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Trump’s Venezuela takeover... everything you need to know
00:31:49
The US president says America will “run” Venezuela
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- [00:00]
BBC Announcer
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- [00:38]
Justin
One incredible 48 hours. The President of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, in American captivity, captured by American special forces being held now in Brooklyn, New York. And Donald Trump saying of Venezuela this.
- [00:54]
Donald Trump
We'Re going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition. So we don't want to be involved with having somebody else get in. And we have the same situation that we had for the last long period of years.
- [01:12]
Justin
So many questions raised by what he said at that news conference. Number one, of course, what happens in Venezuela itself and to the Venezuelan people. But number two, what does it mean for law? What does it mean for international law? What does it mean for the United States position in the world? And what does it mean for Donald Trump's coalition, this coalition of people who elected him thinking that he would not involve the United States in foreign Wars? Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT AmericasT from BBC News.
- [01:44]
Fox News Correspondent
When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes.
- [01:46]
Anthony
Sir, right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir.
- [01:50]
Fox News Correspondent
We are the sickest country in the world.
- [01:52]
Anthony
Oh dear.
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Justin
Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.
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Donald Trump
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [02:08]
Justin
Hello, it's Justin at home in South.
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Anthony
London and it's Anthony at home in Arlington, Virginia. Hey, Justin.
- [02:15]
Justin
Very good to talk to you, Anthony, and good to be doing another of these emergency podcasts. I just. Can we start, I suppose, by just saying where we are time wise? So it's 3 o' clock in the afternoon in London and people here very much still trying to make sense, I suppose, of what has happened. And European leaders including Keir Starmer, kind of scrambling to find what they would regard as a reaction to all of this. That doesn't upset Donald Trump too much, but also keeps them within the parameters of what they thought at least was European law or international law until at least recently. So let's work out first how we got here, what actually happened, because the details are pretty extraordinary, aren't they?
- [02:58]
Anthony
They are extraordinary. It was a coordinated effort. Air Land and sea by the US Military, with all of those forces they had built up in the southern Caribbean. And they essentially knocked out the air defenses of Venezuela. Went into Caracas, found the compound where Nicolas Maduro had been with his wife. And they had been training on this compound. They knew where it was. Apparently they had a source on the inside that told him he was there. Special Forces. A team of Special Forces went in there, grabbed him and his wife, loaded them onto helicopters, flew them to a helicopter ship off the coast, flew them from there to Guantanamo Bay, put them on a plane and took him to New York. It was a remarkable steam series of events and a carefully laid out plan apparently worked out over months to do this. And there were no American casualties, some injuries, but no deaths. And no American military hardware was significantly damaged.
- [03:57]
Justin
Yeah, and the thing that really struck me about it is the degree of planning and it reminded me in many respects of what they did with Osama bin Laden back in Obama's time in power. Cause it's the. The groundwork that has to be done, isn't it? So you've got this kind of. They actually built a mock up, didn't they, of the compound, and they sent CIA operatives who were keeping an eye on him for some time. So, you know, there's something about Donald Trump, isn't it? On the one hand, we think of him as being impulsive and capricious, and he is both of those things, it's fair to say, and also, in a sense, unserious sometimes about the things that he wants to achieve. And yet this seems like something he really did want to achieve and has wanted to achieve it for some time.
- [04:51]
Anthony
Right. This was months of planning. As you mentioned, the compound was built in Kentucky and they were training there. And then there were also practice missions being run in the Caribbean. Once it got closer to this, the CIA, as you mentioned, was on the ground in Venezuela for months. And the US doesn't even have an embassy in Venezuela right now. So they were there without any kind of diplomatic protection. So it was risky for them to be on the ground. But all of this was set up and then apparently Donald Trump signed off on it in late December. And then they were just waiting for a combination of good weather and Maduro to be in this one location where they had trained for. And that is when ultimately, Trump pulled the trigger on Friday night, gave the final authorization. And all of this took place overnight in the early hours of Saturday morning. So those of us here in the U.S. and Washington, D.C. woke up Saturday morning to see that our phones had exploded with all the news of what was happening. Actually, Donald Trump talked about it for the first time, not in the press conference that we heard a little clip of earlier, but with Fox News. Here is Donald Trump calling into Fox News a few hours before that press conference on Saturday.
