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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
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Sarah
You don't look like. Please See, I'll take that as a compliment.
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Asma Khalid
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Sarah
Here's a question for you, Anthony. If you're going to try and sum up everything that's happened since 20th of January, everything about Donald Trump's second term in just one word, what would it be?
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Anthony
One word. Let's see. Disruptive, chaotic, aggressive, destabilizing. Take your pick.
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Sarah
Okay, 41 words. I think we could add revenge or retribution to that, especially after the events we've seen over the last couple of days where we've got one of his big enemies, as he describes him, James Comey, former head of the FBI, being indicted. And he sent National Guard forces to the city of Portland, which he complains about a great deal as well. It feels like he's taking on and fighting back against previous adversaries. Welcome to AmericasT.
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Asma Khalid
AmericasT, AmericasT from BBC News.
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Donald Trump (voice clips)
When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world.
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Anthony
Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry?
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Sarah
Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.
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Donald Trump (voice clips)
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
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Sarah
Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington bureau.
- [02:24]
Anthony
And it's Anthony right next to you, Sarah, here in Washington Now, James Comey.
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Sarah
We will get to later because I think a lot of people have been saying over the weekend that this is one of the most frightening things they've seen Donald Trump do since he was returned to office. So we need to give that plenty of attention. But It's a big deal also, isn't it, that troops are being sent to Portland, National Guard troops. We know what it's like having them on the streets of Washington. So we've seen that for the last few weeks. But sending them to Portland, to Oregon is really important, isn't it, Anthony?
- [02:51]
Anthony
Right. And he announced this in a Truth social post on Saturday. It kind of came out of nowhere because we had been talking about Chicago. Trump had said he was going to send National Guard to Memphis, Tennessee. New Orleans, Louisiana had been batted around a bit. Portland was not one that was on the radar. But this is the way Donald Trump described it in his Truth Social post. He said, at the request of Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, I am directing Secretary of War Pete Hegseth to provide all necessary troops to protect war ravaged Portland and any of our ICE facilities under siege from attack by antifa and other domestic terrorists. I am also authorizing full force if necessary. All right, unpack that for us. War ravaged Portland. Why Portland in particular?
- [03:39]
Sarah
Well, I think he's looking for an excuse, isn't he, to send National Guard troops to blue states, to Democrat leaning states where he can. And there's a whole slew of reasons for that that we can get into the general purpose of doing this. But he can't, can he? Unless the governor invites them in, the legality is that he's not allowed to send his troops there and he fel foul of the law in California when LA took a case after he'd sent the National Guard there, of course. Do you think when he says it's the ICE facilities, so the immigration facilities that are under attack, this is him looking for another justification so that he can use his presidential power to send National Guard troops anywhere he wants, regardless of what the governor says?
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Anthony
Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it. As you mentioned, California was the first. California Governor Gavin Newsom filed suit trying to block it. A lower court judge put that on hold, put the deployment of National Guard on hold. But then the appellate court put that lower court hold on hold. So we've seen the governor of Oregon, now a Democrat, very quickly file suit hoping for the same sort of result to get this suspended. And the White House came out with a sheet of what they said was evidence for this. They listed a couple of times that immigration officials have been assaulted in their views. No details on this, but assaulted or threatened or doxed revealed who they are. They had some local neighbors who were complaining about the noise and then just kind of a couple incidents about how disruptive this was. So it seems, in my opinion, kind of thin gruel for deploying soldiers on the streets of Portland. But I think you have to view it in the larger context that Portland, Oregon, liberal city, has been a hotbed of protests going back decades. I mean, there were really big protests there against globalism and the World Trade Organization and things like that. Of course, with the Black Lives matters movement in 2020, we saw big demonstrations there and some damaged federal property at the time. And Trump was interested in deploying National Guard at that time, and there was pushback within his own administration. I think he regretted not being able to do it.
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Sarah
So not a lot of pushback in this administration. Not a lot of Donald Trump.
