Behind the Scenes of "The Class of RBG"

Summary

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Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Episode Summary

Episode: Behind the Scenes of "The Class of RBG"

Date: August 15, 2020
Host(s): June Thomas (Slate), with guests Dahlia Lithwick (host, Amicus), and Molly Olmstead (Slate staff writer)

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Overview

This episode provides an in-depth, behind-the-scenes look at "The Class of RBG"—a major reporting project and two-part podcast investigating the remarkable women of Harvard Law School’s Class of 1959, which included Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Dahlia Lithwick and Molly Olmstead join host June Thomas to discuss the inspiration, reporting challenges, emotional impact, and unique editorial decisions that shaped the final project, with anecdotes from interviewing Justice Ginsburg herself and other members (and families) of the class.

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Episode Breakdown

1. The Genesis of "The Class of RBG"

[00:55–01:56]

• The idea originated with Alia Smith (wife of Dan Kois and an attorney), who, after seeing the biopic On the Basis of Sex, wondered: “What happened to those other nine women in Harvard Law’s class of 1959?”
• Notably, there were only 10 women among 500+ men in the class. The infamous “dinner at Griswold’s house,” where each woman explained "why they took a slot from a man," provided a starting point.

“Thank God, a woman watching that said, what happened to those other nine women? And we were off.” — Dahlia Lithwick [01:46]

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2. Investigative Challenges & Sleuthing

[02:09–06:31]

• Molly Olmstead recounts difficulty identifying RBG's classmates:
  • No online list—she physically visited Georgetown Law’s library to photograph yearbooks.
  • Used alumni networks and even posed as an alum to access directories.
• The project’s complexity came from name changes, students transferring or dropping out, and contradictory recollections.
• Tracking down Trudy, a classmate not listed in yearbooks, required Justice Ginsburg’s help and creative research.

“So there’s a lot of me pretending to be people who I’m not. And then we were able to find her married name from that and track her down.”— Molly Olmstead [04:50]

• The list of living members changed throughout reporting because of but was stabilized before going to publication.
  • Only two classmates (besides Justice Ginsburg) agreed to be recorded.
  • Others (or their families) contributed through interviews or off-tape conversations.

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3. Ethical Decisions on Interviewing & Protectiveness

[06:31–09:26]

• Molly describes the tension between journalism’s impulse to secure interviews and respecting the vulnerability of elderly sources.
  • Prioritized “do no harm,” sometimes backing off when pressure would stress the interviewees.
• Dahlia notes the “fragility of memory” and the risks of pressing elderly participants for details they felt unsure about.

“As a human being, like, it’s way more important to me that I do nothing to pressure these women beyond something they’re comfortable with.” — Molly Olmstead [08:31]

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4. Securing and Conducting the Justice Ginsburg Interview

[09:42–11:40]

• Reaching RBG was described as a “Hail Mary”—sometimes the press office says yes, often not.
• This interview was unique: Ginsburg seemed personally invested, sharing fresh stories and warmly crediting her classmates.
• The context (not a typical RBG profile) led to novel insights and emotional resonance.

“She was having memories in real time and saying things that she hadn’t said before… having a spotlight on the women in her class... really jibes with how she tries to think about her own history.” — Dahlia Lithwick [10:34]

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5. Emotional Weight of the Project

[11:40–17:38]

• Both reporters were deeply moved throughout, especially amid news of Ginsburg’s fragile health and with COVID-19 looming.
• The act of simultaneously archiving and honoring a rapidly vanishing generation felt pressing and bittersweet.
• Molly recalls being moved by the pride and emotion of the classmates’ families, and Dalia by the powerful moment of being with RBG in court, just before the pandemic hit.

