Where do the Democrats go from here?

Summary

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Americast – "Where do the Democrats go from here?"

BBC News | March 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode tackles a burning question among U.S. political observers: what is the future direction of the Democratic Party? As leading Democrats gather for their annual retreat in Leesburg, Virginia, Americast hosts Sarah Smith, Justin Webb, Marianna Spring, and Anthony Zurcher examine the party’s present drift, strategic dilemmas, and search for a compelling message in the Trump era. The hosts debate media challenges, the Gavin Newsom podcast experiment, grassroots frustration, and whether "playing dead" while Trump governs might actually be a tactic—joined by a sharp, candid interview with Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Democrats’ Crisis of Purpose

• Annual Retreat Focus: As Democrats huddle in Virginia, there’s a sense the party is "going back to basics" and searching for a new message and leadership voice.
  Sarah Smith: “They’ve got to go back to basics as to what they’re about, haven’t they?" (03:44)
• The stage is crowded with potential presidential candidates—governors and leadership figures—but no clear direction is evident.

2. The Challenge of Opposing "Post-Political" Donald Trump

• Media Saturation: Trump’s ability to dominate the media—conventional and social—makes traditional political strategies less effective.
  Justin Webb: "Can you oppose Donald Trump with conventional, normal ways... or does that sort of stuff not work just because Donald Trump is Donald Trump?" (04:29)
• Shadow Cabinet Idea: The hosts consider whether the Democrats could adopt a British-style "shadow cabinet" with daily responses, but question its utility in Trump’s America.
  Sarah Smith: “Donald Trump takes up so much of the oxygen from the media space, there’s not a huge amount left for the Democrats." (05:39)

3. Messaging and Media in the Age of Trump

• Breaking Through: Democrats, out of power in Congress, struggle to get their message to the public. Anthony Zurcher: “They have to find a way of getting the message out and breaking through and connecting with Americans... very difficult to do when Donald Trump is just dominating the airwaves and dominating the headspace of the American public.” (06:27)
• Social Media Disadvantage: Trump overwhelms not just traditional media, but also digital platforms, sidelining Democratic voices. Marianna Spring: “Even the ones who don't like Donald Trump, are getting more stuff about Donald Trump than they are about the Democrats... The ability to make content that gets traction... the Democrats haven't [nailed that], even though Kamala Harris had the infamous brat summer.” (07:18)

Notable Moment:

Gavin Newsom's approach—hosting podcasts with conservative figures like Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon—is discussed as a bold (or desperate?) attempt to be relevant and edgy online. The panel debates whether it’s effective or “sycophantic.”
Sarah Smith: “I thought [Newsom's podcast] was far more sycophantic than edgy, to be perfectly honest... falling over himself to be friendly to these hate figures." (11:22)

4. Democrat Strategy: Oppose vs. Engage

• Hands Across the Aisle vs. Grassroots Resistance: Newsom’s outreach is contrasted with Bernie Sanders’ rallies and direct appeals to working-class voters. Sarah Smith: “There is a danger that... there’s no grassroots resistance to what Donald Trump’s doing, but what he is doing is absolutely astonishing. The scale and speed... People aren’t on the streets in huge numbers protesting about it.” (12:11)

5. The "Play Dead" Tactic: Strategic Silence or Fatal Mistake?

• Some Democrats believe withdrawing and letting Trump "own" his presidency is best, then striking when things go wrong. Justin Webb: “There is an argument that all of this is madness. The thing to do is just stay completely silent and let Trump damage himself. And then when he damages himself, pounce.” (16:30)
• Bernie Sanders Pushback: Sanders derides this as disastrous—Democrats need to be bold, populist, and proactive.
  Bernie Sanders: "The problem is the Democrats have been playing dead for too many years... I don’t think you play dead. I think you stand up for the working class in this country..." (17:33)

6. Who Will Lead the Democrats Next?

• The hosts struggle to name a potential unifying candidate.
  Anthony Zurcher: “[Josh] Shapiro, [Gretchen] Whitmer, I think it’s going to be a governor... Democrats need someone who has an outsider’s perspective." (21:30)
• But waiting for presidential primaries may be too late to reconnect with disaffected core voters. Sarah Smith: "If they're not articulating the ways in which they feel Donald Trump is letting these people down, they'll just increase that disconnect, won't they?" (22:03)

7. Economic Populism and Cultural Recalibration

• The panel suggests Democrats’ best hope is to pivot away from elite, cultural left issues and focus on a radical economic message—but whether they can do so without appearing to abandon progressive causes remains divisive. Sarah Smith: “Cultural issues... there will be a debate about shedding all of that stuff so it doesn't confuse your core economic message...” (24:32)

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Interview Highlight: Congressman Seth Moulton

[25:03 – 36:03]

Congressman Seth Moulton—an outspoken Democratic critic—joins Justin Webb for a frank discussion on party reform, controversial views, and lessons in courage.

