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What does Donald Trump want from his UK state visit?
00:36:06
And the row over free speech after Charlie Kirk’s assassination
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- [00:00]
Justin Webb
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- [01:06]
Sarah Rainsford
It'S going to be a big day today, Wednesday. And I know that because Donald Trump told us it's going to be a very big day. And it certainly is quite a day for him because he's going to be greeted at Windsor Castle by the King and Queen, King Charles, who he says is a good friend of his. It's his first full day of his state visit to the United Kingdom. There's plenty to talk about between the US and the UK obviously, whether it is the divisions over Gaza, Ukraine talks about trade tariffs, and the criticism the UK has been getting recently from the US over the issue of free speech. Well, that's going to be an interesting conversation because Donald Trump has just left back home a nation reeling from the assassination of the right wing influencer Charlie Kirk, which has sparked a very fierce debate in America over what constitutes free speech. So what is Donald Trump leaving behind and what's he arriving to in the UK? Welcome to AmericasT AmericasT AmericaT from BBC News.
- [02:08]
Donald Trump
When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes sir, right away sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world.
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Justin Webb
Oh dear.
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Greenlight Advertisement Voice
Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry?
- [02:20]
Marianna Spring
Of course the President supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question.
- [02:23]
Donald Trump
Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
- [02:32]
Sarah Rainsford
Hello, it's Sarah here in the United Kingdom in a hotel near Windsor.
- [02:37]
Justin Webb
And it's just in at home, far from Windsor in South London.
- [02:40]
Marianna Spring
And it is Mariana, aka misinformation, in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London.
- [02:46]
Sarah Rainsford
All on My own holding the fort there.
- [02:49]
Justin Webb
Yeah, that's right, holding the fort. Let's kick off with the visit. And since you are closer to it, Sarah, why don't you kick off if you're still in the hotel? It suggests to me that it's not properly underway, though I suppose the state bits of it could take part without you there.
- [03:04]
Sarah Rainsford
I could see some of the rehearsals going on through the streets yesterday. An awful lot of household cavalry on horses processing through the streets, getting ready for it all, because they've really amped up the kind of regal grandeur of the whole thing to try and impress Donald Trump, because, as we know, it is his unprecedented second state visit. So how do you top what you did with the first state visit? Well, they've changed the venue and he seems to be convinced that somehow Windsor Castle is a step up from Buckingham palace and that he's really getting the full VIP treatment this time.
- [03:36]
Justin Webb
He's right, actually. I mean, just. Yeah. Just objectively, can we not say that Windsor Castle is a step up from the palace palace in the center of London? It's a bit sort of, you know, slightly falling apart around the. Round the sides. Windsor Castle is genuinely grand. I mean, you don't have to be. American presidents and Americans generally are impressed by elderly English things, aren't they? But Windsor Castle. Quite like my good self. Yeah. And it's got. It's got something about it that the palace hasn't got. Is that not.
- [04:05]
Sarah Rainsford
Oh, well, it's certainly got history. It's nearly a thousand years old and they're. They're managing to make the most of all of that. He's going to lay a wreath at the late Queen's grave, for instance, for whom he held great affection. And for him and Melania, I imagine this is the real highlight of the tour. There is work to be done when he goes to meet the Prime Minister in Chequers on Thursday. There are deals to be announced, there's even some negotiations to go on, but that's not what he's interested in. He's interested in seeing and being seen among the Royal family and I think probably quite particularly a rather glittering state banquet that will be held in Windsor Castle in his honor tonight. And, of course, you know, there's nothing Donald Trump loves more than being honoured and particularly if members of the British royal family are there to do it.
- [04:49]
Marianna Spring
Last night, did he stay, did he sleep in the. You know, that, that. Is it called Winford House? What's it called, the residency? Winfield House.
