Who is Tucker Carlson and what does he tell us about the future of MAGA?

Summary

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Americast — Who is Tucker Carlson and What Does He Tell Us About the Future of MAGA?

Date: February 20, 2026
Hosts: Justin Webb, Anthony Zurcher (BBC)
Special Guest: Jason Zengerle, Contributing Writer at The New Yorker and author of a new book on Tucker Carlson

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the evolution, influence, and future of Tucker Carlson within U.S. conservatism and the MAGA movement. The hosts explore how Carlson rose from an establishment pundit to a major force on the populist right, his role in mainstreaming fringe narratives, and how the changing media landscape has amplified his impact. Special guest Jason Zengerle provides expert insight into Carlson's career trajectory and what it signals about the direction of American conservatism post-Trump.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Tucker Carlson as a Barometer for American Conservatism

• [01:10] Justin Webb frames the episode: Republicans control the presidency, Senate, House, and Supreme Court but feel uneasy about the party’s future—mainstream or extremist?
• [02:49] Anthony Zurcher highlights Carlson’s journey: “The evolution of Tucker Carlson from kind of an establishment conservative...to this populist rabble-rouser...really does tell us a lot about where the Republican Party, where the conservative movement is in America over the past two decades.”
• [03:37] A montage of Carlson clips illustrates his communication style and major themes: replacement conspiracy theories, election fraud, Christian-rooted free speech.
  • Key Quote: “Now, I know that the left and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term replacement...but they become hysterical because that’s what’s happening. Actually, let's just say it, that's true.” – Tucker Carlson
• The hosts dissect the extent to which Carlson’s populism is genuine versus performative. Anthony suggests lawsuits after the 2020 election showed a less committed, more pragmatic Carlson behind the scenes. “If it’s an act, he's been sticking with it for quite some time now.” – Anthony Zurcher ([06:14])

2. Carlson’s Influence and Positioning Within the Right

• [07:47] Clip of Carlson challenging Senator Ted Cruz about regime change in Iran, illustrating Carlson’s willingness to grill even high-profile Republicans.
  • Memorable Exchange: “You don’t know the population of the country you seek to topple? ... It’s kind of relevant because you’re calling for the overthrow of the government...” – Tucker Carlson to Ted Cruz
• Discussion about Carlson’s significance as more than a commentator—his independent platform makes him an influential figure who could shape, or even embody, post-Trump conservatism.
  • “His name has been bandied about as a potential presidential candidate in 2028...he’s positioned himself to claim that mantle as the true MAGA...” – Anthony Zurcher ([09:50])

3. Interview with Jason Zengerle – Carlson’s Career and Methods

• [11:10] Zengerle explains why Carlson matters: he’s uniquely effective at importing ultra-fringe ideas into the American mainstream by making them palatable.
  • Key Quote: “He’s very good at taking fringe ideas...and smuggling them into the mainstream...He presents them in such a way that they seem a little bit less extreme.” — Jason Zengerle ([11:17])
• Carlson’s early cable career: presenter on CNN’s Crossfire, embodying mainstream conservatism until The Daily Show’s Jon Stewart directly challenged the show's divisive format.
  • [15:34] Stewart’s on-air confrontation (“Stop hurting America…”), which led to CNN canceling Crossfire and marked a professional setback and source of resentment for Carlson.
    • Quote: “You’re helping the politicians and the corporations, and we’re left out there to mow our lawns...You’re part of their strategies. You’re partisan...you are hurting America.” — Jon Stewart ([16:09])
  • Zengerle suggests this “humiliation” and removal from elite validation may partly explain Carlson’s later anti-elite animus, a theme common among populist figures.
    • “It planted a seed of resentment...and I think that made it a lot easier for him, you know, a decade later, when bashing the political and media elite became a...strategy.” — Jason Zengerle ([16:42])

4. Rise on Fox News and Mastery of New Media

• Carlson’s slow rise at Fox, only breaking through during the rise of Trump as his views (amplified by his experience running the website Daily Caller) aligned with the base’s appetite for nativist, grievance-laden content.
  • [20:16] “Tucker...recognized that Trump was gonna have a lane in the Republican Party. And...was one of the few Fox pundits who wouldn’t bash Trump. So he started getting more airtime...that eventually led to him getting his own show.”
• Carlson’s audience persisted after leaving Fox due to his savvy exploitation of digital platforms, arriving at the right place (X/Twitter) at the right time amid the decline of cable news.
  • “[H]e has a head start over anyone else...in this space. It’s just clear that’s the future of this media space.” — Jason Zengerle ([21:39])

5. Carlson’s Interactions with Extremism and the Post-Trump Right

• Carlson interviewed open white nationalist Nick Fuentes after previously feuding with him, a move Zengerle interprets as an embrace of the online far-right and a strategy to keep hold of ascendant, youth-driven, reactionary audiences.
  • Quote: “He had Fuentes on his show as like an olive branch, as a gesture because he didn’t want to lose Fuentes’s audience...he seems to know where things are going...that’s where the energy is on the right now.” — Jason Zengerle ([24:14])
• [25:45] Carlson still has access to Trump but differs on foreign policy, sometimes even gaining liberal viewers for opposing U.S. interventions.
• Likelihood of presidential run? Zengerle doubts Carlson wants the presidency but sees him as building an enduring ideological project, potentially via surrogates like J.D. Vance.