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Anthony
So, yeah, I think there was kind of a hair trigger on his part. Well, there's problems in Portland. Bang, let's send our National Guard troops. But it does risk escalating things, doesn't it?
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Sarah
Well, I was seeing pictures on social media all weekend, which are obviously trying to make a political point, but of people sending pictures of sort of terribly moderate cues, farmers markets, to buy artisanal bread or pickles or something like that and say, you know, this is what war ravaged Portland looks like. Sending a picture of a sort of liberal's dream scene. Beautiful weather, organic foods, you name it. Happy dogs, walking in the park. What is it like there? I've never actually been. I've always wanted to go.
- [06:32]
Anthony
Yeah, I grew. I spent a year in Oregon and my family lived there, Corvallis, which is a little south of Portland. But I would get up. Portland was a big city and Even in the 80s and 90s, it was always kind of the alternative, quirky, weird town. It has only gotten quirkier and weirder and become more of kind of a liberal bastion. I think if you see the videos on the streets now, it does not look war torn by any definition of that. I mean, there are protests outside the ICE facility, and that is kind of the gathering point for all of these protests. And there's a very active, engaged liberal activist group in Portland that will get out there and demonstrate for these kind of things. So we have seen that turn into sometimes disruptive, sometimes violent protests. That hasn't, I don't think, been the case at this ICE facility. But by Trump deploying these, well, it can either one, things kind of stay the same, stay calm, which is, you know, probably fine with Trump. But then he gets another opportunity to set the precedent of deploying National Guard. Or two, this becomes a flashpoint. And then there are bigger protests. And this becomes something where there are clashes between federal troops and protesters. And that gives Trump the ability to say, see, I told you we need to send more National Guard in. And I think you're seeing that from actually some Democratic politicians, the senators, the two Democratic senators who represent Oregon saying, stay calm. Don't do anything to instigate this. We are going to fight this in the political rooms. We don't want to take it to the streets.
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Sarah
And there is a fear among quite a lot of Democrats that not only is this about Donald Trump wanting to be seen to crack down on law and order and do it in this particular way where he, with his presidential power, can send troops into cities instead of leaving it to the mayor or the governor to deal with that. He personally wants to take the reins of law and order. But there are people, I noticed, J.B. pritzker, for instance, the Illinois governor, saying this over the weekend, that they think there's a wider agenda leading all the way up to the midterms and that Donald Trump actively wants, in cities that are more likely to vote Democrat, a really heavy presence of National Guard troops out on the streets during the elections in the hope that that might suppress Democratic turnout. Is that fanciful? I mean, are they being a bit paranoid about that?
- [08:52]
Anthony
Probably a little of both. I mean, there's very real concerns about what's gonna happen in the midterm elections, because these, as we've talked about in the past, these midterm elections, are so pivotal, it could determine whether Democrats take back one or both chambers of Congress. And if they do that, then they're going to be able to, one, stop Donald Trump's legislative agenda dead in its tracks, but also begin investigating. To have this kind of supervising ability, to be able to hold committee hearings and issue subpoenas and do all the kind of things that will really bedevil Trump for the last two years of his term. I think we heard from Keith Wilson, who is the mayor of Portland, talking about his own views of why they're doing this and his own views of whether this is justified. Just another one of these Democratic politicians who has been given a platform to be able to respond. Let's hear what he had to say.
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Keith Wilson
President Trump has directed all necessary troops to Portland, Oregon. The number of necessary troops is 0 in Portland and any other American city. And let me repeat that. This is an American city. We do not need any intervention. This is not a military target. The president will not find lawlessness or violence here. I've been so deeply disappointed to see the footage from a half decade ago recycled and then recycled again.
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Sarah
The footage that Mayor Wilson is referring to there that has been going round and round on social media in the last few days is not what's happening in Portland today, although it's often made to look like that. It's footage from back in 2020 after George Floyd was killed. And that inc. Incited lots and lots of protests. And it's been recirculating. Now, Donald Trump may or may not have believed that it was current when he saw it. Certainly obviously didn't do any checking about it because it looked like a perfect reason to send the National Guard there because he was furious back in 2020 about it all as well, wasn't he?