“I think we cried every step of the way... there is so much of this project that is about, you know, frustrations and lives lived and roads not taken.” — Dahlia Lithwick [12:15]
“I peaked today. This is it for me.” — Molly Olmstead, on the day of the RBG interview [18:35]

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6. The Living Classmates and Their Stories

[17:00–20:29]

• Many living classmates were still fiercely active and opinionated; Trudy, for example, was often “too busy protesting” to talk.
• There’s appreciation for their ongoing activism and a realization that their stories go far beyond RBG’s alone.
• RBG favored engaging with Molly, the young reporter, sending encouragement and advice during the interview.

“The only person that Justice Ginsburg was talking to was Molly, because... she really deeply feels... some of the problems she’s been fighting her whole life are still in existence.” — Dahlia Lithwick [19:13]

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7. Age, Memory, and the Impact of COVID-19

[20:29–23:10]

• The pandemic heightened a sense of urgency and poignancy about capturing elders’ stories.
• Dahlia emphasizes the danger of losing whole generations of experience and wisdom to the virus, and society’s tendency to overlook that loss.
• Covering the courts is unique in the high number of elderly jurists, adding extra reverence for their contributions.

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8. The Creative Tension: Podcast vs. Print

[23:10–27:20]

• The project grew organically—first as print, then a podcast, each with differing constraints:
  • Podcasting required selective use of voices (not everyone could or wanted to participate on tape).
  • There were “competing needs,” such as balancing the richness of the RBG interview with giving equal space to other women.
  • Both forms served as “second chances” to bring in material not used elsewhere.

“There was never a time when there wasn’t a script for the podcast that was evolving, also text that was evolving. And those things were not always in conversation. And I would say, frankly, it’s been really interesting to do this on multiple platforms and get an email from someone who loved every second of it, but didn’t know there was a podcast or who consumed the podcast and had no idea there was a print part.” — Dahlia Lithwick [24:53]

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Notable Quotes

• On the emotional weight:
  “I don’t know if we like wept into our actual keyboards and shorted our keyboards, but I think there is so much of this project that is about, you know, frustrations and lives lived and roads not taken…” — Dahlia Lithwick [12:56]

• On interviewing elderly women:
  “As a human being, like, it’s way more important to me that I do nothing to pressure these women beyond something that they’re comfortable with.” — Molly Olmstead [08:31]

• On Justice Ginsburg’s humility:
  “We stand on the shoulders of giants. She’s so meticulous to credit the people along the way…” — Dahlia Lithwick [11:17]

• On generational loss in the pandemic:
  “We were just gonna, you know, say goodbye to a generation of people in their 70s and 80s and be almost nonchalant about the death toll.” — Dahlia Lithwick [21:19]

• On the differences between media forms:
  “You don’t seamlessly migrate back and forth from a podcast to a print piece. They are two different entities.” — Dahlia Lithwick [25:50]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:55 – How the idea for “The Class of RBG” was born
• 02:09 – The detective work to identify the classmates
• 04:49 – Tracking down elusive subjects with creative research
• 06:56 – Navigating ethical challenges and interviewee comfort
• 09:42 – How the RBG interview came about and its uniqueness
• 12:15 – Emotional impact on the reportorial team
• 15:13 – Talking with families and the emotional resonance
• 17:06 – Stories from the vibrant, living classmates
• 20:29 – Thoughts on reporting across generations and during COVID
• 23:29 – The push and pull between podcast and print storytelling

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Memorable Moments

• The “James Bond” phase of reporting, as Molly sneaked into libraries and alumni directories [05:16]
• Justice Ginsburg correcting the reporting team’s list of classmates, demonstrating her formidable memory [04:22]
• Real-time emotion: Team members describe crying over letters, phone calls, and fresh interviews [12:15, 15:13]
• Trudy’s activism: Calling during the New Hampshire primary, too busy protesting to talk [17:00]
• RBG’s focus on the next generation: “The only person that Justice Ginsburg was talking to was Molly...” [19:13]

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Conclusion

This episode is a compelling look at journalistic process, ethical considerations, and the indescribable emotional impact of documenting unique lives—delivered with the warmth, humor, and reverence of the reporting team. It explores not only RBG’s legacy but the importance of capturing stories before they’re lost, especially in a time when entire generations are at heightened risk. The discussion underscores the different demands of podcasting and print, the intricacies of interviewing elderly sources, and the enduring significance of the women who paved the way alongside—and sometimes in the shadow of—Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

