An Interview With Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg - Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts

Summary5 min read

Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick: Interview with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Podcast: Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts
Host: Dahlia Lithwick (A)
Guest: Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg (B)
Original Air Date: August 1, 2020
Episode Theme: Justice Ginsburg reflects on her early days at Harvard Law, gender dynamics, and community among the pioneering women law students of the 1950s.

Episode Overview

In this special episode, Dahlia Lithwick sits down with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg to discuss her experience as one of the very few women at Harvard Law School in the 1950s. The episode probes what it was like to navigate law school as a woman with a young child, how women related to each other, and tells illuminating stories from those formative years. Through firsthand reflection and recollection, Justice Ginsburg offers both personal history and insights into the challenges faced by women in law during this era. The conversation serves as part of the “Class of RBG” special series, celebrating her legacy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Impressions: Women at Harvard Law (00:58–01:44)

Justice Ginsburg describes her arrival at Harvard in 1956, where women made up a tiny minority.
Only two other women in her section; about nine women in her class out of 125 students.
Attributes a slight uptick in female admissions compared to previous years (‘a jump up from Marty’s class,’ referring to her husband).

“There were two women in my section, Destrudi and Ginny Davis, later Norton. … Our section was something like 125, but it was a jump up from Marty’s class. There were five women in his class.”
— Ginsburg, (00:58)

“They had, let's see, there were nine of us, so they had at least two in every section.”
— Ginsburg, (01:36)

2. Community or Solitude: Relationships Among Women (01:44–03:57)

Lithwick notes: contrary to expectations, women didn’t necessarily band together.
Ginsburg highlights her lack of time for socializing due to caring for her 14-month-old daughter, Jane.
Friendship and support were practical, not just social, evidenced by her close relationship with Ginny Davis, a fellow mother and Christian Scientist.
Anecdote about Ginny Davis’ approach to injury, reflecting her faith and its impact on interactions.

“For me, I had no time to waste because Jane was 14 months when I started. … So I didn’t have time for any socializing except on weekends.”
— Ginsburg, (02:22)

“[Ginny Davis] was a Christian Scientist. … I watched her once in class. She was sitting a couple of rows ahead of me and she cut her finger. … She just let it.”
— Ginsburg, (03:19–03:49)

3. Life Circumstances: Married vs. Single Women (04:04–05:30)

Host and guest discuss a visible divide: women with families versus those without.
Ginsburg was the only married woman and mother in her 1L class.
Other women’s life events (marriages, children) happened later in law school or afterwards.
Highlights how these circumstances shaped experiences and social circles.

“In my first year, I was the only one who was married and had a child. … So my first year, I was the only married woman in the class. And the only mother.”
— Ginsburg, (04:43–04:58)

4. Social Dynamics: Cooking, Study, and Gender Roles (05:32–06:49)

Lithwick references interviews with other women, noting activities like cooking dinners for male classmates.
Ginsburg recounts the “Radcliffe Cooking Contest,” an idea where women would compete by cooking meals for men, and the practice trickled into the law school.
Ginsburg expresses uncertainty over whether these activities were “fun” or enjoyable for the women involved.

“They’d have a competition and they’d have a different girl come and cook for them. And at the end of the year, they’d give a prize to the winner of the Radcliffe Cooking Contest.”
— Ginsburg, (06:14)

“Then some of the guys at the law school decided they would take up the idea that John had, but they would use the women in the class instead of the Radcliffe girls.”
— Ginsburg, (06:23)

5. Support Structures: The Law Wives Club (06:49–07:41)

The Harvard Law Wives Association, typically supporting the wives of male law students, included Ginsburg because of her marital status.
Describes the intent: help wives support their husbands through the intensity of law school.

“Most of the women that I knew were married to men, mostly in Marty’s class. … I got invited to the Law Wives association because I was a law wife. … That was to help the wives be supportive of their husbands who were engaged in this intense education at the law school.”
— Ginsburg, (06:52–07:41)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On time management and juggling roles:

“So my time was used very efficiently for classes, for studying after class, come home at 4 o'clock to take care of Jane.”
— Ginsburg, (02:27)
On being the only mother:

“My first year, I was the only married woman in the class. And the only mother…”
— Ginsburg, (04:51)
On gendered expectations:

“There was in those years the Harvard Law Wives Club … That was to help the wives be supportive of their husbands who were engaged in this intense education at the law school.”
— Ginsburg, (06:52–07:41)

Timestamps for Key Segments

[00:58] – Ginsburg on arriving at Harvard and female classmates
[02:22] – On time constraints as a student-mother
[03:19–03:49] – Anecdote about Ginny Davis’s Christian Scientist response
[04:43–04:58] – Only married woman and mother in the first-year class
[06:01–06:23] – Story of the Radcliffe Cooking Contest and its adoption at law school
[06:52–07:41] – Harvard Law Wives Club and its supporting role

Tone and Style

The conversation is reflective, collegial, and personal, revealing Justice Ginsburg’s characteristic blend of humility, wit, and clarity. She shares recollections with gentle humor and clear-eyed recognition of the challenges women faced, especially those who broke multiple barriers at once—as students, wives, and mothers.