6. The Future of Conservatism and MAGA

• [28:33] The era of institutional “gatekeepers” is over; Carlson embodies the new reality where media and audience dictate who holds power in conservative politics.
  • Zengerle: “The guardrails are gone...I don’t know if that [mainstream conservative view] is the mainstream… especially among younger conservatives...That’s what everybody’s fighting about. And Tucker has...a distinct idea of what he wants it to be.”
• Hosts discuss the possible legacies of Carlson, Vance, and others, focusing on their shared turn away from elite respectability toward culture war populism.
  • “You can burn brightly and suddenly and if you’re really good, the money is there to back you.” — Justin Webb ([35:58])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Carlson’s role:
  "[Tucker Carlson] has developed quite a movement even after he left Fox News...He has successfully managed to continue to have a platform, a very visible platform for advancing his political views." — Anthony Zurcher ([06:14])
• On the Stewart incident:
  “You’re helping the politicians and the corporations, and we’re left out there to mow our lawns...You’re part of their strategies. You’re partisan...you are hurting America.” — Jon Stewart ([16:09])
• On importing extremism:
  “He’s very good at taking fringe ideas...and smuggling them into the mainstream...” — Jason Zengerle ([11:17])
• On Carlson and the new right:
  “He skates to where the puck is going to be. And I think he thinks that that’s where the energy is on the right now, with the Fuentes people.” — Jason Zengerle ([24:14])
• On gatekeepers and mainstreaming:
  “Once upon a time there were these institutions...and those have fallen by the wayside. The guardrails are gone, which is kind of what has allowed Tucker to become...more and more extreme and yet more and more influential.” — Jason Zengerle ([28:33])
• On Carlson’s strategic media moves:
  “He was an early adopter...helped position him for the transition from traditional media to online media...he does have a good sense of how to take advantage of these new media.” — Anthony Zurcher ([33:51])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:10] — Framing the current state and anxieties of the American right
• [03:37] — Montage of Tucker Carlson’s most controversial soundbites
• [07:47] — Clip: Carlson confronts Ted Cruz on Iran
• [11:10] — Interview with Jason Zengerle begins
• [15:34] — Jon Stewart’s Crossfire takedown and its aftermath
• [21:39] — Discussion of Carlson’s post-Fox trajectory and adaptation to streaming media
• [23:31] — Carlson’s interview with Nick Fuentes
• [25:45] — Carlson’s ongoing relationship with Trump and policy differences
• [27:16] — Prospects of a Carlson political run and ideological influence
• [28:33] — Decline of gatekeepers and the remaking of conservatism
• [33:51] — Conversation about Carlson as a digital media innovator and survivor
• [36:53] — Reflecting on the transformation of mainstream conservatism in the Trump era and beyond

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The Big Picture

The episode argues that Tucker Carlson is not just a media personality, but a flexible, savvy, and consequential actor on the American right—one capable of importing previously unthinkable ideas into the mainstream, riding the changing waves of media technology, and helping define what comes after Trump for the MAGA movement. As traditional power structures and gatekeepers fade, figures like Carlson become both the lightning rods and architects of a new order, with all the disruption and unpredictability that entails.

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Transcript

[Justin Webb]

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[Jason Zengerle]

If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

[Anthony Zurcher]

From the BBC, this is the interface,

[Jason Zengerle]

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[Anthony Zurcher]

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[Jason Zengerle]

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Justin Webb]

I want to put all the issues on the table that keep me up at night.

[Anthony Zurcher]

The interview, the best conversations from across the BBC. We're coming up against technology companies that are richer and more powerful than many nation states. With the people shaping our world, there

[Justin Webb]

are those that believe that the power of law should be replaced by the law of power. The interview from the BBC, BBC World Service.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Listen now. Wherever you get your BBC podcasts,

[Justin Webb]

You'd think the American right would be feeling pretty good. They've got the presidency, they've got the Senate, the Republicans controlling both. They've kind of got the House of Representatives, just about a very small majority. They got the Supreme Court in many respects as well. But they're worried. They're worried about the future and specifically they're worried about where their future support comes from. Is it going to be at all mainstream or is it going to be extreme? We're going to focus today on one particular man, Tucker Carlson, whose story tells a larger one about just how much conservative media has changed the United States and the direction of conservatism itself. Welcome to AmericasT. AmericasT.

[Anthony Zurcher]

AmericasT from BBC News.

[Jon Stewart]

You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me me of money.

[Justin Webb]

Nicholas Maduro yeahed around and he found

[Anthony Zurcher]

out this is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it.