- [10:51]
Anthony
Yeah, exactly. And as I mentioned, he wanted to send National Guard troops in, in 2020 and he wasn't able to. So in a way, it's not surprising that he very quickly, when Portland kind of became a focus of Fox News and these protests and all this stuff that was airing on and some of the clips, as you mentioned, they're not even what's going on there right now. They were happening five years ago. And so they're all kind of mixed together and showing up on Fox News. And it's creating this kind of a belief on the right that Portland is in crisis. And it was kind of interesting, actually. Trump himself earlier this month was, was talking about Portland and seeing these videos and not sure whether they're real or not or we're not sure whether they're current or not. I mean, here's, here's what he said on the 5th about Portland and what he was seeing on, I guess, Fox News and conservative outlets.
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Donald Trump (voice clips)
I will say this. I watched today. I didn't know that was continuing to go on. But Portland is unbelievable. What's going on in Portland, the, the destruction of the city. Well, I'm going to look at it now because I didn't know that was still going on. This has been going on for years. So we'll, we'll be able to stop that very easily. We'll be able to stop. But, you know, that was not on my list, Portland. But when I watched television last night, this has been going on. You wouldn't be standing if you were the mare.
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Sarah
You would be.
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Donald Trump (voice clips)
Can you imagine what they're doing? They're walking and throwing smoke bombs in the store. These are paid terrorists. Okay?
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Sarah
Paid terrorists. That's interesting. It's also interesting, I think, how influenced he is by what he sees on television. Far more than, you know, whatever Senior advisors have been giving him briefings in the Oval Office. He turns on the TV for 10 minutes and that changes policy. But anyway, that's by the by, the paid terrorists is really interesting because he rails all the time, doesn't it, about Antifa, another what he calls domestic terrorists. I think he's even actually officially declared Antifa to be a domestic terrorist organization. Has you hear it mentioned all the time, usually by right wingers who are saying whatever terrible thing has happened can be blamed on violent Antifa members. What is it? I mean it's not something you can, you can't really be a card carrying member of Antifa.
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Anthony
There's a line going around that Antifa is neither domestic nor an organization by any kind of a definition. I think it actually started over in Europe as anti fascist protests, but it's more kind of a, an outlook on how to resist what many view as the right wing dictatorial authoritarian trends in governments around the world. And so this is their anti movement, anti fascist movement, which is what Antifa comes from. And when you see and hear right wing politicians, and Donald Trump in particular talking about Antifa, they're not talking about going after, directly after Antifa because there is no president of Antifa, there's no board of Antifa. What he wants to target are the left wing groups that he says are funneling money to support these kind of demonstrations that then turn violent. And so the names you hear kicked up are say George Soros and Open Society, which is his organization that supports in their definition open government and freedom of information and things like that. But the Republicans and Trump accuse George Soros and other left wing billionaires of funding these organizations, funding these protests, making signs that they can carry. And that is what I think they're going to be getting at when it comes to like what actual steps they can take.
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Sarah
And conservative politicians often sound obsessed with Antifa, as though all of the nation's ills can be blamed on them. And they say that the January 6 riot, for instance, was provoked by Antifa people being there, all sorts of things that have gone wrong all across the country, it's all Antifa's fault. Are we looking at something else going on here in Donald Trump's mind where if he can take these left wing organizations and really demonize them as domestic terror groups and here he is setting the National Guard against them essentially so making it look kind of warlike, he has to do that in order to create a pretext to try to investigate or prosecute any of the left wing billionaires who fund left wing protest groups. If he can say, basically look at the domestic terrorists that the likes of Antifa are, that gives them the justification to go after someone like George Soros for funding them. Because it's not illegal to fund just, you know, some kind of left wing group that's simply putting out pamphlets, is it?