Summary

This episode offers a candid look at the realities of being a pathbreaking woman in law school, as recalled by Ruth Bader Ginsburg herself. It’s a testament to the personal and institutional hurdles women faced in the legal profession—and to Ginsburg’s relentless focus and self-discipline. The stories and insights here are invaluable for anyone interested in law, gender, or the evolution of professional spaces in America.

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Transcript19 lines

[00:06]
A
Hi, it's Dahlia Lithwick. Today we have a preview of the extended interview I did with Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg for the Class of RBG Special series that you heard last week. If you want to listen to the full interview, you've got to sign up for Slate Plus. As a Slate plus member, you'll get bonus segments with Mark Joseph Stern on future Amicus episodes, and you won't hear any more ads on any Slate podcasts. And perhaps most importantly, you will be supporting the work that we do here on Amicus. So head on over to slate.com amicusplus to sign up. Now here's a preview of the full interview with Justice Ginsburg. You're all arriving at Harvard in 1956. Did you even see women when you were first sort of moving in and settling in and walking around, or was it just a sea of men?
[00:58]
B
There were two women in my section, Destrudi and Ginny Davis, later Norton. So when I went to class, there were the two other women in the class. And then I think our section was something like 125, but it was a jump up from Marty's class. There were five women in his class. There were more the first year that they took women.
[01:30]
A
And did they deliberately divide you into different sections? Like, did they want to have one or two women?
[01:36]
B
Yeah, they had, let's see, there were nine of us, so they had at least two in every section.
[01:44]
A
One of the things that was interesting, I think it was Carol who said in her interview that we were all oddities was the word she used. We were all sort of outliers. And I think initially when we started this project, we thought that you'd all clump together and be like a pack. And I was remembering when I started at Stanford law School in 1992, all the women were just in a pack. But it doesn't seem as though that necessarily organically happened. You didn't kind of travel all the women kind of having each other's backs, right? It was a little more complicated.
[02:23]
B
Well, for me, I had no time to waste because Jane was 14 months when I started. So my time was used very efficiently for classes, for studying after class, come home at 4 o' clock to take care of Jane. So I didn't have time for any socializing except on weekends. So the only person among the women, for a time I was close to Jenny Davis. And that continued after law school. It may have been. I don't. Well, for one thing, she was in my section and she was just a Lovely person. She was a Christian Scientist. So when Marty had cancer his third year, our second year, she visited him in the hospital a few times. And I was wondering how that would be for her because I watched her once in class. She was sitting a couple of rows ahead of me and she cut her finger. She had paper cut and her finger was bleeding, and I wanted to go over and blot it for her, but she didn't. She just let it.
[03:49]
A
Just bleeding onto the desk.
[03:51]
B
Yeah.
[03:53]
A
And so you weren't sure how she would be when Marty was in the hospital?
[03:57]
B
Because. Because reacting to a hospital.
[04:04]
A
Can you talk about. There was such a dividing line in the interviews between the people who came with children and spouses and the people who kind of. Some of the women that we talked to were having. Cooking dinner for all the men in the class, you know, described. Oh, you know, it was great. I would get notes because, you know, all the men were falling over themselves to help me out. Was that the demarcation point between the women is the people who sort of were all business because they had other things going on and the people who were a little bit maybe there to look around.
[04:43]
B
In my first year, I was the only one who was married and had a child. I think Carol. Carol. I think she got married. Did she get married while she was in law school or after? And Alice got married at the end of her first year. So my first year, I was the only married woman in the class. And the only mother because Rhoda Solon or Rhoda Isselbacher took her first year at Penn, and then she was in our second year.
[05:25]
A
So when she came, she was married. She was married, but she wasn't in your 1L class.
[05:31]
B
Right.
[05:32]
A
And so when Carol describes. In some of the interviews, she describes sitting on the steps and doing crossword puzzles or some of the women describe. There was a stunning amount of. I think. Was it BJ and Carol and Flora who were all cooking dinners for the men who were just delighting in the free meals? It just seemed like they were in a really different world than you were.
[06:01]
B
I think that's. So the cooking began with a. I don't know where John Kaplan went to law school, but he was on the Stanford faculty for years. It was called the Radcliffe Cooking Contest. So he and his roommates got this idea. They'd have a competition and they'd have a different girl come and cook for them. And at the end of the year, they'd give a prize to the winner of the Radcliffe Cooking Contest. Then some of the guys at the law school decided they would take up the idea that John had, but they would use the women in the class instead of the Radcliffe girls.
[06:49]
A
And this was fun for the women.
[06:52]
B
I don't know. I don't know. There was in those years the Harvard Law Wives Club. So most of the women that I knew were married to men, mostly in Marty's class. And I got invited to the Low Wives association because I was a law wife. But that was to help the wives be supportive of their husbands who were engaged in this intense education at the law school.
[07:41]
A
To listen to the full interview, Sign up for Slate Plus@slate.com amicusplus that slate.com amicus plus.