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Trump takes his revenge on disloyal Republicans
00:36:22
The US president targets his political enemies in Kentucky and Indiana
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- [00:00]
Justin
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. This is how Donald Trump feels about a seven term Republican congressman.
- [00:09]
Donald Trump
We got to get rid of this loser. This guy is bad. He's disloyal to the Republican Party. He's disloyal to the people of Kentucky, and most importantly, he is disloyal to the United States of America.
- [00:23]
Justin
The President's talking about Thomas Massie. Thomas Massie is a Republican congressman from Kentucky who has stood up to Donald Trump, particularly on the Epstein files. And Trump is now funding an opponent in a primary election to get him to lose his seat. The President is not just acting in Kentucky, he's wiped out his critics in Indiana, in Ohio as well. He's pushing to oust a Republican Senator in Louisiana. So what happens to Republicans who go up against Donald Trump? Are they all still going to lose? Might they managed to fight back? Welcome to AmericasT.
- [01:00]
Jalene Almandarez
AmericasT.
- [01:01]
Anthony
AmericasT from BBC News.
- [01:04]
Donald Trump
You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money.
- [01:09]
Justin
We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.
- [01:13]
Jalene Almandarez
This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump derangement syndrome. I have four words for you. Turn the volume up,
- [01:28]
Justin
Lois. Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England.
- [01:32]
Anthony
And it's Anthony in the American headquarters of AmericasT in Washington D.C. and it's
- [01:37]
Justin
20 past 3 in the afternoon in London. Anthony, let us launch ourselves straight into this conversation about, I mean, something that normally it is fair to say, isn't it? We would not be talking about. So a set of primaries, the spring primaries, not all of them for congressional seats. That's the point, isn't it? Not all of them for seats that matter at all outside individual states. And yet not only do they matter politically, but they matter to the President.
- [02:05]
Anthony
I'm disappointed in you, Justin. You don't dig down deep into Republican state legislative primaries in Indiana to glean what is going on in American politics. But yes, this is unusual. And it's unusual because Donald Trump has made it his personal mission to to unseat a handful of Republican state senators in Indiana who voted against him on congressional redistricting, which we talked about in the past, redrawing the line maps in order to give Republicans an advantage in the House elections later this year. And that vote was on Tuesday. And Trump by and large was successful in ousting these folks.
- [02:48]
Justin
Yeah, and that's a big deal, isn't it? Because we're so used to talking about Donald Trump's waning power, politically speaking. And we've got used to the idea that the Democrats are winning election after election, which they are in places that they haven't won for some time, which they also are. You think of Mar a Lago as one of those. And yet, actually, this is a bit of a reminder, isn't it, that this guy's still able to swing the stick around, certainly when it comes to his own side.
- [03:21]
Anthony
Yeah. And I think that is the difference here. Donald Trump's grip on the Republican Party clearly is still very strong. His endorsement is still the most valuable thing that a Republican candidate running in a Republican primary can have. Now, when you get to the general election, Donald Trump's poll ratings across the board with independents and Democrats, I think that is where real damage is being done. And actually, there was another election on Tuesday, a state Senate race in Michigan in a district outside of Detroit that was kind of a swing district. It was very close two years ago during the presidential election, and the Democrat won that handily by double digits. So another little data point in that it's an uphill climb for Republicans in a general election, but in the primaries, what Donald Trump says tends to go. And we had more evidence of that just this week.
- [04:21]
Justin
Yeah, and they spent money too, didn't they, in the Indiana situation? I mean, one of the people who lost his seat was 80 years old and had stood countless times, hadn't he? And must have been surprised, slash shocked, to put it mildly, when the President of the United States, of his own party as well, intervenes to get him to lose his job.
- [04:44]
Anthony
Yeah, it is. It's difficult to overstate how unusual it is for the President of the United States, the White House, to get involved in state legislative races, intra party state legislative contests like this. But there's a reason why he did it, and the reason is he wants to send a message to the party as a whole around the country that if you go against Donald Trump's wishes, you will pay a price for it.
- [05:11]
Justin
And is that why there's so much money coming into this? Because another weirdness about Indiana before we go on to other things. But the weirdness, not only is this effectively a local election, a state election that the President shouldn't be involved with, and this shouldn't be happening, wouldn't be happening in a normal year, but also just amazing sums of money suddenly being spent by outside groups on making it happen.
