Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Episode Summary

Episode Title: "A Judge, on Judging"

Release Date: May 11, 2019
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Judge Robert Lasnick, Senior U.S. District Judge, Western District of Washington

Episode Overview

This episode of Amicus marks a milestone for the podcast, featuring its first in-depth interview with a sitting federal judge, Robert Lasnick. The conversation delves into the realities of judicial life, the practical and philosophical boundaries on what judges can say publicly, and the challenges and responsibilities of judicial service. Judge Lasnick, drawing from his experience and background in both journalism and law, speaks candidly about the inner workings of the federal bench, perceptions of the judiciary, access to justice, the impact of politics, and the need for transparency and reform in court systems.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Judges and Public Communication

• Judges’ Silence and Public Perception

  • Judges are constrained by ethical rules, leading to a public perception of aloofness or grumpiness.
  • Quote [03:57]: “I think most of the time we are kind of grumpy and that's why we don't talk. And I think it's fair to say that we're better off with some of the judges not talking. But other judges, I think, really could present a very human... exposure to the public.” — Judge Lasnick

• Advocacy for Cameras in the Courtroom

  • Judge Lasnick argues for more transparency, such as cameras in the courtroom, to allow the public to see the judiciary in action.
  • Quote [05:35]: “I wish people could see us doing what we do on the bench more... Those are things we can talk about, and I wish we would.”

2. Judicial Structure & Processes

• En Banc System and Chief Judge Selection

  • Explains how en banc panels work and how chief judges are selected—often by formula, not always merit.
  • Quote [07:56]: “The RAND report came back and said there's no consensus on what's the best way, but what you do is the worst way. So we decided to keep it.”

• Senior Status Explained

  • Judges can move to senior status when their age and years of service total 80 (the "Rule of 80").
  • This process allows for new appointments, but delays and politics often leave seats unfilled, frustrating active judges ready to reduce their caseloads.

3. Judicial Appointments & Politicization

• Impact of Partisanship
  • Lasnick reflects on political stalemates in nominations and laments the increasing trend of identifying judges by appointing president and ideology.
  • Quote [10:59]: “We are judges, and in the best sense of the word, we're federal judges who... would generally handle each case almost exactly as our colleagues would. And... to politicize who judges are... is very bad for the federal judiciary.”
  • Notes this problem is most acute at the Supreme Court level, less so at district courts.

4. The Declining Jury Trial and Legal Profession Trends

• Vanishing Civil Jury Trial
  • Discusses declining jury trials due to litigation costs, fewer experienced trial lawyers, and the rise of alternative dispute resolution.
  • Quote [17:23]: “We're seeing the vanishing civil jury trial for various reasons... also a diminishing bar that's comfortable trying cases.”
• Need for Trial Experience
  • Judges encourage opportunities for young lawyers in court to remedy the experience gap.

5. Race, Fairness, and Implicit Bias

• Bias in the Justice System
  • Judge Lasnick details work on implicit bias and access to justice, including a locally developed jury video on unconscious bias now used in other districts.
  • Quote [22:59]: “We have to deal with implicit bias... We're getting wonderful feedback from the jurors about how it made them slow down, made them think: if that person was a different race, would I be looking at this case differently?”

6. Judicial Governance and Transparency

• Aging Leadership and Secrecy
  • Judicial conferences operate largely in private and are led by the most senior (i.e., oldest) judges. Lasnick favors more sunlight and new voices.
  • Quote [29:01]: “We're still giving out notepads and pens to jurors who are 21 or 24 years old who haven't used a notepad and a pen in their lives... How about a laptop?”
• Need for Openness
  • Argues for transparency in things like misconduct investigations and the inner workings of the judiciary.

7. Cameras and Public Access

• Arguments for Cameras
  • Transparency breeds trust; televised proceedings can demystify and humanize judges.
  • Pushes back on standard arguments against cameras.
  • Quote [35:05]: “The more that people see what we do, the better we look and the more confidence they have in us.”

8. Personal Reflections: Life as a Judge

• Lasnick’s Journey

  • He began his career in journalism before moving to law—the diversity of experience helps him appreciate continual learning as a judge.
  • Finds satisfaction in fair, well-conducted trials, even earning the rare post-trial respect from convicted defendants.

• How Judges Use Clerks

  • Values seasoned, diverse law clerks and favors hiring after some real-world legal experience. Relates the importance of teamwork in drafting opinions.

