What did we learn about Epstein from the Clintons?

Summary

Americast (BBC News)
Episode: What did we learn about Epstein from the Clintons?
Date: March 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Americast dives into several pressing but under-reported stories in US politics beyond the ongoing Iran war. The hosts—Justin Webb and Anthony Zurcher—cover the primary election results in Texas and their implications for the Senate, analyze continued tensions in Minneapolis following controversial ICE shootings, examine the uncertain future of CNN in the US media landscape, and, most notably, break down what was learned from the unprecedented congressional testimony of Bill and Hillary Clinton regarding their connections to Jeffrey Epstein. The episode is packed with on-the-ground insight, political analysis, and candid reflections from the BBC’s seasoned correspondents.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Texas Senate Primaries & Political Shifts

[02:52 – 10:54]

• Democratic Upset: James Tallarico, a young, unity-focused legislator, won the Democratic Senate primary, defeating firebrand Rep. Jasmine Crockett.
• Open Primary Dynamics: Texas allows open primaries; a notable surge in new and cross-party voters participated—about 400,000 first-time Democratic primary voters.
• Voter Engagement: More voters participated in the Democratic primary than the Republican, signaling rising Democratic enthusiasm.
  • Quote:
    "The number of independents and Republicans who voted in this Democratic primary is unprecedented. This, this is proof that there is something happening in Texas."
    – James Tallarico [04:04]
• Electability vs. Progressivism: Tallarico’s broader appeal (center-left, anti-corruption, religious values) resonated more than Crockett’s progressive activism.
• Republican Turmoil: The GOP faces a bloody runoff between incumbent John Cornyn and embattled Ken Paxton, marked by accusations, costly campaigning, and deep party rifts.
  • Quote:
    "There's a Republican strategist... who compared this primary campaign to The Red Wedding scene in Game of Thrones..."
    – Anthony Zurcher [08:31]
• Democratic Caution: Despite enthusiasm, hosts recall Beto O’Rourke’s near-miss and caution against overconfidence given Texas’s GOP history.

2. ICE Shootings & Kristi Noem Under Fire

[13:35 – 21:48]

• Incident Recap: ICE agents shot and killed activists Alex Pretty and Renee Goode during a hardline immigration crackdown in Minneapolis; Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem faces Senate grilling for her response.
• Parental Pain & Accountability: Sen. Amy Klobuchar challenges Noem for labeling the victims as ‘domestic terrorists’ without evidence.
  • Quote:
    "One of the most hurtful things they could ever imagine was said by you about their son. Do you have anything you want to say to Alex Preddy’s parents?"
    – Senator Klobuchar [15:44]
• Noem’s Position: She deflects, claiming reliance on initial reports, avoiding specific apologies, and appearing on “thin ice” without Trump’s clear backing.
• Bipartisan Criticism: Even retiring Republicans (e.g., Sen. Thom Tillis) chastise Noem for her handling, organizational failures, and for casting a pall on ICE.
  • Quote:
    "We're beginning to get the American people to think that deporting people is wrong. It's the exact opposite. The way you're going about deporting them is wrong."
    – Senator Tillis [18:24]
• Ongoing Fallout: With no clear resolution or justice for the victims’ families, the Minneapolis immigrant community remains deeply affected.

3. The Uncertain Future of CNN

[21:48 – 28:36]

• Corporate Takeover: CNN, as part of Warner Brothers, is now being acquired by Paramount (which also owns CBS).
• Editorial Concerns: After CBS’s noted rightward editorial shift (including hiring Bari Weiss), CNN journalists fear similar political realignment under Paramount and its pro-Trump owner, David Ellison.
  • Quote:
    "Now... the guy in charge, David Ellison... makes no bones about the fact that he’s pally with Donald Trump. He likes Donald Trump. And that makes people at CNN worried."
    – Justin Webb [25:44]
• Commercial Pressures: Declining cable subscriptions and costly news production put CNN’s business model at risk; streaming efforts have been turbulent.
• Journalistic Impact: The hosts reflect on the challenges when corporate interests potentially override journalistic integrity, referencing media history with The Washington Post.