- [15:22]
Anthony
No. And that actually on Friday, at the same time that James Comey, which we'll talk about, was indicted, Donald Trump signed an order directing his government to investigate the funding, the left wing funding of domestic terrorist groups. And I think a lot of people read that as being a means to lay the groundwork for prosecution, whether racketeering or other kind of prosecutorial tools that are used to go after organized crime, use them and direct them at left wing organizations. Because if you can cut off the funding to get out the vote, the organizing drives that left wing organizations do, the kind of things that help to win elections and rally support, create grassroots, I mean, that's going to give your side a leg up because the right is certainly organizing and they have a lot of money and they're spending a lot of time trying to get their grassroots built up, particularly in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination. If they can undercut the Democrats at the same time, the left at the same time, then I think they view that as a plus.
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Sarah
Now we've had a voice note from Yvonne in London asking us about what happens with these National Guard deployments. Let's have a listen.
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Yvonne
Hi, I'm Ericast, this is Yvonne from London, indeed, recording on a London bus, so excuse the background noise. My question concerns the deployment of the National Guard, the federal troops to various US Cities. We hear about them turning up, but do they leave? Are they still there? What's happening after the deployment? What are sort of the longer, medium term consequences? Many thanks, bye.
- [16:56]
Sarah
Thank you, Yvonne. And we're quite well placed to answer that, Anthony and I, because we are here in Washington D.C. which of course had a national troop deployment itself. Now how long do they stay there? She was asking. And that kind of is all depends on the law, doesn't it? And this rather complicated business about whether the President even has the power to send the troops in. And that's different in Washington D.C. than it is in other states.
- [17:18]
Anthony
Right. Washington D.C. is a federal city. So the President by law can take over the National Guard and deploy it for whatever reason he wants. Whatever he wants. California and Oregon and Illinois, those are trickier because the law seems to indicate that it's the state governor who is the one who deploys the National Guard and has to be consulted and has to approve. What we saw in California and Los Angeles during these anti ICE protests was that Trump sent in the National Guard and actual Marines, active duty soldiers, without the governor's permission or consent. And that's why this has all been kind of tied up in lawsuits. And so we kind of have to see how those lawsuits play out for how long those soldiers can stay deployed, how long they could be deployed in Oregon if they start showing up there soon. By the way, I love the fact that she recorded this on a bus. This is such an important question that she couldn't wait. She had to get it recorded and sent to us. So I hope we gave you a good answer, Yvonne.
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Sarah
Now, we don't know where she was going, but there's a phrase in English, English about seeking the view of the man on the top of the Clapham omnibus, a way to get to the kind of grassroots sense of, you know, the ultimate vox pop. So let's hope that she was on her way to or from Clapham, as she asked us that. So I started this episode, Anthony, talking about revenge and retribution, things that Donald Trump promised us during the campaign he would do. So we can't claim that this is a surprise that he suddenly pulled this out of nowhere, but I think it reached a new point in the last few days with the indictment of James Comey, because this is the first time somebody's actually been officially indicted, charged with criminal offenses that's been on his list. He's done other things like take away Secret Service protection for people. I will probably get into all of that kind of thing, but this is the biggest with James Comey. Run us through the relevant bits of James Comey's CV and why Donald Trump hates him so much.
- [19:16]
Anthony
It's a blast from the past. I mean, we used to talk about James Comey every day in 2016 and 2017 when he was the director of the FBI and a kind of a central figure not only in investigations of Donald Trump and Russia meddling in the 2016 election, but also investigations of Democrat Hillary Clinton and her use of a private email server. Can you remember that? It seems like ancient history now, but he was appointed FBI director by Democrat Barack Obama in 2013. Although Comey is a Republican, FBI directors are supposed to serve terms that stretch out over presidential terms, so they're supposed to be somewhat separate and protected from partisan passions. What happened, though, was when Donald Trump was elected, in part because Comey reopen the investigation to Hillary Clinton about a week before Election Day. And that kind of changed the dynamics of that election, but we'll put that aside.