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For more:
Read the "Class of RBG" at Slate.com and listen to both podcast episodes wherever you find Amicus.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hi, I'm June Thomas, senior managing producer of Slate Podcasts and a co host of Working a podcast about the creative process. I recently recorded a segment on Working with Amicus's own Dahlia Lithwick and Slate staff writer Molly Olmstead and about their big Class of RBG project, which you heard on Amicus last month. And I wanted to share that segment with you today. You'll get to hear about how the project was put together over the past year, what it was like to interview Justice Ginsburg and other great behind the scenes stories. Here's our conversation. Dahlia Lithwick writes about the courts and the law for Slate and hosts the podcast Amicus. Hi, Dalia.

[A]

Hi, June.

[B]

And Molly Olmstead is a Slate staff writer. Hi, Molly.

[C]

Hi, Dune.

[B]

Okay, let's start from the beginning. Where did the idea for the Class of RBG originate?

[A]

Dan Kois wife is the short answer.

[B]

That's Alia Smith, who's an attorney herself. Where did she come up with it?

[A]

She watched the movie, the biopic on the basis of Sex. There's this famous scene that everybody talks about. Irwin Griswold has all. It's 1956, it's the autumn, and all the women in the class of 59 at Harvard, all of them are invited to his home to explain, one by one, painstakingly why they took a slot from a man at Harvard Law school. There were 10 women in the class, including RBG, 500 plus men. And they had to justify it.

[B]

So.

[A]

So I think that the genesis was, thank God, a woman watching that said, what happened to those other nine women? And we were off.

[B]

Amazing. So, okay, great idea. How did you move from great idea to what became this huge piece and two part podcast series? Molly, where did you begin?

[C]

Well, the first step was trying to figure out who these women were, which there was nothing online that had a list of these women. So I had to sneak into Georgetown's law library.

[A]

Here's the felony part of the story. Let's get it out of the way.

[C]

We had an intern at the time. I brought her along because she was an undergraduate student, I believe. And so we just kind of were hoping that if we got caught that I would at least like have someone to point to to be like, look, it's all fine. But yeah, ultimately I just sort of like walked in with confidence and no one really stopped me. So we got these yearbooks and I sort of, you know, took some photos, wrote down some names, and then the rest is just sort of like standard stuff. We just. We were just trying to figure out through, like, the Internet, mostly who these women were. And it wasn't. It wasn't super straightforward, but, you know, we eventually got there.

[B]

Can you remind me how many of the women of the class of 59 are still alive?

[C]

Yes. So we had Carol and Flora, who were the two who talked to us, obviously Justice Ginsburg, and then two other women who, for whatever reasons, were just not comfortable being in the audio part of this project. So that was Betty Jean and Trudy. So four women other than Justice Ginsburg.

[B]

And so the other five have passed away. But you spoke with their family, their survivors.

[C]

That's right. Mostly their children.

[B]

I know there was so much hard work involved in that. In the thing that you kind of boiled down to standard reporting procedures. Were there any that were just really hard that it. That it actually took some serious sleuthing to track down?

[C]

Well, Trudy's the really tricky one because she was not in that 58 or 59 yearbook. So we really did not find out that she was part of this class until we actually met up. Well, actually, I think we emailed Justice Ginsburg, and we got back this reply being like, I think you missed one. And then. So I had to scramble. I was so. I mean, I was embarrassed, but mostly I was just, like, in awe of this woman and her just remarkable memory.

[B]

So we.

[C]

It did take a while to find out who she was, but ultimately we had someone on staff who went to the same undergraduate university she went to. And so I was able to use his login information to get to some sort of alumni directory. So there's a lot of me pretending to be people who I'm not. And then we were able to find her married name from that and track her down.

