Sarah (2:15)

Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's bureau in Washington.

Justin (2:18)

And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarter of AmericasT in London, England.

Mariana (2:21)

And it is Mariana sitting next to Justin in the worldwide headquarters in London.

Sarah (2:25)

We have so much to talk about in this episode, don't we, Justin? Mariana, because I, I think that this vote in Congress to force the release of the Epstein files is going to be one of the most momentous things that has happened in this first year of President Trump being back in office. It's huge news. People are fascinated, gripped by what's in the Epstein files. It's a moment of Jeopardy for President Trump, who hasn't wanted to release them, and for many of the other people who may well be mentioned in them. But it's also the first time his congressional Republicans have stood up against him and they've won. So I think on many different levels, this is a really important story for us to dig into.

Justin (3:03)

Yeah, it's an interesting point that, isn't it? When you say stood up against him and won, he changed his mind, didn't he? At the last minute, sort of said, go ahead and vote. But let's, let's be absolutely clear, he did not want this vote to take place. They delayed it, didn't they, Sarah? Quite considerably. They didn't want to hold it at first. They tried to find ways, procedural ways, of not holding it. And in the end, only one member of the House of Representatives guy called Clay Higgins. Do we know much about Clay Higgins, Sarah? We assume it was some sort of point of principle. Was it that led him to be the only vote in the whole House of Representatives against it?

Sarah (3:39)

Yes. He says he is worried about the release of information in these files that could harm victims or underage people, that he thinks that there's stuff in there that shouldn't be made public because it would be harmful to the people involved. But let me walk you through how 427 other members of the House of Representatives, all bar Clay Higgins, ended up voting for this measure. So it's been wrangling on for months through Congress. You had two congressmen, one Republican, one Democrat, had put together this petition that if they got enough representatives to sign, it would force a vote on the floor of the House. The speaker couldn't stop it. So they had been gathering signatures for months. They had four Republicans on there, and then they just needed one more name. And then after by election, another Democratic congresswoman was eventually sworn in. After the government shutdown came to an end. She added her name to the petition and that was it. There was going to be a vote on the floor of the House. Now, Donald Trump really put a lot of pressure on those four Republicans to get them to remove their names from the petition. He even had one of them, Nancy Mace, not just into the White House, into the Situation room to try and persuade her to remove her name from the petition. He couldn't do that. And this was barreling towards a vote which it was pretty clear he was going to lose. We were looking at dozens, possibly 100 Republican representatives defying Donald Trump and voting to release the Epstein files. And they were doing that because their Constituents will be furious with them if they voted to keep this stuff covered up, given the promises so many of Republicans have made during election campaigns saying they want the Epstein files out there. Then on Sunday, at the last minute, facing this rebellion, Donald Trump put on social media that he was in fact encouraging House Republicans to vote in favor of the release of the Epstein files. So they had permission to do so. And as we say, all Democrats, all Republicans, bar that one, Clay Higgins voted in favor of releasing the Epstein files. And then the Senate actually agreed unanimously to pass this as well. So that means it's on its way to the President's desk, this bill that actually compels the Justice Department to release all the information. And Donald Trump did say on Monday, if it gets to his desk, he'll sign it. He hasn't yet, but that's what we're waiting for.

Mariana (5:59)

Yeah. And some of the most vocal people, understandably calling for the vote and then also for the files to be released have been the survivors and their families, particularly the family of Virginia Giuffre, who accused Jeffrey Epstein of sexual abuse and took her own life earlier this year. And Scarlett Guy Roberts, her brother, told NBC News yesterday that it was time finally for accountability.

Scarlett Guy Roberts (6:20)

It is going to go on President Trump's desk. I mean, we are, we are very hopeful for that, but there's a lot of fight left, because the first step in the healing journey, or just in this journey of justice, is acknowledgement first and then it's accountability. Once we do get the files released and we do uncover the names of some of the most rich and powerful politicians and financiers and world leaders, I mean, it's time to, to hold them to account, whether that's social justice or whether that's, that's true justice, which is, which is our legal system.