- [04:57]
Justin Webb
Yeah, Winfield House. I mean, the thing is about Winfield House. So it's this amazing, I mean, it's incredibly central for people who don't know London. Winfield House, this huge residence that the American ambassador traditionally has, I think it was a wealthy guy who gave it to the, to, to the United States, didn't he? Originally, a long time ago. But it has this incredible garden and into which you can go by helicopter, which is quite convenient when you don't want to be on the snarled up streets of London and when you're staying away from them.
- [05:31]
Marianna Spring
I would have liked to see Trump on an E bike. I think that would have been quite good.
- [05:34]
Justin Webb
Yes, it would have been the other way of getting there. And of course, you know, the fact of the matter is that he isn't going to see much of ordinary people and his relationship, or the relationship of Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, to the Trump administration is still poor. And Sadiq Khan on the day of the visit coming out and saying we ought to be tougher on Trump, basically implicitly criticizing Keir Starmer and saying we need to talk to him about what he can regards as his hate filled rhetoric, et cetera, et cetera. So there are reasons why it's being held behind closed doors as it is. And that, I suppose Marianna, is, you know, that's not a part of the trip that the Trump administration is keen to, to talk about and it's not a part of the trip the British government is keen to talk about. But we ought to say it's a fact. This is not a state visit in the normal way that you sort of parade around and millions of cheering people come and throw their hats at you.
- [06:29]
Marianna Spring
Yeah. Funnily enough, Donald Trump didn't mention that himself when he was explaining to reporters what he wanted for the trip. And that was when he left the US For London.
- [06:39]
Donald Trump
Well, my relationship is very good with the UK and Charles, as you know, who's now king, is my friend. And it's the first time this has ever happened where somebody was honored twice. So it's a great honor. And this one's at Windsor. They've never used Windsor Castle for this before. They use Buckingham Palace. I don't want to say one's better than the other, but they say Windsor Castle is the ultimate right. So it's going to be nice. But basically up there also on trade, they want to see if they can refine the trade deal a little bit. We made a deal and it's a great deal and I'm into helping them. Our country is doing Very well. We've never done this well. We're making. We're having trillions of dollars coming because of the tariffs. They'd like to see if they could get a little bit better deal. So we'll talk to them. But primarily it's to be with Prince Charles and Camilla. They're friends of mine for a long time, long before he was king, since.
- [07:31]
Sarah Rainsford
Donald Trump said that as he was leaving the White House, we have actually heard that Britain is now going to get a little bit of a better deal on tariffs, as he said there. And in fact, they're not going to be discussing the steel and aluminium tariff tariffs, which were the one kind of outstanding bit of the US UK trade agreement that hadn't quite been signed off. They are. They're not going to get a break. They're still going to be tariffs at 25%, but actually that's better than the 50% tariffs for steel and aluminium tariffs from every other country that are being imported into the United States. But it's not getting any better than that. But, of course, as he's leaving to come on this trip, which as I say, is, you know, a lot of it's ceremonial, it's not that political. Donald Trump is leaving behind an absolutely fevered situation in the United States, of course, after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And very shortly after he leaves here, he will be going to Phoenix in Arizona to attend Charlie Kirk's funeral that's taking place at the beginning of next week. And so I think there's a real contrast, don't you think, Justin, between the kind of heat of the debate there, the passions that have been invoked on both sides of what's, you know, quite a nasty argument for this terribly polite kind of affair at Windsor for the President.
- [08:46]
Justin Webb
Yeah, exactly. It is a respite for him, isn't it? And it's a respite in a way as well, for the British government, who've had massive troubles of their own, including, of course, with their ambassador to the United States, Peter Mandelson. So, I mean, I think the hope on both sides. Well, I mean, we know, don't we? The hope on both sides. And I think, I wonder if this means that Donald Trump will be a bit better behaved. Be interesting to just hear what you think about that, Sarah, whether he might be a little bit better behaved when it comes to the news conferences, in as much as he doesn't want this to be about a sort of falling out, because he's got plenty of those at home and he generally likes fallings out, of course, and appreciates them and they work for him politically. But do we think this might in the end be a little bit smoother as a visit than perhaps some people have suggested?
