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Americast
Will Trump invade Cuba?
00:39:46
The US charges Cuba’s 94 year old former president Raul Castro with murder
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- [00:00]
Podcast Narrator
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. Ever wonder why we make the choices we do and how to make smarter ones? Introducing Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join Wharton Professor Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we do the things we do and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. Each episode covers the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings and why starting over can feel so hard. Listen to Choiceologywab.com podcast or wherever you listen.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
does Donald Trump have a plan for Cuba and if he does, what might it be? We've already seen a big escalation this week because the US has charged Raul Castro, a 94 year old former leader, with four counts of murder in a case that dates all the way back to 1996. Add to that Trump's economic blockade of the island, which is causing a really dire humanitarian situation in Cuba. Does this all add up to the United States trying to force a change of government in Havana? Well, we will go through all the various political maneuverings and get a sense of what's actually going on behind the headlines and try and work out if Donald Trump is close to a Cuban takeover. Welcome to americast.
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Donald Trump
You hear that? Oh, I think when I hear that sound it's reminds me of money.
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
This is a big cover up and
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this administration is engaged in it.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
This guy has Trump derangement syndrome.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
I have four words for you.
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Donald Trump
Turn the volume up.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington bureau.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
And it's Anthony right next to Sarah here in Washington D.C. and we're gonna
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
be joined a little bit later in the podcast by Carlos Curbelo, who you're gonna be talking to Anthony, aren't you? Former Republican con Congressman from Florida who is the son of Cuban exiles.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah. He's going to be able to shed some light on how the Cuban exile community in South Florida views the latest developments in Cuba. And he has some connections on the island as well. So it'll be interesting. Look into what's going on in the politics of the Cuban community.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah. And let's dive first into what's been happening here with US Cuban relations. It was a very big day yesterday when the U.S. justice Department announced that it was charging Raul Castro, 94 years old, former leader of Cuba, with four counts of murder. And the charges relate to two planes that were shot down in 1996, humanitarian flights that were flying from the U.S. to Cuba. And this was a very big moment. It came on Cuban Independence Day. It was announced with great fanfare in Miami, where most of the American Cuban community lives. And it was a pretty big symbol, wasn't it, of where the Trump administration stands on Cuba.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Right. If you remember Nicolas Maduro, he had criminal charges facing him, and they used that as justification to go into Caracas, Venezuela and detain him and bring him back to the United States. So a lot of people view this indictment as perhaps setting the stage for some sort of similar military action. Now, you have to remember Raul Castro, he was not the head of Cuba back then. His brother Fidel was, but he was the head of the Cuban armed services. And now, after the death of Fidel, has been elevated to be the supreme leader of Cuba, although he is, as we've mentioned, 94 years old. So he is getting on in years. There's a question about how much he actually is involved in the day to day operations of the state.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Well, the Trump administration went out of its way, I think, to draw attention to this instead of just having a normal announcement in the Justice Department. They were down in Miami at Freedom Tower, which was the kind of Ellis island for Cubans, wasn't it, Anthony? Coming in to America looking for political asylum. And that's where the acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche, went to make the announcement. This is what he had to say.
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Todd Blanche (Acting Attorney General)
My message today is clear. The United States and President Trump does not and will not forget its citizens. For the first time in nearly 70 years, senior leadership of the Cuban regime has been charged in this country, in the United States of America for acts of violence resulting in the deaths of American citizens. Nations and their leaders cannot be permitted to target Americans, kill them and not face accountability. President Trump is committed to restoring a very simple but important principle. If you kill Americans, we will pursue you. No matter who you are, no matter what title you hold. And in this case, no matter how much time has passed.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
And then Todd Blanche was asked on NBC News whether Raul Castro will ever actually stand trial in the United States.
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Todd Blanche (Acting Attorney General)
That's the goal. I mean, there's an arrest warrant, and we indict people. As I said earlier today, we indict people outside the United States all the time. And there's a lot of ways that we can get them. And I certainly hope that any defendant that's indicted in this country stands trial for what they've been charged with doing.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
So an arrest warrant set out for him. As we mentioned, Nicolas Maduro had one, and they actually did arrest him, and he's in New York right now awaiting trial. Do we think that Raul Castro might actually be arrested, that the United States might go in and grab him like they did Maduro?