9. Advice to Young Lawyers and Law Students

• Find Purpose in the Law
  • Most happy lawyers are in public service or mission-driven roles, not high-paying law firms.
  • Quote [47:04]: “It's always keeping your eye on what is the real reason I became a lawyer... Be that lawyer.”
• On Law School Debt
  • Advises young lawyers to demand a fairer system regarding student loans.

10. Relationship with the Media

• Accepts that judges (and decisions) will face media scrutiny but stresses the need for accuracy and condemnation of ad hominem attacks.
• Warns that routine, personalized or prejudiced attacks—especially from high offices—endanger both individuals and the institution.

11. Music, Bob Dylan, and Culture

• Lasnick delights in being known for quoting Bob Dylan lyrics in his opinions, tying the themes of justice and social progress in music to judicial values.
  • Quote [57:18]: “Those songs are about justice. Those songs are about being focused on trying to make this world a better place... Dylan provides a touchstone for me of remembering why I'm where I am and doing what I'm doing.”

12. Closing: Hope for the Rule of Law

• What Gives Hope?
  • Lasnick looks to young people and the ongoing arc of justice—progress is uneven, but the trajectory is positive.
  • Quote [59:27]: “Young people give me a lot of hope... For the most part, those advances have been from the people, not from the courts. Sometimes from the courts, but it's much better when it comes from the people themselves... I think we're ultimately moving forward... the federal judiciary will persevere.”

Memorable Quotes and Timestamps

• On Judge’s Silence:
  "I think most of the time we are kind of grumpy and that's why we don't talk..." — Judge Lasnick [03:57]

• On Senior Status:
  "The formula is you can go on senior status when you are 65 or older and your years of service as A federal Article 3 judge added to your age... equals 80." — Judge Lasnick [08:37]

• On Gender and Politics in Appointments:
  "There's no adjective in front of our name as to who appointed us... I think this move to politicize who judges are... is very bad for the federal judiciary." — Judge Lasnick [10:59]

• On the Decline of Jury Trials:
  "We're seeing the vanishing civil jury trial... also a diminishing bar that's comfortable trying cases." — Judge Lasnick [17:23]

• On Implicit Bias:
  "We have to deal with implicit bias... We're getting wonderful feedback from the jurors..." — Judge Lasnick [22:59]

• On Judicial Transparency:
  "There's very little that you ever get to know about that. I wish we would do things more in the light of day." — Judge Lasnick [31:13]

• On Cameras in Court:
  "The more that people see what we do, the better we look and the more confidence they have in us." — Judge Lasnick [35:05]

• On the Purpose of Law:
  "It's always keeping your eye on what is the real reason I became a lawyer... Be that lawyer." — Judge Lasnick [47:04]

• On Hope and Progress:
  "Young people give me a lot of hope... I think we're ultimately moving forward and the young people will make sure we continue to move forward, and the federal judiciary will persevere." — Judge Lasnick [59:27]

Notable Moments & Light Touches

• Opening and closing Bob Dylan references; discussing music’s role in framing justice.
• Ongoing wit:
  "How many federal judges does it take to change a light bulb?" — [00:08, 27:06]
  A recurring joke about judicial reluctance to change.
• Segues into personal reading (The Shining, Brandeis bio), Spotify playlists, and reflections on intergenerational change.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:08] – Opening & Introduction
• [03:29] – Judge Lasnick introduced & on public communication limits
• [06:10] – En banc explanation & judicial selection formulas
• [08:19] – Senior status for federal judges explained
• [10:59] – On politicization of judicial appointments
• [17:23] – Declining jury trials and impact on legal culture
• [22:59] – Access to justice; racial fairness & implicit bias
• [29:01] – Governance, transparency, and innovation resistance
• [35:05] – Cameras in courts: Transparency argument
• [44:25] – Clerkships & how Lasnick hires and works with clerks
• [47:04] – Career & life advice for lawyers
• [49:55] – Relationship between judiciary and media
• [53:10] – On quoting Dylan and music culture in opinions
• [57:18] – Why Dylan matters to Judge Lasnick
• [59:27] – What gives hope for rule of law and the judiciary

Conclusion

Judge Lasnick’s appearance on Amicus provides a rare, candid window into the federal judiciary from the judge’s seat. With humor, realism, and a little Dylan, he discusses the realities, limitations, and enduring mission of the bench—offering both critique and hope for an institution at the heart of American democratic life.