Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Episode Summary

Episode: Behind the Scenes of "The Class of RBG"

Date: August 15, 2020
Host(s): June Thomas (Slate), with guests Dahlia Lithwick (host, Amicus), and Molly Olmstead (Slate staff writer)

Overview

This episode provides an in-depth, behind-the-scenes look at "The Class of RBG"—a major reporting project and two-part podcast investigating the remarkable women of Harvard Law School’s Class of 1959, which included Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Dahlia Lithwick and Molly Olmstead join host June Thomas to discuss the inspiration, reporting challenges, emotional impact, and unique editorial decisions that shaped the final project, with anecdotes from interviewing Justice Ginsburg herself and other members (and families) of the class.

Episode Breakdown

1. The Genesis of "The Class of RBG"

[00:55–01:56]

• The idea originated with Alia Smith (wife of Dan Kois and an attorney), who, after seeing the biopic On the Basis of Sex, wondered: “What happened to those other nine women in Harvard Law’s class of 1959?”
• Notably, there were only 10 women among 500+ men in the class. The infamous “dinner at Griswold’s house,” where each woman explained "why they took a slot from a man," provided a starting point.

“Thank God, a woman watching that said, what happened to those other nine women? And we were off.” — Dahlia Lithwick [01:46]

2. Investigative Challenges & Sleuthing

[02:09–06:31]

• Molly Olmstead recounts difficulty identifying RBG's classmates:
  • No online list—she physically visited Georgetown Law’s library to photograph yearbooks.
  • Used alumni networks and even posed as an alum to access directories.
• The project’s complexity came from name changes, students transferring or dropping out, and contradictory recollections.
• Tracking down Trudy, a classmate not listed in yearbooks, required Justice Ginsburg’s help and creative research.

“So there’s a lot of me pretending to be people who I’m not. And then we were able to find her married name from that and track her down.”— Molly Olmstead [04:50]

• The list of living members changed throughout reporting because of but was stabilized before going to publication.
  • Only two classmates (besides Justice Ginsburg) agreed to be recorded.
  • Others (or their families) contributed through interviews or off-tape conversations.

3. Ethical Decisions on Interviewing & Protectiveness

[06:31–09:26]

• Molly describes the tension between journalism’s impulse to secure interviews and respecting the vulnerability of elderly sources.
  • Prioritized “do no harm,” sometimes backing off when pressure would stress the interviewees.
• Dahlia notes the “fragility of memory” and the risks of pressing elderly participants for details they felt unsure about.

“As a human being, like, it’s way more important to me that I do nothing to pressure these women beyond something they’re comfortable with.” — Molly Olmstead [08:31]

4. Securing and Conducting the Justice Ginsburg Interview

[09:42–11:40]

• Reaching RBG was described as a “Hail Mary”—sometimes the press office says yes, often not.
• This interview was unique: Ginsburg seemed personally invested, sharing fresh stories and warmly crediting her classmates.
• The context (not a typical RBG profile) led to novel insights and emotional resonance.

“She was having memories in real time and saying things that she hadn’t said before… having a spotlight on the women in her class... really jibes with how she tries to think about her own history.” — Dahlia Lithwick [10:34]

5. Emotional Weight of the Project

[11:40–17:38]

• Both reporters were deeply moved throughout, especially amid news of Ginsburg’s fragile health and with COVID-19 looming.
• The act of simultaneously archiving and honoring a rapidly vanishing generation felt pressing and bittersweet.
• Molly recalls being moved by the pride and emotion of the classmates’ families, and Dalia by the powerful moment of being with RBG in court, just before the pandemic hit.

“I think we cried every step of the way... there is so much of this project that is about, you know, frustrations and lives lived and roads not taken.” — Dahlia Lithwick [12:15]
“I peaked today. This is it for me.” — Molly Olmstead, on the day of the RBG interview [18:35]

6. The Living Classmates and Their Stories

[17:00–20:29]

• Many living classmates were still fiercely active and opinionated; Trudy, for example, was often “too busy protesting” to talk.
• There’s appreciation for their ongoing activism and a realization that their stories go far beyond RBG’s alone.
• RBG favored engaging with Molly, the young reporter, sending encouragement and advice during the interview.

