Episode Overview

Podcast: Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick
Episode: Bonus: Impeachment and the “Spy Stuff”
Air Date: October 29, 2019
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT), member of the House Intelligence Committee

This special bonus episode dives into the intersection of impeachment, counterintelligence, and the so-called “spy stuff” that has dominated headlines. Dahlia Lithwick enlists Congressman Jim Himes to clarify the role of the Intelligence Committee, explain the murky overlap between law and intelligence, and unpack how politicization is impacting American institutions during the Trump-era impeachment inquiry. The conversation explores the origins and purpose of the impeachment investigation, the significance of the “deep state” narrative, and broader threats to American democracy and norms.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Intelligence Committee’s Mandate and Overlap with Judiciary (02:17–06:14)

• Committee Responsibilities:

  • The Judiciary Committee is focused on “law stuff,” primarily the judicial branch and related legal oversight.
  • The Intelligence Committee handles “spy stuff,” overseeing the intersection of intelligence gathering, surveillance, national security, and constitutional rights.
  • The Intelligence Committee daily navigates issues of secrecy, classification, and civil liberties, especially regarding authorities from FISA and the Patriot Act.

• Quote:

  "When it comes to questions of the overlap of intelligence and our constitutional rights and the law, that lives squarely in the Intelligence Committee."
  — Jim Himes (03:20)

• Distinction and Overlap:

  • FBI is mainly a domestic law enforcement body, while CIA, NSA, and others operate abroad.
  • The overlap gets complicated in counterterrorism and counterintelligence contexts, with the FBI sometimes serving as part of the intelligence community.

2. Counterintelligence, the Mueller Probe, and Russian Interference (06:14–10:53)

• Mueller Probe Origins:

  • The Mueller investigation began as a counterintelligence probe driven by concerns over Russian efforts to influence the US election and the potential compromise of the Trump campaign.

• Quote:

  "The reason the Mueller investigation has its origins in a counterintelligence investigation… when Jim Comey announces that there has been for some time a counterintelligence investigation into Russian interference and the possibility of the Trump campaign having colluded with the Russian effort… it all has its origin in the famous story of the Trump campaign staffer… who brags to a diplomat that he knows of an effort to gather dirt on Hillary Clinton’s campaign."
  — Jim Himes (07:00)

• Mueller’s Concerns:

  • The one area Mueller was unequivocal: Russia interfered, is interfering, and will interfere again, while many other findings were less conclusive.
  • Volume One of Mueller's report documented specific Russian interference, while Volume Two detailed the President’s obstruction attempts.

3. Investigating the Investigators & Politicization of Justice (10:53–18:59)

• Shift in DOJ Investigations:

  • The DOJ’s administrative review into the Russia probe’s origins transitioned into a criminal probe led by John Durham, raising concerns about targeting figures like Jim Comey and Andrew McCabe to support Trump’s “deep state” narrative.

• Chilling Effects:

  • Himes warns of long-lasting damage to the FBI and CIA, where officers may self-censor for fear of political blowback.

• Quote:

  "The Attorney General is doing this to appease the President, who has a wacky conspiracy theory… The entire law enforcement apparatus may be being used in an attempt to buttress this president's deep state theories. And quite frankly, that's the stuff that smacks of banana republics."
  — Jim Himes (12:15, 00:05 replayed)

• Barr’s Language:

  • Barr’s use of “spying” echoes conspiracy theories and erodes impartiality. His actions, including the pre-release memo on the Mueller report, raise ethical red flags.

• Quote:

  "When he uses the word spying, which is both an incorrect use of the word and it’s a word, of course, that points right at the fever swamp conspiracy theories... he's really playing with fire here."
  — Jim Himes (17:40)

4. The Erosion of Public Confidence in Institutions (18:59–21:58)

• Consequences:

  • The nihilistic undermining of faith in the Justice Department and courts now extends to the intelligence community, making it “terrifying.”
  • Lithwick and Himes agree that bureaucratic participation in Trump’s conspiracy campaigns is more dangerous than his tweets.

• Quote:

  "It's not just another gaseous emanation from the Oval Office on Twitter, it's a really scary thing."
  — Jim Himes (19:44)

5. Counterintelligence, Foreign Interference, and the Constitution (20:58–23:49)

• Founders’ Fears:

  • The impeachment isn’t just about lawbreaking, but about national security and foreign influence—a founding concern.
  • Himes recounts examples of Russian disinformation targeted at Latino voters, reflecting new risks in a networked society.