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Well, that's the message they want to send, clearly, is, you know, we could. We did this in Venezuela and we could do this if we want to in Cuba. I don't think there's any sign that they're ready for it now, not least because a lot of the special Forces who would be required to do that are in the Gulf. They're not in the right part of the world at the moment. Although if they were rehearsing for it and staging it exactly as they did before the Maduro raid, we wouldn't necessarily know about it. That came as a complete surprise, what happened in Venezuela at the beginning of the year. But I think that Venezuelan playbook is very much what Donald Trump wants us and wants the Cuban administration to be thinking about.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah, there was a huge military buildup around Venezuela, and we were remarking on it at the latter part of the last year. There hasn't been a similar sort of buildup around Cuba. But then again, Cuba is at its closest point only 90 miles from Florida. So it doesn't take that much for the United States to be able to project its military there. Now, Cuba has been subject to this embargo. The Venezuelan oil, after that raid to capture Maduro, it has been cut off. The shipments that were subsidizing, essentially, Cuban economy, the oil shipments from Venezuela, and have ended. So it has created a massive humanitarian crisis in that country. And there may be the hopes among the Americans that the pressure, the financial pressure, the economic hardship, the humanitarian hardship that Cuba is going through will force Cuba to make concessions short of having to send the United States military in.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah, because the oil embargo means that, for instance, they're Only getting a couple of hours of electricity a day. And that has huge economic consequences as well as being extremely difficult for the people who. Who live there. This idea that by strangling a country's economy, you can persuade the population to overthrow an authoritarian regime, I think optimistic. To say the best.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah. I think what we're finding in Iran is that the regime doesn't care that much about the suffering of its people. I mean, it's an authoritarian dictatorial regime that has been perfectly willing to kill its own citizens when they express dissent or attempt to demonstrate against the government. And Cuba certainly could be a similar sort of situation. But the United States has made clear what it wants. John Ratcliffe, who is the head of the CIA, said that there needs to be fundamental change in the Cuban government. So essentially, the United States is saying, you've got to get rid of Raul Castro. You have to get rid of the whole regime. You have to start democratizing, start opening the country up to American economic investment and trade. And in exchange, all of this, the blockade that is preventing Cuba from trading with other countries, the economic sanctions, all of it would go away. We have offered, in fact, $100 billion in economic aid in the lifting of the oil blockade if Cuba relents and starts moving towards a more open, free market type of economy, which may well
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
be what a lot of the citizenry want. But we're faced with the same issue that Donald Trump has with Iran here. It's one thing to economically punish a country and say, we want you to change in some way, and maybe that would be enough pressure to do it. Fundamental change or the kind of regime change that Donald Trump initially said he wanted in Iran. Asking a government to put itself out of power, basically for people to. Yeah, to say, you can no longer have any role in governing this. Why would anybody negotiate on that basis? They're asking for too much, fundamentally.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Right. And same with Iran, an existential threat to a regime. You put a regime's back up against the wall and say, you have to leave, they will do almost anything to hold on to power. But that's exactly what Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, has been asking. The American government has asked. And here's Rubio talking to Fox News on Air Force One when they were en route to China last week about what he wants from Cuba.
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Marco Rubio
There is no economy in Cuba. The. To the extent there's any wealth in Cuba, it doesn't go. It doesn't forget about, doesn't go to the people. It doesn't even go to the Government, the wealth is controlled by a private, by a company owned by military generals. They take all the money, they're sitting on billions of dollars. Okay? This is a country where people are literally now eating garbage from the streets, but they have a company that controls all of the money making there that's sitting on 15, 16 billion dollars. So it's a broken, non functional economy and it's impossible to change it. I wish it were different, but I believe it's my personal opinion you cannot change the economic trajectory of Cuba as long as the people who are in charge of it now are in charge of it. That's what's going to have to change because these people are proven incapable. I hope I'm wrong. We'll give them a chance, but I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think we're going to be able to change the trajectory of Cuba as long as these people are in charge in that regime.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
And we should talk about Marco Rubio here because I think he is instrumental in driving U.S. foreign policy with regards to Cuba. He is the child of Cuban immigrants. He represented Florida in the United States Senate, obviously representing a lot of the Cuban expatriate community in South Florida. He is very aware of this issue. He's cared about this issue for a long time. I think one of his ultimate goals would be to see what in his view would be the, the liberation of Cuba. I think that if he could accomplish that, I think he would be able to feel like his life had had some sort of crowning achievement. And so you can hear it in what he's saying here. You could also hear it in the message he delivered to the people of Cuba in Spanish, which he speaks fluently. Just earlier this week,
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
What he was saying was, I know that today you who call the island home are going through unimaginable hardships.