“The only person that Justice Ginsburg was talking to was Molly, because... she really deeply feels... some of the problems she’s been fighting her whole life are still in existence.” — Dahlia Lithwick [19:13]

7. Age, Memory, and the Impact of COVID-19

[20:29–23:10]

• The pandemic heightened a sense of urgency and poignancy about capturing elders’ stories.
• Dahlia emphasizes the danger of losing whole generations of experience and wisdom to the virus, and society’s tendency to overlook that loss.
• Covering the courts is unique in the high number of elderly jurists, adding extra reverence for their contributions.

8. The Creative Tension: Podcast vs. Print

[23:10–27:20]

• The project grew organically—first as print, then a podcast, each with differing constraints:
  • Podcasting required selective use of voices (not everyone could or wanted to participate on tape).
  • There were “competing needs,” such as balancing the richness of the RBG interview with giving equal space to other women.
  • Both forms served as “second chances” to bring in material not used elsewhere.

“There was never a time when there wasn’t a script for the podcast that was evolving, also text that was evolving. And those things were not always in conversation. And I would say, frankly, it’s been really interesting to do this on multiple platforms and get an email from someone who loved every second of it, but didn’t know there was a podcast or who consumed the podcast and had no idea there was a print part.” — Dahlia Lithwick [24:53]

Notable Quotes

• On the emotional weight:
  “I don’t know if we like wept into our actual keyboards and shorted our keyboards, but I think there is so much of this project that is about, you know, frustrations and lives lived and roads not taken…” — Dahlia Lithwick [12:56]

• On interviewing elderly women:
  “As a human being, like, it’s way more important to me that I do nothing to pressure these women beyond something that they’re comfortable with.” — Molly Olmstead [08:31]

• On Justice Ginsburg’s humility:
  “We stand on the shoulders of giants. She’s so meticulous to credit the people along the way…” — Dahlia Lithwick [11:17]

• On generational loss in the pandemic:
  “We were just gonna, you know, say goodbye to a generation of people in their 70s and 80s and be almost nonchalant about the death toll.” — Dahlia Lithwick [21:19]

• On the differences between media forms:
  “You don’t seamlessly migrate back and forth from a podcast to a print piece. They are two different entities.” — Dahlia Lithwick [25:50]

Key Timestamps

• 00:55 – How the idea for “The Class of RBG” was born
• 02:09 – The detective work to identify the classmates
• 04:49 – Tracking down elusive subjects with creative research
• 06:56 – Navigating ethical challenges and interviewee comfort
• 09:42 – How the RBG interview came about and its uniqueness
• 12:15 – Emotional impact on the reportorial team
• 15:13 – Talking with families and the emotional resonance
• 17:06 – Stories from the vibrant, living classmates
• 20:29 – Thoughts on reporting across generations and during COVID
• 23:29 – The push and pull between podcast and print storytelling

Memorable Moments

• The “James Bond” phase of reporting, as Molly sneaked into libraries and alumni directories [05:16]
• Justice Ginsburg correcting the reporting team’s list of classmates, demonstrating her formidable memory [04:22]
• Real-time emotion: Team members describe crying over letters, phone calls, and fresh interviews [12:15, 15:13]
• Trudy’s activism: Calling during the New Hampshire primary, too busy protesting to talk [17:00]
• RBG’s focus on the next generation: “The only person that Justice Ginsburg was talking to was Molly...” [19:13]

Conclusion

This episode is a compelling look at journalistic process, ethical considerations, and the indescribable emotional impact of documenting unique lives—delivered with the warmth, humor, and reverence of the reporting team. It explores not only RBG’s legacy but the importance of capturing stories before they’re lost, especially in a time when entire generations are at heightened risk. The discussion underscores the different demands of podcasting and print, the intricacies of interviewing elderly sources, and the enduring significance of the women who paved the way alongside—and sometimes in the shadow of—Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

For more:
Read the "Class of RBG" at Slate.com and listen to both podcast episodes wherever you find Amicus.