- [20:08]
Sarah
Yeah, but this is something I remember really clearly. Just over a week before the election, he came out and said, you know, he was. Whatever it was he was carrying on his investigation into her emails, and it couldn't have come at a worse time for her campaign. And she and a lot of Democrats blame him personally for losing. So you would think Donald Trump be delighted with the man that handed him the election.
- [20:28]
Anthony
You would think. But shortly after that, Comey had a meeting with Donald Trump, said that the. They had this dossier, this investigation that they were doing into Russian meddling in the 2016 election and possible ties between Trump's own campaign and the Russian government. And he said one of this dossier had incriminating evidence, or alleged had talked about the potential for maybe incriminating evidence that the Russians had on Trump that set off Trump pushing back against Comey. In the early months of Trump's presidency, 2017, there was more and more talk about what Russia did to meddle in the election. Trump ended up firing Comey, saying he could trust him, that he wanted to replace him with someone else. That set off the independent counsel investigation, the Robert Mueller investigation into all of this allegations of Russian meddling in the 2016 election. That. I mean, we're going back a lot here, but that. That investigation ended up saying that, yes, the Russians did meddle in the 2016 election, but there were no conclusive evidence that there was any kind of coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. But.
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Sarah
So that's what Trump always calls the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. That's the shorthand for it.
- [21:47]
Anthony
Yeah, that's. That's the shorthand for it. But to just kind of step back about what Donald Trump thinks of James Comey, he blames him for setting off all of that and years worth of political distractions and investigations into Trump during his first term, and that it was Comey who was responsible. Comey was one because he had an ax to grind against Trump. And the FBI was riddled with, in his view, people who did not support Trump and wanted to undermine his presidency. He never let that go. And even though Comey has not held any kind of public office since he was fired by Donald Trump in 2017, he's kind of faded from public view. Clearly, Trump still blames him. And others in Trump's circle blame Comey as being part of the deep state that was conspiring against Trump. And just a week ago, Saturday, Trump posted on Truth Social a complaint that his Justice Department wasn't prosecuting these people. And he name checked Comey in particular, along with Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York, and Adam Schiff, a senator from California who was key in that Russia investigation when he was a member of the House of Representatives. And lo and behold, two days later, we have talk about Trump replaced the.
- [23:01]
Sarah
Yeah, this is absolutely astonishing, isn't it? So there he is, he's shouting essentially on social media at the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, saying, get this done. Why are these people not in court? And then within two or three days, the U.S. attorneys resigned, the one that Trump wanted to get rid of. He has appointed one of his own personal lawyers, who has no experience as a prosecutor whatsoever, to that job. And then within 48 hours, she's come up with an indictment, which is what up until then the Justice Department had been saying there just wasn't enough evidence for, you know, they couldn't prosecute him, they couldn't put together a case at a reasonable chance of getting a conviction, so they couldn't take him to court. Then this woman, Lindsay Halligan, steps in and suddenly she comes up with an indictment. But it's kind of weird anyway, isn't it? Because anybody who's poured over the indictment, he doesn't even really, really know exactly what it is that Comey's been charged with. I mean, it comes over the larger heading of lying to Congress exactly what it was he said and exactly why they think they can prove that's a lie. Seems a little bit vague.
- [24:02]
Anthony
Yeah, the indictment is round testament that Comey gave to Congress in 2020 about leaks that the FBI had to media outlets about the Russia investigation and whether Comey authorized those leaks or not. And Comey denied it kind of in a circuitous way, saying he stood by his earlier testimony. I think in that congressional testimony, which was one of the reasons why prosecutors may have been kind of reluctant to push this, because it clearly is not clear cut what he testified and whether he was lying about what he knew. And there's conflicting statements from him and Andrew McCabe, who was his deputy, who was the one who actually leaked the information to the media. Let's hear from it.
- [24:45]
Sarah
Difficult to prove whether people are lying themselves anyway. You've got to prove intent as well as the fact that they statement was incorrect.