- [06:05]
Fox News Correspondent
We were going to do this four days ago, but the weather was not perfect. The weather has to be perfect. And we had just the perfect weather and we said go. And I'll tell you, it's. It was just amazing. And what was he doing? He was in a very highly guarded, like a fortress actually. He was in a fortress. It had steel doors, it had what they call a safety space where it's, you know, solid steel all around. He didn't get that space closed. He was trying to get into it, but he got bum rushed so fast that he didn't get into that. We were prepared. We had, you know, massive blow torches and everything else that you need to get through that steel, but we didn't need it.
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Justin
And just to kind of emphasize the extent of this operation, he had been rotating, hadn't he? Between I think six or eight, according to the New York Times, six or eight separate locations. Maduro so hadn't spent a night in the same house two nights running. And he had quite a few of these homes he went between. So the CIA people who were on the ground had been watching him and got a kind of sense of the pattern. But there was only one compound that they'd practiced to attack. So they had to wait until he got to that compound. In other words, all of this is not off the cuff by any means. I mean it is the complete opposite of that. It really is a well planned and it seems incredibly well executed thing. And then we get to that incredible picture that then emerged of Maduro blindfold, handcuffed on, on board a warship, and then other images that have emerged of him as well. I mean it just as these operations go and you think back to the various operations that have been around the world through time to capture individual leaders and take them out of their countries, this is going to go down in history actually, isn't it? At least initially. And we'll get to some skepticism about it in a second.
- [08:16]
Anthony
Right. You could easily see how this could go sideways. A helicopter crashes, there are American casualties. Maduro ends up being able to escape his compound or go into the safe room where he was trying to get to with these big metal doors and then it taking much longer to wrangle him out. And while that raid on Osama bin Laden is a good example of how things can go well and have gone well in the past. You don't have to go back too far to see how things could go really wrong. I mean, you remember the Iranian hostage crisis, where Jimmy Carter ordered a rescue mission, where a helicopter crashed and nothing went off the way it should have been. There were American deaths and the hostages were still in the embassy in Tehran. It was a horrible embarrassment for Jimmy Carter, or even a little more recently, the plan to get Manuel Noriega, the Panamanian leader who George H.W. bush launched a military operation to arrest. Very similar circumstances, actually to arrest him on drug charges and bring him to the United States. Well, you know, we sent the military in there and weren't able to get him in the initial wave. He ended up at, I believe, the Vatican Embassy. And there was a standoff for weeks as the US Military waited for him to come out and eventually did. But it was a much more kind of a muddled mess. This was precision, and it was over in a matter of hours. So the combination of preparation, planning, and good fortune and a willingness by Donald Trump to really roll the dice and take a chance on this.
- [09:49]
Justin
Yeah. So Maduro and his wife, held in a detention center now in Brooklyn, facing, we hear, drug trafficking charges. Which brings us then to the reasons why, Anthony, doesn't it? Why. Why now? And why him? And what the specific issue is that Donald Trump, number one, is using as a reason publicly to do it. But then possibly we might explore as well some other reasons that there might be that he's not so public about. So on the face of this, it's about drugs, isn't it?
- [10:25]
Anthony
That's what Donald Trump and the Trump administration has been saying for months. They say that Maduro is a kingpin, that he's running this massive drug operation out of Venezuela. Also accuses him, Trump has directly accused him of encouraging Venezuelans to come to the United States. He says he's opened up his insane asylums and his prisons and sent the worst Venezuelans to the United States. Again, no evidence of this and no real evidence that he is central in a kind of a global drug operation, particularly not involved in fentanyl production, which is one of the things that the Trump administration has accused him of on one of the biggest drug problems here in the United States. If you look at the indictment that was unsealed for Maduro and his wife, actually what the indictment kind of grounds itself on is cocaine trafficking as well as arms trafficking or arms violations. So it doesn't even the official reason why he is being charged in New York doesn't quite jibe with some of the explanations that the Trump administration has made.
