Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick: “Bonus: Time to Celebrate Some Wins”

Date: October 18, 2022
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Jessica Levinson
Theme: Examining the “pendulum” of women’s rights in law, the evolution of equality, how rhetoric weaponizes the law, and the real-world consequences post-Dobbs.

Episode Overview

This bonus episode of Amicus features a live-recorded, in-depth conversation between host Dahlia Lithwick and law professor Jessica Levinson. Together, they reflect on achievements and setbacks for women in the law, unpack the symbolic and real dangers of weaponizing legal rhetoric against women, and examine the current legal climate following the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision overturning Roe v. Wade. The tone is urgent yet reflective, mixing hard truths with encouragement to keep fighting for progress.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Pendulum of Progress for Women in Law

• Lithwick’s Perspective: She recounts how, only a couple years prior, she was optimistic about the state of gender equality in the legal profession:
  • “We are so close to complete equality. Look at us. You know, we're 50% of every law school class, and we're kind of clawing our way into the highest echelons at law firms and at law schools. And look at all the women deans of law schools in the last 10 years. I mean, it's breathtaking.” (03:03)
• Pendulum Analogy: She describes progress as non-linear — “every single major civil rights movement… is one step forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step sideways” (03:30).
• Current Moment: Lithwick observes a backlash, not only in gender rights but across civil rights: “Things that seemed certain 5, 10, 15 years ago are really, really, I think, destabilized.” (03:54)

2. The Law as a Double-Edged Sword

• Lithwick reflects on the contradictions faced by marginalized groups:
  • "The same legal processes and systems that were used to criminalize your behavior... are now the processes that make us free and equal..." (04:39)
• She references W.E.B. Du Bois' "double consciousness," comparing it to how women navigate being both recipients of progress and continued discrimination:
  • “We move through the world as two creatures, one the beneficiary of American exceptionalism and also the recipient of a long, long legal tradition that says you're nothing.” (05:00)
• Post-Dobbs, she stresses the threat goes beyond abortion:
  • "This isn't just about abortion, this is about miscarriages. This is about birth control, this is about pregnancy, this is about how we raise our children." (05:18)

3. Historical Context: The Role of Men in Legal Foundations

• Lithwick symbolically discusses her book’s pink cover:
  • "The law is very much a pink book that was written by men for men, and that the framers and the drafters... controlled every aspect of a woman's life for centuries, for millennia, were men." (04:07)

4. Law as Instrument of Oppression: “Lock Her Up”

• Jessica Levinson asks about the chant “Lock her up” and its evolution as a tool of oppression:
  • “Can you talk about how this 'Lock her up' chant is, one, a metaphor in the book, but two, how it really is, I think a through line through a lot of the stories.” (06:09)
• Lithwick traces its progression from “Iron my shirts” (seen as mere sexism) to “Lock her up” (a legalistic threat):
  • “‘Lock her up’ is really threatening. ...That's using the machinery of the law to incarcerate a woman, not ever for anything specific other than what, saying unpopular things?” (07:17)
• She lists how this chant extended well past Hillary Clinton, targeting Nancy Pelosi, AOC, and even Christine Blasey Ford after her Senate testimony.
• The metaphor becomes stark reality:
  • “Within weeks of the book shipping, women were being locked up in Alabama for fetal endangerment… Brittany Pullop locked up in Oklahoma for a miscarriage that the state determined was because of drug abuse. So now we're actually looking around at a country where women are going to be locked up.” (09:24)

5. From Law to Lawlessness

• Lithwick differentiates between giving up on legal systems and recognizing moments when the law is manipulated to become lawless, distinguishing hope from resignation:
  • “The object isn't to give up on the law... It's to say, no, this has now become lawless.” (10:40)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the precariousness of progress:
  • “I just had that sense that we were inching up on the forever times. And clearly we're not.” — Dahlia Lithwick (03:13)
• On survivability of civil rights progress:
  • “Every single major civil rights movement in this country… is one step forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step sideways.” — Dahlia Lithwick (03:30)
• On the aftermath of Dobbs:
  • “If they can put us in jail for terminating a pregnancy, then my DNC that I had after a miscarriage is also on the table.” — Dahlia Lithwick (05:29)
• On historic misogyny:
  • “If you go back to Sir Matthew Hale, beloved burn some witches. Yeah, beloved witch burner of British history. And you're citing the views of people from centuries back, they thought women were either property or children.” — Dahlia Lithwick (05:50)
• On the weaponization of law:
  • “‘Lock her up’ went from being the sort of zeitgeist of, this is an inconvenient woman who doesn't know her place… to an actual state of affairs.” — Dahlia Lithwick (08:41)

Important Segments and Timestamps

• 00:02 — Introduction to the episode and Slate Plus membership pitch
• 01:32 — Jessica Levinson’s question about women’s relationship with the law
• 03:03 — Lithwick on perceived progress and the "pendulum" analogy
• 04:07 — Discussion about the law's gendered origins and its symbolism
• 05:18 — The broad legal threats to women post-Dobbs
• 05:50 — Historical citation of Matthew Hale and the law’s foundation in misogyny
• 06:09 — Levinson on “Lock her up”—metaphor and real-world danger
• 07:17 — Lithwick tracing the escalation from rhetoric to carceral reality
• 09:24 — Examples of women locked up post-Dobbs
• 10:40 — Reflection: law as double-edged, resistance to resignation

Conclusion

This episode captures a pivotal moment for women’s rights and legal equality, blending historical insight with present-day urgency. Lithwick and Levinson’s dialogue renders visible how wins are never guaranteed, how legal rhetoric shapes lived realities, and why the fight for justice demands both vigilance and hope. The conversation is candid, incisive, and deeply resonant for anyone seeking to understand the current crossroads of law, gender, and power in America.