, but masculinity, that's like, I don't believe there's toxic femininity. I think femininity is a wonderful thing and I think we need to move to some sort of. We need better spokespeople and better role models that help convince the nation and the world that masculinity is an aspirational, wonderful thing that helps move the world forward.
[17:34]
Justin Webb
Just saying there's no such thing as toxic masculinity. I think really would have got you canceled, and maybe borderline still would, certainly in universities in the States. I don't know whether you do commencement speeches still or whether you're allowed to, SCOTT But I mean, that is a deeply controversial view among a certain and very powerful group of people on the progressive left, isn't it? And I just wonder whether they're not going to let that go without a fight.
[18:03]
Scott Galloway
I don't want to sound my make myself sound too virtuous, but it's not easy for me to be canceled. I can be dragged and shamed, and it happens a lot because sometimes, quite frankly, I get it wrong sometimes, and I'm prone to, you know, I'm not immune to saying stupid things, but one of my role models is Sam Harris, and he says if you have economic security and people who love you unconditionally, and I have both those things, you have an obligation to speak out.
[18:25]
Justin Webb
SCOTT Can I widen the conversation just before we finish, to the context for all of this, which is where the US Goes after Donald Trump, and I was listening to you talking the other day to David Brooks of the New York Times, actually writes for the Atlantic now, doesn't he? So someone who's thought a lot, he's on the right, on the moderate right. He's thought a lot about where America goes ethically now. And it was a fascinating conversation because he's really quite optimistic, isn't he? Did he convince you?
[18:52]
Scott Galloway
I struggle with anger and depression, and so I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. So I consistently have to ask myself what could go right. But I do like to think that America is so dissatisfied with the way things are headed that they're going to make a change. Now, my fear is we swing too far to the left, and I think extremism on the left can be just as dangerous as extremism on the right. But if you look at the polls, it looks like America is ready for a fairly substantial change, which makes me hopeful.
[19:23]
Justin Webb
Yeah, David Brooks was suggesting that, I mean, he was using the example of the 50s and the 60s, and the 50s suddenly become the 60s, the 50s all uptight and all the rest of it and crew cuts, and then suddenly the 60s happen and nobody sees it coming. And he was making the point to you, wasn't he, that we could have the same thing. So after Trump, we could be something completely different. And it could very suddenly. But that point that you make is is such an important one, isn't it? Because when you look at some on the left, I was Just looking at the Luigi Mangioni trial, which has been getting going in New York, hasn't it, and some of the hate filled stuff that comes from the left just as much as it has come from the right. You, you do wonder about whether or not there is something in the post Trump politics that has really changed in a kind of poisonous way that is not just going to be able to be brushed off or cast aside.
[20:18]
Scott Galloway
Typically what happens when people are frustrated and angry, it's not that they attach to a political ideology, they just want change. So no one was going to vote for the person they saw as the incumbent. Vice President Harris. And I don't think, I think the same thing. One of the wonderful things about America is typically speaking whoever's the next president is much different than the one now. It's like when I see someone who's pregnant with their second child, I say, all I can tell you is it's going to be nothing like the first. And if you look at American elections, it's the same way. Usually we go for something different in our next election. I just hope it's not. If you look at world, you know, if you look at Europe, the communists on the far left were fighting for power versus the fascists on the far right. Now the far right won. But I think this type of dangerous, non plural, non democratic societies, I think it can just as easily come from the far left as the far right. And my biggest fear is that Trump or Vance continues this mantle of corruption and a lack of empathy and the coarsening of our discourse. But I also think there's a real threat that we move too far to the left. We're starting in the US to demonize success. And one of the reasons we've always had so many people aspire, both my parents are from the UK and the reason they got on a steamship and crawled across the Atlantic with £300 to their name was they wanted to go somewhere where they thought they could be successful. And I think that so many things in America right now in terms of an anti immigrant policy, corruption, lack of rule of law, but also on the far left, a demonization of success. I think all of these things add up to what I would call superpower suicide. So I just hope we can move back to an environment where we have moderates with common sense solutions that are pragmatists. And I also hope that we end up with a president that's not on our face every day that gives everyone 30 or 60 minutes back a day where they're just not Thinking about the President, so to speak.