4. Clinton and Epstein: Congressional Testimony

[28:36 – 36:14]

• Historic Testimonies: Bill and Hillary Clinton testify before Congress about their connections to Jeffrey Epstein.
  • Bill Clinton: Questioned about a photo in a hot tub with a redacted woman, claims he was at the hotel by the Sultan of Brunei’s invite, insists all present were part of his party, and denies any illicit activity.
    • Quote:
      "I sat in the hot tub for five minutes. I did, or whatever it was, and I got up and went to bed."
      – Bill Clinton [29:58]
    • On Trump:
      "He never, the president, never, this is 20 something years ago, never said anything to make me think he was involved in anything improper with regard to Epstein either."
      – Bill Clinton [30:59]
  • Hillary Clinton: Described as more confrontational and sharp, directly exchanging barbs with Republicans.
• Political Motives & Fallout: The Clintons press for equal scrutiny for all public figures, signaling that if Democrats retake the House, they’ll use subpoena power to call figures like Donald Trump and Howard Lutnick (Commerce Secretary) about their Epstein ties.
  • Quote:
    "You could see with the evidence already in the files tying Donald Trump... some of those questions are going to be uncomfortable, as uncomfortable as the ones that Clinton had to answer."
    – Anthony Zurcher [32:26]
• Precedent: The hosts stress that this sets new expectations for transparency from high-profile figures, with the potential for further seismic revelations in the run-up to the midterms.
• Partisan Dynamics: Democrats plan to use oversight powers if they regain the House; ex-GOP lawmakers sidelined in primaries may even side with Democrats for further disclosures.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "This is proof that there is something happening in Texas."
  – James Tallarico on his primary win [04:04]
• "This primary campaign [is like] The Red Wedding scene in Game of Thrones..."
  – Republican strategist, via Anthony Zurcher [08:31]
• "I did not call him a domestic terrorist. I said it appeared to be an incident of..."
  – Kristi Noem, walking back her statement [16:36]
• "We're beginning to get the American people to think that deporting people is wrong. ... The way you're going about deporting them is wrong."
  – Sen. Thom Tillis [18:24]
• "He never, the president, never... said anything to make me think he was involved in anything improper with regard to Epstein either."
  – Bill Clinton on Donald Trump [30:59]
• "If the Democrats win, get ready, it's going to get wild, as they say next year when Democrats start to flex their subpoena power and look to turn the tables on the Republicans."
  – Anthony Zurcher [34:09]

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Segment Timestamps

• Texas Senate Primary – [02:52–10:54]
• ICE Shootings & Noem Hearing – [13:35–21:48]
• CNN Ownership & Media Landscape – [21:48–28:36]
• Clinton/Epstein Testimony & Revelations – [28:36–36:14]

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Conclusion

The episode provides an incisive look at important but overshadowed news—offering clarity on ongoing political shifts in Texas, deepening controversies around immigration enforcement, the tenuous future of major news outlets like CNN, and the thickening plotlines around the Clintons, Epstein, and calls for transparency in public life. Expect ripple effects from these stories, especially as the 2026 midterms approach and with the possibility of new investigations should power shift in Congress.

Listeners are left with a sense that, while the headlines may be dominated by conflict abroad, America’s most consequential reckonings may play out in committee rooms, newsrooms, and, potentially, the courts at home.

Transcript

[BBC Podcast Announcer]

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[Justin Webb]

We've had a text from Amanda in Devon. She says, I know there's so much happening in the USA and it's hard to cover everything. I wonder if you might find time to do an hour's podcast on the topics that fall under the radar. Good idea. What else is going on in America apart from the war with Iran? What important news stories are we overlooking? Anthony and I are going to go into some of them, but just to give you a taste, there has been a hugely important primary election in Texas which could have a real impact on who eventually wins the Senate seat there in the midterms and that in itself is pretty important. Also, what is going on in Minneapolis after all the violence that there was there? And what's happening to CNN, the global news network? Is it finished? Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.

[Anthony Zurcher]

AmericasT from BBC News.

[Justin Webb]

You hear that sound?

[Bill Clinton]

Oh, I think when I hear that sound it reminds me of money.

[Justin Webb]

We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.

[RK0 Proof Spirits Advertiser]

This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it.

[Anthony Zurcher]

This guy has Trump derangement Syndrome. I have four words for you. Turn the volume up.

[Justin Webb]

Hello, it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And it's Anthony back in my home state of Texas. I'm in Dallas, Texas.