[Jason Zengerle]

This guy has Trump derangement syndrome. I have four words for you. Turn the volume up.

[Justin Webb]

Hello, it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmericasT in London, England.

[Anthony Zurcher]

And it's Anthony in the American head of headquarters of AmericasT in Washington D.C.

[Justin Webb]

and we're going to talk about Tucker Carlson largely today, Anthony, simply because he is such an interesting case study. He's an interesting person in himself, but he's also interesting, isn't he? Because he brings to our mind the kind of broader trajectory of the American right in the last, I don't know, couple of decades, but particularly, I suppose, the last decade or so.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, the evolution of Tucker Carlson from kind of an establishment conservative in the George W. Bush wing of the Republican Party to this populist rabble rouser who moved closer to the right, the populist right, with Donald Trump, but has had his differences with him as well. It is, it really does tell us a lot about where the Republican Party, where the conservative movement is in America over the past two decades.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And we've got a writer who's going to come on and talk to us. I've been talking to him. Jason Zengeli is, his name, is a contributing writer at the New Yorker. He's just written a book about Tucker Carlson. But for people who aren't aware of him or at least don't sort of follow his work with the care that Anthony and I do. Let's get just a bit of a taste of what he's like, what he says.

[Tucker Carlson]

Now, I know that the left and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term replacement, if you suggest the Democratic Party is trying to replace the current electorate, the voters now casting ballots with new people, more obedient voters from the third world, but they become hysterical because that's, that's what's happening. Actually, let's just say it, that's true. We are going to find that people did illegally vote. That's going to happen. That is the official account. Before even counting the votes from a key swing state in the middle of a contested election. The right of every person to express what he believes, that is rooted in Christian faith. We believe people should be able to say what they think because they have souls. They're human beings created by God. They are not slaves, they are not animals, they are not objects. You cannot tell another human being to shut up, even shut up racist, because you don't own him. He is an independent, autonomous person created by God as an individual. Okay? So that's where that belief comes from. That's where free speech comes from.

[Anthony Zurcher]

So that was a montage of Tucker Carlson talking on Fox News on his television program. The first thing he kind of discusses is this idea of a great replacement theory, which is a conspiracy theory, that there's some kind of a shadowy cabal of people who are trying to change the character of the United States by bringing in immigrants from underdeveloped countries and that is undermining so called Western culture. He also touches on voter fraud and allegations that the election was stolen from Donald Trump and that there was going to be all of this evidence found of voter fraud. Of course, there hasn't been any evidence found of that. Just Yet. But it does give a flavor of exactly how controversial and how willing to dabble in conspiracy theories Tucker Carlson has been over his career.

[Justin Webb]

I just wonder the extent to which with Tucker, he actually means the stuff that he says or, or the extent to which it's just part of a shtick. I mean, I got a friend, for instance, Anthony, who, who buys his chewing tobacco, which I think is quite profitable for him. He's got this sort of chewing tobacco sideline and all these things. You know, he's a, he's a huge presence on the right and makes money out of it and he wouldn't hide that at all. He'd be perfectly happy to say he makes a, a fair living. But is, is this all about the living or is it actually, genuinely, is he trying to change America? I suppose is the question.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. And if you look at his background, he grew up in incredible wealth. He is born into the family that made all of its money in Swanson's food, frozen food, and, and he went to prep schools, Ivy League prep schools. He is a child of privilege. And then to be this kind of rabble rousing populace now, it is, it is, as you say, quite a journey. It has led a lot of people to say that this is, it's insincere. And actually we got a little window into Tucker Carlson and what he was saying when he wasn't on camera in those lawsuits that were brought against Fox news after the 2020 election, the defamation lawsuits brought by voting companies. And you could see Tucker Carlson kind of bluntly say he didn't like Donald, had some real criticisms of Donald Trump, seemed to be a little bit more like the, the Tucker Carlson we, we saw earlier in his career. So, you know, that, take that as a data point that, that maybe, maybe some of this is an act. Although, I mean, if it's an act, he's been sticking with it for quite some time now. And he's been very effective, very compelling as a speaker. He's very popular because of what he's saying and, and he is, he's developed quite a movement even after he left Fox News when people thought he would, you know, his audience would wither away. He has successfully managed to continue to have a platform, a very visible platform for advancing his political views.

[Justin Webb]

And he can mix it with politicians and do so in quite a compelling way. There's an interview, in fact, we should hear a bit of it, this interview with Ted Cruz. So Ted Cruz, who may well be a presidential candidate at the end of this administration, Republican Texas Senator who supports regime change in Iran, and this is what Tucker did to him.

[Tucker Carlson]

How many people live in Iran, by the way? I don't know the population at all. No, I don't know the population. You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple? How many people living around 92 million.

[Jason Zengerle]

Okay.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

How could you not know that? I, I don't sit around memorizing population tables. Well, it's kind of relevant because you're calling for the overthrow of the government. Why is it relevant whether it's 90

[Jason Zengerle]

million or 80 million or 100 million?