- [09:32]
Sarah Rainsford
Well, the great potential pitfall, of course, is a press conference at Checkers with journalists from both sides of the Atlantic asking the President and the Prime Minister questions. And, you know, they can't control what comes up, obviously. And will the ghost of Jeffrey Epstein come looming over this situation now? You're right, Justin. Nobody wants this to blow up. And in fact, of course, Keir Starmer and Donald Trump would rather not talk about this at all. They've both got their own political problems with Jeffrey Epstein, no matter how well planned it is. And Marianna, Justin, I think we all know this. Donald Trump can't necessarily control what comes out of his mouth in the heat of the moment. If he is provoked by a question that he doesn't like, then who knows what he's going to say and what kind of problems could ensue. There was an amazing moment yesterday as he was leaving the White House as he gave that clip that we just played there. He was asked other questions and one by an Australian journalist he didn't like about whether he was making more money in office than any other president ever had done before or whether that was appropriate. He got really angry with him.
- [10:34]
Donald Trump
My kids are running the business. You know what the activity. Where are you from?
- [10:38]
Justin Webb
I'm from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Four Corners program.
- [10:41]
Donald Trump
The Australians. You're hurting Australia, right? In my opinion, you are hurting Australia very much right now. They want to get along with me. You know, your leader is coming over to see me very soon. I'm going to tell him about you. You set a very bad tone. Go ahead, John.
- [10:57]
Sarah Rainsford
So, yeah, that's journalists being scolded for asking questions the President doesn't like. Who knows what could happen at Chequers, because he finds British journalists really quite cheeky, might be the polite way of putting it compared to some Americans.
- [11:09]
Marianna Spring
You'd imagine as well that Jeffrey Epstein will come up. Jeffrey Epstein, who perhaps he's flown over here to try and escape a little bit, because there's been a lot of criticism of his connections to Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, even though he has made very clear that they fell out and, and that, you know, that he, he wasn't, he says, party to any wrongdoing or connected to that in any way. But there was this image that was projected, it's been going really viral on social media actually, of Donald Trump with Jeffrey Epstein and various photos and a timeline of their relationship and it was being projected onto Windsor Castle. I think some people, four people now have been arrested in relation to that. But you imagine that he won't be able to escape that conversation, Justin, while he's here.
- [11:50]
Justin Webb
Yeah, no, he won't. And what's going to be really interesting is the vigour with which he responds to any questions that there are. And I was. When we were doing our Americans thing on 5 Live, we were wondering whether one of the things we might do is defend Peter Mandelson, which of course would be excruciatingly embarrassing, I think, for the. For the Prime Minister, because he seemed to like Mandelson and I don't know whether he'll be briefed, certainly by the Brits that they'd rather he didn't, but he might do. But also if he's asked, I mean, to the point that Sarah's just making, if he's asked really pointed questions about his own relationship with Epstein and if that comes from a British accent and if he's annoyed by it, you know, who knows what sort of tangent he'll. He'll go off on.
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Marianna Spring
Or a Scottish accent, even.
- [12:42]
Justin Webb
Or a Scottish accent. Yes, quite right.
- [12:45]
Sarah Rainsford
Fingers crossed. Haven't been issued my accreditation from the White House yet to say that I can get into the press conference, but I am eagerly watching my inbox, hoping.
- [12:54]
Justin Webb
That it will arrive at any moment behind the scenes. Sarah, do they. This would be interesting to people. In the old days, I. E. When I was doing your job, you got a tip off that you were going to get a question to the President. Did they still do that? Or with Trump, is it much more freewheeling? And I'm talking both about W. Bush and also Obama.