- [11:33]
Justin
Yeah, it's interesting about the other reasons then, isn't it? So, I mean, the obvious one, and in a sense, Trump himself was pretty open about this. We should listen to him in a second. But the question of oil and the longstanding suggestion from Donald Trump that actually the way that the Venezuelan oil industry was nationalized was disadvantageous to the United States because the United States initially helped, through its private companies, helped build that industry up. So that is another beef, isn't it? If I could put it like that. And that's a kind of open one, because he did mention it at the press conference. Let's listen to what he said about oil.
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Donald Trump
As everyone knows, the oil business in Venezuela has been a bust, a total bust. For a long period of time, they were pumping almost nothing by comparison to what they could have been pumping and what could have taken place. We're going to have our very large United States oil companies, the biggest anywhere in the world, go in, spend billions of dollars, fix the badly broken infrastructure, the oil infrastructure, and start making money for the country. We're going to be rebuilding. And we're not spending money. The oil companies are going to go in, they're going to spend money, they're going to. We're going to take back the oil that, frankly, we should have taken back a long time ago. A lot of money is coming out of the ground. We're going to get reimbursed for all of that. We're going to get reimbursed for everything that we spend, use that money in Venezuela. And the biggest beneficiary are going to be the people of Venezuela. And also, I can't stress this strongly enough, the people that got thrown out of Venezuela that are now in the United States, and frankly, some want to stay and some probably want to go back. Yes, yeah.
- [13:27]
Anthony
Making money for the country and also making money for American oil companies and for the United States. Because Trump has said that oil revenue is going to help bankroll some of these reconstruction efforts. Where have we heard that before? That then, you know, this operation will essentially pay for itself with oil revenue, which has, you know, caused a lot of critics to say, you know, here we go, blood for oil. Or, you know, this is just another US Adventure to try to secure oil supplies, much like what we saw in the invasion of Iraq 20, 25 years ago.
- [13:59]
Justin
He also mentioned at the news conference, and this, I think, Goes to another thing that he's not suggesting. This is the reason, the central reason, but it sure comes into it, doesn't it, that there are millions of Venezuelans and this is again, factually the case. Millions of Venezuelans have left Venezuela because it is at the moment under Maduro, pretty awful place to live. And many of them have settled in the United States. And there was a sort of suggestion from him at that news conference that, well, hey, maybe Venezuela's place, they might like to go back. I mean, he said they would want to go back. It didn't say necessarily they would force them out. But this has been something we've talked about, Anthony, repeatedly, haven't we, that when it comes to deportations of people in the United States, the Venezuelans, most of them are under this slightly emergency legislation, aren't they, which allows them to stay temporarily. But this is a pretty large group of people who could be leaving the US and when it comes to telling the MAGA base that this is something that should be important to them, it strikes me that that potentially could become really quite a big deal.
- [15:07]
Anthony
Yeah. And, you know, we're talking hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans in the United States, but a lot of them are at this point, one, celebrating the fact that Maduro is gone because they did view him as a dictator. And the reason they left for many of them was because of, as you mentioned, those conditions, economic, social, political conditions in Venezuela. But some of them also are wondering, are they going to be forced back now, is this just the first step of having towards having their protected status, temporary protected status, revoked by the Trump administration? But I was struck in that press conference, One, yes, Talking about immigration again, two, directly talking about oil, because that hadn't been pushed forward as a justification for the buildup of the United States outside of Venezuela over the past few months, and then direct talk about removing Maduro and regime change. Because the Trump administration, when they had been talking to Congress, when in their public statements had said time and time again, no, we're not doing this for regime change. We're doing this because Venezuela is pushing all these drugs out and we're protecting the United States and we're blowing up these boats off the coast because of all these drugs that are heading to the United States. But there we are, Donald Trump in that press conference saying oil, saying regime change. I mean, it was definitely honest. If nothing else, he was very open about, you know, what he saw as the motivations.