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Today.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
I want to share with you the truth about the reason for your suffering. And I want to tell you that we in the United States offer to help you not only alleviate the current crisis, but also to build a better future. Now this is really interesting to try and pick apart, isn't it? So we had Marco Rubio there talking about unimaginable hardships in Cuba at the moment. And in the previous clip, he was talking about people literally now eating garbage people. He has a great affinity with people, you know, who his parents came from there. Yet the reason for all of this hardship is what's being imposed by the United States now. I mean, admittedly, obviously the Communist Cuban government wasn't sitting on top of a thriving economy that people were enjoying freedoms with. But it's so bad now because of what the US Is doing, not because of the mismanagement of the Cubans.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Right. And Cuba, you know, it's one of the last standing communist regimes. Obviously, it was a focus of the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crisis. People can go back and look at their history books about how close the United States and the Soviet Union came to nuclear war over putting nuclear missiles in Cuba. So it has been something that has dogged American presidents since the days of Dwight D. Eisenhower, essentially. And you have seen other countries that were communist regimes, like Vietnam, for instance. I mean, China have been able to incorporate their economies into the globe, have been able to keep their regimes essentially in power, despite the fact that they were once adversaries of the United States. Cuba has been different. And part of that, I think, is because of its proximity to the United States. The United States doesn't like this regime. They have a grudge against it, and they want to see it just totally overthrown. And the United States, prior to Castro and the Cuban Revolution, had very close economic ties with the military dictatorship that was running Cuba. So there's a lot of history there, Sarah, that has to be taken into account here. But I guess the question is, all right, now we put on this blockade. We are tightening the screws in ways that maybe we haven't even before we've indicted the leader of their government. What happens next? What's Donald Trump's end game here?
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Because if it is to put so much pressure on the population, the that they will overthrow the regime, you are going to have people like Marco Rubio and a lot of Cuban Americans who are pretty fundamental to Donald Trump's electoral support as well, having to watch things get worse and worse and worse for the Cuban population in the hope that if they are punished hard enough, they will eventually revolt. And it's a pretty crude way of going about things, but it's a pretty cruel way of doing it, too.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah. So the question is, do they ultimately relent, which I think is what the United States hopes. Does it come to the point where, as we saw in Venezuela, as we saw in Iran, Donald Trump decides to use the US Military to invade Cuba, or at least to try to capture Raul Castro and topple the regime? And if so, how does that play out? We've heard reports that Cuba is buying and constructing over 100 drones to defend their island. So there is clearly the thought on their side that there might be some sort of military action. But also those reports the United States government has been advancing, that could be a justification. Oh, they're arming. We need to go in and disarm them. So this could also be something that escalates the situation to the point where a military action is almost unavoidable. It doesn't seem sustainable at this point, I don't think.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
I mean, there's a few things the US Particularly wants from Cuba, short of the total overthrow of the ruling elite, and that would be getting rid of some surveillance posts that China and Russia maintain there that are a real bugbear of America because they can listen in to America. They can hear what the Southern Command of the United States military are saying, possibly even what central commander up to. So they're very worried about that. There's a couple of other things. I mean, they've talked for a long time about wanting to open up the economy. Like, as you say, China and Vietnam integrated more into the world economy. Business opportunities there would be for American businesses there. It's not clear to me at the moment whether if the Cuban government were to make concessions like that and, you know, push China and Russia a little further away, whether that would be enough for the Trump administration.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
All right, well, let's hear from Donald Trump himself. He was asked over the past week about what he saw with Cuba and whether escalation was possible. President, what's coming next for Cumas?
