Justin (2:07)

cup even I know that, and other big tournaments and they should qualify.

Mariana (2:09)

Well, they, they're expected to qualify and they're always very disappointed when they don't. They didn't qualify this time again. And Paolo Zamboni told the FT quote, I am an Italian native and it would be a dream to see the atzuri at a U.S. that's the Italian team at a U.S. hosted tournament with four titles. They have the pedigree to justify inclusion. Now, pedigree on the whole is not quite how, how qualification for the World cup works is Anthony.

Anthony (2:33)

Yeah, I mean, that's saying the quiet part out loud, isn't it? I mean, there's always been allegations of, of there being political maneuvering behind the scenes and favoritism and, and the politics being injected into it. Well, here he's coming right out and saying, well, in order to make things better between the United States and Italy, why don't we just have Italy come and replace Iran, a nation that the United States obviously has very tense relations with.

Mariana (2:58)

And there's already, like, quite a lot of skepticism and criticism and other things being leveled, not least at Infantino, who's in charge of FIFA, because you might remember he famously awarded Donald Trump, or FIFA famously awarded Donald Trump that peace prize, which is going really well, greatest prize ever. And I think anything that could be perceived as not being fair won't necessarily go down very well, not least for Iran.

Justin (3:24)

Well, do they still want to come?

Mariana (3:26)

Well, they said Iran confirmed on Wednesday the team was, quote, fully, fully prepared to play in the World Cup. And Trump had questioned whether it was appropriate for Iran to play, talking about their life and safety, and essentially said On Truth Social, look, the soccer team are welcome to the World cup, but I don't believe it's appropriate for them to be there. That was last month on on True Social. And all of Iran's games at the moment are due to happen on the west coast because FIFA have rejected a request to relocate its games from the US To Mexico, which maybe could have been a kind of temporary solution.

Justin (3:58)

And presumably, Anthony, if Iran do come, I mean, there are a lot of Iranian Americans who live particularly in Los Angeles, aren't they? We've discussed before the fact that there are sort of enclaves. I mean, they're not millions and millions and millions, but there are significant numbers of people who would like to see the national team, even though they almost, to a man and a woman probably don't support the national regime.

Anthony (4:22)

Sure. I think that that's clearly something that a lot of Iranians could rally around. And preventing them from coming here opens a can of worms that I don't know if they really understand what the consequences are. I was talking to Andrew Giuliani, who is the chair of the FIFA Task Force, the White House FIFA Task Force, just last month about this very thing about Iran coming to the United States. And he said that the Iranian team would be safe, that there's no concern about security. He said that the team was welcome to come, that essentially what Trump had said in that Truth social post a couple of months ago had been walked back and that the invitation was out there for them. But now it seems like that walk back is being walked back a bit. If it's true that behind the scenes the administration is looking for ways of

Mariana (5:13)

replacing Iran, and Iran's not the only thing that is flaring up around The World cup. Is it because a lot has changed since 2018, when the US was deciding like which cities were going to host and why. You've got Mikey Sherrill, who replaced a Phil Murphy as the governor in New Jersey and then New York have obviously elected Zoran Mamdani. And both of those people have been quite worried about the cost of.

Justin (5:37)

Although at least Mandani, at least Mandani

Mariana (5:39)

is, he does like football. He's an Arsenal fan.

Justin (5:41)

The thing is, Mikey Shell doesn't and doesn't pretend to, does she, Anthony? And that's the, that's could be a potential difficulty given the importance of New Jersey, which we ought to explain in all of this and particularly because it's

Mariana (5:52)

where the final is going to be.