Sarah (6:49)

Now, that's an important point that Sky Roberts made there, which I think is worth stressing. People don't want these files released simply for the salacious content in them or because it might be politically embarrassing to some high profile people. They believe that some of Epstein's friends and associates who participated in the abuse of these young women are named in the files and that there might be enough evidence in there to prosecute them. And that's the reason that they're campaigning so hard for this. They want to see other abusers brought to justice. And they think the root to that is releasing these files and see what, seeing what information is in there.

Justin (7:22)

Yeah. And of course, as part of that, that's why prosecutors and lawyers for the abused women want former Prince Andrew to be part of this process, not because they necessarily think that he did anything wrong himself and he's always denied it, but because he might be a witness, because he might have been there at various stages, have seen var things. And it's been long been a demand of theirs, hasn't it, that he takes part now in a process that allows him to say on oath what he saw. And it won't stop with him, will it? That's the whole point, sir. Exactly. That. That there are all sorts of other people who may now be called to testify because it will become obvious and publicly obvious that they were involved, if not in any wrongdoing, then they actually were there at a time when wrongdoing might. Might have happened. And that's important.

Sarah (8:11)

That's right. The congressional committee looking into this really want former Prince Andrew to come and speak to them and tell them who he saw, what he saw, and some of the details around the parties and social life of Jeffrey Epstein. But they can't compel him to come and give evidence. But if there are American citizens named in these files who it would appear might have valuable evidence, they could subpoena them and compel them to come before Congress.

Mariana (8:37)

I know U turns don't sort of exist in Donald Trump world, but the big question, what has gone on?

Justin (8:44)

Why? Well, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, Sarah, whether or not it's a U turn, it's absolutely unquestionably something he has been forced to do that he didn't seem to want to do. And that in Donald Trump world is unusual, isn't it? I mean, it really genuinely is. And forced to do it by Congress as well. And we spent goodness knows how many months saying, where's Congress? What are they up to? Why aren't they doing X, Y or Z? Why aren't they? Why don't they have a bigger role in the tariffs or a bigger role in this or that? Well, suddenly, here we are. They do have a big role, don't they? Because this essentially has been foisted on him.

Sarah (9:17)

Yeah, absolutely. And by the four Republicans who signed on to that petition. And so that's Thomas Massie, who, along with Ro Khanna, who's a Democrat congressman, authored this bill. And then three, probably of the most prominent MAGA women, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace were the other three who signed on. And it did provoke the ire of Donald Trump. He has been lashing out against them. He's even been calling Marjorie Taylor Greene, a traitor. And she says that that's led to death threats against her and that she's worried about violent attacks. I mean, it's a real nasty spat right at the heart of maga. And it matters because we thought that these were three of the most loyal of Donald Trump's representatives, but also they represent the MAGA constituency. And this is an issue which is actually, you know, it's driven right to the heart of Donald Trump's supporters because a lot of them, as faithfully as they follow him and everything else, really want these files published. And so it's led to a split in Congress, but also a split in his support as well. And I think it could go on to be really quite important and meaningful.

Mariana (10:25)

I think that's especially interesting that, you know, the way that a lot of the pressure has come from within the MAGA movement. And we chatted on another episode of AmericasT, all about the role that these influences have played, particularly on sites like X actually, which might be small, but still has a kind of mighty impact in terms of political discourse and the ability of some of these influencers who have really, really gone hard at Donald Trump about the Epstein files, really wanted them released. You know, a lot of them post quite frequently about their concerns around abuse of power and specifically abuse of power when it comes to, you know, sexual abuse and sexual abuse of. Of minors. And so I think actually another thing as well, asides from the Congress point, which is an important point, is that this show, this kind of small but mighty, very loud bunch of influencers on social media, have also managed to basically direct the discourse. And Donald Trump is slightly having to, you know, that's part of why this has become such a big deal as well, not just the kind of political.

