E (2:25)

Mr. President, in the name of our.

D (2:27)

God, have mercy upon the people who are scared. Now, are you supportive of these onesies?

B (2:33)

I'm supportive of vaccines.

F (2:34)

What is happening. Like, this is not America. This is a terrible nightmare.

D (2:39)

This is what victory feels like. Yeah, hello, it's Sarah here, and I'm in the BBC's Washington bureau and it's.

F (2:56)

Anthony right alongside Sarah in Washington, D.C.

D (2:59)

And always these days, Anthony, we have to do a time check before we start and say it's just after 11 in the morning here in Washington. That makes it just after three in the afternoon in the UK at the moment. And we're doing that because the news moves and changes so fast that we need our Amer casters to know what time we were recording this so at least they can believe us that what we said was right at the time. Even if it changes before they're listening to it.

F (3:21)

Yeah, absolutely. This is trying testing times. And it gives us plenty to talk about though, doesn't it, Sarah?

D (3:27)

It does, it does. And we've got a great guest that we're going to be talking to later as well, a Canadian journalist and podcaster called Jordan Heath Rawlins, who has a podcast called Elbows Up. So first thing to ask him is why is it called that? But also we can delve into the complicated U.S. canada relationship with him. So I'm looking forward to talking to him a bit later. But first of all, Anthony, we had some news happen late yesterday afternoon.

F (3:51)

Right here is Donald Trump sitting behind his desk in the Oval Office talking about tariffs.

E (3:57)

This is the beginning of Liberation Day in America. We're going to take back just some of the money that has been taken from us by people sitting behind this desk or another desk that's not quite as nice. And we're going to charge countries for doing business in our country and taking our jobs, taking our wealth, taking a lot of things that they've been taking over the years. They've taken so much out of our country, friend and foe. And frankly, friend has been oftentimes much worse than foe. And what we're going to be doing is a 25% tariff on all cars that are not made in the United States. If they're made in the United States.

F (4:42)

There'S absolutely no terror Liberation Day. He doesn't undersell this, does he? That's pretty dramatic language for these new tariffs that are gonna have a dramatic effect, I think, on not just the global automobile industry, but the American automobile industry as well, because a lot of these American cars aren't made in the US they're made in Canada and Mexico. And all of a sudden they're gonna get hit by 25% tariffs.

D (5:05)

But that's what Donald Trump wants, isn't it? I mean, he wants it to be incredibly expensive for people to buy cars that weren't made in the United States. So, so that all of these companies, whether they're British, Japanese or American, will get rid of their factories in Canada, in Mexico, anywhere else, and recite them in America. That's the purpose.

F (5:21)

That is the purpose. The other purpose he talked about in this event at the Oval Office was that it's going to generate millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars in revenue. And there's a bit of a contradiction there. Either it relocates auto manufacturing to the US and everyone buys their cars that are made in the US and there's no revenue from tariffs, or people keep buying cars manufactured abroad, paying this 25% tariff and that generates their revenue. You can't have both. So it'll be curious to see how he squares this.

D (5:54)

And he's still insisting that it's not going to cost consumers more. The whole concept of tariffs, that the company somehow will absorb $100 billion, as you say, that he thinks could come in from these car tariffs without putting prices up in the stores.

F (6:07)

It's interesting to see who liked this and who didn't like this. The auto unions, the auto workers unions here in the US were very quick to come out and celebrate this because it does mean more manufacturing jobs in the U.S. if these factories relocate, therefore more workers who are paying into the unions or members of the unions. So it strengthens them. The auto companies themselves. Well, first of all, their stock market, their stock prices tumbled pretty dramatically, particularly General Motors, that some of their best selling cars and trucks are made in Mexico and it will be hit by this. But even Ford and whatever they call the other one. Yeah, exactly. What used to be, what was it?

D (6:52)

Chrysler.

F (6:52)

Chrysler, yeah. So they were also adversely affected by this and I think they see how damaging this is going to be. And of course, the reaction from the EU and Canada we've seen now, they're very concerned about this and they are already planning for some sort of retaliatory tariffs when these go into effect at the beginning of April.

