Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | A Conversation about Conversations with RBG (Sept 21, 2020)

Episode Overview

This deeply engaging episode of Amicus revisits a 2019 live conversation between host Dahlia Lithwick and Jeffrey Rosen, President of the National Constitution Center. The discussion centers on Rosen’s book, Conversations with Ruth Bader Ginsburg, exploring RBG’s personal character, judicial philosophy, pivotal moments and decisions in her career, and her evolving legacy—especially in the wake of her passing. The tone is affectionate, insightful, and, at times, deeply personal, revealing both the legal and human sides of Justice Ginsburg.

Key Topics & Insights

How Rosen Met RBG and the Start of Their Friendship

• [01:55] Rosen recounts first meeting Justice Ginsburg in 1991 as a young law clerk—an initially intimidating elevator encounter that blossomed into a 25-year friendship, sparked by a conversation about opera.

  "Judge Ginsburg, who I hadn't met, had an ability to be incredibly intimidating, even in her workout clothes... just in an effort to break the ice, I asked her, what operas have you seen recently?... That started this magical, serendipitous, blessed friendship." (Jeffrey Rosen, 01:55)

RBG’s Foundational Principles: Independence and Being a “Lady”

• [03:13]–[10:57] Discussion of the dual advice from RBG’s mother: be independent, but also “be a lady”—seemingly contradictory guidance that defined RBG's personal and professional ethos.

• Lithwick and Rosen explore RBG’s self-mastery and focus—her ability to overcome anger and distractions to devote herself to work.

  "If I don't overcome unproductive emotions, I'll lose precious time for useful work." (RBG, via Rosen, 05:19)

  "To be a lady is by definition to be independent, because you're free of ego-based emotions..." (Rosen, 09:22)

• Anecdotes illustrate RBG’s meticulousness and sense of responsibility (e.g., her detailed editing of scripts, even while seriously ill).

  "Every single page of the manuscript was marked up in her beautiful penciled script... RBG catches [errors] because her attention to detail is so much greater than any other human beings." (Rosen, 07:40)

RBG’s Judicial Minimalism, Evolution, and Voice

• [12:19]–[23:58] RBG began as a cautious, “minimalist” judge, but later became a forceful liberal dissenter as the Court changed around her; this transformation was both structural (her position as senior justice) and personal.

• The infamous "Notorious RBG" persona rose from her passionate dissents and pointed, memorable language (e.g., "just because you’re not getting wet doesn’t mean you throw away your umbrella" - 21:44).

• RBG’s strategic advocacy for gender equality (e.g., representing men in cases to challenge sex-based laws, always incremental and precedent-based).

  "She was always so strategic... always moved incrementally, like Thurgood Marshall." (Rosen, 21:08)

• The Stafford strip search case (2009) acts as a turning point, showcasing RBG’s unique perspective as the lone woman on the bench and her “soft power” in shifting her colleagues’ viewpoints.

  "She sort of tunes up her colleagues from the bench and says, this is nothing like changing for gym class... I don't think the men share my sensitivities on this." (Lithwick, 17:49)

Critiques of Roe v. Wade: Prophecy and Backlash

• [23:58]–[31:56] Early in her nomination, women’s groups were wary of Ginsburg’s skepticism about Roe, thinking her too conservative. RBG’s critique: Roe halted the grassroots, state-by-state progress for abortion rights, creating backlash and making the Court a target.

• Rosen underscores the prescience of RBG’s analysis, including her view that reproductive rights should be grounded in equality, not privacy.

  "This is a decision that should be made... by the people's elected representatives and not nine at the time old men." (RBG, via Lithwick, 25:44)

  "[She] was as respected by liberals and conservatives... her criticisms of Roe were prescient." (Rosen, 28:02)

RBG and the #MeToo Movement; Nuanced Feminism

• [32:04]–[38:59] Ginsburg was ahead of the legal curve on issues like non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) and the MeToo movement.

• She favored both empowering accusers and ensuring due process for the accused, advocating for impartial arbitration in university proceedings.

  "I hope those [confidentiality] agreements will not be enforced by the courts." (RBG, via Lithwick, 33:17)

  "There are so many women in the workplace that we won't go back to the way we did." (RBG, recounted by Rosen, 34:22)

• Both Lithwick and Rosen reflect on RBG’s intersectionality and empathetic focus on poor and marginalized women, a sensitivity sometimes missed by critics.

  "Her solicitude is always for the poor women and for the women who will not be able to pack up a suitcase and fly to Paris and go to a spa and terminate a pregnancy." (Lithwick, 36:50)

RBG’s Deep Empathy and Legacy of Service

• [38:59]–[47:25] Despite her privileged upbringing, RBG’s jurisprudence is characterized by empathy and concern for those less fortunate.