[A]

But, yeah, Molly's like the James Bond of reporting. Like, she was just. It was amazing. She was so dogged. And then maybe it's just worth saying explicitly that part of the reason it was complicated. I don't know about you, Molly, but I keep getting emails from people that say, like, well, my mother was in that class, and she says there were nine people. There were 10 people there. And the number kept changing because people dropped in, people dropped out. There were people we know. One of our women transferred as a 2L, RBG, left as a 3L. Trudy dropped out after her first year. So. And their names were changing. And so there was just, you know, it was nothing that we were, I think, anticipating in terms of. At no point in this project was there, like, a Stable number of women with consistent names. And that was just very, very tricky. And that was where Molly was just a mad woman. Like, she just wouldn't let it go. And some of these folks, you know, were anxious about talking on the phone, Very anxious about talking on the phone. And Mol, Molly, just unbelievable ability to just persist, but also just, like, absolutely generously protect them.

[B]

Molly, as you mentioned, we don't hear from everyone on the show. On the podcast. Some of them didn't want to be recorded, I imagine, just because I know that in audio, if you don't have the voices, you don't have the story. People are always pushing for that. I understand that at some point, that protectiveness actually kind of had you pushing back against other members of the team. Can you talk about how that worked out for you?

[C]

Yeah, I spent a lot of time thinking about this because, I mean, I come from. I went to a more, I guess, traditional journalism school that in some ways, I feel like some of the professors I had would have said that I was being, in some ways, not a great journalist by making these decisions. But I felt like this project was so different from some of the ones that are, you know, maybe about something that is a little bit more political or has some element where you have to really think hard about making sure, you know, you're doing everything right ethically. This one, you know, these are the stories of these women. They're intimate, they're very personal, and they're doing us a favor by talking to us. And, I mean, granted, yes, it's nice for them, for the most part, to have their stories out there, but I also was aware that, you know, these women were. They were giving me their time. The family members were giving these memories that were really valuable to them. And I just. I talked about this a lot with Susan, who edited me in this project. And there were times when it. You know, it would have been great to really push for something, but we ultimately decided it just wasn't worth alienating one of these women. And, you know, in journalism school, there's a lot of talking about ethics, but. And one of the things they talk about is do no harm. And I feel like sometimes we can forget about that one. And, I mean, I personally had to sort of think of myself as a journalist, as a person, as a human being, sort of separate those sometimes and think, you know, as a human being, like, it's way more important to me that I do nothing to pressure these women beyond something that they're comfortable with.

[A]

You know, I think one of the things that Molly kept reminding us was the fragility of memory. And some of the women who talked to Molly, you know, are still alive but didn't want to be recorded, were just really uncertain that they remembered things. And I just think, you know, you get this idea, this zealous idea, like, we're building an archive. We're building a time capsule. Like, this should have been done 20 years ago, but damn it, like, let's get it all down now. And I think what Molly kept reminding us, and, like, for me, it was so profoundly important to be reminded that, like, don't press people into putting memories, like, in audio that they're not comfortable with.

[B]

Yeah. Dalia. A big part of the audio, certainly, and also of the text piece, was the interview that you did with Justice Ginsburg. How did you secure an interview with her.

[A]

That was a Hail Mary? I mean, with Justice Ginsburg, sometimes you have to, you know, go through the press office and they pass it on to her. And sometimes you get a yes, and sometimes you get a no. And it was really interesting because she. She immediately said she would participate. And it really struck me after that this is unlike most interviews she does and that, you know, I've done one with her, for instance, when Glamour made her Woman of the Year several years ago, where she, you know, has a few things that she says, and she says them frequently. And I think she loved this project because it was totally different. And one of the things we noticed when we sat down with her was that she was having memories in real time and saying things that she hadn't said before. I think one of the things that was really striking is she had not done a lot of interviews necessarily prompted by, again, this is Molly's research. But, you know, to be able to say, Flora told us about this lady's day, you know, like, we were able to ask her about things that were not necessarily top of mind for her. And so I think, as a consequence, both for us and for her, it was really a lot of fresh material. And that, I think, was one of the things that made it really interesting for her. I think. One thing I would say about Justice Ginsburg generally, as she always says she said at her confirmation hearing, she said when she was sworn in, you know, we stand on the shoulders of giants. She's so meticulous to credit the people along the way. And I think for her, having a spotlight on the women in her class and making the point that this was not just about her, it was about everyone, I think really jibes with how she tries to think about her own history.