Justin (11:21)

Mechanisms they've got under his skin. And it's not clear why is it. I mean, given that he says he didn't like Epstein, he fell out with him, et cetera, et cetera, and there's no evidence, again, that Donald Trump has done anything wrong. But given all of those things are out there, he is weirdly affected by all of this. Weirdly and publicly and openly had this strange interaction, didn't he, with a Bloomberg reporter, a woman called Catherine Lucy on Air Force One, when she tried to ask him about all of the files and his own reaction to them and why they hadn't already been released. Let's listen to that.

Donald Trump (11:59)

Jeffrey Epson and I had a very bad relationship for many years, but he also saw a strike because I was president. So he Dictated a couple of memos to himself.

Sarah (12:08)

Give me a break.

Donald Trump (12:10)

You're going to find out. What did he know with respect to Bill Clinton, with respect to the head of Harvard, with respect to all of those people that he knew, including J.P. morgan Chase? Yeah, Jennifer, go ahead.

Sarah (12:27)

Yeah, so if you didn't quite catch that there, that was the reporter, Catherine Lucy, trying to ask, if there's nothing incriminating in the files, why not just release them? And he interrupted her to say, quiet, quiet, quiet, piggy. Which is pretty disgusting remark to make towards anyone, particularly a female reporter on Air Force One with him there. But it also shows you how deeply this has got under his skin. He hates being asked about the Epstein files. He doesn't like talking about them full stop. But he also thinks it's distracting from the wider agenda that instead of talking about what he says are his great successes in office, he's being constantly berated with questions about the Epstein files. And it happened again in the Oval Office on Tuesday when he was welcoming the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He was asked by Mary Bruce of ABC about the Epstein files. And that turned into a really nasty exchange. Mr. President, why wait for Congress to release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now?

Donald Trump (13:21)

Well, it's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way you ask these questions. You start off with a man who's highly respected asking him a horrible, insubordinate and just a terrible question. And you could even ask that same exact question nicely. You're all psyched up. Somebody psychs you over at abc, they're going to psych it. You're a terrible person and a terrible reporter.

Mariana (13:53)

Just to kind of address that why it bothers him so much question. And as ever, we can't get inside his head and know exactly why. Although, like you say, Sarah, you know, the, the distraction point, I think probably makes sense. What I would say from looking certainly at the kind of social media world that Donald Trump has so effectively harnessed over many years, including during his first presidency, is that themes around the corrupt elites and powerful people doing bad things, abusing their power, and particularly around sort of the issue of pedophiles and sexual abuse. Those have been such powerful topics within those circles, and Donald Trump has actually succeeded in pointing his finger at many enemies by kind of sending them in that direction and saying, look, look, look, these people are really bad people who do bad things. And so I think that this is sort of where those kinds of conspiracy theories which make up a kind of section of the MAGA support, kind of bite back. But then also, I guess the other thing people are talking about is, well, is there, is it because he's worried about something that's going to be going to be released in the files? And that's obviously been the kind of question on everyone's lips, you know, very specifically, is there something really embarrassing?

Justin (14:55)

And I suppose on that, Sarah, what, what is, what does he do about all of this when it comes to actually, in practical terms, letting people have access to information? We've had a question, good question, I think, from someone called Derek who's got in touch with us to say, could Trump avoid embarrassing disclosures by simply classifying such embarrassing material? How would anyone know? Surely in the context of Trump pushing the legality to the limits, lawmakers are alive to this, are steps being taken even to prevent it?

Sarah (15:25)

Sarah, we know that Donald Trump thinks that he can classify material simply by thinking about it, because that was a famous statement that he gave when he was being asked about all of those classified documents he'd taken from the White House and that the FBI found stored at Mar a Lago whilst he was out of office. But that aside, frankly, I don't know, but I mean, I think it'd be very difficult to say that something that was just embarrassing about Republican politicians or rich donor friends of his made it into classified information. Now, what they might be able to do is refuse to release some information if it might jeopardize an ongoing investigation. And just a few days ago, to try and distract from some of this, Donald Trump specifically ordered the Justice Department to investigate some well known Democrats and their links to Epstein. So former President Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary and President of Harvard who served in Democrat administrations, and Reid Hoffman, a very, very wealthy Democrat donor. And so the Justice Department is looking at them. They could plausibly say as part of ongoing investigations, there is some stuff that we cannot release. But I think it's going to be quite difficult to hold back too much just given the political pressure that has now, well, defeated Donald Trump basically on this issue. Marianne, I'm sure you're aware though, there's a new conspiracy theory going around that 1,000 FBI agents have been combing through the documents already to remove any mention of Donald Trump.