- [16:37]
Justin
And then saying something that Steve Bannon, the great MAGA leader, former adviser of Course, to Trump, it's a bit more informal now, but very much a big figure still in this world. I was listening to his podcast. In fact, I listened to the Trump press conference on Steve Bannon's podcast. And at the end of it, Bannon uses the word bombshell. He says, you know, he's very approving of the success of the operation, at least in the short term, and the bravery of the military territory and all the rest of it. But then he says words to the effect of goodness. The president has dropped a bit of a bombshell there. And that is over this, which we should listen to now, which addresses the issue of what happens in Venezuela now and who runs it.
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Anthony
Mr. President, does the U.S. running the.
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Justin
Country mean that U.S. troops will be on the ground? How will that work?
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Donald Trump
Well, you know, they always say boots on the ground. Oh, so we're not afraid of boots on the ground if we have to have we had boots on the ground last night at a very high level, actually. We're not afraid of it. We don't mind saying it, but we're going to make sure that that country is run properly. We're not doing this in vain. This is not, this is a very dangerous attack. This is an attack that could have gone very, very badly. Could have gone very badly. We're going to run the country, right? It's going to run very judiciously, very fairly. It's going to make a lot of money. We're going to give money to the people. We're going to reimburse people that were taken advantage of. We're going to take care of everybody.
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Anthony
Are you explaining the exact mechanism by.
- [18:12]
Justin
Which you're going to run the country?
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Anthony
Are you going to designate a US Official to coordinate?
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Donald Trump
It's all being done right now. We're designating people, we're talking to people, we're designating various people, and we're going to let you know who those people are.
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Anthony
What's the group you mentioned that would run Venezuela?
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Donald Trump
It's largely going to be, for a period of time, the people that are standing right behind me, we're going to be running it, we're going to be bringing it back. It's a, it's a dead, you know, I talk about a dead country. A year and a half ago, we were a dead country. Now we're the hottest country anywhere in the world.
- [18:44]
Anthony
You. Are you saying that Secretary Hegseth and Rubio are going to be running Venezuela.
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Justin
And will you be sending in US Military?
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Donald Trump
They're going to be that's working with the people of Venezuela to make sure that we have Venezuela. Right. Because for us to just leave, who's going to take over? I mean, there is nobody to take over.
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Anthony
Are you going to work with vice president of Venezuela or how do you foresee the relationship going to say?
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Donald Trump
She was just sworn in, but she was, as you know, picked by Maduro. So Marco is working on that directly. Just had a conversation with her, and she's essentially willing to do what we think is necessary to make Venezuela great again. Very simple.
- [19:22]
Justin
Oh, my goodness.
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Anthony
I mean, yeah, a lot, A lot to unpack.
- [19:26]
Justin
A lot to unpack there. I mean, number one, just the, the sheer shock that will be felt across the MAGA world at the idea that he is now just insouciantly saying, yeah, we can, we can run it. We're not afraid of boots on the ground. And also we can run it. And you think back to Iraq and that guy Paul Bremer, who they put in charge for a bit and all the rest of it. And it was all going to be wonderful and everyone was going to be happy. And there we go. And as you say, Anthony, it was all going to be paid for by the oil and, oh, my goodness, it didn't work out like that. And people, you know, this is the prime thing, isn't it, that Donald Trump used to point out, in a sense, is why he came to power in 2017, 16 in the Republican Party, why knocked all the others for six when he was doing those primaries, because he said, you're all idiots. You all supported the Iraq war and look where it got us. And now, I mean, I was really struck by that language, as you could hear. The reporters, too, weren't they?
- [20:32]
Anthony
Yeah. Donald Trump had criticized the Bush administration for nation building, and now here he is talking about how we are essentially going to rebuild Venezuela. We're going to be running the country. He said the people behind me and the people behind him were Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, Stephen Miller, who is the Deputy Chief of staff of the White House, Dan Kaine, who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They're going to be people running the country, I guess. Paul Bremer's probably in retirement. They can't dig him up from wherever he is now. But that was stunning. The idea of casually saying boots on the ground is fine when he would boast about bringing American troops home, that was stunning. I mean, I was trying to think, because my job was on the ground when I Heard all that because I had been saying before, it's like Donald Trump seems to have no interest in an extended involvement in Venezuela leading up to that press conference. And afterwards I'm deleting whole paragraphs of my article. Totally wrong. And I'm not sure what was more stunned with the Mamdani love fest in the White House a few months ago or, you know, Donald Trump standing up there and saying the United States was nation building, but just another example of how you can't, can't count on Donald Trump and every time you think you have him figured out, he will do a U turn and leave you just kind of slack jawed.