- [05:36]
Anthony
Syed, about $13.5 million was spent on these primary campaigns in Indiana. That is roughly 5,000 jump from the $250,000 spent on state senate races in 2024, it is orders of magnitude larger. And it doesn't take a lot of money to change the dynamics of these smaller state legislative races. So when you're talking about more than $13 million being spent, that just swamped these four incumbents who didn't know what hit them. And I think that is the lesson that a lot of other Republicans in other states are gonna take out of this. They could have the money avalanche fall on them if they're not careful.
- [06:18]
Justin
Okay, let us turn to Thomas Massie, this Republican Congressman in Kentucky, who is an interesting character, isn't he? An eccentric character anyway, he's not exactly a national figure, is he? But it's worth just talking a little bit about him, isn't it? Because he's become, can I call him, a semi national figure? Because of the Epstein files.
- [06:41]
Anthony
Massie's been around for seven terms, so 14 years in the House, and he's been on the radar for people who pay attention to American politics because he is an interesting character, because he is a libertarian, a kind of a fiscal conservative. He doesn't like spending money, running up the deficit. Bit of a contrarian, kind of like Rand Paul, the Senator from Kentucky as well, and Rand Paul's father, Ron Paul. So of that, of that kind of independent minded mold, willing to take a stand, which has been fine for many of these years for Massie because Republicans had a comfortable majority, Democrats were in the majority for a while, but the spotlight has been on him, directly on him now over the past several years because it's been such a narrow House majority. And so his iconoclastic stands have cost Republicans and created very real headaches for Republicans when they've been trying to pass, say, spending bills or tax cut bills, or vote on authorizing Donald Trump's military excursions. And then, of course, one of the big things that he got a lot of attention for was the Jeffrey Epstein files. He joined with Ro Khanna, a California Democrat, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, another former Republican from Georgia who left office at the beginning of this year in order to force a vote in the House of Representatives to release these files. So that has made him the target of Donald Trump's ire probably more than anyone else in the Republican caucus in the House of Representatives.
- [08:16]
Justin
So you mention he's living off grid. He's very much a local character. He's someone who's been around for a long time, represented his district for a long time. Let's get a flavor of him. Because I think what we're about to hear, and this is actually an interview he did, he talked to the podcaster Theo Vaughan, and it's from last June, but he's talking to Theo Von about his cattle. And this conversation, it seems to me, kind of establishes in our minds just what his strengths might be.
- [08:46]
Thomas Massie
Oh, there's a picture of my cattle. They are Angus crossed with wagyu. I call them Wangus.
- [08:51]
Anthony
Oh, wow.
- [08:52]
Thomas Massie
Wangus. Beef A little.
- [08:54]
Theo Von
Oh, yeah, it's a little urban over there. Definitely. That's. Definitely.
- [08:57]
Thomas Massie
There's. There's the, you know, not the black sheep, but the white cow. He kind of stands out. I say, I feel like that white cow in D.C. some days. Like, do I really belong in this herd?
- [09:08]
Theo Von
Yeah, yeah. You seem like a little bit of like an outsider, I think, like. Or, you know, like a black sheep or like a maverick. I feel like people say if they talk about a maverick, and they say Thomas Massey, you know.
- [09:18]
Anthony
Yeah. So a maverick, an outsider. I think those are fair ways to characterize him. He does not fit in with. With the rest of the Roman Republican caucus. And I've been in the House chamber, up in the gallery looking down, and he often kind of hangs in the back, not seated with the rest of the Republicans. Sometimes he's even kind of leaning over onto the Democratic side of the aisle. So he marches to the beat of his own drum. And that has led to some conflicts. Although I will also say that by and large, he is still a conservative Republican. He tends to vote conservative, and interestingly enough, in an interview with Kaitlan Collins last November, he. He emphasized that he really doesn't have that many disagreements with Donald Trump. It's just there are a few that have gotten an outsized amount of attention.
- [10:03]
Thomas Massie
I vote with my party 91% of the time, and which means I agree with the. Have agreed with the President 91% of the time.
- [10:10]
Anthony
But they.