Mariana (16:53)

Trump, as ever, the conspiracy theories are out and about. So some of it is genuine conspiracy speculation, all that kind of stuff. Some of it is satire. So some of it is people kind of joking about, you know, posting on X With, with just like entire documents that just black lines. No doubt when these files are released, conspiracy land especially will go quite bonkers, but also actually quite validly, there probably will be some things that have been unfounded theories that we didn't know the truth about that we might actually finally get answers to. And it's where we sit in that murky of what actually is conspiracy theory.

Justin (17:27)

And it's worth saying as well, Sarah, I mean, there's a load of material here which for perfectly proper reasons can't be brought out. So, number one, some of the victims don't want their names to be known, and obviously that will be kept to number two, there is CCTV footage and you can imagine it would be quite easy for some of that to be lost. Indeed, another conspiracy theory is that when Epstein killed himself in prison, it is interesting that the tapes, at one stage his cell was taped, that the tapes are missing for a crucial minute or two, et cetera, et cetera. And that led to a whole load of conspiracy theories. And there are people, including Epstein's brother, actually, who think he may have been murdered in jail. So the fullness of the CCTV records from Epstein's properties will also be questioned, won't it? And there is other material as well, potentially video material, et cetera, including potentially talk of child abuse videos. And none of that is going to see the light of day, and nor obviously should it. But I suppose the point I'm making, Sarah, is that this is not going to be one great announcement of everything. There is going to be stuff that isn't in it. And I guess that will lead to a further wave of calls for it to be released and further wave of suggestions that actually everything that should have come out won't have come out.

Sarah (18:51)

Oh, almost certainly. And we heard from Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, earlier in the year, when she announced that they weren't going to release the Epstein files after all. And she said that basically all that was left in there that hadn't been made yet public was, was, yes, the names of victims, and that there was nothing in there that could plausibly lead to anybody else being prosecuted. So it'd be fascinating to see if that's the case. But I mean, of course, the first thing, everything anyone is going to do is comb through it looking for mentions of Donald Trump, who did socialize with Jeffrey Epstein, that's well known, who has been mentioned in some of the emails and other documents that have been released, but never with any real suggestion of wrongdoing. And this is what is so bewildering about this is if Donald Trump never did participate in any wrongdoing in Jeffrey Epstein's company or circle, why is he so keen to keep these files lockdown? Because he said during the election campaign that he would publish them. For the first couple of months of the administration, they seemed prepared to do that. Then suddenly, around about Easter, there was this U turn from the Justice Department. So there's all sorts of speculation from whether it could be mentions of him, mentions of his friends or wealthy donors. He frequently makes the point, though, that actually Epstein hung out with former Democrats, donated to former Democratic politicians, that. That they've got more to lose. Well, if that's the case, why isn't he publishing them? He also says, look, the Biden administration had these for four years when there wasn't such pressure to publish them. He said, if there was anything incriminating about me in there, don't you think they would have used it already, not least during the election campaign? Not a bad point. But again, if he's so sure he's not incriminated, why on earth has he been so opposed to publishing him? That's what I mean. No wonder it fuels conspiracy theories when nobody can work out what his motives are there.

Justin (20:39)

We ought to talk a bit about what is actually in them when it comes to what the material is that we almost certainly know will be released and why that material is so important. And part of it, as you say, Sarah, is about Donald Trump, but part of it is much wider than Donald Trump, isn't it? So we got a question from Rebecca, which I think we ought to try to approach. So what Rebecca asks is, I get that the Epstein files are some kind of political Pandora's box of torrid goings on, but what exactly are they? Who compiled them and when? And who is the keeper of the aforesaid? And I think the first thing to say, Sarah, about that is, you've got to go back to 2008, haven't you? That year is really important in all of this because it was in 2008 that Epstein actually goes to jail. He pleads guilty to one offense. It's the solicitation for prostitution of a minor, a girl who was 14 years old.