[22:16]
Justin Webb
That then goes to the social media. I mentioned social media and it's so much part of the conversation now. And it's for another day for us. And you talk a lot about it. And plainly there are good things about the social media, but plenty of there are bad and we're all aware of bad ones now. It's not really a controversial issue, is it? Except to say that you have to wonder whether the kind of America that you want to see and that David Brooks was, was outlining to you as well, can exist where people are interacting with each other politically and in other ways as well. With algorithms designed to make them angry.
[22:56]
Scott Galloway
1945 to 1995, we thought the ultimate hook for attention was sex. Buy this watch, you'll be hot. Drink this beer, you'll have a six pack and have more random sexual encounters. And then the algorithms from Google found there's something even better than sex and that's rage. And when you put something out, Justin, you immediately go back to look at the comments. And if someone says something really off color or mean, it creates comments, which is another Nissan ad and another more shareholder value. So unfortunately, we have tied the economic well being, I would argue, of our economy to creating elevating incendiary content that divides us. So Americans no longer see Putin or Xi or income inequality as the enemy. They see their neighbor with a different political sign as the enemy. So social media creates a lot of positives, a lot of economic good. These companies create a lot of positives, but they also have a lot of externalities. And there's no regulatory body. Fossil fuels are a net positive, but we have emission standards. Pesticides are a net positive, but we have a Food and Drug Administration. I would argue Big Tech's a net positive, but there's absolutely no regulation. So if you want to say that MRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you can say it. And that content gets elevated beyond its organic reach because it upsets people. So we're creating an environment where we're more anxious, upset, don't like each other and feel that our enemy is our neighbor. It's literally tearing at the fabric of the West. And also it attacks the self esteem of young girls. It convinces young men to stay in their homes. Men ages 20 to 30 are spending less time outdoors and prison inmates. And the reason I initially got involved in this was I see myself in these young men. I had a lack of economic and romantic opportunities when I was this age. And if I'd had a false belief or a myth That I could have friendships on Discord and Reddit and make money on crypto trading crypto or stocks on Robinhood or Coinbase, and that I didn't need to get out and figure out a way to meet women because I had lifelike porn. 24 by 7, I could have easily been one of these men that is flailing. So I don't think men of our generation just realize what these young men are up against when the deepest pocketed companies with godlike technology are every day trying to sequester them for the most valuable thing in our lives and that is relationships. People are now turning online for advice, turning online to think they can make money. They're not going into work, they're not going into school, they're not taking chances to meet friends. They're not approaching 42% of men in America 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person. Think about that. And there's this notion that if you approach a woman you might get me too'd. Some of that is true, but mostly it's a cop out for young men to basically sequester to their basements and have what they think is going to be a friction free life which ends up, you know, which. Which renders them alone, obese and anxious by the time they're 30 without the skills to have a rewarding life.
[26:01]
Justin Webb
Final thought then. And I don't want it to be a trite one, but I mean, you set out a massive, a kind of civilizational level set of hurdles that have to be crossed. Are you still optimistic about the US should we be?
[26:17]
Scott Galloway
I am. Because if you look at history, we're a narcissistic species and we tend to think that the time we're in is either the best or the darkest. I think it's very easy to fall into the notion that this is the darkest moment in American history. And that might be true of the recent past, but at one point, 1% of the population who controlled the United States were slave owners. Not that long ago we were putting people in concentration camps because they were born in Japan. Even when their sons were serving in the European theater, we had governors, democratically elected governors, standing in front of schools and not letting in six year old black girls. We have faced really dark times and every time our nation has come back stronger, recognizing that we need to put in place standards and norms and laws such that we can be a stronger democracy. So that's the optimist view. That's the one I'm holding to. And I know you Got a big listenership. What I would say to the UK and Europe is don't give up on us. I think the alliance between America and the US is probably the strongest alliance, economic and geopolitical alliance. I think there's a lot of Americans that not only miss Europeans, I think there's a lot of Europeans that miss the old America. And I think there's a lot of us committed to making America America again.