[Justin Webb]

Just before we get going, Anthony, we should say we are going to talk a lot about Iran on the podcast this week. We will get back to the war tomorrow. And if you want to hear those episodes, do go and find them on BBC Sounds wherever you get your podcasts. But let us start today with where you are because we've already talked about Texas. We've whetted people's appetites and we've got news for them. Or you have.

[Anthony Zurcher]

We have news. We have results. At least in one of those closely watched Senate primaries here in Texas. Remember, the Republicans currently control the US Senate by three seats and Democrats desperately need to flip a seat in a state like Texas in order to take back control of that chamber. Well, we had primary votes yesterday. And on the Democratic side, James Tallarico, he's the young 30something state legislator, former Christian seminary, former school teacher, who had been preaching unity and moving beyond partisan divisions and anti corruption. He defeated. He defeated Jasmine Crockett, the Texas congresswoman from here in Dallas, who had been much more confrontational, had been on cable news all the time picking fights with Republicans. So at least in this race, we can say that voters here in Texas opted for the big tent candidate, one who is trying to expand the party's reach, rather than one who was trying to drum up support from the base and turn out the diehards.

[Justin Webb]

Let's hear what he had to say on Monday night when it became obvious that he'd won.

[James Tallarico]

We launched this underdog campaign six months ago in my hometown of Round Rock, Texas. And since then, and since then, tens of thousands of Texans have shown up to rally with us in every corner of the state from Beaumont to El Paso, from Amarillo to Brownsville and everywhere in between. The number of young people who showed up to vote in this election is unprecedented. The number, the number of Texans who have never voted before but showed up in, in this election is unprecedented. The number of independents and Republicans who voted in this Democratic primary is unprecedented. This, this is proof that there is something happening in Texas.

[Justin Webb]

And just before we get to what that something might be, Anthony, just to make it plain, so he's saying lots of people voted in the Democratic primary in Texas who were not necessarily Democrats, and that is because they are allowed to in Texas. This wasn't some fakery going on, was it?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Right, exactly. You don't have to register for partisan affiliation in Texas. You can go and show up and vote at whichever party primary you want. And so in the early voting numbers I saw, about 400,000 people in Texas were voting in a Democratic primary for the first time.

[Justin Webb]

That's a lot, isn't it, for a primary?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. Overall, we had more than a million people, million and a half, I think, voting in the Democratic primary, more voting for the Democrats in that primary than voted for the Republicans in the Republican primaries, which is the first time that's happened since 2020. And you remember in 2020, there was a very active, ongoing Democratic race, primary race for president, where Donald Trump was the clear nominee for the Republicans. So the interest and engagement on the Democratic side was much higher there. Here we had two contested Senate primaries and still more Democrats showed up and voted than Republicans. So if you're looking for signs of voter enthusiasm and talking to Democratic activists and politicians over the past few days, they will certainly say this. There were signs that Democrats are engaged and that they are turning out. This isn't the only data point we've had so far, but it's now one of the bigger ones.

[Justin Webb]

And the choice that they made is interesting, isn't it? Because we compared the two candidates when you and I talked about them before and they both got their strengths. But she, Jasmine Crockett, much more of a firebrand, much more on the progressive left of the party, much less in a way likely to appeal across Texas. I think that's a fair point to make about her. And him the complete opposite. Much more of a kind of middle of the road appealing candidate, isn't he? And the primary voters who want the Democrat to win have opted for him.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. The first thing I'll say is that when I was talking to voters outside of polling places yesterday, Democratic voters, one thing they would tell me almost universally is they liked both candidates. They liked Jasmine Crockett. They liked that she stands up for principles that she takes on Republicans in Washington. They also like the message that Talarico presented, one of reclaiming religious values from the evangelical right, of reaching across to disaffected Republicans and centrists. Clearly, the argument that Talarico might be more electable, that having a fresh face, a different kind of candidate that won over more voters here in Texas, particularly suburban voters, affluent white voters, college educated voters, but also rather pivotally, Hispanic voters. If you look at the Rio Grande Valley, if you look in San Antonio, if you look in areas that had large Hispanic populations, Talarico did much better than Jasmine Crockett. But the decision by about 53% to 46% overall, the decision of Texas Democrats was that Talarico is the candidate that they think is the one who can win in November.