• Quote:

  "There is the question of direct influence… But then there’s also the question in this highly networked world of what does it mean in an open society where malefactors get to, in a very big way, contribute to our national civic dialogue."
  — Jim Himes (22:25)

6. “Skiffgate” and the Importance of Secrecy in Intelligence Investigations (23:49–26:43)

• SCIF Security:

  • Recent Republican protests about closed-door depositions (“Skiffgate”) are political, not substantive; classified work requires privacy for effectiveness and to prevent witness tampering.

• Notable Reference:

  • Himes cites Trey Gowdy (from Benghazi hearings) supporting closed depositions for better information gathering.

• Quote:

  "You can get an awful lot more out of a closed deposition in which people aren't playing for the cameras, in which council can do the questioning..."
  — Jim Himes (24:31)

7. The President, Intelligence Secrecy, and Congressional Oversight (26:43–28:56)

• Information Sharing:

  • The balance between secrecy for national security and transparency with Congressional leadership is delicate, with the recent Baghdadi raid illustrating the risks of excluding experienced oversight.

• Quote:

  "It's a better process if the President relies on the good counsel of a bipartisan group of leaders prior to doing something like this."
  — Jim Himes (28:43)

8. Executive Privilege and Congressional Subpoenas (28:56–30:47)

• Kupperman Subpoena:

  • When witnesses like Charles Kupperman refuse to appear, Congress’s recourse is limited, highlighting the erosion of checks and balances and the need for legal clarity on executive privilege.

• Quote:

  "If we don't have a world like that... we are on the way to doing away with the traditional checks and balances in our system."
  — Jim Himes (30:33)

9. Advice for Citizens: What to Prioritize (30:47–33:51)

• Inevitability of Impeachment Path:

  • Himes predicts impeachment in the House and acquittal in the Senate; real accountability must come at the ballot box in November 2020.

• Restoring Norms:

  • Beyond short-term politics, Americans must focus on repairing institutions, explicitly redefining norms (e.g., limits of executive privilege), and finding ways to reduce hyperpolarization.

• Quote:

  "We survive because there is flow of ideas and people change their minds and they're a little bit humble about their political opinions. I think that's a great undiscussed project for hopefully the very near future."
  — Jim Himes (33:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “Deep State” Rhetoric:

  "Worst case scenario, the entire law enforcement apparatus may be being used in an attempt to buttress this president's deep state theories. And quite frankly, that's the stuff that smacks of, you know, banana republics."
  — Jim Himes (00:05, 12:45)

• On Attorney General Bill Barr:

  "He continues to use the President's language of the deep state spying on him. That is right out of the right wing crazy conspiracy theory playbooks."
  — Jim Himes (17:25)

• On Foreign Election Interference:

  "The one thing about which BOB Mueller was 100% unequivocal… was Russia interfered with the election. They're doing it again. They're doing it again on a larger scale."
  — Dahlia Lithwick (08:16)

• On Restoring Democracy:

  "Let's also spare a thought to what we do and say to get us to a place that we can start restitching the civic dialogue in this country and move it away from the almost violent tribalism… to a calmer, more open, more humble politics."
  — Jim Himes (33:20)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:05 | Opening discussion on DOJ and “deep state” narrative | | 02:17 | Intelligence Committee vs. Judiciary Committee responsibilities | | 06:14 | How the Mueller probe began as a counterintelligence investigation | | 10:53 | DOJ probe into the origins of Russia investigation; politicization concerns | | 12:07 | Himes outlines dangers of politicizing law enforcement | | 17:04 | AG Bill Barr’s role, rhetoric, and consequences in undermining institutions | | 19:44 | Impact of attacks on DOJ, FBI, and intelligence community | | 20:58 | Constitutional dimension: Foreign interference and the Founders’ intent | | 22:25 | Challenges in the digital, networked age of disinformation | | 23:49 | "Skiffgate" and the necessity of closed-door intelligence work | | 26:43 | Secrecy, intelligence sharing with Congress, and the Baghdadi raid | | 28:56 | Executive privilege, Kupperman subpoena, breakdown of checks and balances | | 30:47 | Himes’s advice: The future of impeachment and civic repair | | 33:22 | Himes on bridging polarization and restoring American democratic engagement |

Episode Tone

The conversation is urgent, candid, and slightly anxious—combining clear-eyed legal analysis with expressions of deep concern over politicized attacks on democratic institutions. Dahlia Lithwick’s probing, plainspoken journalism draws out Himes’s frank warnings and hopes for the future, making the episode accessible and engaging for legal novices and policy wonks alike.