[B]

This is projection on my part. But as I was both listening to the, the podcast episodes and reading the text, like it's really moving. And, you know, I'm not going to say I was weeping, but like, I was definitely kind of choking up as I was reading this. Like, did that happen to you? Or was there something about the kind of the distance of the reporting project or, you know, having been in the presence of Justice Ginsburg, like, can you talk about how emotional or not it was for you to. I'll maybe start with you, Dalia.

[A]

Oh, I think we cried every step of the way. And you know, as we're recording this, I mean, we're still finishing part two of the podcast and still writing. And in the last week we've had news that Justice Ginsburg's cancer has metastasized and that she was treated again this spring. So you can't help but have this split screen of we're doing this deep reportorial, what we think of as a time capsule or an archive, but also just so profoundly aware that at bottom, she's 87, she's a three time cancer survivor. She's been hospitalized several times this year alone. So that's always in some sense colored everything and more so in the past few weeks. But I think even before the sort of immediate sense that her health is fragile, I think it was such an emotional project. I'm just thinking, I mean, Molly can talk about it as well, but you know, the letter that we got from one of the women, Alice, her daughters shared the letter that Justice Ginsburg wrote when their mother died. And I think we sobbed like, I don't know if we like wept into our actual keyboards and shorted our keyboards, but I think there is so much of this project that is about, you know, frustrations and lives lived and roads not taken and, you know, husbands who were not supportive the way Marty Ginsburg was supportive and just the entirety of, of these extraordinary lives, how much they adored her, how much they were like secretly terrified of her work ethic. I mean, all of that, it was very, very, very emotional. And I don't know, I think often of the fact that most of the women people who helmed this project were women and how that inflected on it. And I think before I let Molly answer, I would also say that the day that we went and interviewed rbg, Sara Burningham, who's my podcast producer, Susan Matthews, who edited the whole project, Molly, who researched the whole project, and me and I Think for the four of us being in the court, being in a room with rbg, it was, as it turns out, weeks before COVID shut the building down and work down. I think that was one of the most intense experiences of my career.

[B]

Molly, can you talk about how emotional this project has been for you and also how it was to be there for that interview?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, sometimes I got even more of an emotional punch from talking to these family members. I mean, one of these women died in 2011, one in 2015, one in 2018. So some of them, I think, felt the deaths felt a little fresh to some of these family members. And so there would be one. I think there was one or two times where, as I was interviewing the, you know, children of these people, they would choke up and, you know, cry on the phone with me. And, like, it was hard not to feel that deeply. My. I mean, my own mom, she. She's a lawyer. So a lot of me, like, I kind of felt some of that own pride in her that they were feeling in their mothers. And it was just. I think I just felt this intense loyalty to these women who had died in a way that was. Went a little bit beyond, I guess, sort of normal professional boundaries. But. So there was. There was a lot of that. And then there was also. You know, we started this project well before everything happened with this coronavirus, but, you know, we picked it back up later in the pandemic. I mean, it was an emotionally challenging time for everyone. I think I was really personally struggling with work. It just felt like it was all doom and gloom all the time, and then just sort of emotionally, you know, switch tacks, and you're looking at these amazing lives, and it has nothing to do with the news. And, you know, I was talking to Trudy a lot in that time, who's just an insanely inspirational woman, and it was just like.

[B]

I remember sometimes she seemed to be, like, she couldn't talk because she was, like, just busy with activist activities, right?