[27:31]
Justin Webb
Scott Galloway, such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for sparing us the time. Thanks.
[27:37]
Scott Galloway
Thank you, Justin.
[27:45]
Justin Webb
Right, as promised, Marianna joins me now. And we're going to have a little discussion, I suppose, about some of the themes that Scott Galloway goes on about Mariana, but more widely as well. It's such an important topic, isn't it? And it's a topic from your world, too. Men, the manosphere.
[28:02]
Mariana
Yeah, exactly. And I think that the conversation that you had touched on so many of the issues, particularly around the way that the world I investigate social media could be impacting men, male voters in particular, and especially in the U.S. but I think that I thought was really interesting, the bit of the discussion you were having about outrage. The problem with the manosphere is that it centers around anger and frustration and often and a kind of feeling of injustice rather than necessarily solutions and positives. And how do we actually improve the situation, Often, for example, pointing to women as part of the problem rather than actually, you know, dealing with voters, particularly younger men who feel like they are being underestimated or who for whom the kind of systems no longer support and are accommodating doesn't mean it has to be at the expense of. Of women as well.
[28:54]
Justin Webb
Well, that's the point, isn't it? And it's not just underestimated, to be honest. I think the feeling is that a lot of young men in the US feel disparaged, disliked, even hated by women. And they now they've got into this trap of sending that hatred back in the other direction. And that's the thing that got Scott involved. And we should say Scott Galloway. I mean, he's a kind of. For me, he's like interviewing Taylor Swift would be for Sarah. Because I listen to a lot of Scott Galloway. I certainly don't agree with everything he says or endorse everything he says on a wide range of topics. And he's someone who is a very powerful figure, I think it's fair to say, in the way that figures now can be powerful, who aren't part of the political setup in the US but have These big platforms where they can really have an influence. And he is a supporter of the Democrats. He wants Democrats to do well. He doesn't think much of Donald Trump but he has got this knowledge as well of the manosphere that you're talking about.
[29:57]
Mariana
When I was doing the documentary I did for BBC2 Inside the Rager Machine, speaking to different insiders from the companies. I also spoke to people impacted by social media and one was, one was a young man who had had this very thing happen to him. Basically he was having a bit of a rubbish time and he felt like he was struggling to make friends. He was kind of struggling romantically. He wasn't loving school and once he started getting pushed this sort of content on his feed, it was, it was so alluring and appealing and it made him feel powerful and, and kind of have some agency in his life. But actually ultimately he realized that it was, it was making him unhappy. And you can imagine that the Democrats looking ahead to the next election would think there is a place in the market for the kind of not cringy, like be a good man, that kind of thing, but for the like. Actually I don't want to be in the manosphere. Like I don't want to be part of this kind of group. But I also want to feel like, you know, my voice is heard and that it counts. I want to feel respected and understood and I want to feel kind of, you know, I want everyone to feel equal. Like I think there's. I remember speaking about this before when it came to Tim Walls who was running as for vice president alongside Kamala Harris and that it felt like they really missed a trick, that they could have used him. He was very active in like school football and you know, college football and that kind of thing. They could have used him to, to actually speak to men who are just kind of like quite reasonable and normal which is. Which is the majority of people really like we're talking about the outrage algorithmic people. But most people, you'd hope, you know, want the same things.
[31:22]
Justin Webb
Ultimately it didn't work with him though, did it? There was something.
[31:25]
Mariana
No, no. Well, they didn't even use him in that way. They didn't. They used him in a kind of like pro progressive ideas. Yeah. And it didn't work.
[31:33]
Justin Webb
I. Because he tried to straddle a load of things. And this I think goes to. That's a really interesting that you bring that out because I think one of the things that I think is true is yes, you don't want to have some Sort of ludicrously kind of highfalutin conversation about what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman. But actually what it means to be a citizen is something that Americans often feel they don't properly think about now. And one of the things that it would mean to be a citizen in a better functioning America is the ability to make moral judgments and about each other and stand by them but not fall out.
