Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Episode: Big Law Stands Up
Release Date: March 15, 2025
Introduction and Context
In this compelling episode of Amicus, Slate's podcast exploring the intricacies of law and the Supreme Court, host Dahlia Lithwick engages in a profound dialogue with Preet Bharara, former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. The conversation delves into the tensions between law and politics, especially in the backdrop of the Trump administration's controversial actions. The episode, titled "Big Law Stands Up," provides listeners with an in-depth analysis of how legal professionals navigate unprecedented challenges to uphold the rule of law.
The Rule of Law vs. Political Chaos
Dahlia Lithwick opens the discussion by highlighting the dichotomy observed during the Trump administration: while the executive branch engaged in acts perceived as unlawful—such as attempts to dismantle the Department of Education and the mysterious disappearance of a green card holder—judicial bodies across the nation responded with temporary restraining orders, injunctions, and reinstatements of government workers dismissed without cause.
Notable Quote:
Preet Bharara [01:19]: "What if a judicial order is ignored? Well, if there is hell to pay for ignoring a judicial order, then it won't be ignored."
This sets the stage for examining whether the rule of law can remain steadfast amidst political turmoil.
The Interplay Between Law and Politics
Lithwick probes into the nuanced balance lawyers like Bharara must maintain between adhering to legal principles and navigating political pressures. She observes that the legal profession often finds itself straddling the fine line where law converges with politics, questioning whether this boundary is merely theoretical or under threat in the current climate.
Notable Quote:
Dahlia Lithwick [03:12]: "This feels like a really important moment to talk about lawyers and law."
Bharara concurs, elaborating on how legal frameworks can become indistinct when not diligently upheld, emphasizing the indispensable role of lawyers in maintaining accountability and justice across the political spectrum.
The Crucial Role of Lawyers
Bharara underscores the multifaceted responsibilities of lawyers beyond mere legal representation. He asserts that lawyers are pivotal in various societal functions—including holding politicians accountable, rectifying injustices, and safeguarding civil rights—highlighting their role as essential pillars in the legal and political apparatus.
Notable Quote:
Preet Bharara [04:31]: "They are really important cogs in the massive system of law and politics that you describe. But they're really important."
He further emphasizes that the integrity and actions of lawyers directly impact the efficacy of the legal system, especially in times when political forces aim to undermine judicial processes.
Challenges Faced by Legal Professionals
The conversation shifts to specific instances where legal professionals stood against executive overreach. Lithwick references cases like Judge Beryl Howell's ruling in the Perkins Coie case and Judge William Alsop's decisions regarding the mass firings of probationary workers. These cases exemplify robust legal challenges to executive actions perceived as unlawful.
Notable Quote:
Dahlia Lithwick [07:18]: "I really believe that that vision of lawyers as kind of doing the work was really vindicated in courts around the country."
However, Bharara points out the fragility of this legal-bilateral commitment when one party disregards judicial norms, questioning the system's resilience under such pressures.
The Executive Order Targeting Perkins Coie
A significant portion of the discussion centers around an executive order aimed at the law firm Perkins Coie. The administration's attempt to disparage and restrict the firm's operations is dissected, revealing the administration's broader strategy to retaliate against legal entities unfavorable to its agenda.
Notable Quote:
Preet Bharara [17:42]: "It's just batshit crazy... that's nuts. It's so nuts that nobody anticipates... shows that Trump and his people have more imagination for ill will and bad conduct."
Bharara criticizes the executive order's provisions, which include terminating government contracts, denying access to federal buildings, and revoking security clearances for Perkins Coie employees. He argues that such measures are not only unprecedented but also a blatant abuse of executive power under the guise of national security.
Judicial Neutrality and the Role of Sanctions
The discussion further explores the judiciary's role in maintaining neutrality and enforcing rules. Lithwick raises concerns about the lack of sanctions against lawyers who breach judicial orders, pondering whether the system allows for judicial vulnerabilities when faced with non-compliance.
Notable Quote:
Preet Bharara [13:33]: "Judges are human beings... they're just human beings who are, we hope, acting in good faith."
Bharara acknowledges the discretionary power judges hold and the challenges they face in enforcing sanctions, especially in politically charged cases. He advocates for consistent application of sanctions to uphold judicial authority and prevent the erosion of legal norms.
Public Engagement and Citizen Responsibility
As the conversation progresses, Lithwick and Bharara discuss the crucial role of public engagement in sustaining the rule of law. They express concerns over a passive public that relies solely on courts to rectify injustices, rather than actively participating in democratic processes to hold elected officials accountable.
Notable Quote:
Preet Bharara [34:31]: "People have to pay attention. People can't tune out. People have to be involved and they have to make their anger known."
Bharara stresses that the effectiveness of the legal system is contingent upon an informed and active citizenry that supports and enforces legal norms through democratic means, especially during elections.
Conclusion and Takeaways
In wrapping up the episode, Dahlia Lithwick and Preet Bharara reflect on the precarious state of the legal system amidst increasing political interference. They underscore the necessity for lawyers to remain steadfast, judges to enforce rules impartially, and the public to remain vigilant and engaged.
Notable Quote:
Preet Bharara [37:36]: "The power imbalance was that more voting humans were prepared to throw out someone like Liz Cheney than keep Liz Cheney in for the sin of pointing out honorably the legal, moral and constitutional failings of the sitting President of the United States."
The episode concludes with a poignant reminder that the integrity of the rule of law depends not only on legal professionals and the judiciary but also significantly on the active participation and accountability maintained by the citizenry.
Final Thoughts
"Big Law Stands Up" serves as a crucial examination of the current challenges facing the American legal system. Through insightful dialogue, Dahlia Lithwick and Preet Bharara illuminate the delicate balance between law and politics, the indispensable role of lawyers, and the pressing need for public engagement to preserve democratic institutions. This episode is an essential listen for anyone interested in understanding the interplay between legal structures and political forces in shaping justice and accountability in the United States.