- [10:11]
Thomas Massie
When they're protecting pedophiles, when they are blowing our budget, when they are starting wars overseas, I'm sorry, I can't go along with that. And back home, people agree with me. They understand. Even the most ardent Trump supporters understand. Sometimes he gets bad advice, sometimes he gives bad advice, and we wouldn't model our lives after him, his personal life. And they're okay with that. I mean, they can still. You can still like Donald Trump in Kentucky and like what I'm doing and what Ro Khanna is doing, which is
- [10:44]
Justin
trying to get transparency anyway, Donald Trump, whatever he makes of remarks like that, which we can assume is not much, actually way, way too critical. Although he's saying he votes with him 91% of the time. Actually, the fact that he brought up those various things about Trump that he doesn't like won't have endeared him when he was making those remarks. So Donald Trump either finds or has found for him a challenger, a serious challenger. Are we saying this guy, Ed Galrane, he's a Navy seal, isn't he? Or a former Navy seal. So in many respects he will fit the bill of a challenger that Donald Trump would like to put in to this area. Is he someone who is a feasible candidate?
- [11:29]
Anthony
A feasible candidate in as much as he has Donald Trump's support and he's kind of running a campaign where he is not. Thomas Massie, the Donald Trump pick. And that may be all it takes for him to win this Republican primary. Remember Liz Cheney, who was also an outspoken Donald Trump critic, served on the January 6th committee investigating the attack on the US Capitol campaign for Kamala Harris when she was running for president in 2024. Donald Trump also found a challenger, or had found a challenger of hers in the primary and she went down in a blazing defeat by a comfortable margin. So this feels like the same kind of dynamic where it doesn't really matter who the opponent is, it's just that the opponent is endorsed by Donald Trump. And Donald Trump has made his dissatisfaction with the incumbent very well known.
- [12:23]
Justin
Yeah, he went down to Kentucky, didn't he, in March, and he was meant to be giving a speech about the economy, but, well, you judge the extent to which the economy is mentioned, at least in this bit of it.
- [12:36]
Donald Trump
This guy is bad. He's disloyal to the Republican Party, he's disloyal to the people of Kentucky, and most importantly, he is disloyal to the United States of America. And he's got to be voted out of office as soon as possible. On the other hand, Ed Gowrand has my complete and total endorsement. He's a true American hero and he's a great patriot. He's like central casting. I said, this is the guy I'm. Look, I wanted to, I want to just give me somebody with a warm body to beat Massey and I got somebody with a warm body but a big beautiful brain and a great patriot. He's unbelievable.
- [13:20]
Justin
Donald Trump does like, he likes a man's man, doesn't he? Likes a manly looking man?
- [13:25]
Anthony
Yeah, a warm body. I mean he's, he came right out and said it there guy Ryan doesn't really have any political experience. I think he ran for a state legislative race and loss in the Republican primary. He's a farmer and he's a decorated ex seal and that's about the extent of his resume. But for Donald Trump, clearly that is enough.
- [13:44]
Justin
Yeah, we're talking about money in the Indiana race. I'm guessing the amounts now are going to be even huger and presumably already pouring in.
- [13:53]
Anthony
The amount of money going into this race is just staggering. We were talking about the Indiana races. Well, this dwarfs that. There are Super PACs, Political Action Committees on both sides, pro Masi and anti Massey, that have raised or been contributed millions of dollars. 2.75 billion for one that's pro Gallerain, another couple of million dollars for the one that is pro Maci. And they're coming not from inside Kentucky. Gosh, there's not enough bourbon money there, I think to fund this. But they're coming from east coast billionaires. Thomas Massie has one donor who is from Philadelphia who's given $1 million. There's been a couple of hedge fund managers, Paul Elliot Singer and John Alfred Paulson, who have donated money to oust Thomas Massie. I'm just pulling up the latest figures here on just the campaign spending so far by Massie and Gallerain. Massie has spent $4.3 million so far. GalleryRain has raised $2.39 million and spent about a million dollars. That is just for, as I mentioned, for a primary campaign in a safe seat. That is astounding. But it just shows what, I guess what a battleground this is for kind of deciding where the Republican Party is and what kind of a price. Someone who stands up against Donald Trump and makes votes that are not always in lockstep with Republicans. The kind of importance is to either make an example of him or show that such a person can still exist within this party.