[Justin Webb]

And the decision of Texas Republicans is to have a runoff, essentially, isn't it? And an expensive one and a bloody one, potentially shoot themselves in the foot before they've even got started.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. There's a Republican strategist I've spoken with before here in Texas who compared this primary campaign to The Red Wedding scene in Game of Thrones, which is a very famous scene from a television series where everyone got slaughtered at the end. It has been an ugly primary where John Cornyn, the incumbent who has been serving in the Senate since 2002, took to the airwaves with a record amount of campaign spending, $70 million on a Senate primary. And just savage Ken Paxton.

[Justin Webb]

Word of caution for Democrats, though, and I say this with some credentials, given that I spent quite a lot of time chasing a guy called Beto o' Rourke around Texas years ago when he was the great hope. And everyone said, oh, he's so handsome and lovely and he's going to appeal to all Texans and he's moderate in the middle of the road. And in the end. And he ran for that Senate seat, didn't he? And in the end, it kind of petered out. I mean, he came close. Ish. But it didn't quite work. So if they do select Cornyn, in the end, the Republicans, it's by no means a slam dunk, is it, to put it mildly, for the Democrats after all these years, to win nationwide, statewide, in Texas.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, I think that Democratic hopes hinge on Paxton winning that runoff because. And beating an incumbent is just hard, full stop. And I think a lot of Republicans would come home to Cornyn if he's the nominee, albeit maybe grudgingly, but they'll pick him over someone like Talarico. But if it's Paxton, with all that baggage I mentioned and the contrast between him and Talarico, the seminarian who talks about anti corruption and moving beyond partisan divisions, that's a contrast I think Democrats like. But you're right, when I was listening to that little clip we played of Tallarico, it sounded a lot like Beto O'. Rourke. And it has been 32 years since a Democrat won statewide in Texas. And I can think of multiple times where people here on the left told me, oh, you know, this next year is going to be the year we do it. And every single time they come up short. So maybe this time will be the difference for Democrats. There's certainly some hope here now, but, you know, I've seen this movie before.

[Justin Webb]

Well, what then? If the Republicans do pick Paxton, what is it about Paxton that makes him so. So beatable or makes the Democrats think he's so beatable?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Well, a lot of it is the political baggage he brings in. He is going through a messy divorce and there have been allegations of multiple infidelities. His wife has talked about him abandoning her. That's the grounds for the divorce, the indictment that he had for fraud charges. Although ultimately he settled that indictment in 2025 without admitting guilt, it still hung over his head. And he's the attorney general, he's the top law enforcement official in Texas. And then that impeachment, the impeachment that took place in 2023, it flew through the state legislature, which was controlled by Republicans. So it was his own partyrepublicans in his own party who wanted to kick him out on this obstruction of justice and bribery and not upholding the office of Attorney General. They were the ones who wanted to kick him out. And it was only after Donald Trump weighed in and offered his support for Paxton and people rallied around him, some Republicans rallied around him in the Texas Senate that he was acquitted and stayed in office. But, but it was by no means a slam dunk. And again, this would the knives had come out for him within his own party. So there are a lot of people in Texas, even Republicans, who are not Ken Paxton fans.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And just final brief thought. I think you believe that, that Trump now weighs in basically to, to put this to bed, as it were. Is that likely, do you think, goes for Corning just to say, okay, that's enough, boys?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because it's so close, it's still not clear who's going to win this. I mean, Paxton will have the wind that is back in a way, because these runoff elections, it only draws out the hardcore conservative voters, the people who are most fanatical about their candidate, the people who are the most anti establishment. And I think those are the kind of voters that will support Ken Paxton. So Paxton was up in New York when Trump was under trial. Paxton has been a, a loyal Trump soldier now for quite some time. He filed a brief calling for the Supreme Court to step in and stop the 2020 certification of Joe Biden. So that may be another reason why Trump would be reluctant to come in and tip his hand and support Cornyn, because he likes punishing critics and enemies and rewarding those who have been loyal through and through.

[Justin Webb]

Right enough. Texas.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Anthony, I could talk about this all day.

