Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts

Episode Summary: "Amicus Presents: The Class of RBG Part Two"

Date: July 25, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick (Narrator and Interviewer)

Episode Overview

This episode concludes a two-part special on the women of Harvard Law School’s Class of 1959—the cohort of Ruth Bader Ginsburg (RBG). Using first-person reflections and interviews, the show explores their parallel journeys in law, obstacles they faced, and how their various paths, big and small, intersected with Ginsburg's rise to the Supreme Court. It is a deep dive into the doors opened, slammed shut, and still locked for women lawyers of that era—and how Justice Ginsburg’s work reflected not only her own struggles but those of her contemporaries.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s Supreme Court Nomination (00:04–03:03)

• Historic Moment: President Bill Clinton’s 1993 nomination of RBG to the Supreme Court is replayed, showing her as not-yet-iconic but already symbolizing change.
  • “Judge Ginsburg's values are the very ones that represent the best in America.” — President Clinton (00:41)
• The View from Her Classmates: At the time, RBG was just one of a handful of women from her Harvard class, not a household name.

2. The Experience of Harvard Law’s Women, 1959 (03:03–06:28)

• Tiny Minority: Less than 10 women in a class of 500+.
• Immediate Reactions: Rhoda Isselbacher, hearing the radio announcement, weeps—struck by both pride and regret ("maybe that could have been me").
• Carol Brosnahan: Shares her initial hopes and realities after graduation, including lack of job opportunities due to gender and religious biases.

Notable Quote:

“A Jewish girl marrying a Catholic guy was not acceptable... So we decided we would set out on our own. In many ways, that has kind of shaped who I am...because we understood what it was like to be not quite approved of.” — Carol Brosnahan (04:33)

3. Navigating Careers and Family Roles (06:28–09:24)

• Career Stagnation: Carol’s early jobs were secretarial rather than legal, and her husband’s career progressed more smoothly.
• Motherhood & Ambition: Managing three children, feeling the career constraints of her era.
• Rare Support from Husbands: Marty Ginsburg’s support for RBG is noted as exceptional.
  • Light moment: “How do you turn on the stove?” — Jim Brosnahan calling Carol at work (08:45)
• Double Burden: Household and childcare responsibilities defaulted entirely to the women, even with careers.

4. The Barrier to Entry and Low Expectations (09:24–14:28)

• Sexism and Job Hunting: Flora Schnall faced repeated rejection after graduation; even her father urged her to settle for ‘lesser’ roles.
  • “If Ruth, who was first or second at law school, couldn’t get hired, I just had to keep looking.” — Flora Schnall (10:45)
• Breakthrough via Networking: Flora lands a counsel job under Governor Nelson Rockefeller "by sheer luck they wanted a woman” (11:14).
• Glass Ceilings: At Milbank Tweed, Flora hears flatly, “We have no women partners and I don’t think you’ll ever be a partner here.” (12:01)
• Persistence and Success: Flora becomes the first woman partner at a major firm and first female president of the American College of Real Estate Lawyers.

Memorable Exchange: (14:07)

Are you married? No.
Are you divorced? No.
Are you a widow? No.
Do you have any children? No.
“How’d you get to be so lucky?” — Flora Schnall, recalling a Social Security conversation

5. RBG’s Early Career and Hidden Hurdles (14:28–21:29)

• Obstacles to Advancement: RBG denied a major clerkship; Supreme Court Justice Frankfurter rejected her for wearing pants (16:42).
  • “I came down to interviews, but... they were concerned about how their wives would feel... even though they all had women secretaries. But that’s just the way it was.” — RBG (15:54)
• Mentorship, Conditional: Professor Gerald Gunther had to strong-arm a judge into hiring RBG, promising a ‘fallback man’ if she failed (18:05).
• Unconscious Bias: RBG reflects on persistent assumptions that women lawyers aren’t worth listening to, illustrated by the “symphony orchestra” parable showing that only blind auditions revealed true talent (20:04).

Notable Quote:

“When a man speaks, he will be listened to, where people will not expect the woman to say anything of value.” — RBG (20:04)

6. Change and Resistance Over Decades (21:29–24:35)

• Slow Shifts: Flora and Carol discuss whether women approach law differently and whether bias abated.
  • “They called me the Velvet Hammer.” — Flora Schnall (22:44)
  • Persistent bias: “You know, the male lawyer may be assertive and the woman is shrill... the feeling that somehow it’s not feminine to fight for your client.” — Carol Brosnahan (23:06)
• Cautious Optimism: Some improvements—more women in courtrooms and on benches—but biases linger, especially among older lawyers.

7. Watching Ginsburg Rise (24:35–26:59)

• Pride and Awe: For Carol Brosnahan and Flora Schnall, RBG’s achievements are personally meaningful and awe-inspiring.
  • “I want to be her when I grow up. She’s tough, she’s smart, she’s brilliant and she stands for so much in terms of what a woman can do.” — Carol Brosnahan (25:50)
  • “I’m kind of overwhelmed by it, but pleased. And I wish her the best of health for the next 10 years.” — Flora Schnall (25:39)
• Role Model to the Masses: Nostalgia and admiration for the ‘Notorious RBG’ phenomenon, especially among young girls.

8. The Broader Legacy (26:59–30:00)

• No Single ‘Type’: The 1959 women were diverse in character; pioneers by necessity, not by design.
• Impact on Ginsburg’s Work: The episode closes by crediting RBG’s opinions and dissents as carrying the collective aspirations and struggles of her classmates—fighting for gender equity, autonomy, and opportunity.
• Persistent Challenges: Family responsibilities, discrimination, and pay gaps remained barriers for decades.

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• President Clinton on RBG’s nomination: “Judge Ginsburg’s values are the very ones that represent the best in America.” (00:41)
• Carol Brosnahan on societal acceptance: “A Jewish girl marrying a Catholic guy was not acceptable...” (04:33)
• Marty Ginsburg’s support: “The most important thing I have done is enable Ruth to do what she has done.” (09:24)
• Flora Schnall’s Social Security call: “How’d you get to be so lucky?” (14:20)
• RBG on bias: “When a man speaks, he will be listened to, where people will not expect the woman to say anything of value.” (20:04)
• Carol Brosnahan on persistence: “You will hear this in the descriptions. The male lawyer may be assertive and the woman is shrill.” (23:06)
• Carol Brosnahan on Ginsburg: “I want to be her when I grow up... I just am in awe of what she’s accomplished.” (25:50)
• Flor Schnall’s wish: “I just wish men were better.” (30:08)

Notable Segment Timestamps

• 00:04–03:03: Context of RBG’s nomination; classmates’ reactions
• 03:51–09:24: Carol Brosnahan’s journey—a case study in barriers and perseverance
• 10:09–14:28: Flora Schnall’s professional path and breakthrough moments
• 15:54–21:29: RBG’s job-hunting struggles; Professor Gunther’s intervention; lingering unconscious bias
• 23:06–24:35: Modern echoes of gendered bias in law
• 24:50–26:59: Reflections on RBG’s impact and classmates’ pride
• 26:59–30:19: Broader context—the legacies of the Class of ’59 and their imprint on gender justice

Conclusion

In this intimate, multi-voice narrative, Dahlia Lithwick draws the throughline from the 1950s’ isolated female law students to RBG’s late-career stardom. The stories reveal not only the singular achievements of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but also the resilience, setbacks, luck, and quiet battles of her classmates. Their collective legacy—woven throughout Ginsburg’s jurisprudence—makes plain that true change has always been a team effort, shaped by the struggles and solidarity of many.