On Being Out of Touch:

Seth Moulton: "On the issue of trans women in sports... 80% of Americans agree with me. So the Democrats have taken this position that only 20% of the country shares, and they've made it a litmus test." (27:19)

On Democratic Debate and Fear of Dissent:

Seth Moulton: "Every one of those colleagues who came and thanked me for the op-ed and said, ‘I'm glad you said that,’ they thanked me in a whisper because they didn't want to be heard by the Democrat next to them..." (29:38)

On the "Play Dead" Strategy:

Seth Moulton: "Americans need to see leadership from Democrats, not just opposition, and they need to see a very public change... If we go into the next election and all the Democrats have done is oppose Trump... and offered no forward-looking vision ourselves, I just don't think we're going to turn this around." (31:58)

On Communication Challenges:

Seth Moulton: "We’re not as good at pithy communication as the Republicans... But I will say this. At least we’re trying to… Democrats need to be more authentic. We just have to tell the truth." (33:42)

On Courage:

Seth Moulton: “There are two types of courage, physical and moral... The more important type, and often the harder one to find, is moral courage. I think across the board in American politics today, we need more moral courage... Democrats need the courage to change.” (35:19)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Sarah Smith: “Democrats in the Senate could use their filibuster power... but a government shutdown actually plays into the hands of Republicans who don't want the government to run anyway." (06:27)
• Anthony Zurcher: “The risk for Gavin Newsom is the type of people who you might convince by having Charlie Kirk or Steve Bannon on his podcast are not the people who vote in Democratic presidential primaries. So he's ticking off a lot of true blue Democrats." (13:10)
• Bernie Sanders: "The problem is the Democrats have been playing dead for too many years." (17:33)
• Seth Moulton: “If I say this, I’ll generate controversy, which of course, is exactly what happened... The Democrats have become a party that just doesn’t even allow debate about contentious issues.” (29:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and Democratic Retreat Context: 01:14–03:44
• Trump’s Media Dominance & Shadow Cabinet Debate: 03:44–06:27
• Social Media Problem for Dems; Undercover Voters: 07:18–08:32
• Newsom’s ‘Edgy’ Podcast & Party Divide: 09:15–13:10
• Grassroots Frustration & Strategic Drift: 13:10–17:33
• Sanders vs. "Play Dead" Tactic: 17:33–19:17
• Leadership Search & Future Candidates: 21:16–23:00
• Economic Populism vs. Culture War: 24:32–25:03
• Seth Moulton Interview: 25:03–36:03

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Tone & Style

The hosts blend dry wit and healthy skepticism ("The retreat makes us sound like an episode of Friends"—Marianna, 02:29), with deep concern about the party’s lack of direction and inability to break through Trump’s media omnipresence. The mood is candid, often exasperated, sometimes amused, but underpinned by a sense of urgency about the Democrats’ predicament.

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Conclusion

This episode presents a vivid, critical snapshot of Democratic malaise. The party is depicted as caught between reform and retreat, between elite cultural battles and the need for economic populism, between the risks of engagement and the perils of silence. The interview with Seth Moulton exemplifies calls for both honesty and "moral courage"—but no one emerges with a clear solution or a unified plan. For listeners, it’s an insightful, sometimes sobering look at a party searching for itself amid extraordinary political tides.

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Transcript

[Justin Webb]

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[Marianna Spring]

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts do you remember the Democrats?

[Justin Webb]

They were a political party somewhat successful in the United States for some years. I'm only kidding. They are still there. But a lot of you have been asking, a lot of Americans have been asking, where exactly are they and why are they not? Louder. Well, they're holding an their annual retreat in the state of Virginia this week. And as they are discussing what they should and shouldn't be doing and formulating, well, some kind of plan for the immediate future, we thought we'd help them. We'll do our own Amerikast version. Where should the Democrats go from here? Welcome to AmericasT, the Retreat.

[Sarah Smith]

AmericasT.

[Greenlight Advertisement]

AmericasT from BBC News.

[Anthony Zurcher]

You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War three.

[Justin Webb]

President Trump's message is very simple.

[Anthony Zurcher]

We are done being taken advantage of.

[Marianna Spring]

Mr. President. In the name of our God, have.

[Justin Webb]

Mercy upon the people who are scared. Now.

[Bernie Sanders]

Are you supportive of these onesies?

[Seth Moulton]

I'm supportive of vaccines.

[Sarah Smith]

What is happening?

[Marianna Spring]

Like, this is not America. This is a terrible nightmare.

[Sarah Smith]

This is what victory feels like.

[Seth Moulton]

Yeah.

[Marianna Spring]

The retreat makes us sound like an episode of Friends.

[Justin Webb]

The one where.

[Sarah Smith]

The one with the retreat.

[Justin Webb]

The one where Anthony does X, Y or Z. The one where Anthony had Marmite for the first time.

[Sarah Smith]

Okay. Hello, it's Sarah here. I'm not that far from Virginia in Washington D.C. in the BBC bureau.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, it is Anthony, right here next to you. Although I sometimes come up from Virginia also Even closer to where the Democrats are.

[Justin Webb]

And it's Justin. I wish I was in Virginia, but I'm actually in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England.

[Marianna Spring]

And it is Marianna, aka misinformation, sitting alongside Justin in the worldwide headquarters. Yeah.