[Tucker Carlson]

Why? Because if you don't know anything about the country. I didn't say I don't know anything about. Okay. What's the ethnic mix of Iran? They are Persians and predominantly Shia. Okay, you don't know anything about Iran.

[Jason Zengerle]

So.

[Justin Webb]

Okay.

[Anthony Zurcher]

I am not the Tucker Carlson expert on Iran.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're a senator who's calling.

[Justin Webb]

And the point there, anth, is when you look back at the Iraq war, which both of us remember from the American perspective, and I was doing Sarah's job during that time, and you think of the ignorance that there was about the ethnic makeup of Iraq and the way in which they just thought, oh, this will be fine, we'll just blast through and they like freedom like everyone else, et cetera, et cetera. And just before we hear the interview that I've done with this guy who's written a book about him. But when we say he matters in the Republican Party and on the broader American right, that is true, isn't it? Because you could think, well, he's just one man. I mean, he's literally one man, and he's got his own platform now. And I'm going to talk a bit about that with, with Jason Zengeli, how he got to be where he is now. But, but where he is now does matter. There's no doubt about that. Is it?

[Anthony Zurcher]

Definitely. And, and I think, you know, his name has been bandied about as a potential presidential candidate in 2028 because of the, the base that he has developed independent of Donald Trump, the following that he has developed. You know that we've had these conversations before about Marjorie Taylor Greene and, and other members of, of the Trump movement and, and whether the movement, the MAGA movement, after Trump invariably, inevitably exits the scene. Carlson is one of those names that comes up and one of those people who has kind of positioned himself to, to claim that mantle as the, the true maga, the real maga, the, the, the philosophical heir to, to Trumpism and, and so I think he's, he's, he's definitely, I'm glad we're doing a show on this. Definitely someone that is worth understanding and understanding where he comes from because he's youngish, he's not going away. He's going to have a role in the conservative world after Donald Trump. Exit stage left.

[Justin Webb]

So without further ado, let's hear the interview, the interview we've promised that I did earlier with Jason Zengeli. So, Jason, first of all, thanks a lot for coming on and talking to us.

[Jason Zengerle]

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[Justin Webb]

And second of all, why are we talking about Tucker Carlson? Why have you written a book about him? Why does he matter so much?

[Jason Zengerle]

Well, the thing that Tucker, and he did this at Fox, too. He's doing this still. He's very good at taking fringe ideas, ideas that exist on the far, far, far, far, far right, oftentimes on the Internet, taking those ideas and smuggling them into the mainstream and presenting them in such a way he makes them more palatable. They're still extreme, but he presents them in such a way that they seem a little bit less extreme. I mean, the most sort of famous instance of this is the great replacement theory, this idea that elites, oftentimes Jews, are bringing immigrants into the United States to replace white voters and therefore support the Democratic Party. I mean, this is a theory that has been bumping around on the far, far, far right for decades. When Tucker was at Fox, he started putting it on his air and he would do it in such a way that it didn't seem as crazy and as offensive as it clearly is. And I think that now become a mainstream conservative view in a lot of instances. And he has done that a number of times. He's able to take these ideas and oftentimes conspiracy theories and even just news stories and put them in front of mainstream conservative audiences and get them to agree with them. And that is something that other people are not doing.

[Justin Webb]

And he came to prominence, didn't he, on cnn? I mean, I can remember I was based in Washington, D.C. in the early part of the century. And I remember him almost as a slightly rather cuddly figure, entertaining figure on cnn.

[Jason Zengerle]

Yeah, well, he recognized pretty early, earlier than a lot of people, including myself, that print was not going to have the greatest future. And he, one of the through lines throughout his career is I think he very much wants status. He wants fame, he wants power, he wants money. And I think he realized that he wasn't going to be able to achieve that in print journalism. And so he went to cable news and he went to CNN originally, and he was the host, one of the hosts of Crossfire, which was the venerable CNN debate show. You know, there's a host on the left and a host on the right. He was on the right and he did that for a number of years. And, you know, he was, he sort of had this kind of preppy air about him. He always wore a bow and he had a prep school haircut. And he was very much kind of reflecting the conservative mainstream, the Republican establishment. He would hit those talking points on that show, and that's how that show worked. The host on the right needed to be a mouthpiece, basically, for conservatives, for Republicans, and Tucker did that job.

[Justin Webb]

Well, there was a moment, though, wasn't there, when a certain late night host was the guest on Crossfire. Tell us about it.