- [15:31]
Justin
Talking of making an example of him, the ads that are being bought with all this money are the most tasteful in nature, aren't they not? So there's a particular one that we ought to listen to there. You don't really get the full picture by listening. So I should establish first for people what is actually happening in it or. Or actually not happening in it because it's AI generated. It is not true. This did not happen. But Thomas Massey is shown in this ad holding hands with the two left wing members of Congress, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Ilhan Omar. So these two women, absolute hate figures on the Republican right. They're having Dinner together. They get into a taxi with him and then check into a hotel. So the implication, let's listen to her. But the implication is that they're basically going to go to a room, all three of them together.
- [16:24]
Kai Wright
Thomas Massie caught in a throttle in Washington. He's cheating with the squad on the America first movement. Massie voted with the Squad against Trump's tax cuts. Massey voted with the Squad against finishing Trump's wall. He voted with them against hiring new border agents. Well, this is worse than adultery. It's a complete and total betrayal of President Trump and Kentucky conservatives. On May 19, fire Thomas Massey, MAGA. Kentucky is responsible for the content.
- [16:53]
Anthony
Yeah, Thrupple. I don't think I've ever heard that referenced in a campaign advert before. But you know, I mean, we're breaking Kentucky.
- [17:02]
Justin
It's all very what you'd call conservative and old school values that place. So the idea of a throuple and number one, I don't think many people are going to know what it is. But number two, they will get the message, won't them? And that's the idea, this AI generated thing. And, and it does say AI generated, doesn't it? On it. They're in very small letters, but the overall message that they're getting across will potentially hit home.
- [17:25]
Anthony
Right. They're trying to paint Thomas Massie as being in league with Democrats and he votes with Democrats on some of these big issues which as we discussed on things like Iran war, on things like tax cuts and spending that Massie has a different kind of objection to than the Democrats. But they're on the same side of the vote table for that. And of course, most prominently on the Epstein files. That's not fake. The ad itself, the AI on it is fake. And that has generated some condemnations. Ilhan Omar, one of the people in the squad, has said the ad should be taken down. And even Marjorie Taylor Greene, who as I mentioned had cooperated with Massie on voting to release the Epstein files. She posted on X, calling it a fake AI campaign that was lying about Thomas Massie and a violation of the Take It down act that First Lady Melania Trump championed. This is a fake AI act that she backed who said Thomas Massie never dined, held hands with or intimately engaged with AOC and Ilhan Omar. Good to know. And then she goes into detailing that publishing intimate images of minors or non consultant adults, including AI generated imagery, is illegal. Marjorie Taylor Greene has had her own run ins with Donald Trump, but she still speaks for a component of the maga, right. Conservatives. And having her step up and try to defend Massie, not surprising, but probably welcome for him.
- [19:00]
Justin
So who's going to win?
- [19:02]
Anthony
That's a good question. The polling out there shows a tight race, but there hasn't been a lot of polling. If I had to guess, based on everything else we've seen in Indiana and with Liz Cheney in Wyoming a few years ago, it doesn't look good for Massie. He's been around for a while, but they've gone after Massie before, but never like this. He's never been quite the central focus before. It's kind of interesting. There was an ad speaking of AI generated ads, Thomas Massie had his own one that he wants to put up. It's on his website.
- [19:36]
Thomas Massie
Let's just talk about the elephant in the room. I agree with President Trump a whole lot more than I disagree with him.
- [19:42]
Anthony
And it is an AI generated elephant with golden Donald Trump style hair and a Make America Great Again red ball cap on it. And he stands next to the elephant and says that he and Donald Trump really are on the same team.
- [19:57]
Thomas Massie
And I approve this message because President Trump and I have a whole lot more to get done.
- [20:03]
Justin
Okay, that's Thomas Massie. We should say as well that in Louisiana, it's not just a member of the House who's invited the ire of Donald Trump and receiving the ire of Donald Trump. It's an actual senator, isn't it? And not a local senator, a US Senator, Bill Cassidy, who is being challenged and being challenged again by Donald Trump with someone put up against him in a primary.