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Donald Trump
Well, we're going to see it's a failing nation. You see that it's falling apart. They have no oil, they have no. It's a failing nation. So I just can't tell you that. But we're there to help. We're there to help the families, the people. And again, a lot of those people are related to me in the sense that I have had such a great relationship with Cuban Americans. They supported me at a 94% level. That's a pretty good level. And they're, you know, their. Their relatives are there on the table here.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Mr. President, should we expect any escalation here or should they expect anything?
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Donald Trump
Yeah, no, no, you won't. There won't be escalation. I don't think there needs to be. Look, the place is falling apart. It's a mess. And they sort of lost control. They've really lost control of Cuba.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
That seemed kind of definitive, didn't it?
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yes, although, I mean, overlaid with the idea that there won't be escalation because there doesn't need to be, because the government in Cuba has lost control. And it's not clear that that's the case. I mean, they are economically hobbled, but it's not at all clear to me that the government is therefore losing control, and it's going to be easy for the population to topple them or whatever it is imagine Donald Trump hopes and imagines is going to happen without him having to intervene militarily.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Right. And the Cuban government, for their part, has said there would be a bloodbath if the United States got involved militarily in Cuba. We tried once with the Bay of Pigs also during Kennedy's administration, and again, this is how far back this goes. And that was a bloodbath on the invading side. The United States, the CIA, had supported Cuban expats who came in trying to start their own revolution, and it all was just a disaster. I don't think that it would be a similar sort of operation this time around. I think we might see American military forces more decidedly committed. But still, there's no guarantee that it would work out the way the United States wants. We saw in Venezuela things going absolutely perfectly, although there were indications that things could have gone sideways. American helicopter was almost shot down, but in the end, it all worked out great. We have seen in Iran a military success, but the political ends have been more far from achieved. So there's. There is very real risk in whatever the United States try to do if they decide to opt for a military solution.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
And Donald Trump was pointing out there how much electoral support he gets from Cuban Americans here in the United States. A lot of them are in Florida, which is pretty solidly Trump country. How important are they electorally for him? Would Donald Trump need to, you know, think, rethink things if Cuban American exiles here started squealing that it was, you know, it was too painful, what was happening on the island?
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah, they are the key to Florida. And when Florida was on a knife's edge politically back in the early 2000s, I think that there would have been a very real sensitivity to how they felt about US Cuba policy. Now, there are a lot of Venezuelans in Florida who are very happy with Donald Trump and the way that he has handled Nicolas Maduro and the regime there. So I think that the Cuban vote in Florida isn't quite as essential to Republicans and isn't quite as as much of an issue that will be dwelling in Donald Trump's head, although he brought it up. So clearly he does think about it. But if Florida weren't so solidly in the Republican column, then I think it would be A much bigger concern.
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah. And another electoral consideration, of course, that might be on Donald Trump's mind is depending on what happens with the war on Iran and increased public opposition to that, the idea of getting embroiled in or even firmly threatening any other kind of armed conflict might not be the wisest electoral move in a midterm year.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
All right, Sarah, now we've set the stage. Let's talk to someone who knows a great deal about Cuba and the Cuban American community in Florida. It's Carlos Covelo, who is a former congressman from Florida and the child of Cuban immigrants. And he could shed some light on what's going on in Cuba right now, what's going on among the Cuban American community in Florida.
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Hello. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
All right, so we've talked about everything the United States has done recently with regard to Cuba. It feels like things are really starting to move. What's your take? What's Donald Trump's goal here?
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Well, it's very clear that the goal is either regime change or just some meaningful structural change in the government of Cuba. You know, it's been 67 years that Cuba has been ruled by a communist dictatorship, a government that's been not a friend of the United States and has collaborated with American enemies throughout the decades going back to the Cuban Missile crisis. So this has been a long time coming. And, of course, there was a big indictment yesterday of Raul Castro, which will serve as an instrument to further pressure the Cuban regime and this effort by the administration to force change on that island nation.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Now, you mentioned Raul Castro being indicted, and when I saw that come down, I instantly thought of Nicolas Maduro and what the United States did with him going into Caracas and capturing him and bringing him back to the United States. Is that something you would like to see with Raul Castro? Do you think he should stand trial? Why now? Raul Castro is 94 years old. What changed that made Trump decide? I mean, he'd been president for a full term prior to this, and he's been president for a year and a half almost now. Why now?
