Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick | Bonus: A Conversation About Conversations with RBG

Recorded at the National Constitution Center, Philadelphia – November 2019

Episode Overview

This special holiday bonus episode features a conversation between Dahlia Lithwick (host, legal journalist) and Jeffrey Rosen (President, National Constitution Center), centered on Rosen’s book, Conversations with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Drawing from decades of interviews, the discussion offers a richly textured examination of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s character, judicial philosophy, impact on the law, and her evolving public persona. The dialogue balances warm personal anecdotes, legal analysis, and reflections on RBG’s legacy—especially her unique role as a bridge between eras in the fight for gender equality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Rosen’s Friendship with RBG

• [01:48] Rosen recounts first meeting Ginsburg in 1991 as a young law clerk in a D.C. Circuit elevator, where, to break an intimidating silence, he asked her about opera—a shared passion that sparked a lasting friendship.
  • Quote: “She had an ability to be incredibly intimidating even in her workout clothes... I just asked her, what operas have you seen recently?... And that started this magical, serendipitous, blessed friendship.” —Jeffrey Rosen [01:48]

2. RBG’s Foundational Advice: 'Be Independent. Be a Lady.'

• [03:06] Lithwick and Rosen explore how RBG, guided by her mother’s advice, balanced personal fortitude with decorum—navigating sexism in her era by refusing to be rattled.
  • Rosen describes RBG’s “extraordinary self-mastery,” connecting it to wisdom traditions that value overcoming unproductive emotions to serve others and achieve meaningful work.
  • Quote: “If I don't overcome unproductive emotions, I'll lose precious time for useful work.” —RBG (as told by Rosen) [05:12]
  • Quote: “To be a lady is by definition to be independent because you’re free of ego-based emotions.” —Jeffrey Rosen [08:10]

3. RBG as Editor, Perfectionist, and Innovator

• [10:58] Anecdotes illustrate RBG’s painstaking attention to precision—whether reviewing a Hollywood screenplay based on her life or even editing the marriage vows she recited at Rosen’s wedding.
  • Quote: “She was absolutely ferocious that he get the story right... more than anything, she really wanted him to get Marty right.” —Dahlia Lithwick [10:58]
  • Quote: “She’s so careful and so thoughtful that it suddenly occurred to her to broaden it and to make it egalitarian.” —Jeffrey Rosen, on RBG revising wedding vows [12:19]

4. Judicial Philosophy: From Minimalism to Crusader

• [12:19 - 20:55] Reflection on RBG’s transformation from a judicial “minimalist” and cautious incrementalist to a leading liberal voice—largely a result of changes within the Court and her role as senior Associate Justice.
  • Shelby County (2013): Writing the dissent, RBG became a cultural icon (“Notorious RBG”), galvanizing a generation.
  • Quote: “She insisted, ‘Oh, Jeff, I didn’t change. The court changed.’” —Jeffrey Rosen [13:52]
  • Lithwick notes that RBG’s power as the Court’s “only” woman post-O’Connor pushed her to use “soft power” and subtle influence to shape consensus.

5. Advocacy, Strategy, and Finding Her Voice

• [20:55 - 24:13] Ginsburg’s early legal advocacy was characterized by incrementalism and strategic litigation—often representing men to fight sex discrimination in ways male judges could understand.
  • Rosen points to a stylistic shift after 2013: from citation-heavy opinions to metaphor-rich, galvanizing dissents, i.e., the famous umbrella metaphor in Shelby County.
  • Quote: “She writes like a dream, and she writes in a really galvanizing way... she’s just freed up, she’s liberated to say what she thinks.” —Jeffrey Rosen [22:40]
  • Ginsburg’s list of “outrageous” cases she’d overturn (without hesitation) includes Citizens United, the narrowed ACA decision, Shelby County, and Carhart. [23:20]

6. RBG’s Controversial Nomination and Critique of Roe v. Wade

• [24:13 - 32:11] Lithwick and Rosen reflect on history—feminist groups initially opposed Ginsburg’s nomination for being too measured and for her critique of Roe (which she warned would spark backlash and stifle political organizing).
  • Quote: “At the time of Roe v. Wade, this issue was all over the state legislature... Opposition mounted. Instead of fighting in the trenches... there was one clear target to aim at—the unelected justices.” —RBG (read by Lithwick) [25:36]
  • Rosen credits Ginsburg’s long-standing argument that the constitutional basis for abortion rights should be equality—not privacy—as prescient.

7. MeToo, NDAs, and Civil Libertarianism

• [32:21 - 36:47] RBG’s take on MeToo: seeing it as an enduring movement, not a moment, she advocated ending enforcement of NDAs that gagged victims, years before this became mainstream legal debate.
  • Quote: “I hope those agreements will not be enforced by the courts.” —RBG (read by Lithwick) [33:49]
  • She balanced support for the movement with concern for procedural fairness and due process, echoing discussions with Margaret Atwood.