- [20:27]
Anthony
Bill Cassidy is an established senator. He has been in the Senate since winning election in 2014. He is generally well respected, a former physician. And also, again, this is Louisiana. It's a safe Republican seat. But he had one prominent transgression that has generated Donald Trump's ire and that is he voted to convict Donald Trump after he was impeached following the January 6th attack on the US Capitol. He was one of a handful of Republicans who broke with their party in voting to what would have, you know, Donald Trump was already out of office, but would have prevented Donald Trump from ever running for elective office again. And that has, needless to say, come back to haunt him. If you look at polling for this race, he is definitely in trouble. He could very well lose to the Trump backed challenger.
- [21:25]
Justin
So the big question, can you be a Republican and at all critical of Donald Trump? And I think we have felt, haven't we, that the answer generally this year has been increasingly, yes, you can be, if you're careful about it, because of the waning power of the president. But it is obviously hugely alive question and possibly not quite as clear as we were suggesting at one stage or as it seemed to be at one stage. And it's a question that is now being raised with members of the administration. So there was a Turning Point USA event back in October in Mississippi, and J.D. vance, Vice President, is asked exactly about all of this, actually about dissent by a member of the audience.
- [22:12]
Audience Member
Recently, President Trump endorsed a candidate to run against Republican Representative Thomas Massie, who has opposed and criticized some of the Trump administration's aims. How would you address those who fear that principled disagreement or independent thinking of is to encourage within the party because of how it can be framed as a betrayal instead of as internal accountability or an opportunity for debate and negotiation?
- [22:35]
J.D. Vance
So it's a very good question. Let me say this one is hard for me. And the reason it's hard for me is because Thomas Massie and I, he's one of the first people that ever reached out to me about my book or about political office. I've known Thomas Massie well before Thomas Massey. It's because we can never keep count on him for some of the most difficult votes. I wish that that weren't the case. I say that as somebody who's known Thomas well before I got into politics. But politics is politics, and when you always vote against the party, you can't expect the party to actually back you.
- [23:05]
Anthony
So, I mean, it's interesting listening to JD Vance there because yeah, as we've discussed, Thomas Massie does vote against the House Republicans pretty regularly, even though on big conservative issues, he still is sides with them. Comparing that to Cassidy that Vance wasn't asked about, though Cassidy votes with the Republicans even more than Massie does lockstep on a lot of things. He just has one clear vote where he broke with the party, and that was on impeachment. And that was enough to get Donald Trump going after him. So it's not just making too many enemies, I think, Justin. I think it's making one enemy. And the one enemy, if it's Donald Trump, is enough to, if not sink you, at least put you in a very difficult position.
- [23:54]
Justin
And also it's the things that you pick to disagree with him on, isn't it? I mean, obviously the whole business of January 6th and the impeachment, et cetera, is a hot button issue, to put it mildly for Trump. And if you break with him on those sorts of things, you are going to be in trouble. And it turns out you are still in trouble. And with Thomas Massey, the big thing is Epstein. And again, it's been such a neuralgic thing, hasn't it, on the right. And so difficult, as we've discussed countless times for Donald Trump and the wider MAGA movement, because it's split them, having someone just really, really kind of again and again drilling down on this one issue that you want to go away. And Donald Trump said repeatedly, didn't he actually said in terms I wanted to go away, forget about it. It's over now. And to have someone who specifically won't leave that alone, that's the deal, isn't it? It's not the number of times he's voted against them, it's the issues.
- [24:56]
Anthony
Right, Right. I mean, that pushed Marjorie Taylor Greene out of the House of Representatives. She resigned at the beginning of this year. And it could toss Thomas Massie to the curb. It is interesting. We talk about Cassidy and his conviction vote. He wasn't the only Republican to vote to convict Donald Trump. In fact, there's another Republican running for reelection this year who voted to convict Donald Trump. That's Susan Collins in Maine. But for whatever reason, she's managed to avoid getting that big target on her back the way that Cassidy has. And maybe it's because there's a certain amount of political calculations that go into this. Susan Collins represents a state that Kamala Harris won, that Democrats win regularly in presidential elections. So she is needed there. And if she got bumped out, a Democrat probably would win that race, whereas Cassidy, as we've talked about, comes from a solidly conservative state, Louisiana. So the reality is that Trump, he can sometimes make exceptions if he thinks it's in the larger political interests of the Republican Party.