D (7:15)

And that is of course what we call a trade war, when people are putting tit for tat retaliatory tariffs up. And there was a warning, wasn't there, from Donald Trump, who said, don't retaliate with this, otherwise I'll hit you with something even harder. So he's talking the language of a.

F (7:28)

Global trade war right now. Do we think that he means it? Do we think that Donald Trump is gonna follow through with this. He was asked, is there a chance that these tariffs will be rolled back? And he said no, these are permanent, these are here now. He said that before and rolled things back, including 25% tariffs on everything Canada and Mexico exports to the U.S. do we think he might do that again?

D (7:51)

Well, that's what places like the UK will be hoping for as well. Because of course, I mean, Donald Trump really has no truck with the European Union and has said some very, very rude things about them. Think America hasn't been treated fairly in trade with the eu and so it's very specifically targeting them. And of course the UK has been hoping to be exempted from quite a lot of this. That was one of the things that Keir Starmer was talking to President Trump about when he was here a few weeks ago in the Oval Office. And fingers are being very tightly crossed in the UK to see if they can avoid this. And the Chancellor was very careful yesterday not to talk about retaliatory tariffs. But yeah, the UK would, I'm sure be hoping that if they can enter into wider trade talks, then maybe this 25% tariff on British made cars could be rolled back.

F (8:32)

Land Rovers and Jaguars are already pretty expensive. I can't imagine an extra 25% on top of that. That is going to make it a really tough swallow for a lot of American consumers.

D (8:43)

There's one question in from an Ameracaster Andrew in Galloway, who is asking, do car tariffs severely limit Americans affordable choice of cars going forward? My experience is that there aren't that many affordable cars in America, but maybe that's just me.

F (8:56)

Yeah, obviously if you add 25% to the asking price of any car, it is going to make it less affordable. And as I mentioned, a lot of the cars that are that are going to be affected by this are very popular models and not just ones made by European car companies, but also ones that are made by American car companies and by General Motors. There's a certain truck, I think that is one of their best selling models that's made in Mexico. All of that is going to get more expensive. You're going to get less options of what to buy. Now, long term, if you talk to Trump and his supporters, they say things are going to get more affordable because they're going to move all these manufacturing jobs back to the US it's going to help the American economy. Eventually, once you ramp up production in the US prices will come down because there'll be more options that aren't hit by the tariffs and then everyone will be happy. But in the short term, I don't think there's any question, Andrew, that is going to be pricier to buy not only cars that are hit by this tariffs, but you could imagine domestic manufacturers could say, hey, you know, now everything else is 25% more expensive. Maybe we'll raise our prices 5% or 10% and get a little bit more profits, but still be competitive compared to these overseas cars.

D (10:07)

Yeah. And the big question, I guess is if it does make things more affordable in the long run, whether that happens within a four year electoral cycle before the next presidential election or not, that's the gamble.

F (10:17)

Now, there's another component to this, a political component. The episode we talked about yesterday afternoon, the episode we talked about yesterday night was Signalgate. Do we think that this could be a distraction? The fact that they did this now, that Donald Trump announced this now, could be a distraction attempt to change the subject from Signal Gate.

D (10:39)

It looked a bit like it in the Oval Office because he was talking away about these tariffs, announcing them and answering questions about it when journalists kept trying to ask about Signal and what he thought of Mike Waltz and Pete Hegsest, the role in all of that. And he was trying to brush those questions away and get back to anybody who would ask him about the tariffs. So, I mean, you could see a sort of physical demonstration of that in the Oval Office yesterday. And he had set Liberation Day for April 2nd. He's been talking about this for weeks, saying that Liberation Day will come then.

F (11:05)

Right. We didn't really find out that there was going to be a tariff announcement yesterday until yesterday afternoon. There were some hints before that that it could be coming up as soon as yesterday. But everyone had kind of been circling that April 2nd date on their calendar, saying this is when all of these different tariffs are going to be announced. So the fact that they moved it up and one that would definitely generate headlines and led a lot of the various news programs, was on the front page of the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. It did have a bit of an effect of giving journalists media outlets another big story that they have to cover in addition to the ongoing turmoil around Signalgate.