- [13:12]
Sarah Rainsford
Yeah, it used to be the case. It wasn't. There would pretty much be two questions to each side, two from Brits, two from Americans, and whoever was going to be asking those questions would know in advance. Very often, for instance, the BBC's political editor will be assigned by the Prime Minister to get one of the questions. No, no, no. With Donald Trump, it is an absolute free for all. He will just pick people out of the crowd, not necessarily in the front row. And often it's people he knows who are often covering him in the Oval Office or famous faces from television, because that's what Donald Trump loves the most. But if you catch his eye, for whatever reason, there's every chance that he'll take a question and it can go on and on and on. I mean, Remember the last time he was with Keir Starmer in this kind of environment was at Turnberry when he was visiting Scotland about six weeks ago. And that went on for about an hour and a half taking questions on anything and everything from all of the journalists in the room while the Prime Minister was sort of trapped besides him listening to all of this.
- [14:10]
Justin Webb
Yeah, I mean there have been, I mean you put me in mind now of our dear friend Nick Robinson who used to really get under the skin of George W. Bush. Didn't he come into the point that it was really quite kind of. And this is in obviously the pre Trump days when generally these things were done with some decorum. But Nick used to ask very pointed questions when he came over to the States and would really unnerve George W. Bush.
- [14:37]
Nick Robinson
Nick Robinson, BBC News. Mr. President, the Iraq Study Group described the situation in Iraq as grave and deteriorating. You said that the increase in attacks is unsettling. That will convince many people that you're still in denial about how bad things are in Iraq and question your sincerity about changing course.
- [14:57]
George W. Bush
It's bad in Iraq. That help?
- [15:01]
Nick Robinson
Why did it take others to say it before you've been willing to acknowledge it to the world?
- [15:05]
George W. Bush
You know, in all due respect, I've been saying a lot. I understand how tough it is and I've been telling the American people how tough it is and they know how tough it is. And the fundamental question is do we have a plan to achieve our objective? Are we willing to change as the enemy has changed about making sure you understand that? I understand it's tough. But I want you to know, sir, that I believe we'll prevail. I know we have to adjust to prevail but I wouldn't have our troops in harm's way if I didn't believe one it was important and two, we'll succeed. Thank you.
- [15:39]
Nick Robinson
Prime Minister, if I may briefly. Yeah. Isn't what.
- [15:44]
Justin Webb
You're not going to do a follow up, are you?
- [15:45]
Donald Trump
No, no.
- [15:46]
Nick Robinson
Forgive me. I just wanted to ask you about your Middle east mission if I may.
- [15:50]
Justin Webb
And there is just that sense, isn't there? And at Turnberry you had it, didn't you? That kind of sense that he's just going to keep on going and the pool of questioners, as it were, will get bigger and bigger and the ability of anyone to control who the questioners are gets less and less and it all gets much more interesting. So I imagine the Brits will want to of pretty firm kibosh on it quite early doors. But if Trump just wants to go on talking. I'm not sure they're really going to be able to stop him, are they?
- [16:23]
Sarah Rainsford
No. Now, of course, before we get to that point, there are behind the scenes talks, not least with Trump of the Royal family today. And we've actually, Ian on Discord wants to know how free and frank will the conversation be between Trump and King Charles and is it there that the special relationship is really cemented? That's a very interesting one because I think Charles is going to have to be incredibly diplomatic about this, isn't he? Because let's say he and Donald Trump are not ideological fellow travelers. I wouldn't say, Justin.
- [16:55]
Justin Webb
They're friends, according to Trump. I thought that was quite a nice line. I'd love to have been with Charles when he heard that news. I mean, it is a fact, isn't it? Look, I mean, let's be blunt about this. Neither you, Sarah, nor I, nor Marianna are particular experts in the Royal family or would claim to have any kind of behind the scenes sense of how Charles genuinely feels about Trump any more than anyone else, except to say that, you know, we ought to note Charles went to Canada in quite a pointed way, didn't he, to open Parliament in Canada at a moment when Canada felt under maximum pressure and albeit that these deals are done by governments and obviously the Canadian government would have come to the British government. But I think, you know, he did it with some enthusiasm. And I think when it comes to their politics, it seems to me that they've sort of, they've got a way of getting on as people without necessarily going into huge details about what they genuinely think about life. And I just think there's an awful lot of people of King Charles that would be completely outside the kind of epistemological orbit of Donald Trump, if you could put it like that. I mean, just things that Trump would never have considered and in a sense, vice versa as well. But I'm not sure that necessarily means that they won't be able to get on even in private, because they will have plenty that they'll be able to talk about. They're both consequential people. And consequential people kind of always do get on, don't they?
