What the Reflecting Pool tells us about Trump’s presidency - Americast

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[00:00]
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[00:32]
Asma Khalid
President Trump has described the surge of migrants into Spain as an invasion. But what really happened in the tiny Spanish enclave known as Ceuta? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast on the BBC. Last week, tens of thousands of migrants from Morocco streamed into Ceuta. It ignited a political storm in Europe and even here in the U.S. but who? Who's really to blame? For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:03]
Sarah
Donald Trump is very used to getting his own way. He is accustomed to his orders being followed by loyal acolytes. But sometimes it doesn't quite work out. And that's how it's been going in the last few days. Some of his closest allies have had to tell him they can't give the president what he wants, and he is not happy about it. His flawed efforts to renovate the reflecting pool at the Lincoln Memorial in the heart of Washington, D.C. has taken another bizarre twist, as Washington's top prosecutor, Jeanine Pirro, has been forced to drop the case and contradict Donald Trump's version of events. And I think it's fair to say the president is not happy about it.
[01:42]
Donald Trump
And I was disappointed with Jeanine Pirro, really disappointed with Jeanine Pirro. She. She folded like an umbrella, and people get away with things, and it's a disgrace.
[01:54]
Sarah
This is a rare example of one of Donald Trump's most loyal allies breaking ranks and telling him he can't have what he wants. Why is he making such a fuss about this reflecting pool? Does it show us that he's starting to lose his grip on the Justice Department and can't use it as his personal tool of revenge anymore? And if he won't accept the facts when they are presented to him with documentary evidence, what does this tell us about the whole of his presidency? Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.
[02:25]
Asma Khalid
AmericasT from BBC News.
[02:28]
Donald Trump
You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money. We didn't start this war, but under
[02:35]
Anthony
President Trump, we are finishing it.
[02:37]
Jeanine Pirro
This is a big cover up and
[02:38]
Sarah
this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump derangement syndrome.
[02:43]
Anthony
I have four words for you.
[02:46]
Donald Trump
Turn the volume up.
[02:52]
Sarah
Hi, it's Sarah here in the BBC's bureau in Washington.
[02:55]
Anthony
And it's Anthony right next to Sarah here in Washington, D.C. yeah, it's good to be together.
[03:00]
Sarah
And we've got a great story to talk about today because as you well know, Anthony, the Justice Department has dropped the charges against four people who were accused of vandalizing the reflecting pool at the Lincoln Memorial here in Washington, the one that was being refurbished by Donald Trump. And those people included an Olympic athlete, David Hearn, who was facing charges of vandalizing the pool and three others who were facing misdemeanor charges. And this has become a real live story, hasn't it, Anthony, because the charges were dropped by a real Trump loyalist who is now in a battle to try and save her job with the president.
[03:36]
Anthony
Right. Jeanine Pirro was a Fox News host for quite some time. She was a judge up in New York before that. But she got on Donald Trump's radar by hosting this kind of combative evening Fox commentary program. And he tapped her to be the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, which is a key role because it prosecutes crimes in D.C. federal crimes in D.C. has a lot of discretion on what she picks and what she prosecutes. And she was brought in by Trump to be a hard nosed person who was going to go after his enemies. This was a high profile case because Donald Trump made it so. He had been talking about the reflecting pool and the renovations and how great it was going to be. And then it all kind of fell apart and he was looking for someone to blame. And Jeanine Pirro, by bringing charges against Hearn and others, gave him that scapegoat to say this was vandals, these were liberals and not this was just a botched job. The change is that now on Friday, Pirro came in and said it was because it was a rushed and botched job, that the reflecting pool had been filled with algae, that it was peeling and she dropped the charges. That did not make Donald Trump happy at all.
[04:49]
Sarah
No, that's right. She got public rebuke from the president when he was talking to reporters in the White House on Monday.
[04:54]
Donald Trump
Lafayette park is a large park. It was known as the gateway to the White House. And it was disgusting. The monument is beautiful, graffiti all over it. I won't say what was on the sidewalk, but horrible, horrible, horrible, disgusting stuff. And not only did we fix it, we have military standing there watching it and if anybody touches it, we. That was the one mistake with the reflecting pond. They hadn't put up the cameras yet. They had enough up because you see what's happening. But if they would have had them up, we would have had a lot of. It would have been a lot easier. But. And I was disappointed with Jeanine Pirro, really disappointed with Jeanine Pirro. She, she folded like an umbrella and people get away with things and it's, it's a disgrace.
[05:44]
Sarah
Well, he's still got a good turn of phrase, hasn't he? Folded like an umbrella. But let's go back to the beginning to explain why he is so upset and angry about it. The reflecting pool is this long channel of water which is, I guess, what, three or four feet deep. But it stretches out from the Lincoln Memorial and it reflects the national monument, the sort of needle in the center of them all in Washington. Or it does sometimes. It's long had problems for decades before Donald Trump came into office. It had algae blooming in it and wasn't looking quite as beautiful as it might. And Trump decided he was going to tidy it up, not only as part of his long lasting legacy to Washington, but he wanted it done in time for the 4th of July this year for the 250th anniversary of the founding of America.
[06:27]
Asma Khalid
Yeah.
[06:28]
Anthony
If you remember, Martin Luther King Jr. S I have a Dream speech was delivered on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, looking out on that reflecting pool. Or for younger folks, the movie Forrest Gump, if you remember, which recreated that scene. His girlfriend Jenny ran into the reflecting pool and he ran in as well and they hugged in the middle of it. So it has.
[06:47]
Sarah
How young do you think people have seen?
[06:51]
Anthony
Yeah, okay, maybe I'm dating myself with that, too. Okay. That's the most recent pop culture reference that's on my radar. But anyway, it does have a symbolic place. And Donald Trump has focused on these symbols of Washington. He is a real estate developer by his past. He is always fixated on making things the biggest and the most beautiful. And since coming here, that has been something that he has really fixated on. Lafayette park, which is across the street from the White House, which you talked about in the beginning of that clip. These bronze statues, the arts of war statues that sit on Memorial Bridge on the other side of the Lincoln Memorial, have. I don't know if you've seen these pictures. They've been gilded, so now they are this blinding gold. The talk about building a triumphal arch on the other side of the Potomac river, all these fountains around Union Station, the train station, and elsewhere in D.C. so the reflecting pool was just part of it, but it was one that he talked a lot about going into it, going into the Fourth of July celebrations. And now here we are. It was kind of a mess. You mentioned the algae, you mentioned the peeling. And that was one of the reasons why Trump decided to point the fingers at vandals as the explanation, because he didn't want to acknowledge the fact that one of his prized renovation projects ended up being a botched job.
[08:10]
Sarah
Yeah, he was really excited about this. It's one of the things he's talked about quite frequently, especially when he announced that he decided what color it was going to be, he was going to change the look of it. So this is him back in the spring talking about what his plans were going to be and how great he thought it was going to be.
[08:25]
Donald Trump
A great, beautiful blue color, American flag blue, as opposed to gray.
[08:32]
Anthony
Right.
[08:32]
Donald Trump