[Jason Zengerle]

Yeah, there's a whole alternative history if Jon Stewart isn't a guest on Crossfire, I guess. But Jon Stewart, who at the time was the host of the Daily show, which was a very popular satirical news program in the US he was a very big critic of Crossfire and of cable news in general. And this is after the US has gone to war in Iraq. There's a lot of public backlash against the way the media handled that, the way they reported it, the way they talked about how Iraq had WMDs. So Jon Stewart becomes probably the most prominent critique, prominent critic of cable news. And Crossfire wanted him to come on their show and they thought that he would be part of the act. And Tucker Carlson was actually friendly with Stewart. They used to share cigarette breaks outside of a studio, so they knew each other. But when Stewart came on the show, he wasn't pretending, he wasn't playing. He gave his critique of Crossfire, but he did it in such a personal and just kind of harsh way and crossed lines that people didn't usually cross on that show that it really, it really shocked, I think the Crossfire producers, the Crossfire hosts and Tucker tried to debate him and Stewart just eviscerated him.

[Jon Stewart]

I made a special effort to come on the show today because I have privately amongst my friends and also in occasional newspapers and television shows mentioned this show as being bad. And I wanted to, I felt that that wasn't fair and I should come here and tell you that I don't. It's not so much that it's bad as it's hurting America. So I wanted to come here today and say, wait, wait, here's just what I wanted to tell you guys. Yeah, Stop,

[Justin Webb]

stop, stop, stop.

[Jon Stewart]

Stop hurting America and come work for us, because we as the people. How do you pay the people? Not well. Better than cnn, I'm sure, but you can sleep at night. See, the thing is, we need your help right now. You're helping the politicians and the corporations, and we're left out there to mow our lawns. We're too rough on them when they make mistakes. No, no, no, you're not too rough on them. You are part of their strategies. You're partisan. What do you call it?

[Justin Webb]

Hacks?

[Tucker Carlson]

Wait, John, wait. Let me tell you something.

[Jason Zengerle]

I mean, it was just public humiliation. And the humiliation was compounded when a couple months later, the president of CNN canceled Crossfire and said, you know, I'm canceling it because I agree with Jon Stewart's critique of it. I mean, Jon Stewart said, you're hurting America. And the CNN president said he agreed with that. Canceled Crossfire, let Tucker Carlson's contract run out. And it was. It was sort of a personal and professional humiliation. It's funny, you know, he. I mentioned the bow tie. Like, he stopped wearing a bow tie after that, I think, to try to, you know, sort of change his image, but no one. And people still see him with a bow tie. I think, I think it. One thing, it really did, though, was it. It. It planted a seed of resentment, I think, that he felt towards, you know, that club that he was a member of and that he was a part of the sort of the clubby DC political and media elite crowd. I think Tucker felt that they didn't defend him and support him as much as he would have liked. And I think that made it a lot easier for him, you know, a decade later, when bashing the political and media elite became a successful, you know, political and media strategy, made it easier for him to join in on that.

[Justin Webb]

It's a really interesting one that, isn't it? A lot of people who are. Who rail against elites in the United States, and I've heard Jon Stewart actually say this, a lot of them have been been dissed. They feel by those elites that they haven't been. And you could almost say this about Donald Trump as well, actually, they've wanted to be part of an elite, and the elite has rejected them. And their anger knows no bounds because of the rejection. Is that too much of a psychotherapy session or is that, do you think, true?

[Jason Zengerle]

No, no. I think you're onto something. I think the same thing you can say about J.D. vance. There is, like a genuine resentment there towards These people. There are reasons for the resentment. I think in Tucker's case, you know, the Stewart debacle kind of sent his career into a tailspin. And I think he, he struggled for a while after that, and I think that he felt that the TV executives weren't really sort of appreciating his talents.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah, and you say he struggled for a bit and then he goes to Fox and Fox really makes him. Doesn't he becomes a very big noise on Fox.

[Jason Zengerle]

But not immediately.

[Justin Webb]

Not immediately. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Why not immediately? Does he feel that he has to go somewhere to get that audience?

[Jason Zengerle]

Yeah. So he, you know, he goes to Fox and he's like a third tier pundit there. And he's the hosting the weekend morning show which is, you know, not even like, doesn't even really do politics. And it isn't really until Donald Trump comes along that Tucker star starts to ascend. And the reason for that is because at the same time he was, you know, doing the Fox morning show on weekends, he was also editing a website and a conservative website called the Daily Caller. And through that website, I think he gained a real appreciation and understanding of what conservative voters wanted because he saw what articles they clicked on. And so when Donald Trump ran for president for the first time in 2015, most conservative pundits just dismissed him. They didn't think he was a serious candidate. I mean, one, because he was Donald Trump. But two, just the messages he was focusing on, especially a nativist message, anti immigrant, focusing on white grievance. Most Republicans at that time did not think that that was going to be a successful campaign strategy. You know, after Mitt Romney lost to Obama in 2012, Republicans thought they had to moderate on immigration. They had to be more moderate socialist.

[Justin Webb]

It was going to be Jeb Bush.