D (11:45)

Yeah. Because Anthony, I'm sure you've noticed as well, it's impossible to forget that he had said April the second, because every time he mentions that, he says, oh, I wanted to make it April 1st, but I couldn't for obvious reasons. And it's going to cost us tens of billions of dollars to do it an extra day late, but I just felt I couldn't do it on the 1st of April because that would look too silly. So the 2nd of April it is. And he's repeated that ad nauseam.

F (12:04)

Yeah. Now, Marianne isn't here, but I'm going to bring up Elon Musk. Ding, ding. Do we have yet start the sirens, Elon? One of the things I found interesting was that Elon Musk's Tesla company, most of their cars are manufactured in California and Texas, so they are going to be better off, perhaps at least less hit by these tariffs than some of the other major electric car manufacturers. Donald Trump was asked about that and he said no, no, he hadn't consulted Elon Musk at all. But clearly there's a symbiotic relationship there and something that also clearly benefits Elon Musk. You have to wonder, was that part of the consideration here?

D (12:48)

Yeah, Musk did post on X, the social media platform that he owns, obviously saying that Tesla is not immune from this, that they'll be hit by it too. But of course, as you say, Anthony, the point is they'll be hit by it less than their competitors. So the other electric vehicles that people might choose to buy in America, more imported components or are brought in from abroad, so they will be hit harder by these tariffs. But everybody imports batteries and some other parts in order to make these cars. And that's the thing, isn't it? There will be tariffs on car parts as well, not just finished vehicles. So the cost for Tesla will go up a bit.

F (13:20)

Yeah. I just pulled up Tesla stock price here, up 22.55% in the last five days, up about 6% already today in trading.

D (13:30)

So that's from particular lows, isn't it, though? Because the other problems that there have been with people and selling their Teslas, refusing to buy them, dumping their Tesla stock and even attacking Teslas and Tesla showrooms in a political reaction to Elon Musk and what he's doing with the cutting government spending. Tesla stock had been plunging, hadn't it?

F (13:49)

Yeah, year to date, it was down 25%. It bottomed out, it looks like, at about the 18th of March. So over a week ago. It has started to go back up again now. So you can't attribute at all to this decision by Donald Trump, but it does look like it's helping.

D (14:04)

And he says practically daily, he says how much he loves Elon Musk, what a brilliant job he's doing, and how astonishing it is that this guy with all of these different Companies has never asked him for a single favor, never mentioned the fact that Donald Trump ended the electrical vehicle mandate, thus I guess making it possibly less likely that people buy electric cars like Elon Musk's Tesla. And he lauds this daily. He's never asked me for a single thing in business. But it was only two weeks ago Donald Trump had all those Tesla vehicles lined up outside the White House as he was walking around them like he was some kind of car showroom.

F (14:39)

Yeah, exactly. It was a car dealership on the White House grounds, which was pretty remarkable.

D (14:44)

I'm reading the Walter Isaacson biography of Elon Musk at the moment. It's not brand new, but it is really, really fascinating, especially now that he's sort of front and center of our political discourse. And it's a very different view of him because it's looking at him as a businessman, not all the political stuff that he's been doing. And one of the things that's interesting is actually he was really, really obsessed with, with having as much manufacturing in the US as possible and not being reliant on supply chains that came from other parts of the world, which, given that that was all pre pandemic, was pretty far sighted of him. That's the thing. Elon Musk has become this real kind of hate figure among some people in America for his political views. But he is a business genius. You don't get to be the richest man in the world by accident.

F (15:21)

No, clearly. And that's also what Donald Trump means by Liberation Day. He wants to liberate the country from a dependence on overseas imports so that we don't have to worry about what happens in China. We don't have to worry about what happens in Europe. Everything that we use, all the jobs that are created by manufacturing are created here in the United States.