Sarah (21:31)

World.

Justin (21:31)

It's a state offense and he goes to jail for it, but a very open jail. He's actually allowed to leave every day in a car and go and work in his office and then go back to the prison. There is a ton of other material around at the time, isn't there? So There's a federal case being built against him because there are lots of other girls, and they're not young women. They are girls. They are underage. The age of consent In Florida is 18, and a lot of these girls were under that age. And yet he doesn't get prosecuted except for that one offense. And that prosecution in 2008 is when everyone. It is fair to say, isn't it, Sarah could have known, should have known what kind of a man Epstein was. And that is why all the material relating to that case, the federal investigation that never went anywhere, and then eventually, when there was an investigation that went anywhere and he was arrested again in 2019, all of the material surrounding that as well. So this will be all the emails, all the contexts of his life will be in these files, and that's why it's so important.

Sarah (22:47)

Yeah. Essentially, it's the product of a lengthy FBI investigation into, well, two different criminal investigations, as you say, in 2016, 2008, and eventually in 2019. And in the normal course of events, we might have seen quite a lot of the evidence that had been gathered against him during the course of a trial. Of course, he died in prison before this case ever came to trial. So this information has been locked away by the FBI. It's kept by the Justice Department now. So ultimately, in charge of that is Donald Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi. She says that she has reviewed all of the files, so she technically knows what's in there. And it is a huge trove of documents. It's interviews with victims, with witnesses. It's items that were taken from Jeffrey Epstein's properties that were seized in the course of these criminal investigations, all kinds of evidence that was building the case against them were it to have gone to court, but hasn't. So it's sitting in, I don't know, boxes, filing cabinets, or on hard drives somewhere, and that's what people are very eager to get a look at. Now. It's. Some of it's been released earlier this year, but, well, people assume it's the less interesting bits that have been made public already, and that's why they want to see what's at the heart of these files. So basically, the product of this criminal investigation, locked away in the Justice Department entirely separately from that. We've got a committee of the House of Representatives trying to find out all they can, and they have been subpoenaing Jeffrey Epstein, his estate, to get material from them. So they obviously have his computers and, you know, control of his accounts and things like that. So when you see large tranches of emails being made public, as they were last week, for instance, that's not stuff leaking out of the so called Epstein files in the Justice Department, that's the Oversight Committee getting hold of his communications via the Epstein estate and then putting them into the public domain.

Justin (24:43)

So exactly as you say, Sarah, there is, there is material out there already. And I suppose this is what has piqued people's interest so much in recent days, actually in weeks, is that there is material now that has come from those committees. And as you say, the material itself originates in the Epstein estate. It is not part of the criminal cases, but nonetheless, it contains names and tantalizing names, including an email apparently about Donald Trump from Jeffrey Epstein in which he says, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump, a victim. The name of the victim is redacted. Spent hours at my house with him. It seems to be an email that suggests that Donald Trump, Sarah, was in the room with someone for a period of time. Again, no suggestion he did anything wrong. But nonetheless, this is material that does link him with Epstein.

Sarah (25:40)

And in fact, the White House has named that victim as being Virginia Giuffre. In the recently published Posthouse memoir from her, she does say that she never saw Donald Trump doing anything wrong and that he behaved very well anytime she associated with him. So the White House point to that and say, look, if this is the most incriminating thing you can find about him spending hours with a woman who has subsequently said he never did anything wrong, then there's nothing to see here. But of course, as we said earlier, that then raises the question once again, if there's nothing to see here, why don't you show us the files? But yeah, every time emails like this come out and they are pored over for details and particularly to see who's mentioned. So there were a couple of other mentions in that latest tranche of emails about the former Prince Andrew, for instance. And other men's names have come up. Larry Summers, who we were saying is a former treasury secretary under Bill Clinton, former Harvard president. He's in a lot of trouble this week because it was clear that he was relying on Jeffrey Epstein for romantic advice about how to pursue a woman whom he described as his mentee whilst he was married to somebody else. And he's had to step back from basically all public facing rules. As a result of this, the New York Times is ending its contract with them. And yeah, I mean, Larry Summers has essentially been canceled for being named in these emails. And it does have consequences like that for other people.