- [26:05]
Justin
Well, loyal listeners will know all about Maine and Graham Platner, the guy, the Democrat who is going to be running against Susan Collins and. Exactly. I mean, the point that we made about Platner is he has enormous strengths as a candidate and might be the one, mightn't he do, to finally see Susan Collins off so they don't want to do anything to destabilize her. It is all very fascinating. I know you've got to go now, Anthony, so I'll say goodbye to you. But I'm delighted to say we're going to stick with the subject because on the line is Jalene Almandarez, who is a reporter for the Cincinnati Inquirer and knows Thomas Massie, knows the district that he comes from, knows his part of Kentucky very well. So, Jolene, thanks so much for talking to us. Good to talk to you about Thomas Massie, who is, let's be frank, an eccentric character.
- [26:52]
Jalene Almandarez
Thank you so much for having me today, Justin. I appreciate being here. And I have had some time to get to know Congressman Massie a bit well this past few years, he invited me out to his farm in the northeast part of Kentucky. And when I went out there, he surrounds himself with plenty of people. He has his new wife, Carolyn Grace Mafa. He has his campaign folks, many of whom have been friends with him for a long time. I did a tour actually, through Eastern Kentucky, and one woman I spoke to who works at a pizza shop that Thomas Massie likes to go to, told me that they think of him like family there. People come up to him, they talk about issues. He chats with folks. And I know years ago when he was running for Lewis county judge executive, he went out with his former wife, Rhonda Massey, and they used to play jam sessions with people in the community as a way to connect with folks. He's someone who is really nerdy, right? But he also manages to be charismatic in a way that draws people to him. And very much like me, he is a yapper. So once you get him going on an issue he's interested in, he'll chat with you all day about it as I blur, which is really fun.
- [28:05]
Justin
And when you chat not just to him, but to people, and not just at his rallies either, or his events, but more widely to conservative Republican people who live in that district, are you getting a sense of how they feel about this primary race and the Trump candidate versus him?
- [28:28]
Jalene Almandarez
Of course. Me and a photographer ended up going on sort of a road trip through the eastern part of the district, and we talked to voters and what folks told me. There was one gentleman who was sitting in a little shortstop building where you can get food at the counter. And he was so interesting because he said that he voted for President Trump three times, was an ardent Trump supporter, agreed with President Trump's policies, but that he would be voting for Thomas Massie. And the reason behind that, it wasn't just because, you know, he lives near Thomas Massie and he's a hometown guy. He told me it was because he thinks Donald Trump needs the pushback. He told me that also, and I heard this again and again from many people, is that the deciding factor for them was the Epstein files. And that gentleman I was referring to actually told me, you know, because of the Epstein files, Thomas Massie will always have my vote. Now, on the other hand, for instance, back in the beginning of March, President Trump was in Northern Kentucky doing a little bit of a rally, talking to folks about the economy. But another thing he did is that essentially became a rally for Ed Gallbrine. President Trump endorses Ed Gallerin. And when I talk to folks there, I talked to numerous people who told me, you know, Massie, he can go. Northern Kentucky doesn't need Massie. We need someone who's gonna support Donald Trump's agenda more directly. So it really just depends on who you talk to.
- [30:01]
Justin
I'm really interested, though, that you can talk to someone who is a firm Trump supporter, but who is able still to go against Donald Trump. And I think it's more widely. This is a person or a category of people that we don't talk about enough really, that you can be a firm MAGA supporter and regard yourself as a firm MAGA supporter and a firm Trump supporter, but actually you're more independent minded than possibly that Donald Trump would like and that we kind of give people credit for in a way.
- [30:36]
Jalene Almandarez
Yes. I'm so glad you used the phrase independent minded, because I'm not sure if there's another phrase to describe Kentucky voters. Just as an example here, easily Trump won Kentucky in the past few presidential elections. Almost a totally red state. This is Trump country that we're in right now. But then we have a Democrat, Governor Andy Beshear. And I did the math for an article I wrote, and Andy Beshear only wins with the numbers he wins if Republicans got into that voting booth and voted for him. And, you know, I think I had that general idea before I actually went out into the district that Trump supporters would support candidate Ed Gallerin, but that's not the case.
- [31:18]
Justin
Do you get a sense of how it's going to end, whether Massey can win?