- [22:01]
Justin
I just want to say it's not the most important thing, but it is worth noting whenever Anthony gets anything occasionally slightly wrong because it's not often and it's just, it's wonderful to hear and I'm not necessarily saying that we approve the, the operation because of it, but my goodness, yeah, it's, it's, it is one. And, and the thing is, you know, to be a bit more serious about it, I, I think what you had said, which is he doesn't seem to have any obvious enthusiasm for boots on the ground or indeed political cover for it was, was also the view of pretty much the whole MAGA world, wasn't it? And it is going to be fascinating. I mean, we don't know yet, do we? The rest of Steve Bannon's podcast, I may say, which I listened to for some time because it does go on and on, but, but you know, they were desperately, desperately proud of what the troops had achieved. I mean, what's your take on this, Anthony? It just seems to me that you're going to be quite torn if you're a big Trump supporter between huge pride at the fact that America could do this and has done it and the audacity and the success of the immediate operation. But that, that then clashing in your mind with the, the intention that you had that Trump's coming to power would mean you didn't do this stuff anymore.
- [23:18]
Anthony
I know. And Trump in that clip, ending it with, you know, they're going to make Venezuela great again. I mean, that has to just be super jarring for people who think make America great again means focusing on domestic issues and not getting bogged down or heavily involved in foreign affairs. I mean, one of the first things I did was look at Marjorie Taylor Greene's X feed to see what she had to say and she posted a very lengthy post about what she saw as wrong with this Marjorie Taylor Greene, of course, the former avid Trump supporter who broke with him over foreign policy and the Epstein files and domestic policy as well. And she points out, first of all that what we talked about, that fentanyl is not, that fentanyl isn't a big problem in Venezuela, that if you really want to address the drug crisis in the US you have to look elsewhere. She mentions the fact that Donald Trump had just pardoned that former Honduran president for drug trafficking who had been convicted in an American court. And now here Maduro is being charged in drug trafficking and that that is some sort of a justification for all of this, the hypocrisy there. And then she hits on how this isn't make America great again, that she and others in the movement thought that Donald Trump campaigned on paring back the military industrial complex, not getting involved in foreign causes. And she concludes by saying the American discussion, disgust with our own government's never ending military aggression and support for foreign wars is justified because we are forced to pay for it. And both parties, Republicans and Democrats, always keep the Washington military machine funded and going. This is what many in Magoth thought they voted to end. Boy, were we wrong. So there is going to be some criticism within and I think whether it turns out to be lasting, significant criticism depends on what happens next and whether this becomes a kind of entangled long term US Involvement in Venezuela, or if it's like the bombing in Iran where there were people upset about the United States using military to bomb Iranian nuclear targets, but then it all kind of died down when it turned out to be a one off.
- [25:33]
Justin
Yeah, but I mean, I just, I think the big difference is that they now seem to have got themselves a country to run with. That comes all manner of risks, including the risk that the opposite happens of what they want, which is for Venezuelans living in the United States to go back to Venezuela, happily go back and say, okay, we're going to run the place now, and for that to be a success all round. Actually, what if the opposite happens? What if there is genuine violence, civil unrest, then actually more Venezuelans come to the United States, which isn't impossible, is it?
- [26:08]
Anthony
Yeah, that is very possible. I mean, there isn't a clear path forward for how to restore order in a country that, you know, the economy is in shambles, the political culture has been corrupted by decades of dictatorship. Yes, the Vice President is in charge for the moment, but the Vice President came out hours after Donald Trump said that we will be able to work with her and said, you need to return Maduro. He's the real president. We're not going to tolerate imperialists getting involved in Venezuelan governing. And then Trump also shrugged off the woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize, who was kind of the face of opposition in Venezuela, as she wasn't popular enough to run the country.