[Justin Webb]

We've got, we've had a lot of questions about Minneapolis and we ought to get to some of those or at least work out what's going on. Because actually there is in a sense, a development in the story. So the, the killings of Alex Pretty and Renee Goode by ICE agents in Minneapolis earlier in the year. Kristi Noem, the Homeland Security secretary, has been testifying hasn't she, before a Senate committee. We should explain, Anthony, why she is under so much pressure, what actually happened and why it is that it's coming to rebound on her, particularly.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Right. Well, she was one of the faces of this big immigration crackdown in Minnesota where there was a surge of thousands of immigration enforcement officials who were going door to door, essentially, and rounding up undocumented migrants and sending them off to detention centers. There was mass protests in Minneapolis from people on the left who were against this operation. And as you'll recall, two protesters were shot and killed by immigration enforcement officials, Alex Pretty and Renee Goode. And that generated a firestorm of criticism that the enforcement, the crackdown, the way this was taking place, was too militarized, was too violent. Kristi Noem had come out in both cases and suggested that these activists who were killed were domestic terrorists. And she was pressed in this hearing to one explain why all of this kind of immigration enforcement was necessary, but then also to explain her response to those killings and why she handled it the way she did.

[Justin Webb]

Let's listen to a bit of this exchange that she had with the Senate committee. So this is an exchange with Senator Amy Klobuchar, very senior Democrat, well known Democrat who represents Minnesota. And she's talking now to Kristi Noem

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

after the killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy. When I spoke to Alex's parents, they told me that you calling him a domestic terrorist. This was directly from them the day after he was killed. A nurse in our va, Alex, one of the most hurtful things they could ever imagine was said by you about their son. Do you have anything you want to say to Alex Preddy's parents?

[Kristi Noem]

We were relying in the hours after that incident that was so horrific on information we were getting from the ground.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

You wanted to say to the parents or to the family of Renee Goode after you called them domestic terrorists.

[Kristi Noem]

Imagine what they have gone through in the loss of their son and the loss of their family members.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

But how about specifically calling them domestic terrorists without any evidence of that?

[Kristi Noem]

Sir, Ma', am, I did not call him a domestic terrorist. I said it appeared to be an incident of.

[Senator Amy Klobuchar]

I think the parents saw it for what it was.

[Justin Webb]

And actually, Anthony, she did, didn't she, call him a domestic terrorist? And I just listening to that. When you think of sometimes senior people, administration people appearing before congressmen and women and senators, they sometimes wipe the floor with them. I mean, they sometimes make the senators look silly and are very punchy. I'm thinking about people like Marco Rubio. But actually this wasn't that, was it? She really did look as if she was in trouble. Is that because she's not quite sure that Donald Trump is still backing her?

[Anthony Zurcher]

I think there's a lot of speculation that he's not happy with how she has handled all of this and the way she's conducted herself as head of Homeland Security. I think maybe her being on thin ice, as opposed to someone like Pam Bondi, the attorney general, who was extremely combative, came out to a similar type of congressional hearing and pushed back vehemently and then was praised by Donald Trump almost immediately afterwards. Like you said, this didn't feel like that with Noem. And there hasn't been the kind of support that Bondi had from Trump. The sword is hanging over her head.

[Justin Webb]

And that wasn't the only uncomfortable moment for her, was it, Anthony? There was this absolute broadside from Thom Tillis, Republican senator. I mean, albeit he's retiring and he doesn't think much of Donald Trump, but he's a Republican senator from North Carolina who really laid into her on the subject of whether all of this actually is counterproductive.

[Senator Thom Tillis]

We're beginning to get the American people to think that deporting people is wrong. It's the exact opposite. The way you're going about deporting them is wrong. The fact that you can't admit to a mistake which looks like under investigation, it's going to prove that Ms. Good and Mr. Pretty probably should not have been shot in the face and in the back, law enforcement needs to learn from that. You don't protect them by not looking after the facts. Not only should the FBI be investigating it, but every single law enforcement agency in that jurisdiction should be invited to it. So our law enforcement officers do not have this palm cast upon them. One of the reasons why ICE officers are having threats and damn the people that threaten ICE officers, because so many of them are doing a good job, is because you've cast a pall on them by acting like we should investigate things differently. Officer involved shootings have a formula that we should go through every time, and we're not going through that formula. As a matter of fact, in Ms. Good's case, I think that they were even saying that maybe there wasn't even a need to do it in the doj. I hope that that's changed.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Tell us how you really feel, Senator. I mean, that is just a flavor. He went after her on her handling of hurricane relief in North Carolina as well. And he wasn't the only Republican who sharply questioned Noem. John Kennedy, a senator from Louisiana, he criticized Noem for spending $220 million on national TV ads where her face was prominently featured. That again, this is another reason why this hearing was different from say, Pam Bondi or like you mentioned, Marco Rubio. It's because there were Republicans in that room who were openly hostile to her as well. And that's just not a good sign for her long term position in the administration.