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
I suppose an equally fair question is why not, right? There's no statute of limitations on murder in the United States. And these were four. Three American citizens and one legal resident who. Who were murdered over international waters. I would say that in addition to that, the fact that there is no statute of limitations, obviously there's this effort by the Trump administration to force changes in Cuba, and clearly this is part of that effort. And as you said, this indictment reminded you of the seizure of Nicolas Maduro earlier this year. I think that's exactly the message that the Trump administration wants to send to the Cuban dictatorship. Let them know that they're serious about provoking some meaningful change in Cuba and that the United States has the means and the will importantly to seize Raul Castro if they decide that that is the best course of action.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Now, how is the Cuban American community in Florida, in the United States, responding to this? Obviously, they see progress being made and pressure being applied, but it's also creating a real humanitarian situation in Cuba where they have family and relatives. Is there some concern or are they celebrating what the administration has been doing?
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Well, there is definitely concern for what the Cuban people are going through. And without a question, this American pressure campaign has certainly aggravated the situation in Cuba. But let's be very clear. The Cuban people have been suffering through these blackouts on the island for many years. Of course there's concern for the Cuban people. Many in the Cuban American community have family members on the island. But there's also a great deal of hope, because what people really want here is a meaningful change in Cuba. What people really want here is for Cuba to be a prosperous nation, a nation where people have basic human rights, where they can dissent from the government, where there can be a free press, freedom of assembly, full freedom of religion. That's what people want for their relatives more than anything else. So there's a lot of hope here. There's enthusiasm at the fact that this administration is committed to a free and prosperous Cuba more than any other administration. And by the way, George W. Bush was a very popular president in the Cuban American community. He was elected in 2000, barely right, with almost 80% of the Cuban American vote. Yet his government was not willing to go as far as the Trump administration has demonstrated. And a good example of that is this indictment of Raul Castro. At the beginning of the Bush administration, just some four years after this shoot down of the brothers to the rescue planes, there was a campaign here in the Cuban American community to encourage the administration to indict Raul Castro. It never happened. Now it has happened.
- [25:32]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
So the Trump administration has upped its rhetoric. Has it really done more than any other administration? We've seen positions and maneuvering. But is it going to result in any kind of substantive change?
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Well, of course, ultimately this campaign will be judged by its results. There is a lot of faith and trust in Secretary Marco Rubio, as you can imagine from Cuban Americans. He's a local hero. And it was the Cuban American community that gave him his only victory in the state of Florida in the 2016 presidential race when he ran against Donald Trump, Miami Dade county was carried by Marco Rub. It was the only county in the state that was carried by him. So you can imagine how confident people feel in his understanding of this issue and in his commitment to getting something meaningful done.
- [26:27]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
All the reports that are coming out of Cuba are things that are very hard there. And you mentioned that. How would you respond to people who say, well, if Donald Trump really cares about the people of Cuba, why is he hurting them so much? And why does the solution that he seems to have right now be to create pain for the Cuban people to the point where it's no longer tolerable? And isn't there some other way to be able to. To resolve this diplomatically short of causing such hardship for people who didn't do anything wrong? They just happened to live on the island under the Fidel or the Castro government?
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
There have been arguments against the United States sanctions policy against Cuba since President Kennedy first signed the economic embargo into, not into law because it was an executive order, but into policy back in 1961. And look, those questions are fair and we can have intellectual conversations about them, but we also have to take into account that this administration has offered the Cuban regime $100 million in humanitarian assistance with the condition that the regime not be the one that distribute this aid, because the regime is known to take these products for themselves and then to sell them for a profit. So the administration here in the United States has offered the Catholic Church as an institution that could distribute this aid. So I think there is a recognition here that the Cuban people are suffering through this crisis. And there's clearly a financial commitment to alleviate the suffering of the Cuban people. Really, this is a dictatorship that has put the Cuban people last at every step. And for that dictatorship to either change substantially or to leave power would be by far the best outcome for the Cuban people.