[Sarah Smith]

So it's Leesburg, Virginia, where the Democrats are all huddled together now, trying to come up with, well, a purpose really for them, for their strategy for how to tackle Donald Trump. And it's quite interesting to note some of the people who are going to be speaking there, because I think there's pretty much a roster of potential presidential candidates there. We've got three governors from Kentucky and year from Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro from Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer, the House Speaker, Hakeem Jeffries is talking to them. So there will be a little bit of rivalry about who emerges as the voice of leading the Democrats. But Anthony, I mean, they've really got to go back to basics as to what they're about, haven't they?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, they've got to find a message. People who listen to this podcast will remember multiple times during the Biden administration, I expressed shock at how flat footed the Biden team seemed to be to entirely predictable events that happened. Well, I thought that was a Biden problem. Maybe it's just a Democratic problem because everyone knew what Donald Trump was gonna do when he became president. The plan was laid out in Project 2025, and though Trump disavowed it, clearly that was gonna be a blueprint for a lot of the policy things they were gonna do. And yet Democrats seem to be unable to have any kind of a focus, unable to have any kind of a cohesive strategy to deal with it. So here they are now on their retreat, trying to figure it all out. Good luck to them.

[Justin Webb]

Well, okay, and let's get them, give them fair wind by having our own kind of digital retreat. I think we should all come up with something that we think they probably are talking about rather than something they ought to be talking about. And I think the thing that I would suggest is whether, as I heard someone describe Donald Trump the other day, he is post political. In other words, can you oppose Donald Trump? Never mind what the policies are for the next presidential election, although we'll get to all of that. But can you oppose Donald Trump? Trump, can you find ways of getting at him that are the kind of conventional, normal ways? I saw someone, Sarah, talking about having a shadow cabinet, which of course is not an American thing to have, but the idea being that you have someone who's savvy with the media, perhaps Pete Buttigieg, the guy who might well be running, it seems for the president in 2028, is a very good media performer, was transport secretary under Biden. You get someone like that and you do it every day. You, you hold some sort of news conference and you fix on something and you try and get some sort of publicity around it or in the era of Donald Trump, does that sort of stuff not work just because Donald Trump is Donald Trump?

[Sarah Smith]

There's a problem, I think, with appointing the equivalent of the minister for the Today program, the Democrat for the Sunday shows or whatever it would be in that Donald Trump takes up so much of the oxygen from the media space, there's not a huge amount left for the Democrats. But I think they will be talking about this just. And I think you're right about that, and I think they ought to be, because it's difficult to oppose Donald Trump himself. He's immune to charges of hypocrisy. He doesn't seem to care about when he's caught telling untruths. And so, you know, traditional means won't work. But they're doing such dramatic things, whether it's to the Department of Education, whether it's to environmental protections, whether it's to USAID and the State Department, you name it. I think the Democrats should be tackling them issue by issue and explaining what all of these radical changes are doing to ordinary people's lives in America.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Right. And I think it's a messaging challenge because they don't have power. I mean, that's the bottom line, is they don't control either chamber of Congress. Republicans have proven to be very good at sticking together in the House of Representatives so far, despite their razor thin majority and the ideological divisions within the Republican Party, Democrats in the Senate, they could conceivably use their filibuster power to try to block things, but the consequences of that could be a government shutdown. And a government shutdown actually plays into the hands of Republicans who don't want the government to run anyway. It's furthering their ends. At least that's the concern that some Democrats have. So they have to find a way of getting the message out and breaking through and connecting with Americans. And as Sarah mentioned, that is very difficult to do when Donald Trump is just dominating the airwaves and dominating kind of the headspace of the American public.

[Marianna Spring]

Also, it's not just the airwaves. You know, Donald Trump's ability to really, really dominate the social media space, whether it is in a good way Or a negative way he takes up so much space that again, you know, when I'm looking on my Undercover voters drum roll, my fictional characters, their profiles across the main sites, even the ones who don't like Donald Trump, are getting more stuff about Donald Trump than they are about the Democrats and the way that he succeeded in. I mean, there's particular places that Donald Trump has done a very good job if the metric of good is dominating the space, like X, for example, which is, which is overrun by support for him, really, and messaging around him. But even on other sites, like TikTok, for example, or other kind of video like Instagram reels, again, like the, the. The. The ability to make the kind of content that gets traction, that gets eyeballs, that gets views and that taps into things that people like or interested in or find funny or care about. He. They just seem to have nailed that, as we saw throughout the election, in a way that the Democrats haven't. Even though Kamala Harris had the infamous brat summer that we spoke about, it didn't really succeed in reaching anyone new or different. And I think that's probably the crucial difference between.

[Justin Webb]

Well, on, on that subject, if they are thinking of reaching new and different people, they are already the way shown to them by Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, who has not only got that job, but has now taken it upon himself to be a podcaster and specifically to have really Pali interviews with people who are hate figures, and I use that word advisedly. Really hate figures, aren't they, Mariana? To many people on the left in the states. And I'm just wondering what you're going to hear of those, what you're seeing of those online. But before we get to that, let's hear a bit of Gavin Newsom. And Charlie Kirk, a Democrat strategist, would.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Say, oh, Charlie, you're weaponizing stuff. Not you, but like, that's a typical, typical thing. But the most effective ad of this election cycle. The most effective ad. You know what it is?

[Seth Moulton]

Yeah.