[Jason Zengerle]

Exactly. The Jeb Bush campaign was. That was the establishment thinking. And Tucker, because of the Daily Caller site, he understood that, you know, what the Republicans establishment thought voters wanted and what voters actually wanted there was, there was a great gap. And he recognized that Trump was gonna have a lane in a Republican Party. And, and Fox had this like basic TV problem. Most of their pundits were dismissing Trump or criticizing him, and they needed to produce segments on Trump where you would actually have, you know, a debate about him. Like a pro and a con.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah.

[Jason Zengerle]

And Tucker was one of the few Fox pundits who wouldn't bash Trump. So he started getting more airtime because he would, you know, just, just, you know, fill out a debate show basically. And that eventually led to him getting his own show.

[Justin Webb]

Now, here's the thing, Jason. In the old days, and I'm talking 10 years ago, you lose your place on television, that's it. You're back to writing or whatever, which you very modestly say you've stayed in and you don't have the power. But basically, if you lose your spot on television, it's a really big deal. What is fascinating, I think, about Tucker Carlson is that, in a sense, his huge salience has come since the Fox gig. And that is extraordinary, isn't it?

[Jason Zengerle]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, he was important. He was important at Fox, too. I mean, it was the highest rated cable show, I think, in history. But he did. He didn't go away. I mean, he went away, I think, in the eyes of a lot of liberal Americans. When he was on Fox, they paid attention to him in part because he was showing up, you know, in their Twitter feed every morning because people would post clips, and it was sort of outrage bait. I think when he got fired from Fox, like in Blue America's mind, he kind of disappeared. But his conservative audience didn't stop paying attention to him. And he. I mean, his timing was very fortuitous in a way. Like, I'm sure he hated it at the time. His firing was fortuitous for him. I'm sure he didn't like it at the time, but the timing was good because, you know, cable news is kind of a dying. A dying industry here. The way print once was and all of the energy now is in this streaming sector. And Tucker was able to enter that at just the right moment. You know, Elon Musk had just purchased Twitter and was turning it into X and was able to boost Tucker's program on that. And conservative viewers were going to that space. They were looking for content there. And Tucker has now, you know, he has a head start over anyone else from the Fox world, certainly, and from the cable news world in this space. And now you have, like, Fox is now, like, buying back these, you know, these podcasts, and they have licensing agreements, you know, with people who left Fox, whether it was Tucker or Megyn Kelly. And it's just. It's just clear that that's the. That's kind of the future of, of this media space.

[Justin Webb]

And with his new platform, he's done all sorts of things. And he actually goes to Moscow, doesn't he? For his own.

[Anthony Zurcher]

For his own.

[Jason Zengerle]

Yes, that, that was. That was independent.

[Justin Webb]

And he goes and he goes further and he interviews. And this, I suppose, is the most notorious of the things that he's done since he left Fox, he interviews Nick Fuentes, this guy who is an admirer of Hitler, and he gives him a very soft interview.

[Tucker Carlson]

Nick Fuentes, thank you for doing this.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Tucker Carlson]

I wanted to meet you. I've heard about you, I've heard about you. So thank you. I want to understand what you believe and I want to give you a chance in a minute to just lay it out, not what you're pivoting against, which are a lot of the same thing. I agree with you on some of the things you're pivoting against for sure. But what do you affirmatively believe? So I just want to stand back and let you explain it. But first I want to understand what

[Justin Webb]

does that tell us now about what Tucker Carlson believes that he is, that the conservatives are, that his audience believes. What do you take from that incident?

[Jason Zengerle]

I think it tells us a lot because I mean, the backstory to that Fuentes interview I think is significant because before Tucker had Fuentes on his show, they were actually in a feud. They were fighting each other. Tucker had criticized Fuentes on his show. He'd called him a fed. You know, he said that he thought Fuentes was sort of like a government controlled provocateur who was out to discredit right wing voices. He called him like a gay little kid who lives in his parents basement. And, and Fuentes on his own show, you know, returned fire and criticized Tucker for being a phony and someone who didn't, wasn't a real populist. And they were going back and forth and Tucker was losing the fight. Fuentes, his fans, they're called groipers. They're these, you know, young kind of disaffected men, conservative men. They were bashing Tucker on social media and you know, and supporting Fuentes. And so he had Fuentes on his show as like an olive branch, as a gesture because he didn't want to lose Fuentes, his audience. And, and Tucker, you know, especially over the past decade, he has a very finely tuned professional and political radar. He, he know, he seems to know where things are going. He, he, he skates to where the puck is going to be. And I think he, he thinks that that's where the energy is on the right now with, with the Fuentes people. And the fact that he thinks that, I mean, that's why he had Fuentes on and that's why that was so significant.

[Justin Webb]

Has he still got the ear of Donald Trump? Because they have semi fallen out, haven't they? Particularly, you think of the Iran action that was taken and also Tucker Carlson's view of Israel. To what extent is there still a relationship or not?

