Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | "Demolition Man"

October 25, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of Amicus, hosted by Dahlia Lithwick, confronts the current moment in American democracy, focusing on the symbolic and literal demolition of democratic norms, institutions, and even the White House itself under the current administration. Centered around the demolition of the East Wing for a $300 million presidential ballroom—proceeding without legal approvals amid a government shutdown—Dahlia contextualizes this act as a metaphor for broader institutional and democratic decay. The episode features a deep and urgent conversation with Joyce White Vance, former U.S. attorney, legal scholar, and author of the new book Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual for Keeping a Democracy, probing how citizens and institutions can resist authoritarian decline, restore hope, and fight for democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Demolition of Democracy: Symbolism and Reality

• East Wing Demolition: Dahlia opens with vivid imagery of the White House’s East Wing being destroyed for a new ballroom—pushing forward despite a government shutdown and illegal lack of approval. She highlights this as representative of the broader gutting of institutions and norms.
  • "The iconic historic building's guts on display, a bulldozer’s claw reaching to tear down more to make way for the President’s $300 million ballroom." (03:00)
• Mass Protests: Juxtaposes this demolition with hopeful images of 7+ million protesting in "No Kings" marches, underscoring that both despair and resistance exist side by side.

2. Hope vs. Despair in Democratic Decline

• Seesaw of the Moment: Guests agree that Americans toggle between optimism and elegy amid relentless governmental outrages and inspiring civic engagement.
  • Joyce: "Those are the two images that are living simultaneously in my brain right now. You nailed it." (04:57)

3. The Mind Game of Authoritarianism

• Strategy of Weakness and Inevitable Power: Authoritarians persuade the public of their own helplessness to sap resistance.
  • "Convince people that they are weak, convince them that Trump is inevitable so that they won’t push back, so that they won’t fight to protect the vote." — Joyce (05:54)

4. Media Critique: Outrage vs. Resistance

• Press Failures: Both Dahlia and Joyce lament that the mainstream press highlights destruction over resistance, underreporting the scale and significance of protest.
  • "What Americans need to feel in this moment is that they’re not alone. We need to be in community... being in community is powerful." — Joyce (08:06)
  • Rachel Maddow’s coverage of protests is praised as a positive exception (08:00).

5. The Danger of Normalizing Outrage

• Torpor and Disengagement: Continuous legal and political outrages risk making crisis feel inevitable or not worth resisting.
  • "When you’re just reacting, you’re missing the strategic moves you need to make." — Joyce (10:24)

6. Proactive Defense of Democracy

• Preparing for Next Attacks: Joyce urges strategic action, especially on voting rights (e.g., anticipating proof of citizenship requirements), and calls for a “government in exile” mindset to educate and mobilize the public.
  • "We need to do more to come together and understand what the future is going to look like and what we can do to make sure that MAGA doesn’t win." (12:20)

7. Weaponization of Prosecution

Segment: [12:41–19:18]

• Targeting Political Enemies: Dahlia and Joyce discuss the dangerous prosecutions of figures like James Comey and Tish James in the Eastern District of Virginia, orchestrated by unqualified appointees installed for loyalty, not merit.
  • "Donald Trump obtained indictments against his personal enemies by removing career prosecutors... and replacing them with blatantly unqualified yes man, or in this case, yes woman, who would do his bidding." — Joyce (13:43)
• Justice Department Undermined: The removal of professional standards leaves everyone vulnerable to arbitrary prosecutions.
  • "Permitting that political interference damages the fabric of our society. It renders us all vulnerable. And yet this is inexplicably the moment that we're in." — Joyce (14:59)
• Legal Pushback: High-profile defense attorneys employ motions to dismiss based on selective and vindictive prosecution and improper appointment (16:50).

8. Institutional Breakdown: DOJ and Trust

Segment: [24:49–29:26]

• Collapse of DOJ Credibility: The loss of “presumption of regularity,” where courts assume prosecutors act in good faith, is devastating.
  • "It’s like grieving. It’s grieving the loss of an institution that was so solid that it withstood politics." — Joyce (26:35)
• Textbook Corruption: Trump’s direct interference, gifting positions to loyalists by tweet, is critiqued as beneath the rule of law.
  • "None of that sounds to me like how the Justice Department should ever operate." — Joyce (29:14)

9. Congress: The Ghost Ship

Segment: [29:58–36:31]

• Functionally Absent Congress: Dahlia laments Congress' complete inactivity, lack of oversight, and refusal to claim its constitutional powers.
  • "This is the Article 1 branch of government. The Founding Fathers believed that Congress... was the most important part of government. I am tired of a Congress that refuses to accept that responsibility and act that way." — Joyce (31:45)
• Urgency for Civic Engagement: Encourages constituents to demand accountability, especially from Senators, and push for voter participation despite gerrymandering limits (31:45).
  • "It is so vast to have a Congress that is not functioning at all right now." — Dahlia (31:39)
• No Plan B: If Congress collapses, democracy itself is endangered.
  • "Without a functioning democracy, there isn’t a better thing coming along... stand up for it, even if it is failing you." — Dahlia (36:08)