[Justin Webb]

And devastating. Trump's for you, she's for they. Them.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And devastating again. Devastating, devastating, devastating.

[Justin Webb]

And she didn't even react to it, which was even more.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And let's talk about why it was devastating. Number one, it was the trans issue.

[Marianna Spring]

So, you know, it's not hard to see where Gavin Newsom might have got the idea of doing this from. Donald Trump et al were very good during the election at popping up on a whole range of podcasts. We spoke about Joe Rogan, but we've spoken about other streamers that he appeared with and so on and so forth. Because these are spaces where lots of people are getting their analysis and news, not the traditional media, professional media, whatever you want to call it, in the same way they were before. So it makes sense to kind of enter those spaces. But I guess in order then for a podcast like Gavin Newsoms to get some traction, he's sort of got to do some stunts, right? He's got to have people on who he might not normally have. You want the social media clips probably to go quite viral. And someone like Charlie. Charlie Kirk has a massive following online. At the heart of this issue is that the social media sites, which host a lot of these kind of podcasts and their content and alternative media outlets more generally, but also host this content more generally, they favor stuff that gets engagement. They favor stuff that triggers an emotional reaction, whether it's positive or negative, and nuanced politics that's a bit boring and a bit slow or a bit sort of like, oh, you can't say that, or you mustn't say that, it doesn't fly online. And so I'm just interested in how the Democrats are going to manage to align that style of politics with this new social media era. It's not even new because it's been going on for a long time now.

[Justin Webb]

New to some of us, but.

[Marianna Spring]

But certainly the alternative media sort of circuit is. Is much stronger than it was four years ago.

[Justin Webb]

I mean, Sarah, the edginess of the Newsom thing is, is in the fact that he's having on people who are hate figures. But, I mean, he made a bit of news with that trans stuff. But there is also a kind of sense, isn't it? He's going to places that were previously forbidden for a Democrat to go to. And that is meant to be exciting and interesting and edgy and all the rest of it. Can we say that it's working?

[Sarah Smith]

Well, I mean, he certainly got a lot of attention when he said, talking to Charlie Kirk, that trans athletes competing in female sports is deeply unfair, because that cuts across quite a lot of the orthodoxy in the Democratic Party. Other than that, I mean, I thought it was far more sycophantic than edgy, to be perfectly honest. I've listened to three of them. The most recent him talking to Steve Bannon. And it's one thing to say, look, we've gotta try and find some common solutions, or that simply hating on each other and opposing everything each other does isn't the way forward for the country. And it's quite another for Democrats to hear somebody like Gavin Newsom falling over himself to be friendly to these hate figures, talking about how he's been joking around with President Trump and all sorts of anecdotes.

[Justin Webb]

He does that in every single edition, have you noticed? Every single one he gets in some anecdote about being on Air Force One with the president.

[Sarah Smith]

And there's a different strategy here. I mean, different Democrats are taking different paths to this. And some of them say, look, Donald Trump got elected. A lot of the country wanted what he was promising. So we can't just oppose absolutely everything for the sake of it. We've got to try and find a way to work together and work out what it is that voters wanted for Donald Trump and how we can offer them some version of that. So this idea of hands across the aisle, Gavin Newsom's not alone in it. He's just doing it in a sense, slightly different way. Others want to be far more combative, and this is presumably something they'll be talking about in Leesburg this weekend. But I think there is a danger that voters, and particularly committed Democrats think that the guys are all missing in action at the moment. There's no grassroots resistance to what Donald Trump's doing, but what he is doing is absolutely astonishing. The scale and the speed of what he's doing to America. And people aren't on the streets in huge numbers protesting about it. And they're not seeing their political leaders taking them anywhere on this either. And I think there is a real sense of frustration about that. Anthony, do you agree?

[Justin Webb]

Yeah.

[Anthony Zurcher]

The risk for Gavin Newsom is the type of people who you might convince by having Charlie Crook or Steve Bannon on his podcast are not the people who vote in Democratic presidential primaries. So he's ticking off a lot of true blue Democrats. The ones who do turn out and New Hampshire and South Carolina and Nevada and the early primary states, and those are the ones that he's going to have to win over. I think other members of the Democratic Party who try to sound more like Bernie Sanders, who say, yes, we need to reach blue collar voters, we need to do it with a populist, Democratic, liberal message and not some sort of cut to the middle, let's reach across the aisle kind of thing, I think they're going to have more effectiveness in the Democratic primary, although it is early. Like, we still have two years, two and a half years before things really start ramping up for the Democratic presidential primary process. And in the meantime, even before they.

[Sarah Smith]

Find a candidate, they've got to just Keep people on board with the party, haven't they? Remind them that the Democrats exist and that they have a purpose, even if that purpose is only to oppose. Bernie Sanders is out there doing rallies and things, isn't he? He's getting a few thousand people a time coming to listen to him. I wonder, Anthony, if the problem is not so much Gavin Newsom's message, but it could he in many ways, I think embodies a lot of the Democrats problem. He is the definition of a coastal elite, overeducated, overly sophisticated, metropolitan kind of type who doesn't represent the blue collar workers that Bernie Sanders appeals to and who've moved from the Democrats to Donald Trump.