D (15:44)

Now, Canada is going to be hit very hard by this, obviously, because a lot of cars are manufactured in Canada and imported into the US So that's one of the things that, that we want to talk to our guest, Jordan Heath Rollins about, who hosts the Elbows up podcast, which says it's a podcast for Canada in a dangerous new world. Welcome to Americas Jordan.

G (16:05)

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

D (16:07)

Elbows up. I know it's a Canadian phrase, but I'm going to be honest, I don't know what it means.

G (16:12)

Okay, so Canada is obviously associated with hockey. Elbows up is a hockey phrase for most people who don't play hockey. You could interpret it to mean it's time to Fight. It doesn't actually really mean that. One of Canada's most famous hockey players was Gordie Howe, who was renowned not only for scoring goals, but also for being incredibly physical, for making the other team pay a price. And what he would say when the game started to get rough and the other team tried pushing his team around, is when you go into the corner with them, keep your elbows up. And that means basically make sure that if they come after you, that they're paying a price as well. So that's kind of the origin of the phrase elbows up. It's obviously evolved into something of a catchphrase for the current moment, but really it means, like, if they're coming after you, hit them back.

D (17:03)

So that explains what the joke is in this political advert where Mark Carney, the Liberal candidate going into the general election, is talking to the actor Mike Myers.

H (17:12)

Mr. Prime Minister. Mike Myers, what are you doing here? I just thought I'd come up and check on things.

A (17:19)

You live in the States.

H (17:20)

Yeah, but I'll always be Canadian. You're a defenseman defending a two on one. What do you do? Take away the pass, obviously. What are the two seasons in Toronto? Winter and construction. Wow, you really are Canadian. Yeah. But let me ask you, Mr. Prime Minister, will there always be a Canada? There will always be. Be a Canada. All right, elbows out, elbows up.

F (17:41)

Will there always be a Canada? That's kind of question you probably weren't expecting people to be asking heading into this general election. But I think it does kind of illustrate the, the, the, the current climate, political climate in Canada.

G (17:53)

I think it's safe to say the political climate in Canada is in unprecedented territory.

D (17:59)

How do people understand what Donald Trump is saying? Is it being interpreted as just big talk or a genuine threat?

G (18:08)

Here's the thing. We lived through the first Trump administration in Canada. Nobody loved it. He's never been very popular here. Even amongst a good swath of our Conservative voters, he's never been popular. And there is, like so much of America in 2015, 2016, a tendency to dismiss him as a joke. And that's where we were at by the end of the first administration. Obviously, when he won again, people were concerned about all the usual things that Trump brings with him to the table. About the rise of racism and transphobia, about mass deportations, about what he would mean for the economy. This was not on anybody's radar in the weeks after the election. And then he started talking about tariffs. And, you know, we fought this guy over tariffs before we had to rip up nafta, which was the trade deal we'd signed decades ago, and replace it with the usmca, which was signed by Donald Trump, and he is now ripping that up again. That was a fight we weren't looking forward to, but were prepared to have. And then came the 51st state stuff. And I have to be honest, and this is what I've been telling folks outside of Canada when I do these kind of interviews or talk on other podcasts, it's a joke to a lot of people in America right now, I think, and maybe to some people around the world, not Denmark, but others who just see, like, who does this guy think he is? It's not a joke up here. Canadians are furious in a way, in a way I can't remember them having ever been at the United States.

F (19:55)

You talk about Canadians not seeing this coming. I don't think anyone saw this coming. Donald Trump certainly didn't campaign on picking a fight with Canada last year when he was running for president. But what do Canadians think Donald Trump wants out of Canada? I mean, clearly Justin Trudeau is taking seriously these annexation threats. He said that Trump wants to destabilize Canada to make it easier to bring it into the United States. Is that what Canadians believe? What do they see as Donald Trump's long term agenda or aspirations are here for the northern neighbor?