[32:15]
Mariana
I actually think there's a huge appetite for sort of positive, constructive discourse. It just doesn't feel like people often have the four forums or fora in which they can do that anymore. And so, you know, they, they are turning to social media because that has just become sort of part and parcel, particularly younger people of their lives. And actually there's just not a place for sort of like nuanced, interesting discussion on these kinds of. And the problem is, is a lot of the content that they consume. Let's think about podcasts for example, or social media influencers succeeds by exploiting outrage. And I think, and it's a really important thing that like, and I know this from speaking to insiders at the social media companies. Social media platforms are ultimately built obviously, you know, to maximize engagement. And in order to do that, the in and out groups thing is really important, which is like us and them, it's very, very effective at kind of driving engagement. And gender is one of the perfect fault lines of which to construct that.
[33:13]
Justin Webb
Weirdly, we have this conversation on the day or hours after the DNC Democratic National Committee is forced into publishing their autopsy basically of the 2024 campaign, the one that Kamala Harris fought and lost, which had been long kept secret. I mean, they genuinely didn't intend to publish it. They've kind of been forced into publishing bits of it. And it goes really to this subject actually, because it very much reintroduces us to the idea of how much can the Democrats then say, for instance, they want to accept what Scott Galloway says and they want to attract men back into the fold to the extent that they've been lost, how much is the party in the future going to be in the business of doing that and how much in the party is in the business of just appealing to the core groups of people, which is particularly young and unmarried, well educated women. So the DNC have had this autopsy they published. I mean, it's an absolute mess. The executive summary doesn't have anything in it, et cetera. But I mean, one of the core bits of it seems to be we need to appeal to everyone, everywhere. So in the midterms, but more importantly for the presidential election, do the parties managed to find a way of getting into what we used to call the center ground, if it still exists at all, or actually because of the way that people communicate? Never mind. I agree with you, those people are there. But if you can't do your political communication in a way that reaches them, then the really important thing is to get out the people you can depend on to vote for you. And of course, in Donald Trump's case, that meant people, many of whom had never voted before. And I. I do think that the challenge for the idea that everything kind of reverts to the mean in 2028 is that actually this, the whole setup has changed so profoundly.
[35:14]
Mariana
Yeah.
[35:14]
Justin Webb
Been changed so profoundly that maybe that's not so easy.
[35:18]
Mariana
Yeah. And that's where, you know, having a system that is two parties in that way, it feels quite incompatible with a world where people are increasingly sort of like, siloed in certainly more than two groups. And so the way that parties kind of seek to appeal to a broader audience just feels much more, much more difficult, I guess, than it. Than it used to be. Although maybe, ultimately, as we've chatted about, it actually just boils down to, who do you think is going to make you feel sort of wealthier and happier? And. And actually all of these other issues become besides the point.
[35:50]
Justin Webb
Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe, you know, it's inflation that's going to kill Donald Trump in the midterms, not anything around inflation that killed. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it wasn't owner's inflation, really, that killed Joe Biden, although his ancientness, if that's a word, was also probably part of that. But, yeah, no, I think it's a really important point that actually, for most people, none of this stuff really makes any sense at all, except that just to go back to what Scott Galloway was saying, there is a sort of haunting oddness about men and women voting very differently. And it just feels somehow odd, doesn't it, in a modern polity that you have that sex difference in voting? And it feels. I don't know, it just feels unstable somehow, and unpleasant.
[36:45]
Mariana
I really don't think we can talk about it enough, the impact of the algorithms, because as well, the social media companies always try to argue that the algorithms are actually not gendered. So they try to say, oh, it's not about gender, we don't push people stuff on the basis of gender. But yet loads of the insiders have told me from the companies, all of the things that indicate, you know, how they build a profile of a user to push them stuff ultimately makes it very clear usually what someone's gender will be. And I think that does account for quite a lot of what we're seeing in terms of the real difference in politics kind of all around the world, really, between, between women and men.
[37:19]
Justin Webb
Okay. The algorithms will never push us apart.
[37:22]
Mariana
Mariana. Yeah, actually that's quite remarkable sometimes.
[37:25]
Justin Webb
Nice to talk to you. That's it for now. Bye bye bye. Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We listen, love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time. Next time. Bye.
[38:25]
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