Podcast Summary: Amicus Presents: The Class of RBG – Part One

Podcast: Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts
Host: Dahlia Lithwick (Slate Podcasts)
Episode Date: July 21, 2020

Overview

This special episode marks Part One in a two-part audio series commemorating the women of Harvard Law School’s class of 1959, most notably Ruth Bader Ginsburg (RBG) and her eight female classmates. Dahlia Lithwick explores not just RBG’s path but also those of her remarkable peers, weaving together their memories, challenges, and triumphs amid the overwhelmingly male world of 1950s legal education. The episode blends archival storytelling with candid interviews—serving as both an oral history and a belated class reunion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Women at Harvard Law in the 1950s

• Opening Reflection (00:00–04:24):

  • The episode opens with a recounting of the famous "Dean’s Dinner" from the movie On the Basis of Sex, where Harvard's Dean challenges female students to justify taking a man’s place.
  • Dahlia Lithwick sets out to discover who RBG’s classmates were and what became of them.

• Historical Context (07:31–08:54):

  • Admission of women to law schools was a recent development; Harvard allowed women only from 1950, years after peer institutions.
  • By 1956, Lila Fenwick became the first Black woman to graduate, but the class remained overwhelmingly white and male.
  • Dean Erwin Griswold’s initial reluctance and eventual support are noted.

2. Meeting the Trailblazers

• Carol Brosnahan (formerly Carol Simon) (04:50–11:36):

  • Describes being seen as "oddities... this weird group of people, you know, with breasts." (Carol Brosnahan, 04:24)
  • Could not attend Harvard Business School (which didn’t admit women), worked on Wall Street but wasn’t allowed to meet clients (09:17–09:22), and eventually applied to Harvard Law partly due to her fiancé’s views about women working. She later broke off the engagement before starting law school.
  • Memorable classroom moment: “Ms. Simon, if you break the engagement, do you have to give back the ring?... I just did.” (Carol, 10:47)

• Flora Schnall (11:59–13:38):

  • Grew up in Brooklyn, attended Smith College, and considered music or writing before landing at Harvard Law partly on a lark and owing to gendered limits in journalism.
  • “I realized... there wasn’t a woman who was a reporter... so I guess on a lark, I decided to apply to Harvard Law School.” (Flora, 12:11)

3. Life as a Female Law Student

• Daily Experiences (13:12–15:11):

  • Married women’s lives were very different from singles’; single women, like Carol and Flora, reminisce about dinner parties and crossword puzzles.
  • Cooking for male classmates sometimes felt like a necessity, other times an opportunity—Carol met her future husband this way.
  • “I took a job... and one of the Voluntary defenders said, ‘We have these six guys... but nobody can cook.’ ... One of the people in the house was a guy by the name of Jim Brosnahan. And three weeks later, we were engaged.” (Carol, 14:16)

• RBG’s Social Approach (15:15–16:39):

  • RBG focused intently on her studies; socialized rarely, and even left dinner parties to work on legal briefs.
  • “Ruth, even then, had no small talk... she might excuse herself and go into the bedroom and work on a brief... while people were over.” (Flora, 15:24)

4. Challenges and Sexism

• “Ladies Day” (06:25–07:31; 18:17–18:53):

  • Professor Barton Leach singled out women for grilling on “Ladies Day,” making them answer all the questions and even sing in class—seen as both humiliating and absurd.
  • “It was so degrading. They didn’t have a Men’s Day.” (Carol, 07:21)

• Facilities and Practical Difficulties (20:33–20:59):

  • Harvard’s reluctance to reform: minimal investment in facilities for women, such as a single, overheated bathroom.
  • “There was asbestos dripping from the ceiling... Before we knew that asbestos wasn’t good for people’s health.” (RBG, 20:33)

• Lack of Institutional Support & Isolation (21:13–22:04):

  • Female camaraderie wasn’t as strong as in later decades, partly due to social and domestic obligations.
  • RBG notes: “For me, I had no time to waste... I had no time for any socializing except on weekends.” (RBG, 21:39)

5. Merit, Law Review, and Gender Barriers

• Law Review Invitations (23:24–24:37):

  • Membership was strictly grade-based. RBG and Alice Vogel (later Stroh) were both top scorers, but Alice bowed out due to her husband’s opposition, despite her academic excellence.
  • “She was the smartest girl by far in the class. Her grades were higher than mine anyway.” (RBG, 24:37)

• Female Support Structures (25:55–26:19):

  • The only “women’s organization” was the Harvard Law Wives Club—created to support male students’ wives, not female law students.