- [28:32]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
All right, Carlos, my phone is exploding here right now with breaking news. Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, says that Cuba has in fact accepted that hundred million dollar offer that the United States made. But he wasn't certain that the conditions that Cuba was putting on it were acceptable to the United States. So it feels like maybe there's some progress here, that at least there are negotiations. But what do you think the sticking points from an American standpoint might be?
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Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Well, that's certainly good news. And I can imagine that the point of controversy here is how the aid gets distributed. The Cuban regime might be insisting that they control these resources. And I don't see a scenario under which the United States government is going to turn over $100 million to the Cuban regime, especially given their history of trying to use all of these products to stuff the coffers of the generals and of the people who helped the regime stay in power. So I'm certain that Secretary Rubio and that the administration will insist that an entity like the Catholic Church, or perhaps even the small entrepreneurs that do exist in Cuba, should be the ones that would be allowed to distribute this aid.
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Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Thinking back to 2015 and the negotiations between the Obama administration and the Cuban regime, it felt like there was a diplomatic progress being made to open Cuba up and that Cuba could end up like Vietnam or China or one of these other communist countries that was able to be more incorporated into the international community without some sort of regime change, and that that would have avoided all of this suffering that the Cuban people have undergone in the ensuing years. I mean, what went wrong with that? Why wasn't that a solution? Why couldn't they have done this without so much pain for the Cuban people?
- [30:33]
Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Well, there were two big problems with that whole effort. Number one is that the Obama administration did require that the Cuban regime make any structural changes. And I specifically asked Ben Rose, I was in Congress at the time, what are we getting in exchange? What are our demands? And he said, we don't have any demands. We just want to change the policy. So that was a big missed opportunity. The other problem with all of that is the nature of the Cashel regime. They did not open up the way that the Obama administration anticipated that they would. For example, they did not allow American companies to go to the island and establish Internet access. They always wanted to control the Internet in an absolute fashion because they knew it could risk their grip on power if Cubans had uninterrupted access to the Internet. So that really did serve, at the very least, to reveal the nature of this regime. They had an opportunity to make a big economic opening to really help the Cuban people, to allow the Cuban people to unleash their entrepreneurial spirit, to allow American companies to do business on the island and to contribute to a more prosperous Cuba. And they refused to take that opportunity, despite the fact that the Obama administration gave them a series of unilateral concessions without any conditions whatsoever. So that approach didn't work. And it's never going to work with this regime, because every opportunity they have to make a profit, to use resources, to export revolution, as was always Fidel Castro's vision that is how they allocate their resources to the repressive machine, to the people in every neighborhood that watch Cuban citizens and report them if they are involved in any counter revolutionary activities. That's what the Cuban regime uses its resources for.
- [32:48]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
There are lots of regimes that are oppressive. There are lots of regimes that crack down on freedom of the press. The United States still deals with them. They don't use the kind of tools that the Trump administration has been using on Cuba to try to exact change. Why is Cuba different? Is it because of the proximity to the United States? Is it because there are people like you or the descendants of Cuban refugees who have a strong connection to the island? Why not just let Cuba be Cuba and not get muddled down in all of this?
- [33:19]
Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
I think it's all of that. Having an enemy state 90 miles from your shores is something that no country in the world would appreciate. Obviously, the Cuban American community in the United States does have a great deal of influence. And if the community weren't here, yes, perhaps decades ago, people would have said, well, who cares? Let's just accept that there's an oppressive dictatorship 90 miles offshore. And then there's the nature of this regime. It's almost a miracle that this government has been able to exist for 67 years so close to the United States, after so many adversarial activities that they have been involved with. Remember, Cuba is an ally and has been an ally for decades. Of Iran, obviously, of Russia, the Russians and the Chinese have spy operations that are based out of Cuba. It was in Cuba that our diplomats first experienced Havana Syndrome, something that has ruined people's lives. So I think the better question is, why didn't the United States take action sooner?
- [34:36]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
So what is the end game here? If this pressure, this economic pressure doesn't work, would you support a military option? Would you support sending U.S. troops in there to exact regime change? Is that something that is on the table here?