Justin (27:02)

There's, there's one side of it which is the political side, which Trump himself, as we've already heard, says Bill Clinton's involved. And there's no doubt that Bill Clinton was friendly with Epstein for a period. And Larry Summers as well, is a figure on the left of American politics. And there are others as well. Noam Chomsky, figure on the far left of American politics, trenchant critic of American foreign policy for decades and decades, hugely important academic as well, back in the day. He's a very elderly guy now. Now he's also involved at one stage with Epstein and has been friends with him. And there are lots of other people as well, some socialites in New York, including women who've been involved with Epstein. So it goes right across American politics. But what fascinates me is it's not just a political dogfight. It also reinforces, doesn't it, in the minds of many Americans, including Americans who frankly don't think much about politics, that there is what they would see as a two tier justice system that actually if you are rich and well connected, you can pretty much avoid anything unpleasant happening to you in most circumstances. And that's really what this says to Americans. And I think in that respect, it has this sort of undermining sense in American social, cultural, life. It proves to people, and this is why it's regarded as so important by so many of them, it proves to people. Back in 2008, Epstein essentially gets off. All sorts of federal investigations were being conducted. They had the testimony. They didn't in the end bring the federal case against him. And it took actually the Miami Herald, didn't it, the newspaper to get him really prosecuted back in 2019. And he had all these friends in that intervening period, all these rich, well connected friends who knew perfectly well that he was a convicted sex offender, but still were willing to be friendly with him. And I think, never mind the politics, it seems to me that that is the kind of crucial thing here when it comes to what these files, when they are released, says to America.

Mariana (29:23)

And isn't the problem for Donald Trump here.

Sarah (29:25)

Right.

Mariana (29:25)

Okay, looks like the files will be released. And you know, it might be that this story, I mean, certain snowballs for other people, it might be that it calms down for him or it snowballs more, who knows? But is the problem not that when it comes to certainly the very committed and loud vocal people on social media, for some of them, this is like the damage is really done I, they don't, they, they really don't agree with Donald Trump on this. And they feel like he, for far too long, was very against, you know, very against releasing the files. And actually, is this kind of, you know, do some factions of MAGA just split forever for. Do they actually start saying, oh, actually, we don't Donald Trump very much, we're gonna, you know, follow whoever Elon Musk tells us? Or is it what usually happens, which is that these people are still undyingly loyal to Donald Trump and they prefer him to the other options, even though they're critical over him on this?

Sarah (30:15)

I think the latter, yeah. Because you know what Donald Trump's like. He is perfectly capable of turning this around. Once these files are released, presuming that they are making it seem like it was his idea all along. He could even point to statements he made on the campaign trail saying that he thought the files should be released. He will just suddenly decide that the last seven or eight months of him refusing to put this stuff in the public domain never happened. He's always been in favor of releasing the files. There you go. Particularly if it produces a lot of information about Democrats and he sees his political opponents and there will be such a frenzy of people combing through them looking for names, questioning whether or not there will now be investigations and prosecutions to follow. All sorts of new conspiracies, no doubt, coming out about why these people's names were being kept secret. I think, think. I think people will be able to move on pretty fast as they die, as they digest the contents of the files, rather than worrying about how they finally got hold of them.

Justin (31:11)

Right, we're going to leave it there for now. We will be back soon.

Mariana (31:14)

Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.

Sarah (31:18)

AmericaSt.

BBC News Announcer (31:19)

AmericaSt from BBC News.

Justin (31:22)

Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an AmericasT. It is, of course, a rich, a wild ride navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is americastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-239480. We answer your questions every single week, actually on the podcast, so keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.

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