8. RBG’s Empathy and Understanding of the Disadvantaged

• [39:16 - 44:47] Both panelists explore how, despite her privileged upbringing, Ginsburg demonstrated deep empathy for marginalized clients—rooted in her attentive listening and ability to “imagine herself into someone else’s shoes.”
  • Quote: “Her empathy... cuts through all her jurisprudence... her capacity to deeply, deeply empathize with lives that are not like hers...” —Dahlia Lithwick [40:31]
  • Quote: “Behind that particularism was the warmest and most acutely attentive empathy imaginable.” —Jeffrey Rosen [44:47]

9. On Not Retiring During Obama’s Presidency

• [47:42 - 48:47] Addressing tough questions, Rosen notes RBG’s steadfast rationale for not retiring: “What reason is there to believe that anyone better than I could have gotten through the Senate?” [48:10].
  • Lithwick contextualizes this as partly motivated by the gendered treatment of justices; RBG resented calls for her to step down when male colleagues were not similarly pressured.

10. Constitutional Evolution and ‘Embracive’ Originalism

• [51:05 - 53:16] Lithwick reads RBG’s stirring remarks on her pride officiating her first same-sex wedding—framing U.S. constitutional history as a story of expanding inclusion.
  • Quote: “The idea of ‘We the People’ has become more and more embracive... The genius of our Constitution is how much more embracive we have become than we were at the start.” —RBG (read by Lithwick) [51:05]
  • Rosen notes RBG’s own embrace of a form of originalism that views the founding documents as intentionally seeds for growing equality.

11. RBG’s Legacy, Prophethood, and Remaining Challenges

• [59:37 - 64:21] Lithwick reflects that Ginsburg was “both too early and too late”—having envisioned equality others are only beginning to grasp, and remaining “shocked” at the slow pace of domestic and structural social progress.
  • Quote: “She was both a prophet, but also kind of a disappointed prophet that we haven't done the work of organizing ourselves according to this... crystalline, obvious definition of what equality would look like.” —Dahlia Lithwick [64:21]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Self-Mastery & Service:
  “Her ability to actually achieve that inspires me every single day... always believing that the work, overcoming your ego, not getting distracted, maintaining the focus because it was so urgently important to continue to spread the light.” —Jeffrey Rosen [07:20]

• On Minimalism to Dissenter:
  “She starts writing the main dissents...it was in 2013 that she writes her Shelby County dissent, which inspires the Tumblr blog the Notorious RBG, which goes viral.” —Jeffrey Rosen [13:12]

• On Equality as Constitutional Principle:
  “The word ‘equal’ becomes a part of the Constitution in the 14th Amendment. So I see as the genius of our Constitution and of our society how much more embracive we have become than we were at the start.” —Ruth Bader Ginsburg (read by Lithwick) [51:14]

• On Feminist Progress and Disappointment:
  “She authentically believed... by 1979, we were all going to be in that [equal] marriage. And clearly that's not what happens... she’s always a bit shocked that there’s still such a massive disparity in just work organization and domestic organization.” —Dahlia Lithwick [61:12]

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Quote | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:48 | Rosen’s elevator meeting and the opera anecdote | | 05:12 | RBG’s method of overcoming unproductive emotions | | 10:58 | RBG’s editorial meticulousness (book and film anecdotes) | | 12:19 | Ginsburg’s transition from minimalism to key dissenter | | 20:55 | Ginsburg’s early advocacy, strategy, and the evolution of her judicial voice | | 25:36 | RBG’s critique of Roe and initial feminist opposition | | 33:49 | RBG on NDAs and MeToo (ending gag orders) | | 40:31 | Discussion on RBG’s empathy for the disadvantaged | | 48:10 | Why Ginsburg didn’t retire under Obama | | 51:05 | RBG’s concept of “embracive” constitutional progress | | 59:37 | Reflections on RBG’s constitutional legacy and modern feminism | | 64:21 | Lithwick on RBG as prophet and visionary |

Conclusion: Flow and Tone

Throughout, the conversation is warm, intellectually rigorous, and occasionally humorous—a revealing portrait not just of RBG, but of her interlocutors' respect and admiration. Both Rosen and Lithwick bring personal stories and legal nuance, making this episode an engaging and accessible deep-dive into Justice Ginsburg’s historical role, judicial restraint and activism, empathy, and ongoing cultural resonance.

“Let her shining spirit, which you so beautifully identified, of disciplined empathy, inspire all of us to be better people and better students of the Constitution.” —Jeffrey Rosen [64:21]