Water's not gray, but it's one of those things. And instead of three and a half years, instead of three and a half years, it's one week. So think of that. One week. Don't everybody say, well, yeah, but you can't compare this. Yeah, you can't. It's much better. It's a much better chance. This will last for at least 50 years and you'll never have a leak. It's very strong. You couldn't. If you had a knife. I don't want to give anybody ideas. If you had a knife, you can't even cut it. So strong, so powerful, powerful rubber. It is beautiful sealed. And I looked at just one of the little pieces that they did to finish. It's like a piece of glass. Beautiful color, beautiful everything. You could never get any. Anything like that.
[09:18]
Anthony
So you can see why Donald Trump has become so defensive after that reflecting pool kind of fell apart. He had talked it up so much. I mean, this is really. Trump created this own problem for himself by saying things like that and making the reflecting pool, which I think most Americans, yes, they may have seen Forrest Gump, they may know something about the reflecting pool is not on their radar as far as a big issue. But Trump made it so by saying these things and becoming so defensive when that big, beautiful, super strong reflecting pool ended up not being the case.
[09:51]
Sarah
And he went about doing it in a very Trumpian way, of course. Bid a contract to people he knew who'd worked on swimming pools in his own golf properties before. Nobody else was allowed to bid on it, even Though it was a federal contract. So after just days after it was reopened, firstly there was more algae blooming across it than ever had been seen there before. So it was bright green, not American flag blue. And also this rubber seal, the base of it that had been put in that he claimed was so strong you could never cut it with a knife, started falling to bits. And you could see pieces of it floating on the, the surface of this blue plastic liner. And that's when he decided that it was vandalism that had done this. It wasn't a botched installation job at all. It was definitely vandal. So even though we just heard him saying you couldn't cut this with a knife even if you tried to, that's what he said. It happened that somebody had cut a 350 foot gash in this pool, which would be quite a feat actually, if you were going to try and do that. But that was the story about what had gone wrong with the pool.
[10:50]
Anthony
Right. And then after he said that, it was then that the Justice Department began releasing information about their investigations. They released videotape of what looked like some people kind of leaning over and maybe sticking their hands in the water. There's video of someone who did that being arrested by National Guard troops, detained by National Guard troops. And this was presented as evidence of the vandalism and then that high profile felony charge against David Hearn, the former US Olympian. And it was his case that led to Friday's developments where the charges were dropped against him because of the about face that Pirro underwent, saying that this was a botched job, a botched renovation job, and not any kind of example of vandalism.
[11:39]
Sarah
Yeah, but let's listen to Jeanine Pirro and the story she was telling last month when they were still sticking to this idea that it was vandalism, which, and remember, this is in complete contrast to her department filing charges at the end of last week saying it had nothing to do with vandalism. So listen to what she had to say in July.
[11:59]
Jeanine Pirro
The evidence shows, and we will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hearn willfully destroyed property at the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. This was a delivered act to damage the reflecting pool at the National Mall that members of the National Park Service actually have worked hard to restore and have witnessed. There was an effort, a violent effort to rip up the sealant from the bottom of the pool. And irrespective of whether or not, you know, we think that, you know, there is some situation that preceded it, we can state and prove beyond a reasonable Doubt that he caused damage, and that damage is over $1,000.
[12:50]
Anthony
Keying in on that. How do you prove that thousand dollars
[12:53]
Jeanine Pirro
with an expert come to the trial?
[12:57]
Anthony
Well, she has backed away from that statement now, and the Hearn side is not happy at all. His lawyers have released a statement saying that dropping the charges is not enough. The Justice Department owes Mr. Hearn an apology. He had actually told the BBC that he didn't destroy, rip, tear, peel or remove any part of the paint. But he hasn't publicly commented since that Friday decision to drop charges.
[13:26]
Sarah
Yeah, and we've got this weird row now going on between Doug Burgum, who is the Interior Secretary, and Jeanine Pirro. So Friday, her department moved to drop the charges, saying that it is Interior Department documents that have shown them that it was a botched installation that was the problem, not vandalism. The next day, Doug Burgum says on X that vandals repeatedly damaged the site, these acts were caught on camera, and that his agency has been forthcoming with the Justice Department lawyers. So, I mean, he's directly contradicting what Jeanine Pirro is saying and appears to be directly contradicting the evidence his own department provided to Jeanine Pirro. So this is completely bizarre. Is it simply that people like Jeanine Pirro, when she was talking back in July saying she had evidence of vandalism? Doug Burgum still this weekend maintaining that he has evidence of vandalism, will say in public what they know the president wants to hear, regardless of the evidence that they might be able to see themselves.
[14:23]
Anthony
Trump clearly wants this to be vandalism. I mean, he was out there saying that from the very beginning, for all the reasons that we've already discussed. So you could see why there would be a motivation among his aides, as there have been on other issues, to tell him what he wants to hear. All of this then, according to the New York Times, played out in the White House on Monday with Doug Burgum and Jeanine Pirro in front of Donald Trump arguing about whether this was or wasn't vandalism. Pirro apparently brought a box of documents that she presented to show that it wasn't vandalism, that it was the Interior Department's botched job that did it. Donald Trump still doesn't seem convinced by that. And he also seems much more angry at Pirro for publicly saying that all of these allegations of vandalism were wrong, rather than Burgum for handling what appears to be a faulty installation of this lining.
[15:23]
Sarah
Yes, because he is still Maintaining without the evidence that this was vandalism. It's very Emperor's New Clothes going on here, isn't it, that nobody will tell Donald Trump either that he's naked or that his pool lining was absolutely useless. But we thought when we saw Ginny Imperial going into the White House that she was going to be sacked because he had said already that afternoon that she had folded like an umbrella. He was obviously displeased with her. She and Doug Burgum both left the White House on Monday evening with their jobs intact. For now, having had this row in front of the President, both clearly stating their cases and insisting that they were right. Can we read anything, Anthony, into the fact that they're both still in post for now?
[16:04]
Anthony
Well, they're both still there for now, but if we were thinking Pirro' off the hook. Just last night on the tarmac in, in Los Angeles, Trump was asked about Piro's fate. And this is what he had to say.
[16:20]
Donald Trump
And I told her I was not happy.
[16:21]
Anthony
Is she safe? Are you going to keep her in the position?
[16:25]
Donald Trump
I haven't made a determination.
[16:28]
Sarah
So a determination remains on Jean Imperro's fate. And we'll see what else comes out about this row, because it is, it's. It's always fascinating to see MAGA luminaries like these two going at each other over this kind of issue about loyalty to Trump and how loyal you are, even when it possibly means that you're gonna have to embarrass yourself in court, or at what point you have to turn around and try and tell the President he's wrong. And we're talking here about the reflecting pool, which has become quite symbolic of the way Donald Trump's running his administration. But fundamentally, it doesn't matter that much. It is worrying, though, isn't it, Anthony, if you think that this is possibly the approach that's being taken to much, much bigger questions, including possibly the war with Iran, the situation with the Strait of Hormuz, if his own appointees can walk into the Oval Office and present boxes full of documentary evidence. And the President isn't convinced by that because there's another story that he wants to believe. This is a deeply worrying situation.
[17:25]
Anthony