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Donald Trump
I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect to be the leader.
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Anthony
Didn't even mention the guy who won or should have won, who is alleged to have beaten Maduro in the most recent presidential election, but was stolen from him. So you had all of these elements here about, you know, all these threads for different people who could run the country. And Trump doesn't really seem to have that deeper knowledge.
- [27:27]
Justin
I was in. In D.C. during Iraq, the initial invasion. George W. Bush on the aircraft carrier. You remember, Mission Accomplished. Yeah, all of that stuff. The finding of Saddam Hussein. I remember being in the D.C. office when they found him. We got him, someone said. And then, you know, as we all know, it just unraveled and unraveled and unraveled and unraveled in ways that probably should have been foreseen to some extent. But really, crucially, Anthony, also unraveled in ways that probably couldn't have been foreseen. And that if you're a MAGA supporter, that's really what's worrying you now, isn't it?
- [28:09]
Anthony
Right? That old Donald Rumsfeld, who was the defense secretary under Bush, his line about known knowns, known unknowns. And the thing you really have to worry about are the unknown unknowns, the things that you don't know that could come up there and derail your plans.
- [28:23]
Justin
I tell you what, Anthony, who's next? I mean, if you're the Cuban regime or the Colombians. Are you nervous?
- [28:30]
Anthony
I think it would have to be. I mean, especially Cuba. And Marco Rubio said that if he was a government official in Cuba, he would be nervous because the United States has shown now a willingness to use military force to topple disfavored dictatorships. Trump has also spoken about Cuba. Even though the Cuban president was democratically elected, he is a critic of the Trump administration. And you could see how instability in Venezuela could spread to Venezuela's neighbor, Colombia, which has had to deal with a massive influx of refugees from that country. And if things really go badly in Venezuela, they'll have to deal with even more of one. So I was struck by something that Donald Trump said and it's something we've talked about on this podcast in the past, about how the Western Hemisphere is the United States home sphere of influence, that the United States is exercising its military power and political authority in the Western Hemisphere because this is essentially our neighborhood. And he referenced the Monroe Doctrine, which is that doctrine dating back 200 plus years, that foreign European countries should not meddle in the Western Hemisphere, that this was the United States is kind of dominion. And then he rebranded it the Donro Doctrine and said that the United States was going to, one, make sure that its neighbors were secure and two, make sure that we have a regular energy, a steady energy supply in places like Venezuela. That is the new Donro doctrine. And you could see that doctrine in theory applied to places like Cuba next.
- [30:15]
Justin
And then more widely, Anthony, if you think of Moscow and Beijing and Tehran, never mind what people are saying publicly about it, what are they thinking behind the scenes? Because it seems to me on the one hand they're kind of getting permission of their own to do what they want to do, but on the other hand, they're also getting quite a lesson in American power, which they might have felt recently has been waning.
- [30:35]
Anthony
Yeah, the Chinese condemned this right off the bat. And there has been speculation that, that this does give both China and Russia kind of the, the carte blanche, as you said, to, to operate in their own spheres, whether it's Ukraine for Russia or Taiwan for China. And there have been members of Congress, Republican members of Congress who have expressed that concern. But you know, it was a military success for the United States, as you say, and projecting American power thousands of miles from, from the continental United States. It was a good display of that. Although if I was China, I don't know if I would be as confident in the United States could do something like that half a world away. It's a reshaping of the world in the way that Trump sees it. And I think China and Russia are going to adjust and they may adjust in ways that probably make them happy.
- [31:31]
Justin
Okay, Anthony, it's fast moving. So we've dealt with the situation as it is, but it's not going to be the same in 24 hours, is it? And we're going to have to deal with it again then.
- [31:39]
Anthony
A fast moving story indeed. And we do want to hear from you on it. What do you think about what has happened in this historic weekend? You can reach us on WhatsApp 443-301-2390, 480. You can email us americastbc.co.uk you can always reach us on social media media at ameracast and on Discord. If you want to find that, go to the link in the description of this podcast. That's it for now, but we will talk to you soon. See you all later. Bye.
- [32:30]
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