- [24:51]
Anthony
And obviously he's a pretty bright guy and he has legal training and he was the head of the FBI. I'm sure he was very careful in that testimony. But let's listen to Comey himself, who put out a video statement, a video response on Instagram on Thursday after that indictment came out, saying what he thought of this indictment.
- [25:09]
I
My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees, and you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant, and she's right. But I'm not afraid, and I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it, which it does. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith.
- [25:58]
Sarah
Some really interesting things in that statement, including saying fear is the tool of a tyrant. James Comey says I'm not afraid. Well, I think a lot of other people, if they thought they might end up in his position, probably would be and with perfectly good cause, because he says he's got confidence that he's innocent and that therefore he won't be convicted. But it seems to me that the Trump administration isn't necessarily absolutely set on getting him convicted and sent to prison because the process can be the punishment. This is going to take years. I mean, it already has. He will have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least on legal representation. I don't know if he is doing any kind of work at the moment, but if he is, this will probably, almost certainly take. It will have repercussions through his personal life as well. We've talked to you remember Miles Taylor, friend of the pod who's been on here. He's going through a lower level version of this and he's told us just how incredibly disruptive it's been for him and his family. This will have a chilling effect, won't it, on all sorts of people who might be thinking I ought to stand up for democracy in the American Constitution, look at what's happening to James Comey and think, well, maybe not me.
- [27:08]
Anthony
And John Bolton, Donald Trump's former national security adviser, who had his home and office raided looking for classified documents. There now is a pattern of harassment and in this case, prosecution of people who had been critical of Donald Trump over the past four to eight years. So I think it does risk having a chilling effect. Of course, if you talk to Republicans and Donald Trump, they will say, well, that's exactly what happened in the four years after Trump left office that Donald Trump was indicted four times, convicted once on charges, which we've talked about in the past. The hush money payments to the porn star were pretty. An unusual application of federal law. And so Trump saying, I was selectively prosecuted because of who I was. So turnabout is fair play. These people are being. They won't admit it, but clearly James Comey is being prosecuted in part because he was sharply critical of Donald Trump and has been ever since. I mean, he is out of public office, but he still has been pretty critical of Donald Trump. Remember that picture on the beach of 86 47, which the Republicans said meant, you know, kill Donald Trump? I mean, it's. But it was something where they said, well, he's making threats. And I guess the Secret Service actually investigated him. So he hasn't been entirely silent is what I'm saying. And so now this is the chance for Republicans and for the Trump administration, the Justice Department, which clearly now the firewall between the Justice Department and the President is gone. They're doing, they're taking actions at the behest of the president. Like they are now using the same, in their view, the same sorts of tools that were used to go after Donald Trump or Steve Bannon or other folks in the administration who were prosecuted for lying to Congress.
- [28:58]
Sarah
Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro went on for refusing to testify to Congress. So, I mean, yeah, you could say the boots on the other foot now, but for all that the Trump team complained vociferously about the Justice Department being weaponized and the witch hunt against them, they seem perfectly happy to do the same thing themselves without fearing charges of hypocrisy.
- [29:22]
Anthony
Right. And we should draw distinctions, too, between what happened to Trump and others and what's happening now. You know, the prosecutions in New York and the indictment in Atlanta against Trump, those were independent of the Justice Department of the White House. And even the two federal indictments that Trump faced for handling classified documents and for attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election, those were the results of an independent counsel that was set up, a special prosecutor that was set up to investigate, and Biden wasn't there posting on social media, wasn't making public comments saying that, you know, Trump should be indicted soon, let's get him, and he's totally guilty, guilty as hell. The sorts of things that Donald Trump is saying about Comey and about Letitia James and about Adam Schiff and these other folks that he is targeting. So there are key differences to what happened the past four years and what's happening now. It just feels like the pretense, any kind of a veneer of independence has been stripped away. This is a Justice Department, as I said, that is operating at the behest of this president. And this perceived firewall that has been set up between now and the days of Nixon is gone.