Right. This is bigger than just the reflecting pool. I think one of the things we've seen with Donald Trump and his aides is that he is willing to part ways with them if they don't vigorously endorse his views and pursue his agenda. You remember Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, who was also very loyal to Donald Trump. She got pushed out by Trump earlier this year because according to reports, she wasn't prosecuting his enemies vigorously enough. You remember that post on Truth Social that apparently was supposed to be a private message to Bam Bondi, but it ended up going out to everyone where Trump said, pam, you've got to go after people like James Comey, the former FBI director, and Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York. And she didn't, she didn't do it in a way that Trump wanted. And so she was out. So here this is another instance where someone in Donald Trump's Justice Department wasn't going full bore against people that Donald Trump wanted targeted. Now, she definitely seems to be on tenuous ground, to say the least.
[18:32]
Sarah
One bit of good news, I suppose, for Donald Trump when it comes to his legal team around him is that the ever loyal Todd Blanche, his former personal lawyer who defended him in New York and some of those criminal cases there probably is going to end up as confirmed as his attorney general, right?
[18:48]
Anthony
It looks like it. Now, there was an impasse over the weekend. Another example of Donald Trump not getting what he wanted over a request by a handful of Republican senators that Blanche put in writing that this weaponization fund, the $1.8 billion as part of a settlement that Trump had with the IRS when they disclosed, or a contractor disclosed his tax returns to the media, that the settlement was truly and fully dead, that this fund wouldn't happen. Trump and the White House was not willing to do that for days. In fact, Trump threatened to pull Blanche's nomination and keep him on in an acting role. On Sunday, however, Blanche produced the letter saying, no, the this fund is fully dead. The Republican senators then shifted to supporting his nomination and now it looks like it is going to go to the floor of the Senate and will probably be confirmed by a very narrow margin. But getting Donald Trump's former defense attorney into the top job in the Justice Department, someone who has carried water for Trump time and time again, I think that has to be an example of him getting what he wants, even if he had to once again kind of acknowledge the political reality there to make some concessions.
[20:01]
Sarah
Yeah, I mean, you can put an alternative case and say that he has been embarrassed over the reflecting pool and the fact that the Justice Department had to drop the charges. He had to drop the idea of this $1.8 billion anti weaponization fund. He had to accept restrictions on where the IRS can do audits on him and his company's taxes. Some of the bigger ideas might be one way of putting it that Donald Trump has had, he has been forced to drop in the last few days. You could say it's not been a great time for Donald Trump. These schemes that maybe a few months ago he might have been able to get away with when he seemed to have more political clout. It's all falling to bits around him.
[20:39]
Anthony
Right. And all of these things, the reflecting pool, the Blanche nomination, these were issues that he could have taken care of if he hadn't been so obstinate, if he had been a little more low key about renovations in D.C. hadn't been bragging about him, if he had been willing to just let that $1.8 billion fund go and provide the written, the written evidence asserting that he didn't do that. He decided to go full bore and he ran headlong into some brick walls if you want to expand it even more. He's kind of doing the same thing in Iran. He has been talking about how Iran is begging for a deal, that the United States controls the Strait of Hormuz and that this war is going to be resolved with a clear American victory. And the facts on the ground, at least up until now, just haven't backed that up.
[21:26]
Sarah
Yeah. In the last few days, he's been saying again that we're very, very close to a deal. His treasury secretary, Scott Bessant, said that yesterday, on Tuesday, and we wait and see. It's possible by the time Americas are listening to this, some sort of deal about the Strait of Hormuz may have been announced. But I think you're right, Anthony, that it saps away at his credibility. And that might sound like a strange thing to say because there are a lot of people who don't believe a great deal of things that Donald Trump says anyway. But it's our job, you and me, to take him seriously because he deals with very, very serious matters and work out when he is telling the truth, when he is tell something that we ought to listen to. And that credibility is eaten away, isn't it, by the kind of things that we're talking about here. And the idea that he's got political luck and that he can make things happen has been shown not to be true over these other instances.
[22:13]
Anthony
So sitting here talking about reflecting pools and nominations and things, I think we can take two big takeaways from this 1. Donald Trump does not always accede to facts on the ground. He wants to make his alternative facts, which is that famous line from Kellyanne Conway in his first term and has gotten away with that in the past, but maybe not so much now. And the other thing is that he is surrounded right now mostly by people who will tell him what he wants to hear. And the few that don't tell him what he wants to hear pay a price for it. And these things, you know, Donald Trump's going to be president for another two years. These things could greatly complicate the remaining two years of his terms if there isn't some sort of way of him addressing that and correcting it.
[22:57]
Sarah
So with the great likelihood that Todd Blanche will shortly be the real attorney general, he's still the acting attorney general at the moment anyway, effectively running the Justice Department. Does that make any difference with Trump's own personal lawyer in place, that he will be able to bring these prosecutions that others have failed to against them? Trump opponents, he'll be under pressure to. Trump will be expecting him to do something on that. Right.
[23:19]
Anthony
And they clearly have a close relationship. I mean, that was one of the concerns that Democrats had as he was nominated for this top job in the Justice Department, is that it's supposed to be. There traditionally has been a firewall between the Justice Department and the president. But having the president's personal defense lawyer in the attorney General's job, if that firewall had already been eroded over the past year or so in Trump's second term, it is going to be virtually gone now. And Blanche coming in knows what Donald Trump wants. He wants him to go after his political enemies. He wants him to keep pushing ahead with the Comey prosecution and maybe to bring new charges against Letitia James. Adam Schiff, a senator from California, has also been one that Donald Trump once prosecuted. There's these investigations into the Federal Reserve and the renovations. Maybe that could be brought back up again. All of these things are going to be still clearly on Donald Trump's mind. And he has shown that he is more than willing to pick up the phone or get face to face with the attorney General and tell him or her to go after it. So this is something that Blanche is going to have to deal with and something that I think he knows coming into the job is going to be perhaps the biggest challenge for him.
[24:33]
Sarah
Yes. Well, that's quite something for Todd Blanche to have to try and cope with. Be careful what you wish for. I think sometimes maybe he might regret becoming confirmed as the Attorney general. We shall see. But anyway, with that, we should probably leave it there.
[24:45]
Anthony
Bye bye, bye, all.
[24:55]
Podcast Host/Producer
Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.co.uk, the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time. Bye.
[25:37]
Asma Khalid
President Trump has described the surge of migrants into Spain as an invasion. But what really happened in the tiny Spanish enclave known as Ceuta? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast on the BBC. Last week, tens of thousands of migrants from Morocco streamed into Ceuta. It ignited a political storm in Europe and even here in the US but who's really to blame? For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. President Trump has described the surge of migrants into Spain as an invasion, but what really happened in the tiny Spanish enclave known as Ceuta? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast on the BBC. Last week, tens of thousands of migrants from Morocco streamed into Ceuta. It ignited a political storm in Europe and even here in the US but who's really to blame? For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Summary5 min read