- [18:27]
Sarah Rainsford
Charles's big issue is the environment and conservation, isn't it? Look at what Donald Trump is doing. He is going backwards on fossil fuels in the United States. He's actively attacking renewable energy sources. He has no interest in environmental conservation. He's talking about drilling in protected sites in Alaska as well as all over the United States. I mean, given how central that is to Prince Charles's work and life up until this point, it's difficult to imagine how he could have much response, respect for somebody whose policy is moving in that direction. Now, I'm sure he wouldn't let. Let on any of this at all. But. But, yeah, I think underpinning it, whatever you think about Gaza, Ukraine, immigration, income tax rates, you name it, that environmental stuff's got to cut pretty deep.
- [19:15]
Marianna Spring
And another issue that very easily could come up over the next couple of days really is, is freedom of speech. Freedom of expression, which, I mean, has been for a while, such a major talking point in the US but particularly has come to the fore in light of the assassination, the killing of. Of Charlie Kirk. And I mean, there's. You need only look at X, for example, to see how Elon Musk and other very loud political voices, often very loud pro Donald Trump voices, have serious concerns about the issue of freedom of expression in the UK but interestingly, what seems to be unfolding in the US Right now is almost a mirror of conversations that have happened in the uk People saying, oh, hang on a second, okay, we believe in absolute freedom of express, but when it involves hate speech or violent rhetoric that could have contributed, for example, to a killing like Charlie Kirk's, then we've got an issue with it. And this is what Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, had to say about that issue of free speech and hate speech when she was speaking on the Katie Miller podcast.
- [20:14]
Advertisement Voice
There's free speech and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie, in our society. Do you see more law enforcement going after these groups who are using hate speech and putting cuffs on people? So we show them that some action is better than no action. We will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything, and that's across the aisle.
- [20:45]
Marianna Spring
And then Donald Trump was actually asked about her comments before he traveled to London yesterday. Have a listen to this. Where he was talking to ABC News chief Jonathan Karl.
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Justin Webb
And what do you think?
- [20:54]
Donald Trump
Pam Bondi saying she's gonna go after hate speech? Is that.
- [20:57]
Marianna Spring
I mean, a lot of people, a.
- [20:58]
Justin Webb
Lot of your allies say hate speech is free speech.
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Donald Trump
She'd probably go after people like you because you treat me so unfairly and say you have a lot of hate in your heart. Maybe they'll come after ABC. Well, ABC paid me $16 million recently for a form of hate speech. Right. Your company paid me $16 million for a form of hate speech. So maybe they'll have to go after you. Look, we want everything to be fair. It hasn't been fair. And the radical left has done tremendous damage to the country, but we're fixing it.
- [21:28]
Sarah Rainsford
Classic Donald Trump there. Of course. Now, the $16 million that he's talking about, ABC having paid him, was a case that they settled over something that one of their anchors, George Stephanopoulos, said about Donald Trump when he said that he had been. That he was a convicted rapist, when in fact, that Eugene Carroll case, technically in New York, it was sexual assault that he was found responsible for, not rape. Now, there's a big debate about whether ABC should have better defended that, but they decided to pay out to the White House and avoid a fight. So was that hate speech? Well, you debate, but I mean, there's a lot to talk about here. Americans criticism of Britain, which they think doesn't have free speech, the backlash that Mariana was just describing after the Charlie Kirk killing, but also the way Donald Trump's going after the press. I mean, there was that case. He's launched a new suit against the New York Times, which as far as I can see, is for not being very nice about him. He's suing them, as well as the $10 billion that he's suing the Wall Street Journal for over saying that he wrote that letter in the Epstein birthday book. So, you know, he is not shy about going after the press and trying to stop them from criticizing him. But that's not front and center here, is it? Just that there's a different question about citizens free speech and whether the authorities can go after them.