[C]

Yes, yes. Like, one time, I mean, the first time I called her, I called her, and I was like, hi. Like, I'm trying to find. And then she just cut me off, and she was like, I'm too busy. Like, I've got all this stuff going on.

[A]

New Hampshire primary. Right. It was. And she was like, how dare you have the temerity to bother me, Me in the middle of the primary? And it was such a great. We were so. Oh, my God, we found Trudy. Molly's calling Trudy. And Then she's like, are you nuts? Calling me today? And it was such a great reminder that, like, she's actually busier than we were.

[B]

Right?

[C]

I mean, she's amazing, like, all the time. She'd be like, I'm sorry. I don't have any time for you today. I have to go protest. Which was just. Just amazing. So there was. I mean, that, on its own, just, like, was. It was a sort of different kind of. Like, I just felt so much like, almost joy and relief, and I mixed sort of a cocktail of weird emotions. But I felt. I was just so thankful for this project during that time. And then, of course, actually going to meet Justice Ginsburg herself was just such an experience. And I know this is gonna sound as if I'm boasting of something, but I'm really not. Dahlia had all these, like, you know, wonderful, insightful questions, and she was, you know, just, like, masterfully handling this interview with this, frankly, very intimidating woman because she speaks so slow that it's actually. I mean, I just, like, was in awe of Dalia's skill in handling this interview. But Dalia told me afterwards that Justice Ginsburg has this really soft spot for young women. And so every once in a while, she. Well, not every once in a while, pretty consistently, she would field a question from Dalia, and then as she was responding to the question, turn, and then just look at me straight in the eyes, especially if she was giving some sort of advice or something like that. And I remember being like, this is. I peaked today. This is it for me. So that was, I mean, maybe one of the best days of my life.

[A]

And Molly is, to be perfectly clear, completely soft selling this. It was like no one was in the room. Like, there was a producer, an editor, me and Molly and RBG and the folks there at the court, who are wonderful, by the way, who are staffing her. And the only person that Justice Ginsburg was talking to was Molly, because I think she really deeply feels. And she talked about this, you know, that some of the problems that she's been fighting her whole life are still in existence. And she talked about unconsciousness, bias, and she talked about, you know, barriers for women. And I just felt as though there was something so magic in the fact that she was basically like, ugh, Dalia, you're old. Like, I've talked to you before. Get out. But you, Molly, you are my people. And it was no exaggeration, because we all clocked it. It was really powerful that it felt as though having someone in the room who was, you know, a kind of brand new reporter who had po her heart and soul into tracking down these histories. Like, that was the thing for the justice. It was amazing.

[B]

That's so sweet. This is maybe a weird question, but as reporters, perhaps you're an exception, Dalia, because you focus so much on the Supreme Court and the law, but we don't tend to have a lot of interaction with octogenarians or even just generally older people. Were you kind of aware of talking to these women, the women who are still alive, the ones that you talk with, of talking to them differently, even though, like, looking at their bios, they're all like, been on the bench for 40 years activists, like, they're by no means sort of, you know, they may be physically frail. I don't know. I know certainly one of them is, but, like, it's clearly their minds are amazing. But were you just aware of, like, we all have this weird way of talking to older people. Like, how much did that come into things, if at all?

[A]

It's funny, I mean, I'm curious what Molly's gonna say to this, but I would just say this is another way that Covid changed everything. And for me, the age thing was a big part of it because we just saw, you know, particularly in New York in March and April, this sense of an entire generation, you know, day after day, someone in their 70s or 80s was dying. @ my kid's school, we were getting a notice about someone's grandpar every single day. And it just made it so poignant for me that part of, quote, unquote, coming to terms with the virus was that we were just gonna, you know, say goodbye to a generation of people in their 70s and 80s and be almost nonchalant about the death toll. So for me, I think, you know, I've long said that the thing I love most about covering the courts is the number of 70 and 80 year old judges. I' know they serve for life. Article 3 judges. They don't become irrelevant, you know, like you do in Hollywood when you're 46. And so I think that it made me so very mindful and solicitous that we are dealing with a generation that is so precious and so fragile because of the virus, and that is almost invisible because, you know, the virus is wiping them out and we're not clocking it because we think their time has passed somehow. And so that made me really deeply saddened by the fact that we're not even aware of these extraordinary lives that we're losing. And so that was a very long and somber answer, but I do think it's one of the ways that Covid colored everything for.