Anthony (5:53)

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. New Jersey, northern New Jersey, just across the river from Manhattan, from New York City, the big football stadium there where the New York Giants and the New York jets play. It is the central location, the center stage essentially for the World Cup. So a lot of people are going to be traveling, staying in New York City and taking these trains to northern New Jersey. I mean, there's not a lot of hotels in northern New Jersey compared to Manhattan and New York City. So, yeah, it's not as big a tourist draw. I guess, as you know, people want to come and see the oil refineries or have some Italian food in Newark. But, but otherwise, yeah, Manhattan's a big draw and it's, it's close enough that that is the place where people are going to be staying. So when we say New Jersey, we're really talking about New York City. But because it is New Jersey, it's the governor of New Jersey that has control over this. And the trains, their commuter trains that a lot of people who live in New Jersey take to get in to New York City, those are the ones where it's going to cost over $100 for a round trip ticket compared to, I believe, $12, which is the normal prices. And it's, it seems like a way for the governor of New Jersey to flex her muscles a little bit to show that she's standing up to a World cup, which maybe at the time when, when all the cities were bidding on this and trying to become host, location seemed like a prize. But at this point, because Donald Trump is so closely associated with it now, you remember the World cup draw was at the Trump Kennedy center here in Washington, D.C. that it's a chance for Democrats to stand up to Trump and to push back a little bit and to be seen as Pushing back. So there's politics, as you say in that as well.

Justin (7:41)

Well, let's hear Mikey Sherrill standing up to Trump, but also Azoran Mandani as well, putting his six pence worth in.

Carter Sherman (7:48)

Our administration inherited an agreement where FIFA is providing zero dollars for transportation to the World Cup. Zero. That leaves New Jersey Transit with a 48 million dollar bill to safely get 40,000 fans to and from every game. At the same time, FIFA is making $11 billion off of this World cup and charging fans up to 10, $10,000 for a single ticket for the final. I won't stick New Jersey's commuters with that tab for years to come. That's not fair.

ICE Representative (8:22)

I can tell you as a soccer fan myself, I have seen many a time when municipalities are unprepared for the level of excitement, enthusiasm and frankly, even the visits that come out of a tournament like this. We want to make sure that we are anything but that.

Justin (8:36)

Okay. There is another and potentially, I suppose, more serious objection to everything that is going on and this comes particularly from the Democrats, doesn't it? Is this business of what is going to happen with ice, the Immigration Enforcement Agency, are they going to be there when there are matches and what's their role going to be? And this will really matter, won't it?

Mariana (8:57)

Yeah. And there's this, there's this new bill, isn't there? Save the World cup bill, basically saying we don't want ICE doing any raids within a mile of football game. And you can see why people are so concerned about it because given recent incidents involving ice, it seems like an obvious flash point that could unfold. Particularly, I guess, when you've got a whole mixture of people coming from all over the world into the US And a lot of Americans who are also really engaged with the football. Massive, massive crowds. I don't know, Anthony, do you think that it is a recipe for trouble?

Anthony (9:32)

I think there's definitely the potential for that. As you point out, it's not just, it's not just an event for people who are coming from all over the world to attend these events. Although the pricing of the ticket certainly makes it out of reach for a lot of Americans. But it also is a chance for the local diaspora communities for all of these different nations to cheer their team on, on the soil in the nation where they now live. So Iran is a good example of that, I believe. Haiti is also playing. And Haiti and Asian immigrants have been a real big flashpoint for controversy. They were the focus in the 2024 presidential campaign about Haitian communities in places like Ohio and allegations that they were disrupting the civic community and causing additional crime and strain on resources. So you could see how ice, if they're looking for people who aren't here with proper documentation, might decide to target watch parties for the various teams in different locations. And that would generate a considerable amount of anger. And that's why Democrats have been trying to point to this and saying, this is not an opportunity, not a good chance for ICE to continue its immigration efforts. This should be a chance to celebrate the diversity of the American people.

Justin (10:53)

The thing is, to which a lot of Americans would say, well, yeah, you can celebrate diversity, but if someone's here illegally and this is a good way of catching them, then why not go ahead and do it? Because it is what Donald Trump promised to do when he came to power. I mean, he didn't promise to do it around soccer matches particularly, but he promised to do it full stop, and that's why he was elected. So you have this sort of situation now, don't you, where, as Marianna mentioned, we've got this bill, this Save the World cup bill, and this congresswoman actually had an exchange, didn't she, with the ICE director, with Todd Lyons. It was back in February. So the issue then is Willie, or won't he commit to a congressional committee that his agency would pause operations during the World Cup? This is what he had to say, ma'.

Daniel Miller (11:37)

Am.