- [22:43]
Justin Webb
Yeah. And whether Pam Bondi has the foggiest notion of the Constitution. And this is a criticism that's coming not from the left, but from the right, from a lot of conservatives, Americans who say, what. What is this hate speech of which you talk? This is a kind of. This is a British thing. This has nothing to do with us. You can say anything you like in America, provided you don't foment violence. And the Supreme Court in the past has had a very high bar traditionally for the fomenting of violence and for something that you say actually being illegitimate, not allowed. Generally speaking, Americans can say what the heck they like, including if they want to celebrate the death of someone. And there have been plenty of people, tragically, you might think, celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk, leaving his widow and his two young kids. Some of those people, school teachers, some of them university administrators, etc. Etc. And lots of people on the right have been saying, that's an outrage. And Pam Bondi seems to be acting as a result of that. And some of them have been losing their jobs. But also lots of people on the right have been saying, hang on a second, you're meant to be allowed to do that under the American system. And what on earth is Pam Bondi on? And I thought it was quite telling, actually, in those two clips we've just played that. I mean, Trump, he didn't really answer the question, did he, about where the limits are. But there are people losing their jobs at the moment right around America because of things they've said about Charlie Kirk. And of course, on the left, you know, in a sense, they don't have a leg to stand on because of cancel culture, or what the left used to call consequence culture, didn't they, that people have lost their jobs for all sorts of things they've said, particularly about racial stuff in the past. It's not a new thing to lose your job because of something you've said online. But generally on the right in America, you are meant to think that the Constitution gives you the right to say anything, pretty much. And it's weird. I think that Pam Bondi has gone in another direction.
- [24:57]
Marianna Spring
What Pam Bondi is saying is the exact argument that people on the other side of the political spectrum have been making for quite a long time about whether there are limits to sort of absolute freedom of expression and whether certain types of abusive rhetoric or violent rhetoric, ones that don't necessarily stray into being directly threatening, but that could be offensive in some way, are okay. A lot of this debate has actually centered most recently on social media. And someone like Elon Musk, when he bought X, came in and kind of tore up the rulebook that been established in terms of, you know, we'll allow people to say things, and there's going to be a limit to that because we have policies, and if you violate them, then that content will be taken down. And. And what. What she said is, is very much the argument that so many people, including Donald Trump, have been very, very, very against in the United States. And I think you're right, Justin, to point out how there's a big difference between sort of, I guess, the British approach to hate speech and the American approach to hate speech. There's some really interesting research you can look at. So the Reuters Institute do this digital report every year where they survey a whole bunch of people, and as part of it, they ask about things like, you know, do you think there are certain types of comments that should be not allowed online or should be removed. And the British approach to that is generally like, yeah, if stuff is really, really offensive or hateful, then we're not really up for it. Whereas Americans, it's much more split. And actually people are keener to just allow stuff to exist. There's another argument about whether it should be amplified and pushed to people. But that's, that's a whole separate question about my favorite topic, the algorithms. But when we talk about hate speech, hate speech is not being criticized by the press. Like, hate speech is not being someone having an opinion as well. And so I think that the fact that Donald Trump immediately pivoted in that clip to saying, oh, actually, let's talk about abc. And my criticism of ABC and all of that kind of stuff feels like, hang on a second, you can't conflate criticism and hate speech. And in fact, that's the very thing that a lot of Republicans have had a real problem with.
- [26:48]
Sarah Rainsford
There's that split within the right in America that you so accurately describe there. Marianna. But of course, there is the great irony that the administration were coming here probably to raise the issue of free speech in Britain, which we know they have been concerned about for a long time. We had that infamous speech that J.D. vance gave at the Munich Security Conference back at the beginning of the year, saying that the real threat to Europe wasn't from Russia or China, it was from the enemy within. And the way in which, in countries like Britain, free speech was being curtailed. And they were probably going to raise the case of, say, Graham Linehan, who was arrested at Heathrow a couple of weeks ago for some anti trans tweets and also the Online Safety act, which I'm sure you know more about than I do. Marianna. They were probably going to say that that was attacking the free speech of British citizens. It'd be interesting to see if they change their tune on how they think Britain responds to hate speech and the fomenting of violence online. But we've got all of these big tech companies coming, putting big investments into the UK they're announcing billions and billions of dollars going into AI centers and different things here. Do you think one of the asks will have been to tone down anything in the Online Safety Act?