G (20:31)

First of all, I think it's foolish to attribute any long term aspirations to Donald Trump, as though he's playing some sort of game of chess. Donald Trump wants the resources that Canada has. He likes the idea of being the guy to bring in a huge landmass. He probably wants the Arctic, which is obviously, obviously going to become much more valuable in the years to come. And so I think Canadians would be idiotic. And I don't, I don't want to speak on behalf of Canadians, though I will say, given the feedback to this podcast from all sides of the political spectrum, I think, you know, we've got a finger on the pulse here. Canadians would be idiotic not to take this seriously. And I don't think any of them are dismissing it. And I think that he might change his mind tomorrow. I hope he does. I think a lot of us hopes he does, or I think a lot of us hope he does. But I think the damage that's being done here to this relationship will take decades, generations to fix.

D (21:33)

Now, the new Prime Minister, Mark Carney, has just called a general election, and I presume it's this issue that's going to dominate that. So how does it change Canadian Politics generally, what impact is it going to have on the election if this threat from Donald Trump is the overarching idea?

G (21:49)

All right, so I'm going back on the aggregate poll tracker here that the Toronto Star, which is one of our biggest newspapers, publishes. They've been publishing it since about December 20th. By law, we have to have an election by October of this year. So whether it was outgoing Prime Minister Trudeau or now Mark Carney, who has just called one, we were preparing for an election. And for the past two and a half to three years, it had seemed all but a given that the Conservatives, now led by Pierre Poliev, would win this election. The Liberal Party was deeply unpopular. The party itself was not quite as deeply unpopular as Prime Minister Trudeau, but either way, it was clear they'd been in power nine, almost 10 years. They were on the way out. So this election, which had been over for the past three years, is now a toss up. And according to all the polls, slightly favoring the Liberals returning to power. That is just unprecedented in my adult lifetime watching Canadian politics.

D (22:59)

There's one possible unintended consequence of the 51st state talk, and that is, of course, that Canadians vote far more liberally, more left wing than Americans do, and you would end up with, you know, the biggest state in the union being a reliably Democratic one, returning Democratic senators.

G (23:16)

And nobody up here believes that they'll let us have a vote. I'm serious. We'll be a giant Puerto Rico. That's what everybody up here believes. I mean, what do you guys think? Do you guys think that they, they would all of a sudden, you know, annex Canada and then be like, yeah, here you guys go. Elect all the senators and congressmen you.

F (23:36)

Want, like adding another California, essentially, to the political mix? Yeah, it seems, I don't think they've thought that far ahead, but what Donald Trump has talked about is redefining that border, opening the border up to negotiation, tearing up the line, saying that maybe these treaties that settled the line between the United States and Canada, they're invalid. How much would Canada be willing to fight over that? And not necessarily militarily, but be aggressive in pushing back at American territorial designs over Columbia river water or islands in the Pacific Northwest or islands off the coast of Maine or the Great Lakes? I mean, how much, how aggressive would they be in standing up to Trump if he pushed on the edges there?

G (24:24)

Can I tell you a little story that I tell at the beginning of Elbows up on the first episode about why I decided to do this podcast? It's about a borderline?

F (24:33)

Sure.

G (24:33)

There's a library in a small town called Stansted, Quebec, right on the border of Derby Line, Vermont. It's called the Haskell Free Library. What makes this library kind of cool is that it exists on the borderline. There is actually a line of black tape that runs down the center of the library and through the attached opera house where performers perform. This library has been around since 1904. It's open to people from both communities. These two towns share the cost of it. They share the benefits of it. You don't need to. The entrance is on the American side. If you are a Canadian, you don't need to go through a border checkpoint in order to walk up to the front entrance of the library and go get a book. If you are an American, you don't need to go through a border checkpoint to go actually get the books, which are mostly on the Canadian side. This is a small town near where I grew up on my family farm. So I know this library very well. I used to take out books at this library. And anyway, it's a beautiful place. It's very. Barack Obama in 2016 called it a symbol of the cooperation between our two countries and how we'll always be friends. On January 30th, Kristi Noem, the head of DHS, who was up in the Northeast with ICE, showed up at this library, and she stood on the U.S. side of the black tape, and she said, USA, number one. And she stepped over the line into Canada and said, 51st state. And then she did it again, having, I guess, a good time. This story was reported by the Boston Globe, and it was reported by the Boston Globe. By the Boston Globe as, like, look at this posturing. Canadians were livid in that area. Like, if they knew that she was there when that was going on, they would have fought her. So I can't speak for all Canadians, I don't think. I think Canada's. Like I say on the podcast, we're not looking for a fight, but I think Canada's ready for one. You go back to the recent hockey games that we played against the usa, and the Americans decided they were gonna, like, try to fight some of the Canadian players right off the face off. And they did, and they got a lot more than they bargained for. And I think that's. That's how Canada sees itself, that we're not here to fight, but you also don't want that fight.