ICE Representative (11:37)

Ice, specifically Homeland Security Investigations, is a key part of the overall security apparatus for the World Cup. We're dedicated to securing that operation, and we're dedicated to the security of all our participants, as well as visitors.

Anthony (11:50)

You realize that if they feel that they're going to be wrongfully incarcerated or wrongfully pulled out, that's going to hurt this entire process. I hope you realize that.

ICE Representative (12:03)

Yes, ma'.

Justin (12:03)

Am.

ICE Representative (12:03)

And ICE is dedicated to ensuring that everyone that visits the facilities will have a safe and secure event.

Anthony (12:09)

There's another battle going on back in my home state of Texas between the governor, Greg Abbott, and the city of Houston, a city that is dominated by Democrats at this point. And Abbott threatened to withhold $114 million in public safety funding that would help provide security for the World cup games in that city. If those city officials didn't repeal an ordinance that would have prevented the cooperation from city law enforcement, city agencies, with federal immigration officials. So this is coming up again and again. This is clearly a point of contention that has been around for quite some time. But the World cup and the spotlight that it is putting on, a spotlight that is being put on these big cities that are often won by Democrats that have objections to immigration enforcement. This is kind of upping the stakes and creating very real potential for conflict.

Justin (13:04)

Is there a midterm election impact potentially? We've had a question from Gordon in Derbyshire here, Anthony, saying how might the World cup affect the midterms? A good global sporting event can create a positive, feel, good vibe, which is certainly true, isn't it? But if Trump uses his power to punish certain cities, will it backfire, fire on him? I don't. It's a bit early to say, isn't it, what the impact either of a successful World cup or say, for instance, that it isn't successful, that there are empty seats and a lot of angst or.

Carter Sherman (13:31)

Yeah.

Mariana (13:32)

Conflict between Democrats.

Justin (13:34)

Yeah. What does that. Does that affect the midterm?

Anthony (13:38)

Yeah, I think there is potential for this to have political consequences. The thing to remember, though, is that this is June and July. The midterm elections are in November. That is a long time in the political world for things to, to change or for people's attention to shift. If it's a disaster, then maybe that would have legs. But if it's a fun time and everyone has a good time, the US maybe makes it to the knockout round and wins a match or two, I think people will be happy. But it's not going to change the dynamics if the price of gas is still high, if the economy is still scuffling. So I think actually every. Every four years when we have a presidential election, there's also an Olympics, Summer Olympics, and that always seems to lead to a little bit of a surge, maybe for the incumbent party because everyone's rah, rah, go usa. But traditionally that sort of thing fades away pretty quickly. Okay, well, now let's talk to someone who actually knows what's going on in the World cup here. His name is Daniel Miller. He's a reporter at Politico who lives in Los Angeles where some of the World cup games are going to be held. And he covers sports and how that interacts with politics. Daniel, really great to have you on.

Daniel Miller (14:49)

Thanks so much for having me.

Anthony (14:51)

All right, so you live in Los Angeles, right? That. That's going to be the host of, of some World cup games. Are you going to any?

Daniel Miller (14:58)

Yeah, LA is going to be hosting eight World cup matches, and I actually have tickets to two of the matches here in Los Angeles. I am going to see the Iranian team play twice. We'll have to see if those matches actually happen.

Anthony (15:12)

Yeah, we just were Talking about that earlier, about whether, in fact, Iran is going to show up. I mean, what's your feeling right now? Does it feel like there's a sense of excitement having Iran there in Los Angeles among the community? Are they planning events, or is it now just kind of holding their breath because of how. How tense the situation has gotten?

Daniel Miller (15:31)

Yes. You know, watch parties are being organized all across the city, and I think the tea will be celebrated by the local Iranian community. At the same time, I think Iranians here are holding their breath. You know, this war has just created so much drama and tension in people's lives who have family back in Iran. And for people who also are just, you know, feeling a sense of heartbreak for their home country as it's torn apart.

Anthony (16:00)

Did you pick these tickets? Obviously, you probably got them before the war started. Did you pick it because of the politics of this, given that you write about it, or was there any other reason?

