Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts Episode: Don’t Give Up on the Law Just Yet Release Date: August 2, 2025

Introduction: The Crisis of the Rule of Law

Mark Joseph Stern opens the episode by addressing a pressing concern: the diminishing role of the law in the face of executive overreach and a Supreme Court perceived as partisan. He reflects, "A lot of this despair centers on the courts, where law should be the coin of the realm. But raw partisan power has become the true currency" (02:15).

Interview with Reynolds Holding: A Beacon of Hope in the Judiciary

Reynolds Holding, journalist, lawyer, and research scholar at Columbia Law School, discusses his new book, Better How Three Judges Are Bringing Justice Back to the Courts. He emphasizes the resilience and dedication of judges who continue to uphold justice despite systemic challenges.

Judge Carlton Reeves: Upholding Justice Against the Odds

Reynolds introduces Judge Carlton Reeves, highlighting his humble beginnings in Yazoo City, Mississippi. Reeves grew up in a segregated yet integrated educational environment, where he viewed judges and Supreme Court justices as heroes who paved the way for his opportunities. Holding notes, "He went to Jackson State University... and he refers to that as the best thing, one of the best things he ever did because he learned to be among his peers" (04:05).

A pivotal moment in Reeves' career was his role as the trial judge in the Dobbs decision, which overturned Roe v. Wade. Despite personal victories, such as his qualified immunity decision in the Clarence Jamison case, which, while denying relief, boldly stated, "the law compels me to do what the only thing I can do, and that is to dismiss the case" (07:33). This decision was particularly impactful during the Black Lives Matter movement, serving as both a legal stance and a moral commentary.

Judge Martha Vasquez: Championing Inclusion and Second Chances

The conversation shifts to Judge Martha Vasquez, a Mexican American from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Holding recounts her family's struggles, particularly her brother's wrongful conviction and long imprisonment due to the flawed application of federal sentencing guidelines. This personal tragedy fueled Vasquez's commitment to justice.

Vasquez's innovative approach includes bringing the court to the Navajo Nation. Despite legal hurdles, she held a trial in Shiprock, New Mexico, aiming to make the judiciary more accessible and representative. Holding remarks, "She wanted to encourage Navajo people to want to do jury service... so she took her court literally to Shiprock" (14:20). This initiative not only provided a fair trial for a Navajo defendant but also fostered a deeper understanding of the legal system within the community.

Judge Jed Rakoff: Standing Against Corporate Oligarchy

Jed Rakoff, with a traditional background as a federal prosecutor and corporate lawyer, emerges as a formidable opponent to corporate malfeasance. Holding describes Rakoff's refusal to approve no-admit settlements between the SEC and major banks, questioning, "how do I know whether the settlement is in the public interest?" (07:33).

Rakoff's actions during high-profile cases, such as the financial crisis settlements with Bank of America and Citigroup, exemplify his commitment to transparency and accountability. Holding notes, "He is very much working against oligarchy. And actually, I take that bet. He has mentioned this to me and he has put it that way" (20:56).

The Struggle Within the Judiciary: Balancing Heroism and Systemic Challenges

The dialogue transitions to the broader judiciary landscape, particularly the challenges posed by judges like Emile Beauvais, a recent Trump appointee with a controversial record. Beauvais's actions, including dropping prosecutions in exchange for immigration enforcement and defying court orders, contrast sharply with the integrity of Reeves, Vasquez, and Rakoff.

Holding acknowledges the concerns, stating, "We have to depend on the system to come up with good, qualified, honest judges" (38:17). Despite the ascendancy of judges with questionable motives, he maintains optimism about the lower courts' ability to uphold justice. Referencing a study by University of Virginia and NYU Law School professors, Holding points out that many Trump-appointed judges remain well-qualified and committed to justice.

The Supreme Court's Pervasive Influence and Its Implications

Mark Joseph Stern raises a critical point about the Supreme Court's tendency to overturn lower court rulings, questioning the efficacy of heroic lower court judges. Holding responds by emphasizing the importance of these judges in the day-to-day administration of justice. He notes, "most of the time that's the end of it" for cases heard in district courts, highlighting their fundamental role despite potential reversals at higher levels (32:04).

Reinforcing Faith in the Judiciary: Lessons from Resilient Judges

Reynolds Holding argues that the dedication of judges like Reeves, Vasquez, and Rakoff illustrates the judiciary's potential to advance democracy. He explains, "each of these judges... advances one of these elements of what's necessary for democracy" (42:40):

• Jed Rakoff: Combating oligarchy by holding powerful corporations accountable.
• Carlton Reeves: Promoting inclusion and ensuring marginalized communities are represented.
• Martha Vasquez: Providing second chances and fostering rehabilitation.

These judges embody a commitment to justice that transcends personal and systemic challenges, inspiring confidence in the judiciary's role in democracy.

Conclusion: Persevering in the Pursuit of Justice

As the episode concludes, Reynolds Holding reinforces the message that abandoning the courts would undermine a vital democratic institution. He asserts, "We need courts, and we should not just sort of disregard the judicial system" (50:01). By highlighting the exemplary work of dedicated judges, Holding advocates for continued faith and support in the judicial system as a means to uphold and advance civil liberties and justice.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mark Joseph Stern: "A lot of this despair centers on the courts, where law should be the coin of the realm. But raw partisan power has become the true currency." (02:15)

• Reynolds Holding: "He was the first Latino federal judge in New Mexico. And her approach is, as she says, never to throw people away like garbage, to give people a chance to learn who the people are before her." (11:32)

• Judge Carlton Reeves (as described by Holding): "Let's go do justice." (05:00)

• Mark Joseph Stern: "Even though these judges are so different, they're all in the same judiciary with him [Beauvais]. So what does that mean for the courts as a whole?" (37:50)

• Reynolds Holding: "We need courts, and we should not just sort of disregard the judicial system by concluding that there are judges out there who don't follow the law or follow the law in the wrong direction." (50:01)

Final Thoughts

"Don’t Give Up on the Law Just Yet" serves as a compelling reminder of the judiciary's critical role in maintaining democracy and justice. Through the profiles of Judges Reeves, Vasquez, and Rakoff, the episode underscores the importance of resilient and principled judges who continue to fight for fairness and equality, even in the face of systemic adversity. Reynolds Holding's insights provide both a critical analysis and a hopeful perspective on the future of the American legal system.