[Justin Webb]

Sounds like his dating president.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And Democrats want or Democrats want their leaders to do something, as you said. In fact, there was a comedian Stephen Colbert after that State of the Union presidential address to Congress that Donald Trump made where the Democrats held up little placards saying false and lies and defend Medicaid and all those, he held up a little placard that said do something on it. The problem is that there's not a lot Democrats can do policy wise with political power right now. So they have to try in this meeting and other meetings, try to find some way of doing something that doesn't involve passing legislation or blocking legislation in Congress. And that falls, I think on some of these governors. They're the ones running their states. They could do something. They are filing suit against the Trump administration trying to block some of these policies. And court battles are ongoing. You see some Democrats holding town hall meetings in Republican districts because Republicans, as we've discussed, have stopped holding town halls because of angry constituents. So Bernie Sanders and others are going into red conservative districts and speaking with voters there. And the more they find ways to seem like they're getting the message out, to seem like they're motivating the base to oppose. I think the more helpful it will be for Democrats. When we get closer to those midterm.

[Marianna Spring]

Elections next year, it's worth bringing in an email that we've had from an Americaster, Hugh Doble, who says, dear ameracast team, I have a question regarding the Democrats tactics during the Trump presidency. They appear to be very quiet at the moment. People have accuse them of being awol. I'm curious if this in itself is a tactic, could the Democrats just simply be looking to give Trump and his followers enough rope to hang themselves? By the Democrats providing no resistance, it means that Trump will have no option but to own the consequences of his actions. You've kind of started to answer that.

[Justin Webb]

But, yeah, well, I mean, the thing is, and James Carville, the Ragin Cajun, the guy who invented and got Bill Clinton into Office in the 90s, has suggested it in a New York Times article that's caused quite a stirring, basically saying, I mean, it didn't quite mean that they should do nothing, but basically saying there is a moment where you should pounce, and this probably isn't the moment. And when you think of all that is potentially going wrong in the Trump administration, particularly on the economic front, you know, there is an argument, and they're certainly going to be talking about this at their retreat in Leesburg, and we should address it at our digital retreat. Now, there is an argument that all of this is madness. The thing to do is just stay completely silent and let Trump damage himself. And then when he damages himself, pounce. So does that strategy impress other Democrats? As with everything that is discussed in the modern Democratic Party, there are some who it does impress, but there are plenty, including big figures, who are not impressed. This was Bernie Sanders on NBC's Meet the Press.

[Bernie Sanders]

The problem is the Democrats have been playing dead for too many years. 60% of our people live paycheck to paycheck. We have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had in the history of this country. We have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country. Millions of seniors are struggling to heat their homes and put food on the table. I don't think you play debt. I think you stand up for the working class in this country and make the point that right now the Trump administration is clearly an administration designed to represent the interest of the musks of the world. 13 of the people that he nominated to head agencies are billionaires.

[Marianna Spring]

And that play dead phrase, what does that actually mean?

[Justin Webb]

Well, what he was suggesting is you just wait and you wait. You wait, you wait out all of this stuff. You don't, on every single day, as we were suggesting earlier on, have someone, a shadow cabinet person, Pete Buttigieg, whoever it is, saying on this day, we're going on this subject and we're attacking them on this. You just don't do any of that. You wait and you wait for the whole thing to fall over and then you, and then you pounce. And the problem with it is that you then don't, I suppose, Anthony, create your own alternative. And it's something we don't always talk about. But I think it's a really interesting suggestion from Bernie Sanders and not a new one from him. Is that the Democrats should be getting together their own populist message. So in other words, you don't attack him in the conventional way, but what you do is you have a kind of left wing populism and particularly left wing economic populism that counters Trump and counters him in a way that people can immediately grasp.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And Bernie Sanders was campaigning 10 years ago on a kind of an economic populism, warning that billionaires were taking over the country and inequality was growing. And here we are now with Donald Trump, as Bernie Sanders points out, with many billionaires in his cabinet, of course, the wealthiest man in the world riding around with him on Air Force One and showing off Teslas on the grounds of the White House and everything else that we've seen Elon Musk do. So Bernie Sanders probably, I don't know whether he feels vindicated or he feels frustrated, but I think you could hear a little of that in his tone of voice. The play dead strategy. I mean, if you view American politics as a pendulum that swings back and forth and one party in power tends to push as much as they can, but then the public sours on that and the pendulum swings back the other way, then, yeah, playing dead is going to work. Eventually, the American public will get tired of Donald Trump. In theory, we have a Virginia governor's election, a New Jersey governor's election later this year that will give Democrats a chance to rally around candidates, that will give people a platform to get their message out and start to maybe voice some of these populist messages and see how it resonates with voters. Of course, in midterm elections, there'll be a lot of opportunity for Democrats all over the country to start to make the case and see how the different kinds of strategies that they have work with voters. And then you get into the presidential primary process where there will be candidates from all over the political spectrum on the Democratic side, and they will all be in a very open process. There's no Joe Biden dominating it. There's no Hillary Clinton who seems the heir apparent. There will be a very kind of a robust debate. And from that, I think Democrats have to hope, if this waiting strategy works, that someone with the best message will step forward, someone who can connect with voters will step forward, and that they will be able to move the party in a different direction.