• She maintained lifelong connections with her clients, a mark of her “disciplined empathy.”

  "Her capacity to deeply, deeply empathize with lives that are not like hers... is a signal quality she's carried through her life, and it makes her very different." (Lithwick, 42:41)

  "Behind that protective particularism was the warmest and most acutely attentive empathy imaginable." (Rosen, 44:39)

The Controversy Over RBG Not Stepping Down Under Obama

• [47:25]–[50:37] Audience Q&A addresses why RBG didn’t retire when Obama could appoint her replacement. Rosen shares her reasoning: no guarantee a better justice would be confirmed due to Senate polarization; Lithwick situates this as a response formed, in part, by witnessing the forced retirement of Sandra Day O'Connor and gendered critiques.

  "What reason is there to believe that anyone better than I could have gotten through the Senate?" (RBG, via Rosen, 47:53)

RBG’s Constitutional Vision: “Embracive” Equality

• [50:43]–[58:15] Ginsburg performed the first same-sex wedding as an expression of the Constitution’s “genius”—its capacity to expand the concept of “We the People.”

• Her vision of “embracive” originalism: that the Founders anticipated the Constitution would grow ever more inclusive.

  "The idea of we the people has become more and more embracive... inclusiveness has come about as a result of constitutional amendments... and judicial interpretation." (RBG, via Lithwick, 50:54)

  "Embracing the left out people, not just grudgingly, but with open arms. Isn't that beautiful?" (Rosen, 53:25)

• RBG cautioned against relying solely on courts for social change; real progress must be led by the people.

RBG’s Place in the Ongoing Fight for Women’s Equality

• [58:16]–[63:49] Is feminism “catching up” to RBG, or has her vision become outdated? Lithwick sees Ginsburg as both a prophet and, at times, “disappointed” by persistent gender disparities—especially in domestic and professional realms.

  "She genuinely believed that we as a society would be much more equal... but also in the guys, change the toilet paper role, it's not hard. And, you know, we're still not there." (Lithwick, 60:28)

  "The space in which women are allowed to exist and thrive publicly is contracting in front of our noses." (Lithwick, 62:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “She lives more successfully than any human being I’ve ever encountered…setting aside her physical pain so that she can focus on all of her work…” (Jeffrey Rosen, 08:17)
• “She received [her nephew’s movie script]...He’d worked on it for years. And she said, page one, line one...She was absolutely ferocious that he get the story right. And more than anything, she really wanted him to get Marty right—the character of Marty.” (Dahlia Lithwick, 10:57)
• "It was really just a change in role and in the composition of the court, not in her." (Rosen, 14:50)
• “[On Roe]...the Supreme Court decision made every law in the country...unconstitutional in one fell swoop... Opposition mounted... Instead of fighting in the trenches, there was one clear target to aim at—the unelected justices of the Supreme Court.” (RBG, via Lithwick, 25:44)
• "[On MeToo] I hope those [confidentiality] agreements will not be enforced by the courts." (RBG, via Lithwick, 33:17)
• “Her empathy…is a signal quality she’s carried through her life.” (Lithwick, 42:41)
• “What reason is there to believe that anyone better than I could have gotten through the Senate?” (RBG, via Rosen, 47:53)
• “The idea of we the people has become more and more embracive...Inclusiveness has come about as a result of constitutional amendments and judicial interpretation.” (RBG, via Lithwick, 50:54)
• “Embracing the left out people, not just grudgingly, but with open arms.” (RBG, via Rosen, 53:25)
• “She really believed that...by 1979, we were all going to be in that marriage [like hers with Marty]...And clearly that’s not what happens...She’s shocked that there’s still such a massive disparity…” (Lithwick, 60:29)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:55] – Rosen's first meeting with RBG
• [03:13] – The two guiding lessons from RBG's mother; be independent, be a lady
• [12:19] – Stories highlighting RBG’s meticulousness and egalitarian mindset
• [15:39] – RBG’s transformation and “soft power” on the Court
• [23:58] – RBG’s critique of Roe v. Wade and its impact on her nomination
• [32:04] – RBG’s views on MeToo, NDAs, and due process
• [38:59] – The roots of RBG’s empathy despite privilege
• [47:25] – The issue of not retiring during the Obama presidency
• [50:43] – Justice Ginsburg’s “embracive” view of the Constitution and originalism
• [58:16] – Discussion of her constitutional legacy and the current state of feminism

Conclusion

This episode is a tour de force examination of Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s personal and professional legacy, blending legal analysis, biography, and celebration. Lithwick and Rosen provide an unvarnished, affectionate, and deeply insightful portrait of RBG—her visionary approach to the law, strategic wisdom, laser focus, and extraordinary empathy. The listener comes away with a profound understanding of why Ginsburg mattered, why she continues to inspire, and why the work toward equality is, in her view, far from complete.