10. Voting Rights & The 2026 Elections

Segment: [40:20–45:09]

• All Roads Lead to Voting: Despite fears of future troop/intimidation at polls and the likely gutting of the Voting Rights Act by the Supreme Court, the central message is radical: refuse to be deterred.
  • "Nobody would fight so hard to keep you from voting if they weren't afraid of what would happen when you voted." — Joyce (41:27)
  • "Double down. Stiffen your spine. Understand this right is so important. They are so terrified of us that they will try to keep it from happening. And our job is to be ramrod straight and to all go out and vote, no matter what it takes." — Joyce (44:32)
• Strategic Action: Preparation, not just reaction, is key. Preventative action around registration and community engagement must begin now (45:09).

11. Defending Old Institutions — Don’t Smash the Toilet, Fix the Ring

Segment: [45:40–49:53]

• Fight for Institutions: Joyce’s book is described as a love letter to "boring old institutions," arguing for their repair, not destruction.
  • "Our institutions are not perfect. It’s important to acknowledge their problems and commit to improving them, but not abandon them altogether." — Dahlia (45:50)
• Metaphor — The Smashed Toilet: Repairing institutions requires care, not destructive frustration.
  • "It was just a rubber ring, but it looks like Mr. Vance got frustrated and he took a hammer to it... Let’s replace the rubber rings, let’s fulfill the institution’s promise, let’s not smack them." — Joyce (47:41)

12. Discourse, Language, & Moral Decay

Segment: [50:13–55:07]

• Tone & Language Matter: Dahlia and Joyce lament the rise of hate, misogyny, and antisemitic discourse in public and private leadership, including among judicial and executive elites.
  • "We live in a mean and ugly moment in American history... The veneer of respect for other people or civil discourse even in the family, has evaporated." — Joyce (52:19)
• Language Shapes Institutions: The normalization of cruelty in speech is both a symptom and driver of democratic decay.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Democratic Weakness & Resistance

  • "The weakness and the strength... Is that your sense, too?" — Dahlia (05:07)
  • "I’m a big believer in staring the risk straight in the eye." — Joyce (05:36)

• On the Weaponization of DOJ

  • "What’s to prevent Donald Trump... from sicking his attack dog on that contractor or on the editor of a small newspaper in Iowa or whoever it is that he decides is an enemy?" — Joyce (14:30)

• On Voting Rights

  • "Voting is like a real frog in the pot moment... We can’t do that. But... where, I guess, are you on your personal frog boiling scale about the possibility of free and fair elections in the future?" — Dahlia (40:47)
  • "Job number one is for all of us to do whatever it takes to be able to vote." — Joyce (41:27)

• On Institutionalism

  • "The path to autocracy is littered with battered and broken institutions. If you want to preserve democracy, fight for the institutions." — Dahlia (45:50)
  • "Your role might not look like an institutional role. It might look like teaching kids about civics." — Joyce (47:24)

• On the ‘Smashed Toilet’ Metaphor

  • "Let’s replace the rubber rings, let’s fulfill the institution’s promise, let’s not smack them. Because having to replace them would just bring a halt to any progress in this world." — Joyce (47:45)

• On Civility and the Decline of Discourse

  • "If there’s a unifying theme in this administration, it’s hating people. It’s hating people that aren’t like them so that they can lift themselves up and feel better about who they are." — Joyce (54:12)

Timestamps Overview

• 03:00 – White House demolition as metaphor for institutional decay
• 04:57 – Joyce White Vance on hope & despair
• 08:06 – Power of protest and community; media’s failure to amplify resistance
• 13:35 – Weaponized federal prosecutions, Eastern District of Virginia
• 26:35 – Collapse of the Justice Department & loss of "presumption of regularity"
• 31:45 – Congress’s constitutional abdication; urgency to restore legislative role
• 41:27 – The fight for voting rights and how authoritarian fear motivates voter suppression
• 45:50 – Defense of institutions; metaphor of fixing vs. smashing
• 52:19 – The moral and rhetorical decay in American civic discourse

Conclusion

The episode, grounded in vivid metaphor and sobering legal reality, challenges listeners to face the corrosion of American institutions with clear eyes and active engagement. Dahlia Lithwick, together with Joyce White Vance, urges resistance not simply through outrage, but with concrete civic action: defending voting rights, demanding more from representatives, strengthening the integrity of institutions, and restoring civility in public discourse. Giving Up Is Unforgivable isn’t just a book title; it’s a charge to each listener to row harder, fix the “rubber rings” in our democracy, and refuse to be daunted by the scale of the challenge.