Americast (BBC News) – Episode Summary

Episode Title: What the Reflecting Pool tells us about Trump’s presidency
Date: August 5, 2026
Main Hosts: Sarah Smith, Anthony Zurcher
Notable Voices: Donald Trump, Jeanine Pirro

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the controversy surrounding Donald Trump’s much-publicized renovation of the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool, a minor Washington D.C. monument project that ballooned into a symbolic reflection (pun intended) of Trump’s style of governance, his relationships with loyalists, and mounting challenges within his administration. The discussion unpacks how Trump’s insistence on controlling the narrative collided with reluctant officials, legal realities, and the limits of presidential power—raising questions about his grip over the Justice Department and the potential wider implications for his second-term presidency.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reflecting Pool Debacle: What Happened?

Background
- Trump took personal interest in refurbishing the reflecting pool at the Lincoln Memorial to mark the 250th Anniversary of the USA on July 4th. (06:27)
- The project suffered from years of issues (algae, structural decay), and Trump saw refurbishing it as a legacy achievement.
Trump’s Approach
- Awarded the contract to associates from his golf resort projects, bypassing the normal federal bidding process. (09:51)
- Announced bold plans: "A great, beautiful blue color, American flag blue, as opposed to gray." — Donald Trump [08:25]
- Boasted about the new liner: “If you had a knife, you can't even cut it. So strong, so powerful, powerful rubber. It is beautiful sealed.” — Donald Trump [08:32]
The Fallout
- The pool reopened but quickly turned bright green with algae, and the much-touted liner began disintegrating.
- Trump refused to accept responsibility, blaming supposed “vandals” for sabotaging the project and ordering the Justice Department to find culprits.

2. The Criminal Charges: From Show Trial to Surrender

Vandalism Charges
- Charges brought against Olympic athlete David Hearn and others for allegedly damaging the pool—despite contradictory evidence. (03:59)
- Jeanine Pirro, Trump loyalist and D.C. U.S. Attorney, led the fervent prosecution (“We will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hearn willfully destroyed property…” — Jeanine Pirro [11:58])
- Evidence was weak: security footage showed people “leaning over,” not substantial criminal activity.
The Reversal
- On Friday, Pirro abruptly drops all charges: admits the real problem was a “rushed and botched job” rather than vandalism. (03:36, 11:39)
- Sarah and Anthony note the rare public rebuke from Trump, highlighting the split between loyalists and Trump’s narrative.