F (26:59)

Now, that's, I guess, not encouraging to think about the prospect, but. But we have to but you could see this becoming. Yeah, yeah. You could see this becoming a flashpoint, that there could be flashpoints with unintended consequences drawing out of them.

G (27:15)

And listen, I hope nothing ever happens physically or with either of our two militaries. I think it would be utter foolishness. It would be a huge. A huge tragedy. And like the collapse of the modern world order, if we're not already seeing that. But I do think that there's a trust that's been broken here, whatever happens. And I think that is what will last a lot longer than tariffs from one side or the other. You know, Canadians are just actively avoiding even the American products that haven't been hit with tariffs, even the American products that are still on store shelves. They are just ignoring them. I can go to my. In fact, I just was this morning shopping at my local grocery where there's Ontario strawberries and there's California strawberries. The California strawberries are now priced down to $3 for a carton. The Ontario strawberries are $6 for a carton. Nobody was buying the cheaper California strawberries. They are rotting on the shelves. And the expensive Canadian strawberries are almost gone. And that's just like, that's it. That's what's happened here. It's astounding to see and it's going.

D (28:30)

To have a major impact, as we were saying, on your Canadian elections. So maybe we'll have you back. It would be nice to talk to you again and see how this is developing over the next few weeks. Jordan, it's been a pleasure having you on americat.

G (28:41)

Oh, it's been my pleasure, guys. Thank you so much for having me.

D (28:51)

You've been up near the border, haven't you, doing a story about all of this, talking to Americans who are that bit nearer to Canada. And think about it more than your average American might. What's their feeling?

F (29:01)

Right. I mentioned the territorial disputes between the US And Canada, and the big one right now is an island off the coast of Maine where lobster fishers from both Maine and Canada are competing for catches. And I spoke to a lot of the American lobster men and they told me they have friends who are Canadian. A lot of Canadians they get along with, but they don't like the Canadian manner of doing business. They feel like they're breaking the rules. They don't like the Canadian government, and they're actually encouraged by Donald Trump's rhetoric. One of them told me, Canada's like that person who lives in your apartment has been eating your food and not paying your rent. And and when you finally say, hey, hey, you gotta cough up your fair share, they get angry at you. So I think there are Americans who very much agree with what Donald Trump is doing and want to see the US Throw its weight around a little more and maybe get some more benefits for them.

D (29:51)

And Jordan was saying there, look, that this has been damaging relationships between America and Canada for much longer than Donald Trump will be in office, generations, potentially. There'll be a lack of trust there. How much would Americans care that Canadian feelings are hurt and that this relationship won't be the same again for a long time?

F (30:07)

You know, it's kind of an accepted wisdom that Americans don't really care about foreign policy. I think the Americans on the border with Canada, they go back and forth that benefit from Canadian tourism, that benefit from being able to go take holidays in Canada. They're going to be very disappointed and upset and they're going to feel this, this broken trust more than an American living in Texas or an American living here on the East Coast, Mid Atlantic. They are much more concerned about their everyday life and they don't really spend a lot of time thinking about Canada or for that matter, Europe or anywhere else in the world.

D (30:43)

That's it for this episode. Thank you for spending time with us and we'll see you all again soon. Bye. Bye.

F (30:48)

Bye now.

C (30:51)

Americast, americast from BBC News.

A (30:55)

Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmericasT. You are now officially an AmericasT. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride, navigating the US News, particularly in the era of Trump. But you have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is ameracastbc.co.uk the WhatsApp is 033-01-23948. We answer your questions every single week, actually on the podcast. So keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord. The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.

B (31:53)

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