• Cooking Contests and Hazing (26:51–27:22):

  • Women were sometimes drawn into gendered “cooking contests” with unclear boundaries between good-natured fun and hazing.

6. The Infamous “Why Take a Man’s Place?” Dinner

• The Dean’s Dinner (00:00, 28:22–32:19):

  • Multiple recollections diverge on the details but agree on the sense of discomfort as women were asked to justify their place at Harvard.
  • Carol: “He just announced to us that we were taking the place. Now, Ruth may have responded. I think I was too flabbergasted to respond.” (Carol, 28:42)
  • Flora: “Dean, I’m here looking for a husband.” (Flora, 29:45)
  • RBG, as recounted by herself: “My husband is in the second year class, and I think it’s important for a wife to understand her husband’s work.” (RBG, 30:22)

• Dean Griswold’s Motivations (31:11–32:03):

  • Looking back, RBG and Flora believe the Dean wasn’t intentionally mean-spirited but felt pressure to show women would "not waste their law degrees."
  • “There were many good things about Dean Griswold, but he didn't have a sense of humor.” (RBG, 31:11)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We were all oddities of one sort or another... this weird group of people, you know, with breasts.” – Judge Carol Brosnahan (04:24)
• “I applied [to Harvard Law] because I wanted to do something worthwhile. Didn’t want to try again to go to the business school. And I thought being a lawyer would be a good thing.” – Carol Brosnahan (10:26)
• “Ruth, even then, had no small talk... she might excuse herself and go into the bedroom and work on a brief... while people were over.” – Flora Schnall (15:24)
• “She was the smartest girl by far in the class. Her grades were higher than mine anyway.” – Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Alice Vogel (24:37)
• “He wanted to assure the doubting Thomases on the faculty that these women were going to do something worthwhile with their law degrees.” – Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Dean Griswold’s reasoning (31:11)
• “I'd say I went to law school because I wanted to study law. It wasn't a truthful answer when I gave it.” – RBG reflecting on what she’d say today (32:08)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–04:24: Introduction, Dean’s dinner in On the Basis of Sex, episode purpose
• 04:24–07:31: Meet the classmates—Carol Brosnahan, Flora Schnall; oddities and first impressions
• 07:31–08:54: Historical context—coeducation at Harvard Law, Dean Griswold
• 08:54–11:36: Carol’s journey—Wall Street and law school, breaking off her engagement
• 11:59–13:38: Flora’s background—music, writing, journalism, why Harvard Law
• 13:12–15:11: Social lives and “married vs. single” experiences, dinner parties
• 15:15–16:39: RBG’s focus, social habits
• 18:17–18:53: “Ladies Day” stories, classroom singling out
• 20:33–20:59: The infamous bathroom and facility issues
• 21:13–22:04: Absence of female packness; RBG’s isolation
• 23:24–24:37: Law Review selection, Alice Vogel’s story
• 25:55–26:19: Harvard Law Wives Club
• 26:51–27:22: Cooking contests; gendered traditions
• 28:22–32:19: The Dean’s dinner—multiple recollections, impact, and retrospectives
• 34:02–34:39: Teaser for Part Two—post-graduate challenges

Closing Reflections

The episode ends by foreshadowing the next chapter: the immense professional challenges these women faced after earning their law degrees. The conversation throughout reflects humor, candor, and awe at the persistence of RBG and her classmates, making this both a tribute and an ongoing investigation into the untold stories of pioneering women.

For further reading and archival materials, visit slate.com/RBG.

This summary captures the tone and content of the episode, spotlighting both major historical context and the personal recollections of RBG and her extraordinary peers.