[Jason Zengerle]

There's definitely still a relationship. I mean, just last month he was at the White House on consecutive Fridays having lunch with Trump. I mean, they still talk. I think, you know, he's tight with Trump, he's even tighter with J.D. vance. He clearly does not get his way every time. I mean, the Iran attack is a perfect example. Tucker was, you know, quite vocal in his opposition to that and the run up to it, I think actually, you know, and gained some, some liberal fans during that. People, you know, liberals who didn't want the US to attack Iran. I think they, they like Tucker for what he was saying. He, he is far more of a purist on, on foreign policy, on sort of an America first isolationist foreign policy than Donald Trump himself is. And I think they obviously have disagreements there. At the same time, you know, Tucker, I think, Tucker, it's really important to him in a way that it was not when he was at Fox that he is identified with Trump and that he maintains his, his access to and influence with Trump. So after the Venezuela operation, you know, it was interesting. He criticized that he, he was opposed to there before it happened. Then once it happened, he kind of backed off. He offered even his qualified support for it. So I think he's trying to play that game to make sure that he doesn't fall out of Trump's favor.

[Justin Webb]

Could he run for office, do you think? Is he that serious?

[Jason Zengerle]

I don't think that he has some overwhelming desire to be president. It's not something that he's, he's not Bill Clinton. He hasn't spent his life trying to, trying to achieve that. But I also think that he has an ideological project and he has a vision for America that he wants to see achieved. And right now he has a vehicle in J.D. vance, who is in lockstep agreement with him on so many of these issues. And in a lot of ways sort of takes his sort of political style from Tucker's political style.

[Justin Webb]

What is his position within the conservative movement in the sense that if you're on the, I was going to say the left of the Republican Party, that doesn't really exist anymore. If you're more of a mainstream Republican and you want to bolster Israel's security and you want to stand up to Russia and you want to have low spending and low taxation in the United States. In other words, if you fit the bill of what you would have thought a Republican was a few years ago. Has Tucker Carlson, Does Tucker Carlson now have the power to keep you out for the long term?

[Jason Zengerle]

That's an interesting question because, I mean, one of the things that I think is interesting about Tucker and the reason I wanted to write about him is once upon a time there were these institutions and there were these gatekeepers who could keep people out of the movement, and those have fallen by the wayside. The guardrails are gone, which is kind of what has allowed Tucker to become, you know, more and more extreme and yet more and more influential. At the same time, I do think that they're creating new institutions, maybe a new guardrails. And yeah, I think, I mean, it's not just Tucker keeping you out. It's just where the voters are and where, where the rank and file conservative, you know, just conservatives are in the United States. I mean, I, I, what you said, you sort of described as a mainstream conservative view, you know, support of Israel Hawkish on Russia. I don't know if that's the mainstream conservative view anymore. I don't know what the mainstream is. Yeah, it's not. And especially among younger, younger conservatives. And I think, I think that's what is so interesting. I mean, right now, all of this, all the outrage about Fuentes and all of this, you know, sort of the controversy that caused and the, the backlash it created and the, the fissures that it revealed, so much of that has to do with, it's a debate about what, what American conservatism and what the MAGA movement is going to be after Donald Trump, like, what does that become when Trump exits the stage. And that's what everybody's fighting about. And Tucker has, like, a distinct idea of what he wants it to be. And I think that, you know, if I were betting on what it's going to be, I think, I think Tucker's side will likely win that, that battle. But, but that's, that's what's being, that's sort of what's in play right now. That's, that's why there's so much tumult around it.

[Justin Webb]

Real pleasure to talk to you about it. It's a fascinating thing and it's something we keep going back to, obviously, because it matters so much the way in which the platforms that people have are not the old platforms, are they? And that matters so much. It makes such a difference and you've brought it all to life in your book. Thanks a lot for talking to us.

[Jason Zengerle]

Ah, thank you so much.

[Justin Webb]

There we are. That was my interview. Jason Zengale, he was asked for a response, Anthony, to the book by the online publication the Wrap. And Tucker Carlson said this. I didn't even know he'd finished it. I can't imagine anyone who'd buy it. I'm not that interesting. So let's pick up then really, I suppose on the the end of the interview, the future of the conservative movement that the future of maga, because it's not just Tucker, is it? You were mentioning Marjorie Taylor Greene earlier on and there are a few others as well. The division that always strikes me as really important, and we mentioned this before on the podcast, is the division between those who are serious and, and, and are involved in politics. In other words, to an extent, persuasion and argument and those who really are just sort of selling themselves and making a ton of money. And it just seems to me just to re. Emphasize Tucker Carlson is in the first