3. Trump’s Inner Circle: Loyalty vs. Reality

Trump’s Response
- Angrily lashed out at Jeanine Pirro: “She folded like an umbrella, and people get away with things, and it’s a disgrace.” — Donald Trump [01:42, 05:43]
- Refused to accept Pirro’s conclusions, still publicly claimed vandalism at the pool. (15:23)
Interdepartmental Bickering
- Doug Burgum (Interior Secretary) contradicted Pirro, insisting vandalism was the cause, despite Interior’s own report blaming installation issues. The administration appears unable, or unwilling, to align on even clear-cut facts. (13:25)
- “It’s very Emperor’s New Clothes going on here, isn’t it?” — Sarah Smith [15:23]

4. Broader Implications: The Pattern Beyond the Pool

Trump and Facts
- “Donald Trump does not always accede to facts on the ground. He wants to make his alternative facts…” — Anthony Zurcher [22:12]
- The pool fiasco is emblematic of larger issues—staff catering to Trump’s preferred story versus the reality, leading to dysfunction and instability.
Potential Consequences
- The same pattern at play in foreign policy (e.g., war with Iran, ongoing Hormuz crisis), legal disputes, and political firefights.
- “If his own appointees…can present boxes full of documentary evidence, and the President isn’t convinced by that because there’s another story that he wants to believe—this is a deeply worrying situation.” — Sarah Smith [17:25]

5. Department of Justice Power Struggles

Pirro’s Precarious Position
- Despite defying Trump and bringing facts to the White House (“She had folded like an umbrella” [05:43]), Pirro and Burgum leave their White House meeting with jobs yet intact—but future uncertain. (16:03)
- Trump refuses to confirm Pirro’s fate: “I haven’t made a determination.” — Donald Trump [16:24]
Todd Blanche, the Attorney General Nominee
- Trump’s ever-loyal former criminal defense lawyer, Todd Blanche, is poised to be confirmed as Attorney General after some political wrangling, representing Trump’s effort to place only the most devoted allies in critical posts. (18:32)
- With Blanche in place, the firewall between the White House and DOJ—theoretically already eroded—“is going to be virtually gone now.” — Anthony Zurcher [23:18]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Trump on Jeanine Pirro:
“She folded like an umbrella, and people get away with things, and it’s a disgrace.” [01:42, 05:43]
Trump pitching his pool project:
“A great, beautiful blue color, American flag blue, as opposed to gray.” [08:25] "If you had a knife, you can't even cut it. So strong, so powerful, powerful rubber." [08:32]
Jeanine Pirro on Hearn charges:
“We will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hearn willfully destroyed property at the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool…” [11:58]
Anthony’s summing up:
“Donald Trump does not always accede to facts on the ground. He wants to make his alternative facts…” [22:12]
Sarah on the situation’s symbolism:
“It’s very Emperor’s New Clothes going on here, isn’t it, that nobody will tell Donald Trump either that he’s naked or that his pool lining was absolutely useless.” [15:23]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[01:02] — Introduction to the controversy: Trump vs. Pirro, the reflecting pool, and Justice Department
[03:36] — Charges are dropped, and Pirro’s relationship with Trump sours
[05:43] — Trump’s rebuke of Pirro
[06:27] — Background and symbolism of the reflecting pool
[08:25] — Trump’s vision for the reflecting pool
[09:51] — How the project was managed (or mismanaged)
[11:58] — Pirro’s July prosecution statement
[13:25] — Interior Secretary Doug Burgum contradicts Pirro
[15:23] — “Emperor’s New Clothes” dynamics in the Trump White House
[16:24] — Trump on Pirro’s uncertain future
[18:32] — Todd Blanche’s likely confirmation as Attorney General
[22:12] — Broader lessons about Trump, his facts, and loyalty

Conclusion: The Meaning of the Reflecting Pool Scandal

The episode closes by contending that the whole reflecting pool controversy may seem trivial, but its handling is deeply revealing: Trump’s insistence on loyalty over fact, the pressure he places on staff to propagate his narrative, and the risks when reality collides with political self-interest. As the hosts note, these patterns are “deeply worrying” when applied to more consequential matters—legal, political, and foreign policy alike.