Daniel Miller (16:10)

No. I will be totally candid. I bought these tickets because I could afford to buy these tickets. Right. A lot has been said about how expensive this World cup will be. I listened to one podcast yesterday that dubbed it the Ripoff World Cup. And when I looked at ticket prices to see the U.S. team play in Los Angeles, and some of them were north of $3,000 per ticket, you know, that just wasn't going to work for me. And I picked up these tickets to the two Iran matches for less than $200 a ticket. And I think, you know, there are deals out there if you're willing to comb through the FIFA website, which is another story on its own. And so that's why I wound up with these matches. And, you know, I think it'll be fascinating to be at Sofi Stadium for them.

Anthony (16:59)

Right. Because these aren't scalped tickets. These aren't ones you're buying in some secondary market. I mean, FIFA is setting the price of these, and they're setting them astronomically high in some cases. I mean, looking at a chart here for World cup final prices and the 2022 World cup final in Qatar, 1,604, I guess, for. It was a face for the most expensive in the. In the latest April sale for the 2026 World Cup Final, $10,990. I mean, that's. That's eye watering.

Daniel Miller (17:29)

Yeah. Some of these prices are just astronomical. I think that was a Rubicon that was crossed when we saw those final tickets go for north of $10,000. And this is something in reporting about the World cup in recent weeks that I heard over and over that people were insulted by some of these ticket prices and then also concerned. At the same time, I think there's a real sense in some of the cities that are hosting the World cup in the United States that fan demand may not be there if it's going to be this expensive.

Anthony (18:03)

Let's talk a little bit about the politics of this because this is a sporting event and there's a profit issue as well. But there's also a big political issue domestically and not just involving Iran, but involving ICE and immigration enforcement. There's a dispute in the city of Houston about withholding funds if they don't cooperate with immigration enforcement officials. Are we, have we gotten any kind of clarity on whether there is going to be ICE showing up at some of these game watches, showing up at the stadiums and trying to find people who they might want to detain who aren't here legally?

Daniel Miller (18:43)

Well, the federal government has said that ICE will have a role in the security for the World cup and the government has not really specified what that will look like. But that's enough to upset many across the country, not just in Houston, but here in Los Angeles as well. Just one example, there is a labor union that involves workers at Sofi stadium. It's about 2,000 people and they have demanded that ice not be involved in the World cup, at least here in la. And so it just goes to show you this is an event that has been totally politicized, not just due to international geopolitics, but like you said, to domestic politics. And I think it's a real stress test for the Trump administration. Donald Trump received a special brand new peace prize from FIFA last year and he has talked about how this will be the best World cup of all time. But with less than two months out in some cities, there's a bit of chaos, right?

Anthony (19:48)

I mean, he's got a lot riding on that. The peace prize he received at the so called Trump Kennedy center here in Washington, that's where the World cup draw was. He really has closely associated himself with this World Cup. Why does he care about this? Does he see an opportunity for himself? Is there a political benefit that he could reap if this all goes off?

Daniel Miller (20:09)

Well, I don't think I'm breaking any news here, but President Trump is someone who loves pageantry, who loves pomp and circumstance. And that gold plated trophy I think is illustrative of that. He talked about how big of an honor it was to receive it. And of course, just a few months later, Trump initiates a war With Iran. I think that he sees this as an opportunity to flex the US's soft power at a moment when all eyes are on the country due to the war in Iran and the domestic strife we've been talking about. I think if there are significant issues with this tournament, if you see television cameras panning over empty seats at some of these marquee matches, it could be a black eye for the Trump administration, that's for sure.

Anthony (21:04)

I remember going to the World cup here in Washington, D.C. in 1994. We actually had some matches here. Now the closest ones we have, I think, is in Philadelphia. But I went to the Spain Switzerland knockout game, which was so much fun. And there were a lot of Americans, I think, who got caught up in all of it and really became fans of the sport in a way that they hadn't before. Do you think the potential is there for this now, or do you think that because this has become so expensive, so politicized, that that is not going to have that kind of invigorating effect for the American population?