- [28:00]
Marianna Spring
I think it's really interesting, that dynamic that the social media companies and the really big tech companies bring to this, because they are super powerful, super influential, very unaccountable, and they are very much kind of allied right now, at least with Donald Trump not necessarily on all of their political views, but just that they are powerful forces coming from America. And Donald Trump can see that. And they therefore also, you know, when you, when you think about the tightrope that Keir Starmer is walking, he's trying to strike good deals with Donald Trump, particularly when it comes to tariffs and trade and everything else, and decisions to go after the social media companies and hold them more accountable or find them more, or even hold, for example, bosses of big tech companies criminally liable. All measures that have really been discussed around, around the Online Safety act, those things are not things that would be very good for the companies and therefore wouldn't be very good necessarily for Donald Trump. And there's a little bit of a chicken and egg situation here which is worth mentioning. Obviously, you know, the First Amendment way predates social media companies. And Donald Trump has always been very supportive of kind of absolute freedom of expression, certainly since he's been involved in politics in the way he has. But absolute freedom of expression is also hugely beneficial to the social media companies because if they don't have to take responsibility for this stuff, it saves them money. But also in terms of the kinds of content that gets millions of views and likes, often it is stuff that evokes emotions. Often it's stuff that evokes negative emotions like rage and upset and sadness. And having to deal with all of that or overhaul their systems has always been something that certainly people from inside the companies I've spoken to have said they're really not up for.
- [29:33]
Justin Webb
You see, we've said often, haven't we, on the pod, Donald Trump, in a sense, doesn't really believe anything in an ideological sense. There isn't a thing called Trumpism that you can say has this sort of ideological bent. A lot of it's about business interests. A lot of it, frankly, is about his own and his family's business interests and the tech companies similarly, as you just been saying, Mariana, these are business people. But, and here's the thing, I just want to go back to Pam Bondi. A lot of people on the American right actually do have principles and beliefs, very strongly held beliefs, particularly about freedom. And the Pam Bondi comments and the idea that there is such a thing as hate speech now in the United States has genuinely horrified quite a lot of people. I've just been looking, while we've been talking, I've been looking at some of the responses to her, including from Matt Walsh. So Matt Walsh, a very big figure on the online right in the States, who said on X this is really outrageous and infuriating. We're already having a lot of success fighting back against the leftists, as he puts it, celebrating Charlie's death. We don't need Pam Bondi swooping in to throw the entire conversation off the rails by completely missing the point. Having a hate speech crackdown in the name of Charlie Kirk, a man who absolutely rejected hate speech laws, is especially grotesque, he says, and there are plenty of other people who also believe that. And she's tried to defend herself, but I'm not sure she's really managed desperately well to do it. She tries to kind of make this distinction between hate speech that is not protected by the First Amendment because it is somehow crossing the line into threats of violence. But at the same time, loads of people are losing their jobs. We mentioned at the beginning school teachers and others for saying things that weren't particularly violent. They're just saying, I'm really glad that Charlie Kirk was killed or something. You might find it really unpleasant. But nonetheless, it's not a renewed threat of any kind of violence in any realistic way. And I don't think it would meet that. I don't think the Supreme Court would regard it in that way. You know, she's. She's defended herself, I think, pretty weedily against the attack that there has been against her.
- [31:50]
Marianna Spring
I personally think at the crux of all of this, across the political debate is this real hypocrisy, which is the. The belief that you want everyone to be able to say what they think. That's what you say. But then in reality, you actually are making a moral judgment on what you think is right or wrong to say. And if people say the things that are wrong, then for you, that doesn't fall within your parameters of freedom of expression. And that seems to be happening across the political spectrum, really. And I think that could prove thorny.