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[00:00]
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[00:32]
Asma Khalid
President Trump has described the surge of migrants into Spain as an invasion. But what really happened in the tiny Spanish enclave known as Ceuta? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast on the BBC. Last week, tens of thousands of migrants from Morocco streamed into Ceuta. It ignited a political storm in Europe and even here in the U.S. but who? Who's really to blame? For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:03]
Sarah
Donald Trump is very used to getting his own way. He is accustomed to his orders being followed by loyal acolytes. But sometimes it doesn't quite work out. And that's how it's been going in the last few days. Some of his closest allies have had to tell him they can't give the president what he wants, and he is not happy about it. His flawed efforts to renovate the reflecting pool at the Lincoln Memorial in the heart of Washington, D.C. has taken another bizarre twist, as Washington's top prosecutor, Jeanine Pirro, has been forced to drop the case and contradict Donald Trump's version of events. And I think it's fair to say the president is not happy about it.
[01:42]
Donald Trump
And I was disappointed with Jeanine Pirro, really disappointed with Jeanine Pirro. She. She folded like an umbrella, and people get away with things, and it's a disgrace.
[01:54]
Sarah
This is a rare example of one of Donald Trump's most loyal allies breaking ranks and telling him he can't have what he wants. Why is he making such a fuss about this reflecting pool? Does it show us that he's starting to lose his grip on the Justice Department and can't use it as his personal tool of revenge anymore? And if he won't accept the facts when they are presented to him with documentary evidence, what does this tell us about the whole of his presidency? Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.
[02:25]
Asma Khalid
AmericasT from BBC News.
[02:28]
Donald Trump
You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money. We didn't start this war, but under
[02:35]
Anthony
President Trump, we are finishing it.
[02:37]
Jeanine Pirro
This is a big cover up and
[02:38]
Sarah
this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump derangement syndrome.
[02:43]
Anthony
I have four words for you.
[02:46]
Donald Trump
Turn the volume up.
[02:52]
Sarah
Hi, it's Sarah here in the BBC's bureau in Washington.
[02:55]
Anthony
And it's Anthony right next to Sarah here in Washington, D.C. yeah, it's good to be together.
[03:00]
Sarah
And we've got a great story to talk about today because as you well know, Anthony, the Justice Department has dropped the charges against four people who were accused of vandalizing the reflecting pool at the Lincoln Memorial here in Washington, the one that was being refurbished by Donald Trump. And those people included an Olympic athlete, David Hearn, who was facing charges of vandalizing the pool and three others who were facing misdemeanor charges. And this has become a real live story, hasn't it, Anthony, because the charges were dropped by a real Trump loyalist who is now in a battle to try and save her job with the president.
[03:36]
Anthony
Right. Jeanine Pirro was a Fox News host for quite some time. She was a judge up in New York before that. But she got on Donald Trump's radar by hosting this kind of combative evening Fox commentary program. And he tapped her to be the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, which is a key role because it prosecutes crimes in D.C. federal crimes in D.C. has a lot of discretion on what she picks and what she prosecutes. And she was brought in by Trump to be a hard nosed person who was going to go after his enemies. This was a high profile case because Donald Trump made it so. He had been talking about the reflecting pool and the renovations and how great it was going to be. And then it all kind of fell apart and he was looking for someone to blame. And Jeanine Pirro, by bringing charges against Hearn and others, gave him that scapegoat to say this was vandals, these were liberals and not this was just a botched job. The change is that now on Friday, Pirro came in and said it was because it was a rushed and botched job, that the reflecting pool had been filled with algae, that it was peeling and she dropped the charges. That did not make Donald Trump happy at all.
[04:49]
Sarah
No, that's right. She got public rebuke from the president when he was talking to reporters in the White House on Monday.
[04:54]
Donald Trump
Lafayette park is a large park. It was known as the gateway to the White House. And it was disgusting. The monument is beautiful, graffiti all over it. I won't say what was on the sidewalk, but horrible, horrible, horrible, disgusting stuff. And not only did we fix it, we have military standing there watching it and if anybody touches it, we. That was the one mistake with the reflecting pond. They hadn't put up the cameras yet. They had enough up because you see what's happening. But if they would have had them up, we would have had a lot of. It would have been a lot easier. But. And I was disappointed with Jeanine Pirro, really disappointed with Jeanine Pirro. She, she folded like an umbrella and people get away with things and it's, it's a disgrace.
[05:44]
Sarah
Well, he's still got a good turn of phrase, hasn't he? Folded like an umbrella. But let's go back to the beginning to explain why he is so upset and angry about it. The reflecting pool is this long channel of water which is, I guess, what, three or four feet deep. But it stretches out from the Lincoln Memorial and it reflects the national monument, the sort of needle in the center of them all in Washington. Or it does sometimes. It's long had problems for decades before Donald Trump came into office. It had algae blooming in it and wasn't looking quite as beautiful as it might. And Trump decided he was going to tidy it up, not only as part of his long lasting legacy to Washington, but he wanted it done in time for the 4th of July this year for the 250th anniversary of the founding of America.
[06:27]
Asma Khalid
Yeah.
[06:28]
Anthony
If you remember, Martin Luther King Jr. S I have a Dream speech was delivered on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, looking out on that reflecting pool. Or for younger folks, the movie Forrest Gump, if you remember, which recreated that scene. His girlfriend Jenny ran into the reflecting pool and he ran in as well and they hugged in the middle of it. So it has.
[06:47]
Sarah
How young do you think people have seen?
[06:51]
Anthony
Yeah, okay, maybe I'm dating myself with that, too. Okay. That's the most recent pop culture reference that's on my radar. But anyway, it does have a symbolic place. And Donald Trump has focused on these symbols of Washington. He is a real estate developer by his past. He is always fixated on making things the biggest and the most beautiful. And since coming here, that has been something that he has really fixated on. Lafayette park, which is across the street from the White House, which you talked about in the beginning of that clip. These bronze statues, the arts of war statues that sit on Memorial Bridge on the other side of the Lincoln Memorial, have. I don't know if you've seen these pictures. They've been gilded, so now they are this blinding gold. The talk about building a triumphal arch on the other side of the Potomac river, all these fountains around Union Station, the train station, and elsewhere in D.C. so the reflecting pool was just part of it, but it was one that he talked a lot about going into it, going into the Fourth of July celebrations. And now here we are. It was kind of a mess. You mentioned the algae, you mentioned the peeling. And that was one of the reasons why Trump decided to point the fingers at vandals as the explanation, because he didn't want to acknowledge the fact that one of his prized renovation projects ended up being a botched job.
[08:10]
Sarah
Yeah, he was really excited about this. It's one of the things he's talked about quite frequently, especially when he announced that he decided what color it was going to be, he was going to change the look of it. So this is him back in the spring talking about what his plans were going to be and how great he thought it was going to be.
[08:25]
Donald Trump
A great, beautiful blue color, American flag blue, as opposed to gray.
[08:32]
Anthony
Right.
[08:32]
Donald Trump