[Justin Webb]

Just a final thought about what went on and the killing of those two women. We had a big discussion, didn't we, immediately afterwards about what legal ramifications there were potentially for the officers involved. And at the time we didn't really come to any firm conclusions because I don't think there were firm conclusions to come to. But I think people would be interested in knowing what, if anything has happened since. And I must admit for me, I don't know. Do you know what is going on?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, I haven't heard much of anything coming out of this. We were told that the FBI was investigating that there internal federal investigations, but there have been no results posted, no announcements on it. In theory, maybe the families of the victims could bring some sort of a civil action, but that's a lot harder to do against federal law enforcement than it is say against a local police officer. So I think it's a good thing we're talking about this because Minneapolis in general and these killings has been subsumed by this flood of national and international news. But this is still a hot issue in Minneapolis. Immigration enforcement is still ongoing there. Even if it's been drawn down. The people are still picking up the pieces from this massive operation and the scars there and the lives changed are going to be changed for good. And it's going to take a long time for that community to recover.

[Justin Webb]

Right. At this point, if I could do impersonations, I would impersonate James Earl Jones and say this is cnn. But it doesn't sound the same, does it? That's very kind of you, Anthony, but it's not really very good. We're turning to CNN because, I mean it's iconic because it was the first really. And in America it's been important at various stages of its life, but around the world as well, it is this incredibly well known brand. And look, the BBC is also a well known brand. But there was a moment, I suppose in the early 1980s and particularly actually in the Gulf War, the first Gulf War, 1991. That was its moment, wasn't it? Bernard Shaw in there in Baghdad and This sense that the whole world was gathering together around cnn. And now the reason I'm yabbering on about CNN is its future is in real doubt, isn't it?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Right. It is part of the Warner Brothers corporate conglomerate, entertainment conglomerate, and it was just bought. It appears there's an acquisition that has been accepted by Paramount, Skydance, so it is going to become part of the Paramount empire. And the reason this is relevant is because Paramount has been hoovering up a variety of different media outlets. And one of its recent acquisitions was CBS and CBS News. And we have talked about before, Justin, the kind of changes that Paramount has brought to CBS News. Bringing in Bari Weiss, the conservative opinion columnist from the New York Times, who founded the Free Press. Editorial changes in the way CBS News has operated. And now the folks at cnn, a lot of people at CNN are wondering whether similar changes, pulling to the right, changing the news coverage are going to take place at that network as well, I should say.

[Justin Webb]