[Justin Webb]

Tell us who that's going to be, Anthony.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Well, Sarah wants to disagree with me.

[Marianna Spring]

First.

[Justin Webb]

I want to put you on the spot and ask you who the presidential candidate is going to be for the Democrats in 2020. 8 Because it's an oddly difficult question to answer, isn't it? And that's the thing about American politics. People emerge.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Absolutely. And I honestly don't know. I think someone like Josh Shapiro might have the potential. I think Gretchen Whitmer, I think it's going to be a governor. It's not going to be someone in Washington, in Congress, because Democrats need to have someone who has an outsider's kind of perspective. I mean, Pritzker, the governor of Illinois, who doesn't look much like a politician, he's short and swarthy and heavy. But that might be the kind of pugnacious counterpoint to the Republicans that will resonate with Democratic voters.

[Sarah Smith]

I tell you what, I think the problem for the Democrats with some of what you were outlining there, Anthony, is that if they follow that strategy, by the time they're looking at these presidential primaries, it might be too late. Because there is an argument that says the reason we've got Donald Trump in the White House is that the Democrats had abandoned their electoral base, that they didn't look like they were supporting the working families anymore, they looked as though they had abandoned their blue collar supporters and that they were just simply a party of the wealthy elites who felt completely disconnected from voters, who had totally different concerns about bread and butter issues and couldn't care less about pronouns or any of the more politically correct things that the Democrats were obsessing over. So a lot of voters will tell you they feel the party moved away from them, not vice versa. If they're not saying anything now, if they're not articulating the ways in which they feel Donald Trump is letting these people down, they'll just increase that disconnect, won't they? To the point where they won't be seen by many people as a potential alternative.

[Anthony Zurcher]

I think sometimes just anyone but the incumbent works as a campaign strategy. And obviously if Donald Trump does well and the economy bounces back and things are looking good, then he might have an advantage. And then it's a much more difficult position for Democrats to be in. But it's going to be a difficult position if that's the case anyway.

[Sarah Smith]

But they have to reposition themselves. Don't they have to get away from at least a decade, if not more, of moving more and more towards better off, better educated people? And if they're going to make that really significant pivot in who they appeal to and who their message is designed for, you can't just wait until the presidential primaries to do that, can you?

[Anthony Zurcher]

No, no, I Think you probably can. I mean, remember five years ago we thought Republicans were dead in the water. Four years after Donald Trump left and his politics had failed and Republicans were in total disarray. One of the things that Donald Trump showed, and it is a political truth, but it's easier, more effective to run against a villain. Donald Trump ran against villains, globalists and violent immigrants and wacky lefty liberals who were telling you what to do. The Democrats could very well find that the best strategy for them is to run against the villains of billionaires and corporate powers and people who are trying to line their own pockets and abuse the system, who are the ones living on the yachts and in the penthouses. That is, it has proven to be over history and it could be for Democrats going forward, a way for them to get the, get the initiative back from Republicans.

[Marianna Spring]

Yeah.

[Sarah Smith]

When you say moving to the center or getting away from the left, Justin, it kind of depends what you mean. I think the cultural issues that Anthony was just talking about there, there will be a debate about shedding all of that stuff so that it doesn't confuse your core economic message and doesn't make you look as though you're out of touch with the center of the American population, whilst at the same time possibly selling a considerably more radical left wing message on the economy, but without confusing it with all of the trans stuff or all the other kind of PC politically correct things that Democrats have got themselves tied in knots in over the last few years.

[Justin Webb]

Well, Sarah, talking about those issues is a perfect way to segue to the interview that I've done with Seth Moulton, who is a congressman who caused a real stir immediately after the election, immediately after Kamala Harris lost by saying, among other things, that he had two young daughters, that he wanted them to be able to play sports without, as he put it, being run over by males on a sports pitch. It caused an immediate huge outcry and as he said, you know what, that is the sort of discussion that we ought to be able to have in the Democratic Party. So I've been talking to him not just about that issue, but about the wider issues. What should the Democrats do now? Congressman, first of all, just a Warm welcome to AmericasT and thanks a lot for taking the time. It's a busy time. Taking the time to talk to us.

[Seth Moulton]

It is a busy time, but I'm glad to be here.

[Justin Webb]

Are you actually at the retreat in Virginia?

[Seth Moulton]

I'm not actually. This is an incredibly difficult time to find time with your family. So I'm actually spending A little bit of time with my kids, which is unusual in this business. But important.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, really important. Well, we particularly appreciate you being with us, but are you not at the retreat because they wouldn't let you go because they're cross with you or you genuinely, this is family time.

[Seth Moulton]

Well, my concern with the retreat is that it would be a lot of more of the same, and I think the Democratic Party really needs to change and make some reform.

[Justin Webb]

Well, that's really interesting. Yeah, I mean, let's start with that then, because you said some pretty incendiary things, and I want to talk about the whole party and a range of subjects as well, and some of the deeper issues, too. But just to start with the business of trans rights and the rights of girls sports. You gave an interview, didn't you, to the New York Times quite soon after the election, and you said that you had two daughters and you didn't want them to be being mown down or bowled over. I can't remember exactly what the phrase was by biological males. And you said, as a Democrat, I ought to be able to say that. And it's that last bit, I think, that really interests everyone, because as a Democrat, you weren't really able to say that, were you?