- [34:51]
Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
I think the next logical step here for the Trump administration, if the negotiations do not lead us anywhere, is to try to bring Raul Castro to justice. Clearly, there's a model for that already. The United States has demonstrated that they can execute that type of mission successfully, and there's the legal justification for it, given that a grand jury has delivered an indictment. And of course, the facts in this case are very clear. Everyone knows that those planes were shot out of the sky by military jets. Everyone knows that that happened over international waters, that the pilots and the planes were completely unarmed. So the case is very clear. Although Raul Castro would obviously have the right to a trial and to receive a judgment from a jury of his peers. But I think that that would be the next logical step. And perhaps the prospects of that happening will lead the generals that are maintaining the Cuban regime's grip on power to negotiate, to truly commit to some very simple things that are a standard in the Americas. A reminder, we do have an Inter American Charter here in the Americas where every country in this part of the world has made a commitment to democratic values, to rule of law, to not having political prisoners and prisoners of conscience as we have in Cuba. So that is our hope and we're very hopeful that Cuba in the very near future can get on the path to prosperity, to peace, to being a truly free and independent nation. Yesterday was the 20th of May, the day where Cuba celebrates its independence from Spain. And it had that independence and that republic for 57 years that has been eclipsed by a dictatorship that has run the country for 67 years now.
- [37:13]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Congressman, it's so good to have you on. Obviously this is a fast moving story, so we'll see where it goes from here. But we'd love to have you back on to see if there is some sort of negotiated settlement or if, as you said, this might end up with US Forces moving into Cuba and trying to capture Raul Castro. Thank you so much.
- [37:30]
Carlos Curbelo (Former Congressman from Florida)
Thank you. It's good to be with you.
- [37:32]
Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Okay, just before we go,
- [37:38]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
I pledge allegiance to the United States of America.
- [37:49]
Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Now, how could you resist wanting to be part of the United States of Americas once you've heard that? Well, this is your chance. We are building up a map of listeners state by state and we want to hear from all 50 of them, from Montana to Delaware to Arizona and everywhere in between. You don't have to actually live there if you've got a connection of some kind. Maybe you visited got family there. It's even on your road trip wish list. Consider this your invitation to get in touch whether you are a first time emailer or a regular like this. Americaster from Alaska.
- [38:22]
Listener/Caller
Hi Justin, Anthony, Sarah and the arrest of the Americast team. We would like to put ourselves and especially our son Andrew, his wife Chrissy, and their two sons Sebastian and Theodore for Alaska in your United States of AmericasT feature. Our family moved there from Houston, Texas to Anchorage last May to work in the oil industry. We are now lucky to be six weeks away from our second visit in a year. It's a beautiful country and wildlife, including a moose eating Halloween pumpkin on the doorstep caught by the door camera and a porcupine wandering up to the door last week. Big fans and love the rambling chats. All the best guys. Adrian and Fran Snowling in Brundle, Norfolk.
- [39:16]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Rambling chat.
- [39:18]
Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
I have no idea what he means there. We should tell you though that he also sent us a video from the doorbell camera that caught a moose coming right up to the doorstep and starting to munch on some pumpkins that were there. So it must have been Halloween time or so. But is that the sort of thing you don't see that in Texas, do you?
- [39:38]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
You don't see that in Texas. Actually, one time when I was in Alaska I did see a moose also like this. Didn't have antlers. I thought it was a horse at first so I kind of embarrassed to to say that. But it is a remarkable beast. They're so large. We were at Alaska together last year. Did you see any moose?
- [39:55]
Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah, I was up in Anchorage last summer. Was it for the Trump Putin summit which was fascinating. First time I've ever been to Alaska. Definitely made me want to go back. Didn't manage to see any moose. It's the bears I want to go back for. Really eager to go and watch some of the bears pulling salmon out of the rivers in Alaska.
- [40:11]
Anthony (BBC Washington Bureau)
Yeah, it is beautiful country and I would recommend going there in the summertime when it is warm and the sun is out. But enough rambling. Sarah, shall we wrap up this episode?
- [40:21]
Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
We better have before any anybody accuses us of of being less than straight to the point. Bye bye bye.
- [40:33]
J
Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc code. The WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the americast discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time.
- [41:06]
Podcast Narrator
Bye.
- [41:19]
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Sarah (BBC Washington Bureau)
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