[B]

Me. Yeah, this was a two episode podcast series as well as a text package. You're a podcast host, Dalia. I know from the beginning of your time at Slate, Molly, that you are also a big podcast person. Did the podcast and the text have different needs? Did those needs ever compete? Maybe?

[C]

Molly? Well, I mean, yes, they felt like two very different enterprises. I think one of the major distinctions that, I mean, it solidified over time, but it was pretty clear early on was that we were never going to be able to represent all of these women in the podcast part of it. And there was a brief period where I almost felt protective. But then, you know, I knew that we were never gonna be able to get all those voices in. It would just be too cluttered. But then there was also the element of the Justice Ginsburg interview. And I know that there was a lot of discussion early on because it was just such so much gold, and we just wanted to include so much of it. And, I mean, we knew that that was not gonna in any way weigh down the print piece, but with audio, there's so many more limitations. And so we had so many discussions early on where we were talking about how we could, you know, show what a remarkable full interview this was without sort of downplaying the other women involved. And I think, you know, Dalia and Sara, who produced the audio piece, like, they. I mean, they just handled it so well because they came to realize that there was like a really neat. To include the women who are alive and Justice Ginsburg, without making it too much about any one.

[A]

Person. We also, I think, initially conceived of this. Am I right, Molly? That we conceived of this as a print project for a very long time. And there were things we would have done differently. If we'd entered it thinking it was a podcast, we probably would have gotten some of the families on audio. Part of me just wishes we had done this with a video camera and done it six years ago. You can always reverse engineer how it would have been perfect, I think, because it became a podcast kind of later in the execution. There were suddenly, as Molly says, then suddenly we didn't have voices for everyone, whereas in print we had photos. So I think it was a real lesson in some sense. This was neither fish nor foul at any. You know, there was never a time when there wasn't a script for the podcast that was evolving, also text that was evolving. And those things were not always in conversation. And I would say, frankly, it's been really interesting to do this on multiple platforms and get an email from someone who loved every second of it, but didn't know there was a podcast or who consumed the podcast and had no idea there was a print part. So I think in some ways, we really learned about both the joys and the perils of doing something that turned out to be an interview with RBG that stands alone, but also this huge print project, but also the, you know, there was just a lot. And I think as a consequence, it was a real lesson in you don't seamlessly migrate back and forth from a podcast to a print piece. They are two different entities. And it was hard and we were crazy sometimes, but I think we tried to do justice to both forms with the understanding that not everybody consumed all of.

[C]

It. I would like to say that there is something really wonderful about knowing that if you can't fit something into one medium, you could probably get it into the other. Like, I mean, I looked, researched some of the history of Harvard Law School, and none of that made it into the print piece. But, you know, it gets touched on in the audio piece. And it's just. There's something very satisfying, you know, about that. Just like from a writer's perspective, and obviously not so much from an editor's perspective, you usually don't get your way and get all the things you want want in a piece. And so that felt really.

[B]

Great. It's a second chance. I'm very grateful that you took the time to speak with us today. Thank you so much. Dahlia Lithwick and Molly Olmstead read their piece the Class of [e-mail] RBG and listen to the two episodes of Amicus wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks to both of.

[C]

You. Thank you.

[A]

June. Thank you, June. Thanks.

[B]

Molly. Working is a podcast about the creative process and how people get their work done. So far, we've interviewed people like opera singer Jamie Barton, journalist and novelist Taffy Brodesser Aichner, and cartoonist Adrian Tominet. To hear those interviews and more, please subscribe. You can head over to slate.com working or find us. Wherever you listen to podcasts.