Water's not gray, but it's one of those things. And instead of three and a half years, instead of three and a half years, it's one week. So think of that. One week. Don't everybody say, well, yeah, but you can't compare this. Yeah, you can't. It's much better. It's a much better chance. This will last for at least 50 years and you'll never have a leak. It's very strong. You couldn't. If you had a knife. I don't want to give anybody ideas. If you had a knife, you can't even cut it. So strong, so powerful, powerful rubber. It is beautiful sealed. And I looked at just one of the little pieces that they did to finish. It's like a piece of glass. Beautiful color, beautiful everything. You could never get any. Anything like that.
[09:18]
Anthony
So you can see why Donald Trump has become so defensive after that reflecting pool kind of fell apart. He had talked it up so much. I mean, this is really. Trump created this own problem for himself by saying things like that and making the reflecting pool, which I think most Americans, yes, they may have seen Forrest Gump, they may know something about the reflecting pool is not on their radar as far as a big issue. But Trump made it so by saying these things and becoming so defensive when that big, beautiful, super strong reflecting pool ended up not being the case.
[09:51]
Sarah
And he went about doing it in a very Trumpian way, of course. Bid a contract to people he knew who'd worked on swimming pools in his own golf properties before. Nobody else was allowed to bid on it, even Though it was a federal contract. So after just days after it was reopened, firstly there was more algae blooming across it than ever had been seen there before. So it was bright green, not American flag blue. And also this rubber seal, the base of it that had been put in that he claimed was so strong you could never cut it with a knife, started falling to bits. And you could see pieces of it floating on the, the surface of this blue plastic liner. And that's when he decided that it was vandalism that had done this. It wasn't a botched installation job at all. It was definitely vandal. So even though we just heard him saying you couldn't cut this with a knife even if you tried to, that's what he said. It happened that somebody had cut a 350 foot gash in this pool, which would be quite a feat actually, if you were going to try and do that. But that was the story about what had gone wrong with the pool.
[10:50]
Anthony
Right. And then after he said that, it was then that the Justice Department began releasing information about their investigations. They released videotape of what looked like some people kind of leaning over and maybe sticking their hands in the water. There's video of someone who did that being arrested by National Guard troops, detained by National Guard troops. And this was presented as evidence of the vandalism and then that high profile felony charge against David Hearn, the former US Olympian. And it was his case that led to Friday's developments where the charges were dropped against him because of the about face that Pirro underwent, saying that this was a botched job, a botched renovation job, and not any kind of example of vandalism.
[11:39]
Sarah
Yeah, but let's listen to Jeanine Pirro and the story she was telling last month when they were still sticking to this idea that it was vandalism, which, and remember, this is in complete contrast to her department filing charges at the end of last week saying it had nothing to do with vandalism. So listen to what she had to say in July.
[11:59]
Jeanine Pirro
The evidence shows, and we will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hearn willfully destroyed property at the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. This was a delivered act to damage the reflecting pool at the National Mall that members of the National Park Service actually have worked hard to restore and have witnessed. There was an effort, a violent effort to rip up the sealant from the bottom of the pool. And irrespective of whether or not, you know, we think that, you know, there is some situation that preceded it, we can state and prove beyond a reasonable Doubt that he caused damage, and that damage is over $1,000.
[12:50]
Anthony
Keying in on that. How do you prove that thousand dollars
[12:53]
Jeanine Pirro
with an expert come to the trial?
[12:57]
Anthony
Well, she has backed away from that statement now, and the Hearn side is not happy at all. His lawyers have released a statement saying that dropping the charges is not enough. The Justice Department owes Mr. Hearn an apology. He had actually told the BBC that he didn't destroy, rip, tear, peel or remove any part of the paint. But he hasn't publicly commented since that Friday decision to drop charges.
[13:26]
Sarah
Yeah, and we've got this weird row now going on between Doug Burgum, who is the Interior Secretary, and Jeanine Pirro. So Friday, her department moved to drop the charges, saying that it is Interior Department documents that have shown them that it was a botched installation that was the problem, not vandalism. The next day, Doug Burgum says on X that vandals repeatedly damaged the site, these acts were caught on camera, and that his agency has been forthcoming with the Justice Department lawyers. So, I mean, he's directly contradicting what Jeanine Pirro is saying and appears to be directly contradicting the evidence his own department provided to Jeanine Pirro. So this is completely bizarre. Is it simply that people like Jeanine Pirro, when she was talking back in July saying she had evidence of vandalism? Doug Burgum still this weekend maintaining that he has evidence of vandalism, will say in public what they know the president wants to hear, regardless of the evidence that they might be able to see themselves.
[14:23]
Anthony
Trump clearly wants this to be vandalism. I mean, he was out there saying that from the very beginning, for all the reasons that we've already discussed. So you could see why there would be a motivation among his aides, as there have been on other issues, to tell him what he wants to hear. All of this then, according to the New York Times, played out in the White House on Monday with Doug Burgum and Jeanine Pirro in front of Donald Trump arguing about whether this was or wasn't vandalism. Pirro apparently brought a box of documents that she presented to show that it wasn't vandalism, that it was the Interior Department's botched job that did it. Donald Trump still doesn't seem convinced by that. And he also seems much more angry at Pirro for publicly saying that all of these allegations of vandalism were wrong, rather than Burgum for handling what appears to be a faulty installation of this lining.
[15:23]
Sarah
Yes, because he is still Maintaining without the evidence that this was vandalism. It's very Emperor's New Clothes going on here, isn't it, that nobody will tell Donald Trump either that he's naked or that his pool lining was absolutely useless. But we thought when we saw Ginny Imperial going into the White House that she was going to be sacked because he had said already that afternoon that she had folded like an umbrella. He was obviously displeased with her. She and Doug Burgum both left the White House on Monday evening with their jobs intact. For now, having had this row in front of the President, both clearly stating their cases and insisting that they were right. Can we read anything, Anthony, into the fact that they're both still in post for now?
[16:04]
Anthony
Well, they're both still there for now, but if we were thinking Pirro' off the hook. Just last night on the tarmac in, in Los Angeles, Trump was asked about Piro's fate. And this is what he had to say.
[16:20]
Donald Trump
And I told her I was not happy.
[16:21]
Anthony
Is she safe? Are you going to keep her in the position?
[16:25]
Donald Trump
I haven't made a determination.
[16:28]
Sarah
So a determination remains on Jean Imperro's fate. And we'll see what else comes out about this row, because it is, it's. It's always fascinating to see MAGA luminaries like these two going at each other over this kind of issue about loyalty to Trump and how loyal you are, even when it possibly means that you're gonna have to embarrass yourself in court, or at what point you have to turn around and try and tell the President he's wrong. And we're talking here about the reflecting pool, which has become quite symbolic of the way Donald Trump's running his administration. But fundamentally, it doesn't matter that much. It is worrying, though, isn't it, Anthony, if you think that this is possibly the approach that's being taken to much, much bigger questions, including possibly the war with Iran, the situation with the Strait of Hormuz, if his own appointees can walk into the Oval Office and present boxes full of documentary evidence. And the President isn't convinced by that because there's another story that he wants to believe. This is a deeply worrying situation.
[17:25]
Anthony