[Seth Moulton]

That's right. And that's the whole point. It's actually one of several examples I used of issues where the American public just feels that we're out of touch on this issue of trans women in sports. 80% of Americans agree with me. So the Democrats have taken this position that only 20% of the country shares, and they've made it a litmus test. So when I, one of the Democrats who criticized me started by saying, I thought you were a Democrat, like, questioning my party allegiance, just because we can't even have a debate about this very debatable issue. But it goes well beyond that, too. I talked about immigration, about how Democrats for so long denied that there was a problem at the southern border. I talked about inflation, about how the Biden administration pretended it was going to go away.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And.

[Seth Moulton]

And I think the result is that a lot of Americans looked at our party as a whole and said, you're just out of touch with reality. You don't understand what we're dealing with on the ground here. And I heard people say to me, yes, I know that guy's a nutcase talking about Trump, but how can I vote for the Democrats? You're just so out of touch.

[Justin Webb]

I suppose the answer to that on the progressive wing of the party would be, well, we need to get our message across better. And we need to persuade people on all of these issues, these cultural issues included, we need to persuade people that we're right.

[Seth Moulton]

That's exactly right. That's exactly the attitude they take, which is another way of saying, I'm gonna preach to you, I'm gonna scold you, I'm gonna tell you that when we disagree on issues, you're not only wrong, but you're a bad person for feeling that way. And that's the sentiment that a lot of Americans heard from the Democratic Party. You're not only out of touch, you think you're better than us. And that really gets under people's skin.

[Justin Webb]

Do you have a sense that there is within the party a mood that says, actually, you know what, Seth Moulton, gosh, he caused a stir immediately after the election, but he might be right. And I'm thinking we've mentioned it earlier on with my colleagues. Earlier on in this edition of our podcast, we mentioned Gavin Newsom, the governor of California. This podcast that he's doing, I mean, is the part party coming around to your way of thinking, do you think, or significant elements of it?

[Seth Moulton]

It is coming around. And let me give you a little context for this. You know, this, this controversial quote that should not be controversial, but that was my whole point, right, Is that if I say this, I'll generate controversy, which of course, is exactly what happened. I, I gave that as part of a long, I don't know, 20 minute New York Times interview on a variety of reasons why I thought we lost the election. And it was one of several issues I raised, including immigration, inflation, some others I've mentioned. But it was also in the context of a number of different reasons why we lost, including mistakes that President Biden made, mistakes that Vice President Harris made, and yet this one idea about how we've become a party that just doesn't even allow debate about contentious issues, it seems to really resonate with people. And so when I, I explained this further in a Washington Post op ed at the end of November, I'll tell you, I've never had more colleagues come up to me and say, you're absolutely right, Seth, you've hit the nail on the head. This is our core problem. And I heard that from colleagues across the political spectrum, as you might imagine, some more moderate colleagues, but a lot of very liberal colleagues as well. So I do think that this is one of the central problems the Democratic Party faces. The challenge, of course, is getting more people to speak up about it, because every one of those colleagues who came and thanked me for the op ed and said, I'm glad you said that. They thanked me in a whisper because they didn't want to be heard by the Democrat next to them for fear that that Democrat wouldn't be. Wouldn't agree. Right. I mean, this is how bad this we're like in ideological straitjackets. It's just terrible. So, yes, there are a lot of colleagues who agree with me, not just on this specific issue, but on the broader problem. They agree so much that they think it's really core to what we need to change about our party. And yet very few have been willing to speak out publicly.

[Justin Webb]

What do you make of the idea? We were also talking about earlier that the kind of James Carville plan that you and he would be very much on your side, of course, with all the things you've just said. But he might say, well, there's no need to do too much too early. Let's just wait, let's bide our time, let's Trump. Let Trump kind of implode and we can sort all these things out nearer the time of the next presidential election.

[Seth Moulton]

Well, I'm careful to criticize Carville because he's got 10 times more political experience than I do. That's probably an underestimate, maybe a hundred times. But I think he's wrong on this in an important way. I think Americans need to see leadership from Democrats, not just opposition, and they need to see a very public change. Because if we go into the next election and all the Democrats have done is oppose Trump, just opposed him on everything across the board, no matter what, no matter if there's any merit to it whatsoever. And we've offered no forward looking vision ourselves, no leadership and no acknowledgement that we made some mistakes and that's why we lost then. I just don't think we're gonna turn this around. And some people say that this is like, you know, 1990 and we're heading into 1992 after two terms of Reagan and one term of George H.W. bush. Clinton was this breath of fresh air and he brought the party back to the center and it was a huge Democratic revolution. My concern is that it might not be 1990, but more like 1982. And we're just headed into more losses because we're unwilling to change.

[Justin Webb]

Another thing we've talked about, and we talked about quite a lot on the podcast because it is fascinating is how you do political communications in the modern era. And there's absolutely no question, is it that the Republicans found their voice. At the last presidential election, they found places for their voice to be heard. That's, I suppose, the really key thing. Can you see the party getting to grips with that and finding a way of being edgy enough just to be interesting, I suppose, is the issue.