- [31:21]
Jalene Almandarez
I just spoke to someone about that yesterday after those primary results out in Indiana, I had that exact same question. I spoke to Northern Kentucky University political science professor Shawna Riley, and in that conversation, she agreed. It was. It's a tough race for Massie, but. But he has that name recognition. He has. He's very popular in the district at some of these events I've gone to. People drive hours to come see Thomas Massie speak. I'm talking about five hours. I'm talking about eight hours they're driving to hear him speak. And so she said that it's going to be a tough one, but she thinks he may still come out victorious. I'm not Taking a side either way, because I definitely don't have a crystal ball.
- [32:05]
Justin
You just give us an impression there of Kentucky. You can drive for eight hours, can you, and still be in Kentucky?
- [32:11]
Jalene Almandarez
No. These people are driving from other states. These folks are driving in from Missouri, the northern parts of Ohio. People are driving in from parts of Indiana, and they drove there to hear Thomas Nassey speak in Florence, Kentucky, which is a pretty small. It's a metro area, but it's quite small.
- [32:32]
Justin
We were hearing him earlier talking about his cows. Give us your own impression of his. His farm, because it is quite a place, isn't it?
- [32:41]
Jalene Almandarez
Yes, it was definitely crossing it off my professional bucket list to finally make it to the farm. So Garrison, Kentucky, on the approach. If I can just paint you a scene, there are like these rolling hills. Thomas Massey often refers to it as the shire from Lord of the Rings. And this space is so sacred to him. And I really get that impression because his now past wife, Rhonda, grew up there. That's her family's land, and it's where they had their first date when he went to help her with her science homework. So when I get to that land, he's so excited to show me a new bridge that he's building on his land so he can have more grazing pasture for his animals. He took me to a pecan tree and picked pecans up to give them to me. I did take one pecan. And as he's driving me to this home that he built, he literally pulled rock out of the land and hand chiseled these stones to make his home. And when I told him, man, I would have just given up about a third of the way through. He was like, no, I gave up. Many times, like, part of this house has been started and then stopped and started and stopped many times. He definitely told me that has happened. It was really interesting to be in this, that he has spent so much time and takes so much pride in having built and nurtured over the years.
- [34:07]
Justin
Jalene, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. You've got one of the best jobs in American political reporting at the moment, haven't you, on the Cincinnati Inquirer? But also with this incredible story happening on your. Your doorstep. It's just fascinating and I'm so grateful to you for bringing it all to us and bringing it all so alive. Maybe we could talk to you again once it all happens, because we're not far away now, are we, from the denouement, as it were? I don't know whether denouement is a word they much use in Northern Kentucky, but it's going to be fascinating, isn't it? And it's going to be nationally important, too.
- [34:40]
Jalene Almandarez
Yes, I believe that Thomas Massie still has a chance to win this race against Ed Gahlrein. And so if that happens, it will show a shift in what Republican voters are going to accept in government over the next few years and in the years to come. So I'm so excited to see the outcome of this race. You have no idea. And I'd be happy to be on again to tell you how election night goes.
- [35:06]
Justin
We'll hold you to that. Gillian, thank you so much for talking to us.
- [35:09]
Jalene Almandarez
Of course. And thank you all so much for having me.
- [35:12]
Justin
Okay. Well, we're obviously going to follow what happens to Thomas Massie, but also more widely as well what happens in the other primaries because this has been a pretty odd primary season. And of course, California we haven't yet talked about in any great detail, but that is also happening at the moment. So plenty more on primaries to come and what those primaries mean for what's going on in wider American politics. But for the minute from me, bye. Bye.
- [35:37]
Anthony
If you've liked what you've heard today, please do consider subscribing to AmericasT. That way you're never going to miss an episode. And you can do this wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to get in touch, we do read every single bit of correspondence we get. So send us an email. AmericasTBC.co.uk our WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can always get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. Until next time. Bye, y'.
- [36:13]
Jalene Almandarez
All.
- [36:28]
Kai Wright
I'm Kai Wright.
- [36:29]
Anthony
I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [36:33]
Kai Wright
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.
- [36:40]
Jalene Almandarez
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [36:42]
Kai Wright
Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, starting May 13.
- [36:47]
Anthony
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.