Right. This is bigger than just the reflecting pool. I think one of the things we've seen with Donald Trump and his aides is that he is willing to part ways with them if they don't vigorously endorse his views and pursue his agenda. You remember Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, who was also very loyal to Donald Trump. She got pushed out by Trump earlier this year because according to reports, she wasn't prosecuting his enemies vigorously enough. You remember that post on Truth Social that apparently was supposed to be a private message to Bam Bondi, but it ended up going out to everyone where Trump said, pam, you've got to go after people like James Comey, the former FBI director, and Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York. And she didn't, she didn't do it in a way that Trump wanted. And so she was out. So here this is another instance where someone in Donald Trump's Justice Department wasn't going full bore against people that Donald Trump wanted targeted. Now, she definitely seems to be on tenuous ground, to say the least.
[18:32]
Sarah
One bit of good news, I suppose, for Donald Trump when it comes to his legal team around him is that the ever loyal Todd Blanche, his former personal lawyer who defended him in New York and some of those criminal cases there probably is going to end up as confirmed as his attorney general, right?
[18:48]
Anthony
It looks like it. Now, there was an impasse over the weekend. Another example of Donald Trump not getting what he wanted over a request by a handful of Republican senators that Blanche put in writing that this weaponization fund, the $1.8 billion as part of a settlement that Trump had with the IRS when they disclosed, or a contractor disclosed his tax returns to the media, that the settlement was truly and fully dead, that this fund wouldn't happen. Trump and the White House was not willing to do that for days. In fact, Trump threatened to pull Blanche's nomination and keep him on in an acting role. On Sunday, however, Blanche produced the letter saying, no, the this fund is fully dead. The Republican senators then shifted to supporting his nomination and now it looks like it is going to go to the floor of the Senate and will probably be confirmed by a very narrow margin. But getting Donald Trump's former defense attorney into the top job in the Justice Department, someone who has carried water for Trump time and time again, I think that has to be an example of him getting what he wants, even if he had to once again kind of acknowledge the political reality there to make some concessions.
[20:01]
Sarah
Yeah, I mean, you can put an alternative case and say that he has been embarrassed over the reflecting pool and the fact that the Justice Department had to drop the charges. He had to drop the idea of this $1.8 billion anti weaponization fund. He had to accept restrictions on where the IRS can do audits on him and his company's taxes. Some of the bigger ideas might be one way of putting it that Donald Trump has had, he has been forced to drop in the last few days. You could say it's not been a great time for Donald Trump. These schemes that maybe a few months ago he might have been able to get away with when he seemed to have more political clout. It's all falling to bits around him.
[20:39]
Anthony
Right. And all of these things, the reflecting pool, the Blanche nomination, these were issues that he could have taken care of if he hadn't been so obstinate, if he had been a little more low key about renovations in D.C. hadn't been bragging about him, if he had been willing to just let that $1.8 billion fund go and provide the written, the written evidence asserting that he didn't do that. He decided to go full bore and he ran headlong into some brick walls if you want to expand it even more. He's kind of doing the same thing in Iran. He has been talking about how Iran is begging for a deal, that the United States controls the Strait of Hormuz and that this war is going to be resolved with a clear American victory. And the facts on the ground, at least up until now, just haven't backed that up.
[21:26]
Sarah
Yeah. In the last few days, he's been saying again that we're very, very close to a deal. His treasury secretary, Scott Bessant, said that yesterday, on Tuesday, and we wait and see. It's possible by the time Americas are listening to this, some sort of deal about the Strait of Hormuz may have been announced. But I think you're right, Anthony, that it saps away at his credibility. And that might sound like a strange thing to say because there are a lot of people who don't believe a great deal of things that Donald Trump says anyway. But it's our job, you and me, to take him seriously because he deals with very, very serious matters and work out when he is telling the truth, when he is tell something that we ought to listen to. And that credibility is eaten away, isn't it, by the kind of things that we're talking about here. And the idea that he's got political luck and that he can make things happen has been shown not to be true over these other instances.
[22:13]
Anthony
So sitting here talking about reflecting pools and nominations and things, I think we can take two big takeaways from this 1. Donald Trump does not always accede to facts on the ground. He wants to make his alternative facts, which is that famous line from Kellyanne Conway in his first term and has gotten away with that in the past, but maybe not so much now. And the other thing is that he is surrounded right now mostly by people who will tell him what he wants to hear. And the few that don't tell him what he wants to hear pay a price for it. And these things, you know, Donald Trump's going to be president for another two years. These things could greatly complicate the remaining two years of his terms if there isn't some sort of way of him addressing that and correcting it.
[22:57]
Sarah
So with the great likelihood that Todd Blanche will shortly be the real attorney general, he's still the acting attorney general at the moment anyway, effectively running the Justice Department. Does that make any difference with Trump's own personal lawyer in place, that he will be able to bring these prosecutions that others have failed to against them? Trump opponents, he'll be under pressure to. Trump will be expecting him to do something on that. Right.
[23:19]
Anthony
And they clearly have a close relationship. I mean, that was one of the concerns that Democrats had as he was nominated for this top job in the Justice Department, is that it's supposed to be. There traditionally has been a firewall between the Justice Department and the president. But having the president's personal defense lawyer in the attorney General's job, if that firewall had already been eroded over the past year or so in Trump's second term, it is going to be virtually gone now. And Blanche coming in knows what Donald Trump wants. He wants him to go after his political enemies. He wants him to keep pushing ahead with the Comey prosecution and maybe to bring new charges against Letitia James. Adam Schiff, a senator from California, has also been one that Donald Trump once prosecuted. There's these investigations into the Federal Reserve and the renovations. Maybe that could be brought back up again. All of these things are going to be still clearly on Donald Trump's mind. And he has shown that he is more than willing to pick up the phone or get face to face with the attorney General and tell him or her to go after it. So this is something that Blanche is going to have to deal with and something that I think he knows coming into the job is going to be perhaps the biggest challenge for him.
[24:33]
Sarah
Yes. Well, that's quite something for Todd Blanche to have to try and cope with. Be careful what you wish for. I think sometimes maybe he might regret becoming confirmed as the Attorney general. We shall see. But anyway, with that, we should probably leave it there.
[24:45]
Anthony
Bye bye, bye, all.
[24:55]
Podcast Host/Producer
Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.co.uk, the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time. Bye.
[25:37]
Asma Khalid
President Trump has described the surge of migrants into Spain as an invasion. But what really happened in the tiny Spanish enclave known as Ceuta? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast on the BBC. Last week, tens of thousands of migrants from Morocco streamed into Ceuta. It ignited a political storm in Europe and even here in the US but who's really to blame? For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. President Trump has described the surge of migrants into Spain as an invasion, but what really happened in the tiny Spanish enclave known as Ceuta? I'm Asma Khalid and I host the Global Story podcast on the BBC. Last week, tens of thousands of migrants from Morocco streamed into Ceuta. It ignited a political storm in Europe and even here in the US but who's really to blame? For more, listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.