Daniel Miller (21:42)

I think it's fair to say. Look, there are these downside risks that we've been talking about, but I will also say, you know, 30 plus years after the last World cup here, this is a huge opportunity to continue to grow the soccer fan base in the United States. I remember going to the World cup in 1994 with my dad here in Los Angeles at the Rose Bowl. I think we went to a couple matches. I think we went to the third place match, which I'm not sure FIFA actually has any longer, but I remember just an electric atmosphere, a packed Rose bowl, you know, seats 90,000 plus fans. And that really launched soccer in many ways in the us. It seeded a whole new generation of fans here who became obsessed with the game, whether they're doing youth sports or, you know, getting turned on to English Premier League soccer. Fandom really was turbocharged back then. I think that that can happen again. Already it is starting from a position of strength. I mean, the MLS has grown leaps and bounds in recent years and people really are diehard fans of this US national team. So there is an opportunity, especially if the US team can make it out of group stage and give it a good run.

Anthony (22:57)

One of the other recent controversies, it seems like there are a whole bunch of them now on the World cup is this battle over train prices coming in from New York City to the stadium in New Jersey where the World cup final is going to be played. What is this, this debate about? Is it really about $100 for a train ticket or is there something more to it?

Daniel Miller (23:20)

Right, so these are sky high prices for train tickets. The round trip ticket In New York, New Jersey is going to be $150 per person. Just an eye watering sum. In Boston, you're also seeing train tickets that will cost $80. And I think it's fair to say fans are outraged over this. But I think that these high prices point to a much bigger issue, which is the vast expense that comes along with hosting the World Cup. Politico, where I work, has reported that it will cost each host city between 100 million and $200 million to host the games. And if ticket sales are weak, if hotel bookings are weak, a lot of these jurisdictions are looking around and saying, hey, how are we going to pay for this thing? Because we do not want to get stuck with the bill. And those high prices have caused legislators to demand answers. But at least as of now, though, there is this impasse. I think those ticket prices are holding firm. And that's unfortunate for some fans.

Anthony (24:21)

Yeah, it's a lot for a short train ride. It almost feels like this is on the verge or has the potential to really just become a fiasco. A fiasco for these cities if the, the foreign tourists don't show up. Just kind of a black eye for the United States. Is there, is there a risk of that or do you think we're overplaying it at this point?

Daniel Miller (24:42)

No, I think that's a very real risk that this could become a fiasco for some of these host cities. And look, not all the host cities are the same. Different economics, different geographies. You have a host city like Kansas City and then you have a host city like Los Angeles. Very different whether it comes to the hotel base, the size, the other tourism options, the transportation options. So I am sure that for many of these cities, hosting the World cup will be a real boon. But for others, there is a chance that there will be a big bill that will come due. And there, you know, isn't that tourism bump that people had hoped for to pay for it?

Anthony (25:16)

You know, last World cup was in Qatar. Won a few World Cups before was in, in Russia. But is this now the most politicized World cup in history? I mean, have we, have we set some sort of a bar for how much politics injects in this? Or is it just because we're here in America and we're all paying attention to it? We're only really noticing it now certainly

Daniel Miller (25:39)

in those other World Cups that you just mentioned. You know, there were many political issues and messy ones to sort through, but I think that what makes this situation unique is that the games are set to start in less than two months. The some of those issues with those other tournaments, you know, they bubbled to the surface, you know, years before in some cases those tournaments. Right now you have games rapidly approaching and it feels pretty unresolved, at least in certain cities. And I think what adds a total wild card is the war with Iran. It's just not clear what's going to be happening come June in the Middle east, and I think that is leading to chaos in some corners.

Anthony (26:23)

It makes for an interesting story to tell, and I will definitely be following your reporting as we get closer and closer and see how all this works out. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me, Daniel.

Daniel Miller (26:33)

Oh, I'm happy to do it. Thanks for having me.

Anthony (26:41)

Thanks for listening to another episode now. If you liked what you heard, why not subscribe to AmericaSt on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. That way you'll be notified every time we publish a new episode. We also want to hear your thoughts, feedback, questions, anecdotes, ideas and keep them coming. We look at every single bit of correspondence that we get. So you can email americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 443-3-9480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT Discord server. That link is in the description of this podcast. You can also watch us on YouTube just search for Ameracast. So until next time. Bye y'. All.

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