I'm Barry Weiss. She would deny that she's a conservative. I've spoken to her about these things personally. So I feel I should kind of give her a right of reply as it. Well, though it would be lovely to talk to her on the podcast and we should try to get her on at some stage. But I think what, what you say, which is absolutely right, is that she wants to draw the mainstream media to the right because she thinks that it is too far to the left. And I think she would absolutely accept that as a sort of descriptor of what she wants to do. And of course, she's in the process of doing it at cbs. And the big question now for CNN is, number one, can she do it there? And in which case, does CNN become what, a kind of pale shadow of Fox News? Is there even a commercial reason to do that? But also just in terms of costs, providing news for people is expensive. It's commercially not always the thing that you want to do. So if they do have one portal, which I think is very much her idea for everything, where you go for all the Paramount stuff and all the Warner Brothers stuff and you go for news as well, you can't imagine really these two brands, CBS and cnn, existing separately for that long, or even if they do, they're going to have the same staff working for them, essentially, Right?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. The corporate acquisitions, consolidating redundancies, cost cutting, these are all things that happen in the corporate world all the time. And you have to remember, they're not a huge audience for cnn. Millions of people a night. But but it does have an outsized impact on the American political conversation. It does have a broad reach of international coverage. It's one of the few places that international coverage is brought before an American audience. Yeah, it could very well change the kind of CNN we've gotten used to seeing for the past few decades.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, and now, you know, to be blunt about it, the guy in charge, David Ellison, son of Larry Ellison, the Oracle billionaire, is now properly in charge and makes no bones about the fact that he's pally with Donald Trump. He likes Donald Trump. And that makes people at CNN worried that there will be some political direction given to them. Cnn, of course, is worth saying is run at the moment by our former boss, Mark Thompson, former boss of the BBC, also former boss of the New York Times, incredibly successful boss of the New York Times, really turned it around commercially. And I wonder if Mark Thompson, who's pretty savvy about these things, might say to David Ellison and whoever takes over, look, hang on a second, we've got a commercially viable entity here, don't mess with it. In other words, there are perfectly good reasons why we are as we are because we still have an audience. And if that's the case, you know, possibly, possibly that would work. Although the other thing, Anthony, just occurs to me as I say that because the actual business model is going to down the tubes, isn't it? Because people are, people are cutting the cord as they put it. People aren't having cable anymore, they're just wanting streaming stuff. And cnn, it's starting doing that, isn't it? But that's a tough market too.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, it tried, right? It tried to develop its own streaming service and then when it was bought by Discovery, Warner Brothers, they scrapped that plan after massive investments by CNN to have this online streaming presence. And now it's moving from Warner Brothers Discovery to Paramount. It's just being pulled in all these different directions so hard enough to try to navigate the new media environment and new audience way audience interact with the news and want to get their information without having different corporate overlords with their own agendas and their own concerns. I mean, I think one thing we've seen, and we talked about the Washington Post and we've talked about CBS and now we're talking about cnn. The one thing we've seen is that yes, these media organizations have a business model, they try to make money, but it's not always the only concern with the larger corporations. I think Jeff Bezos may have been less concerned with the Washington Post as a money making operation. Than with the adverse impacts the Washington Post's coverage of Donald Trump was having on his larger corporate ambitions. I think you could probably suggest that the same thing could play out with Paramount with CNN and has played out with Paramount with cbs, that when these big corporations own media companies, the concerns that the big corporations have are much different than the concerns that people who are solely focused on making the best media news organization and providing the best service for their audience may have.

[Justin Webb]

Before we go, we should talk as well about Epstein, because there has now been the testimony before the congressional committee of both Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton. They didn't want to do it. In the end, they decided they had to, and so they did. And the entire video of their remarks has been released. Quite a lot of it has been on the news. Bill Clinton was asked during it about a photo that had been released by the Justice Department that shows him in a hot tub in a hotel in Brunei with someone else, a woman whose face is redacted. And he said he was invited there by the Sultan of Brunei. Well, there's.

[Anthony Zurcher]

He's asking in the pool area. There's a girl over here. There's someone.

[Bill Clinton]

Yeah, I don't know who that is.

[Anthony Zurcher]

But he's also asking in the pool area whether other individuals.

[Bill Clinton]

I don't know who that is.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Okay, so you don't know?

[Bill Clinton]

No. And then there were other people. People in the pool.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Okay, so do you remember who were they under 18?

[Bill Clinton]

Would you know?

[James Tallarico]

No.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Were they part of your traveling party? He's asking you.

[Bill Clinton]

Yes, they were. I think. I think everybody there was part of our party. It was late at night, and I. Or late issue. I also believe that there was a secret Service agent there at the other end of the pool.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And was this in public?

[Bill Clinton]

No, it was a hotel room, and the sultan wanted us to stay there. And the whole. The water, this big pool was on the same floor, that there were several suites and that. So we went out, I swam around. I sat in the hot tub for five minutes. I did, or whatever it was, and I got up and went to bed.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And then at us. Did you engage any sexual activities with this person? Thank you.

[Justin Webb]

Two thoughts, Anthony. First, quite a hotel room. I don't know if you travel in that kind of style. But more seriously, how do you feel he came across? I mean, his voice is quite reedy now, isn't it? He feels like an older man. His lawyer was really on top of it. I felt that he didn't necessarily move us on when it came to any information about Epstein And I was interested as well in the fact that when he was asked specifically about Donald Trump, he didn't try at all to implicate him.

[Bill Clinton]

He never, the president, never, this is 20 something years ago, never said anything to me to make me think he was involved in anything improper with regard to Epstein either. He just didn't. He just said, we were friends and then we had a falling out over a land deal, property deal.