- [30:36]
Sarah
Yeah. And Donald Trump doesn't deny that this is probably just the start. He was asked on Friday, now that James Comey's been indicted, who's the next person on your list?
- [30:48]
Anthony
Mr. President, I'm James Comey. Now that James Comey has been indicted.
- [30:52]
Donald Trump (voice clips)
Who is the next person on your.
- [30:54]
Anthony
List in this retribution?
- [30:55]
Donald Trump (voice clips)
It's not a list, but I think there'll be others. I mean, they're corrupt. These were corrupt radical left Democrats because Comey essentially was a. He's worse than a Democrat. I would say the Democrats are better than Comey, but no, there'll be others. Look, it was, that's my opinion. They weaponized the Justice Department like nobody in history. What they've done is terrible. And so I would. I hope they're. Frankly, I hope there are this, because you can't let this happen to a country.
- [31:29]
Sarah
Often what he wants to prosecute them for is entirely different from what he is angry with them about, though, isn't it? So, Adam Schiff, a Democratic congressman, the Trump administration say that there's some evidence of mortgage fraud, that him saying somewhere wasn't his principal residence or was when he was applying for a mortgage. I mean, it's not his mortgages he cares about.
- [31:52]
Anthony
With Adam Schiff, it's right. It's the fact that he was chair of the House Intelligence Committee that was investigating and ultimately impeached Donald Trump for pressuring Volodymyr Zelenskyy to try to find evidence of malfeasance on Joe Biden's part in Ukraine. I mean, again, trip down memory lane for all of this, but Donald Trump remembers clearly, and Donald Trump is pursuing punishment for people who crossed him in the past. And, and we opened this episode talking about retribution and revenge as a description for Trump's presidency. And he said, as you point out, he said last year, the year before on the campaign trail that I will be your retribution. And sometimes he said, well, winning would be retribution. Success of the country will be retribution. But there were other times where he specifically said, I'm not ruling out revenge. And sometimes revenge is justified. And sometimes what the Democrats did to him is deserving of payback, essentially. And I think Back to the years of Richard Nixon and the Watergate scandal, when the Watergate tapes revealed that Richard Nixon was plotting to use the FBI to investigate his enemies. And that was one of the key aha moments where everyone came to the conclusion that Richard Nixon was corrupt and he was abusing power and he needed to be forced from office. And he ultimately resigned under the threat of being impeached. Well, here we have Donald Trump coming right out and saying it a week and a half ago on his truth Social post. These are the people you should prosecute. Why aren't they prosecuting them? They're guilty as hell. It just shows how different this political environment is and how much the rules have changed now versus in 1972. 73, 74.
- [33:40]
Sarah
Okay, well, that should be the last from us for now. Benjamin Netanyahu is about to arrive at the White House. So I'm gonna run off and see if I can get into a press conference and try and ask him and Donald Trump a question there.
- [33:50]
Anthony
Excellent. I'm starting to wrap my head around the fact that the government could shut down at midnight tomorrow night. So there's a lot of politics around that, which I'm sure we will delve into later this week.
- [34:00]
Sarah
Yeah. Oh, and that. And that big meeting at the Pentagon, the mystery meeting where every senior person in the military has all been called to come and go to this meeting with Pete Hegseth. And we don't know what it's about.
- [34:11]
Anthony
He's gonna lecture on personal fitness and grooming. I think it should be fun to. Fun to watch.
- [34:17]
Sarah
So plenty to talk about the next time. We're back with another AmericasT.
- [34:20]
Anthony
Bye, y'. All. AmericasT. AmericasT from BBC News.
- [34:27]
Podcast Host
Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an AmericasT. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, all actually get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week, actually, on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.
- [35:34]
Asma Khalid
America is changing, and so is the world.
- [35:39]
Anthony
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [35:47]
Asma Khalid
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [35:49]
Anthony
Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.
- [35:53]
Asma Khalid
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [35:59]
Anthony
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.