[Anthony Zurcher]

of those groups and comparisons we talk about errors to the MAGA movement, comparisons between Tucker Carlson and someone like J.D. vance, who also had this kind of a transformation from someone who is more connected to the elite to the establishment. I mean, obviously he has a different background than tucker Carlson, but J.D. vance went to Yale, he moved in highfalutin circles, he rubbed elbows with Hollywood types. And then when the Trump phenomenon happened, he moved towards that kind of populist. Right. And now he's one of those people who is also trying to lay out kind of an ideological framework, a platform of Trumpism on that can endure after Trump. And it'll be interesting to see the, the kind of dynamic between J.D. vance and, and Tucker Carlson that goes forward. Maybe if Tucker Carlson doesn't run for president, if he doesn't have political ambitions, then there's no real indications that he does, despite his name getting bandied about. But he could be one of the forces behind J.D. vance and I think some of the Republican rivals like Ted Cruz, who we heard there identified as, that He, Ted Cruz has, has seen J.D. vance and, and Tucker Carlson as kind of soul mates. And when, when he positions himself to rival Vance, he also goes after, after Tucker Carlson. So it'll, it's going to be a really interesting dynamic.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. The other thing we ought to talk a little bit about, I feel a bit guilty doing it without Mariana here. A bit naughty really. But we, we got to do it anyway. The, the media have changed. The media has changed as a thing. It just isn't what it was. And there are these algorithms that, as Marianna regularly tells us, are designed to make us peaked, cross with each other and thus more and more affected by and more and more interested in the content we see online. Tucker Carlson has ridden that wave, hasn't he? In an extraordinary way. And I just wonder, without the new media, we wouldn't have Tucker Carlson, would he? He's very much a creature of the things that are happening around him.

[Jason Zengerle]

Yeah.

[Anthony Zurcher]

You know, Tucker Carlson was an early adopter. He founded the Daily Caller, which is a political right wing website that, that helped position him for the, the transition from traditional media to, to online media. Obviously the jump from Fox News to, to X with hosting his podcast, video podcast, whatever you want to call it, on X. That has been very successful. So that, that is, that has really contributed to his staying power is that he, he is very sharp on this and he does have a good sense of, of how to take advantage of these new media. He could have gone the way of Bill O'Reilly who once he, he got booted off of Fox News just kind of has disappeared. But Carlson's a different kind of an animal. He is, he is been able to, to make that transition and, and make news and make headlines that influence the, the conversation, particularly on the right, through social media in a way that few conservatives have been able to.

[Justin Webb]

Yeah. And that actually. And this camp came out in, in the interview that we've just listened to. But he's a bright guy too, isn't he? He's, he's not, he's not stupid and he's, he's really, really able at getting the points that he wants to get across across, but also of kind of seeing the future really when it comes to the media and where he needs to be positioned. And if you are a bright person and you've got a bit of money behind you and everything's going in your favor, it is incredible what you can achieve politically now. It's such a, your system anyway. It's such a different system to our parliamentary system where generally speaking, well, almost always you've got to come up through Parliament and do your time and all the rest of it. There are figures who can just. And in our media you need to find a work for the BBC or another big broadcaster and built a reputation and all the rest of it. In the States you have shooting stars. I don't know whether shooting stars go up or down, but you know what I mean? There is, there you can burn brightly and suddenly and if you're really good, the money is there to back you.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah. I mean it's fascinating the decisions and the way he has positioned himself within the conservative movement, he has, he has taken steps to, to independently establish himself within the conservative movement. And, you know, we could say he's a, he's a bright guy, he has a good political sense. And if that's the case, you know, why is he doing this? And what does that tell us about where the conservative movement's going to go next after Trump?

[Jason Zengerle]

Yeah.

[Justin Webb]

And they're not going back to the bow ties and the country club, are they? I mean, they're really, they're really not, not, not as, as people, as individuals, but also not ideologically. I mean, you think of the things that Tucker Carlson talks about, the things he's brought, as he would say, to people's attention, others would say, the kind of crazy things that he, that he talks about regularly and has mainstreamed in a way that they shouldn't be mainstream. Whatever your view is of that, it's happened, hasn't it? This, this stuff is there.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Yeah.

[Justin Webb]

The idea that it's so, it's just sort of, you just say, oh, well, that was a, that was a silly old thing. We don't think those things anymore. I just can't see how that happens.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Right. Mitt Romney is not walking in the door and becoming the Republican Party presidential nominee anymore. I think that that is, that is safe to say. And when you talk to people within Trump's orbit and people who work in the administration or who cover the administration, they will say this is a fundamental change and that what Trump has done has changed the Republican Party, but it also has changed the political debate in this country and changed the Democratic Party. He has moved the nation on issues like trade and immigration in a way that it's not going back. As you say, okie dokie.

[Justin Webb]

That's it, Anthony, been a pleasure as ever. Bye bye.

[Anthony Zurcher]

My pleasure. Bye, y'. All.

[Justin Webb]

Thank you for listening to another episode. It is you, the ameracaster, that makes ameracast the community that it now is. If you like what you've heard, please do subscribe. Subscribe to this podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We always want to hear your feedback as well. We look at every single bit of correspondence that we get. So you can send us an email americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. The link to that is in the description. Till next time.

[Anthony Zurcher]

Bye. Bye.

[Jason Zengerle]

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[Anthony Zurcher]

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[Jason Zengerle]

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[Anthony Zurcher]

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[Jason Zengerle]

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