[Anthony Zurcher]

It was interesting. You know, it seems like an old man trying to remember things that happened decades ago. And yeah, some of the things, he was being presented with hot tubs and traveling with Epstein. I mean, it's not, you know, there's nothing that is illegal, but it does, knowing what we do know about Epstein now, not put him in the best of light. I thought it was interesting. Hillary Clinton in her testimony the day before, much more confrontational. She was much more kind of sharp and willing to mix it up with the Republicans who were asking her questions. I think the impression I got from that testimony from Clinton is he just wanted to make it all go away as soon as it could.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And we are now going to get testimony, aren't we, from the Commerce Secretary, which is a sort of a development since the, the Clintons sat down with this congressional committee because they said, didn't they, they challenged the committee and everyone and said, okay, if we're going to do this, get everyone you could possibly get in front of you and do it publicly. And Howard Lutnick is going to do it.

[Anthony Zurcher]

He has volunteered to testify, although there was obviously animated calls by Democrats to subpoena him and bring him out there. But it was revealed in these Epstein files that he had communicated with Jeffrey Epstein, that he had engaged in business dealings with Jeffrey Epstein and actually had visited the Epstein island with his family at one point. They were neighbors. Their homes were next to each other in New York City. So, yeah, this will be another interesting one to see how it shakes out and to see how he explains his interactions. This is just kind of scratching the surface of some of the people in Donald Trump's orbit who have ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. For instance, another one who traveled with Ghislaine, Maxwell and Epstein on a dinosaur bone hunting trip to Wyoming, I believe. And then the big one, of course, is Donald Trump himself. And I think the Clintons hope, and they have said this, hope that this sets a precedent for presidents, former presidents, testifying about their ties to Epstein. And so Democrats have said if they take control of the House of Representatives, they are going to subpoena Trump and try to get him to do the same thing and answer the same kind of questions that Clinton answered last week. And you could see with the evidence that there's already in the files tying Donald Trump, the connections he had to Jeffrey Epstein that some of those questions are going to be uncomfortable, as uncomfortable as the ones that that Clinton had to answer.

[Justin Webb]

And we used to run that clip, didn't we, in the titles of Donald Trump saying, are you still talking about Epstein? And we are. And it is going to last all the way to the midterms at least, isn't it? There's no doubt about that.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. And if the Democrats win, get ready, it's going to get wild, as they say next year when Democrats start to flex their subpoena power and look to turn the tables on the Republicans.

[Justin Webb]

Interesting that that is the moment. What, because they are in charge of the committees so they can actually wield the power of the pen. It were to get people in. Is that the difference? We're assuming now that they win the House, they don't need to win the Senate to do that, do they? It's just the House.

[Anthony Zurcher]

No, these hearings are all conducted within the House of Representatives. It's the House Oversight Committee and the Republican majority that has the power. Well, we've heard Democrats call for subpoenas, call for people to testify, including Peter Mandelson and the former Prince Andrew, but those calls don't have the power of of law behind them. If they become the majority, then they can issue subpoenas that do have a bit more bite to them and might be more effective at compelling people like the Clintons were compelling people to show up and testify under threat of prosecution and being held in contempt of Congress.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, that's interesting because it was the Clintons decided to, didn't they, after the Democrats enough Democrats said, no, you really ought to come and they felt we can't fight this. I do wonder another sidebar issue. If the Republicans go on deselecting people effectively, as they have now with Dan Crenshaw, that guy we were talking about in Texas, there might be enough congressmen and women who are Republicans but have lost their place in the House to vote. You see where I'm going with this? To vote with the Democrats if they feel really upset about it because there are one or two who do anyway.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, I mean, we heard with that Thom Tillis interview questioning of Kristi Noemi. As you pointed out, there's something liberating about not having to run for reelection again and there might be. I mean, Thomas Massie obviously has been one of the leading Republicans pushing for greater revelations in the Epstein files, but there might be some other Republican members of Congress with nothing to lose and wanting to make some waves before they hit the exits.

[Justin Webb]

Right? I hope we have satisfied at least some of the interest of people who wanted us to talk about things other than Iran. So thanks for that, Anthony. I promise though. And we should promise we are going to get back to the US and Iran, of course, when we do our next episode, which will be tomorrow. For now though, bye bye bye. Thank you for listening to another episode. If you liked what you heard, why not subscribe to AmericaSt on BBC Sounds or indeed wherever you get your podcasts. That way you will be notified every time we publish a new episode. We also want to hear your thoughts, your favorite feedback, questions, anecdotes, ideas, so do keep them coming in. We do look at every single bit of correspondence that we get so you can email us americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link for that is in the description and you can also Watch us on YouTube. You just search for Ameracast. Until next time. Bye Bye.

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