- [32:16]
Justin Webb
Going forward when it comes though, to freedom of expression and the idea that you need to be in the marketplace for ideas and you need to be having these conflicts that, again, as Sarah will know, is something that has kind of got the left talking. So we talked a lot about the split in the right, and it's a huge split over Pam Bondi, who, by the way, I think he'll get rid of her. Because you remember, Pam Bondi is the same person who said she had the Epstein files on her desk. Yeah. And turns out that was a bit of an error. So, you know, I'm not sure she'll be long in that role. But there's also a split on the left about whether or not Ezra Klein, the New York Times journalist and is a very big figure on the American left. That's why I bring him up. And he came out, didn't he, Sarah, in the hours after Charlie Kirk was murdered and said we on the left ought to have a Charlie Kirk figure. And number one, he was nice about Charlie Kirk and said this is an awful moment for America. Didn't kind of go down any of the rabbit holes of unpleasantness about it, but also said we need our own people who are willing to go out and engage with the enemy, as it were, with their opponents and do so whether it's on college campuses or elsewhere or in podcasts or in broadcast studios or whatever. And at the moment, Ezra Klein said we don't have it. And I was just listening to Ezra Klein, the podcast after that one, and he was saying he had never had such a massive response and including from many on the left saying it's outrageous and you shouldn't be saying these things. So it's sort of set off a firestorm now on the American left about what do we do about discussing things openly, about our ability to engage with people we hate in some cases, is this going to be a turning point for us? So I think there are all sorts of things about, aren't there, Sarah? The whole nightmare of Charlie Kirk and this killing that do open up kind of fissures within American politics on both sides that they're going to have to work out. It's not just a Republican, Democrat or a left right or a far left, far right thing.
- [34:24]
Sarah Rainsford
No, it's fundamentally about your approach to politics, about whether you are prepared to engage and debate and whether that can continue across the country without people going further and further into their own silos. But, I mean, the Democrats need some kind of Charlie Kirk for many, many other reasons as well. They need somebody who's on college campuses enthusing young people. They need somebody who's able to organize to the extent that his Turning Point organization was able to do. They just need somebody who's eloquent and evangelizing on social media and using modern ways of communicating with young people and who has a clear message now, one that Ezra Klein and many, many people listening to this wouldn't agree with in any way, but one that he was able to eloquently and energetically pursue. And these are all things that the Democrats are missing and are going to have to find a way to respond to in this potentially this climate where the administration is trying to crack down all sorts of their organizations. If there was, if there is a left wing version of Turning Point usa, you can be sure the administration will be looking at cutting off any funding, trying to stop any tax breaks, cracking down them in some fashion or other. And exactly the kind of things that Pam Bondi is talking about in terms of cracking down on hate speech is. Yeah. Is McCarthyism back or is Orwellianism in? I mean, they're kind of one and the same thing when you start to worry about what the future of political debate in America might be.
- [35:49]
Justin Webb
Sarah, haven't you got a state dinner to go to?
- [35:51]
Sarah Rainsford
I most certainly do. I've got a tiara to polish. I've got my jewels to put on.
- [35:57]
Justin Webb
Yeah, down in South London, we've already got our tiaras on. But you, you're a little behind the times there. We will meet again. Bye all.
- [36:05]
Sarah Rainsford
Bye, bye.
- [36:06]
Marianna Spring
Bye.
- [36:09]
Advertisement Voice
Ameracast Ameracast from BBC News.
- [36:13]
Justin Webb
Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an ameracaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all actually, get in touch with us. The email is ameracastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week. Actually, the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.
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- [39:51]
Marianna Spring
America is changed and so is the world.
- [39:55]
Nick Robinson
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [40:03]
Marianna Spring
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, dc.
- [40:06]
Nick Robinson
I'm Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global story.
- [40:10]
Marianna Spring
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [40:16]
Nick Robinson
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.