[Seth Moulton]

I'll freely admit we're not as good at pithy communication as the Republicans and probably haven't for some time now. I'm always careful to point out that this is not an excuse in and of itself. I mean, we can't just blame our problems on communication. We also have to change our attitude, as I've described. But, yes, we do have to figure out how to get better at communication, and I think we're honestly struggling a bit to do so. You saw some fits and starts during the joint address from Trump, for example, and Democrats were widely criticized for some Democrats showed up with little paddles that looked kind of weak, or it wasn't clear whether they were at a joint session of Congress or at an auction. And there are others who were wearing all pink, but just didn't seem to gel and convey a meaningful message. But I will say this. At least we're trying to. I mean, we do have to get out there and try some things. And not every interview I do is brilliant. But the core point, I think, is that Democrats need to be more authentic. We just have to tell the truth. And one of the real breakthroughs that I had in communication in the last six months was when I became one of the very first to speak out and just say what so many of us were saying behind the scenes, which is that President Biden has got to step aside. And it wasn't a revolutionary statement. It was just a huge dose, a blunt dose of honesty.

[Justin Webb]

And when you talk about being authentic and brave, we should finish just by saying, you are a former Marine, aren't you, as well as being a Harvard graduate.

[Seth Moulton]

Yeah, we use the term Marine veteran because we have this point, once a Marine, always a Marine. And so I'm proud to say that. But I do think that one of the core, most important lessons I learned from the Marine Corps is that there are two types of courage, physical courage and moral courage. And the Marines always said people imagine physical courage when they think of Marines. But the more important type of courage, and often the harder one to find, is moral courage. I think across the board in American politics today, we need more moral courage. Republicans need the courage to stand up and speak out against Trump because that's what they say behind the scenes. And Democrats need the courage to change.

[Justin Webb]

Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you so much for taking the time away from your family to talk to us.

[Seth Moulton]

Thank you. Have a good day.

[Marianna Spring]

Okay, just before the end of this episode, there's something that we wanted to ask you about, Anthony. It's been going particularly viral on TikTok. Have you ever heard of the tea time alarm?

[Anthony Zurcher]

No. Tea time alarm.

[Marianna Spring]

So in the UK we have this thing where when it's tea time, this is what all of the British tick tockers are talking about and the Americans are quite perplexed by it. We have this thing, don't we, Justin, where this tea time alarm goes off.

[Justin Webb]

Had it for years.

[Marianna Spring]

We've had it for years and every time it goes off you have to have a cup of tea no matter where you are and if you don't, then you get in trouble. And so, for example, people have been talking about being sent on tea time alarm awareness courses. They've been talking about some of the sanctions they've been placed under if you don't have your tea.

[Justin Webb]

Including prison?

[Marianna Spring]

Including prison even. And American tiktokers are absolutely losing it at the tea time alarm. Are you convinced, Anthony?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Does the tea time alarm only go off at tea time or could it go off anytime during the day or night?

[Marianna Spring]

It doesn't tend to go off in the middle of the night. That'd be a bit antisocial and it would be a bit inappropriate to have tea really. But, but more around actually, you know when tea time is exactly four.

[Sarah Smith]

Four but near.

[Marianna Spring]

Yeah, exactly that. See, Sarah's a bit out of. She's about the loop of the tea time alarm because she's over there.

[Justin Webb]

Well, we should make it clear it's hot tea.

[Marianna Spring]

It's why we always have to finish recording by a certain time. Because of the tea time.

[Justin Webb]

Oh dear. The tea time alarm has gone off.

[Marianna Spring]

Okay. As you can imagine, this is actually not real. There's no tea time alarm. I'm sorry, America.

[Justin Webb]

It is a real thing online.

[Marianna Spring]

So online British. And it is such a symptomatic of like the clash between British and American sense of humours. Like, like Brits have not on TikTok, there have been these incredibly viral videos of Brits talking about the tea time alarm and Americans absolutely earnestly asking questions about the tea time alarms. And then all the Brits in the comments are going along with it and no one's giving it away. Like no one's had to say anything. Everyone is just saying the tea time alarm is a thing. So maybe the Democrats should get into that kind of trend because it makes people laugh and maybe, maybe Americans less so, but certainly us.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Right, so the BBC announces over the radio it's tea time and everyone has to run. Or the Big Ben. Exactly. That. The bell rings.

[Justin Webb]

You're getting the hang of it, Anthony. Very much what Britain is like.

[Sarah Smith]

And it was a lot easier, Justin, wasn't it, when the tea trolley came around and then you just obviously knew it was tea time and they brought it to your desk.

[Marianna Spring]

Yeah, well, exactly. Anyway, the tea time alarm's going to go off, so we better go.

[Justin Webb]

It has gone.

[Marianna Spring]

But thank you so much for listening to this episode.

[Justin Webb]

Well done for not biting, Anthony.

[Marianna Spring]

I didn't think he'd be convinced. See you later.

[Justin Webb]

Bye bye.

[Sarah Smith]

Bye.

[Marianna Spring]

Ameracast Ameracast from BBC News.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Thanks for listening to Amerast from BBC News. You can subscribe to this podcast on the free BBC Sounds Appreciate.

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