Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | “Election Meltdown, Part 1”
Original Air Date: January 25, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Co-Host/Guest: Rick Hasen (Professor of Law and Political Science, UC Irvine)
Theme: Deep dive into erosion of trust in American elections—disinformation, institutional failures, and the ongoing struggle over voter fraud claims and suppression. This episode kicks off the “Election Meltdown” series based on Hasen's book.
Episode Overview
This episode launches the “Election Meltdown” miniseries, focusing on the health of American democracy ahead of the 2020 election. Host Dahlia Lithwick and co-host Rick Hasen (author of Election Meltdown) examine the growing distrust in U.S. elections, exploring the persistent and politicized claims about voter fraud, as well as the concrete dangers posed by voter suppression. Through expert interviews and firsthand accounts, the episode unpacks both myth and reality, highlighting how these challenges endanger the legitimacy of America's electoral system.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Stakes: Trust in the 2020 Election
- [00:04–01:57] The show opens with Lithwick linking the impeachment proceedings against Donald Trump to the core question “whether and how that election can be free and fair.”
- Quote: “Impeachment exists for cases in which the conduct of the president rises beyond mere policy disputes... that is an attempt to use the powers of the presidency to cheat in an election.” – Rep. Adam Schiff [01:25]
- [02:57] Contextualizes why the topic is urgent: erosion of trust in democracy is “the only thing that can truly matter anymore.”
2. Election Distrust – Four Core Causes
- Rick Hasen outlines the roots of “election meltdown”:
- Republican-driven voter suppression
- Incompetence in election administration (both parties)
- Dirty tricks (e.g., foreign interference, political manipulation)
- Incendiary rhetoric from both political sides
- [04:30] Quote:
- “Americans are increasingly distrustful of the election process... I do worry that we're going to get to a point where people might not accept the results if it does not come out to their liking.” – Rick Hasen
3. Case Study: The Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity (“Voter Fraud” Commission)
Background & Partisan Motivations
- [08:54–15:45] Explores President Trump’s pattern of fraud accusations, the formation of the commission, and participation of Kris Kobach and others dubbed the “fraudulent fraud squad.”
- Hasen’s take on the commission:
- “This commission I think was not set up to investigate, but to confirm Trump’s widespread claims of voter fraud.” [15:10]
- On its members:
- “If you were trying to come up with a rogues’ gallery... it would be these four.” [14:08]
- Hasen’s take on the commission:
The Internal Turmoil
- [17:43–19:46] Recap of Matt Dunlap’s (Maine Secretary of State) experience as a Democratic appointee, his being stonewalled, then suing the commission.
- Quote:
- “I was inundated with mail... begging me to resign. Don’t be a part of it. Don’t legitimize this voter suppression sham.” – Matt Dunlap [15:45]
- Commission dissolves without findings; later lawsuits reveal internal Republican collaboration and lack of transparency.
4. The Myth of Widespread Noncitizen Voter Fraud
The Kansas Case: Fish v. Kobach
- [22:33–28:28] Deep dive into Kansas’ “documentary proof of citizenship” law (DPOC) championed by Kris Kobach. At trial, the supposed evidence of noncitizen voting collapses under scrutiny.
- Memorable Courtroom Moment:
- Cross-examination exposes Kobach's expert's method: coding “foreign-sounding” names as noncitizens, such as federal Judge Carlos Murguia—demonstrably a U.S. citizen.
- “Are you aware that Carlos Murgia is a United States District Court judge who sits in this courthouse?” – Dale Ho [27:19]
- “I am not.” – Professor Jesse Richmond (expert witness) [27:29]
- Cross-examination exposes Kobach's expert's method: coding “foreign-sounding” names as noncitizens, such as federal Judge Carlos Murguia—demonstrably a U.S. citizen.
- Judge Robinson’s conclusion:
- “There is no iceberg, only an icicle created by confusion and administrative error.” [28:09]
The Zombie Myth
- [28:55–30:43] The narrative of noncitizen voting persists despite court defeats, upheld by anecdotal and dubious evidence.
- Nina Perales (MALDEF):
- “He [Kobach] was unable to come up with a single documented instance... that's pretty consistent with our experience around the United States.” [29:27]
5. Real-World Effects of Suppression—Texas Purge
- [32:10–36:45] In 2019, Texas claims 90,000 noncitizen voters; the number is based on outdated data. Quick action by civil rights lawyers reveals the majority were legitimate, naturalized citizens. Threatening letters unnecessarily intimidate and disenfranchise.
- Perales recalls:
- “It took about five minutes for everyone to figure out that Texas had used an old database... That information in no way accurately portrayed who was a US Citizen today.” [34:27]
- Some naturalized citizens vow never to vote again out of fear.
- [36:07] Quote: “A great deal of damage has already been done to immigrant voters who proudly became U.S. citizens and who now don’t want to vote.” – Nina Perales
6. The Lasting Damage and What’s Next
- [37:33] Suppression can be measured in real numbers (purgings); but the full extent—those discouraged or permanently deterred—is unknown.
- [38:16] Hasen notes:
- “If you think about it, the level of each voter, you’ve really deprived those voters of their dignity for no good reason... it has no basis to do it other than crass political calculation.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “We hear all kinds of talk of voter suppression, of voter fraud, of foreign interference, of stolen elections. And with all of this swirling around, I do worry that we’re going to get to a point where people might not accept the results of the election.” – Rick Hasen [04:30]
- “This is as though the President wanted to put together an ‘Elvis Lives’ commission and found the four people who have cited Elvis in Las Vegas in the last 20 years and put them on the commission.” – Dahlia Lithwick [14:56]
- “I was inundated with mail... begging me to resign. Don’t be a part of it. Don’t legitimize this voter suppression sham.” – Matt Dunlap [15:45]
- “Are you aware that Carlos Murgia is a United States District Court judge who sits in this courthouse?” – Dale Ho [27:19]
- “There is no iceberg, only an icicle created by confusion and administrative error.” – Judge Julie Robinson (via Hasen) [28:09]
- “A great deal of damage has already been done to immigrant voters who proudly became U.S. citizens and who now don’t want to vote.” – Nina Perales [36:07]
Timestamps for Core Segments
| Timestamp | Topic/Discussion | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:04-01:57 | Opening, stakes of 2020, link to impeachment | | 04:12-06:59 | Introduction of Rick Hasen & “Election Meltdown” themes | | 08:41-15:45 | Trump’s commission, Kobach’s influence, formation and skepticism | | 17:43-19:46 | Matt Dunlap’s sidelining, transparency issues, lawsuit, and commission's abrupt collapse | | 22:33-28:28 | Kansas voter citizenship trial (Fish v. Kobach)—collapse of noncitizen fraud claims | | 28:49-31:48 | Persistence of voter fraud myth; Nina Perales' courtroom and deposition stories | | 32:10-36:45 | Texas noncitizen voting “scandal;” purging, legal response, damage to legitimate voters | | 37:33-38:16 | Lasting consequences; unknown numbers of intimidated/deterred voters | | 38:16-end | Preview of next episode & wrap-up |
Tone and Language
The discussion is clear, urgent, and often wry—Lithwick’s dry humor (e.g., “Rule of Law Twister,” “Elvis Lives Commission”) anchors a conversation that’s deeply serious about the consequences for democracy. The speakers combine legal expertise with storytelling, making abstract threats concrete.
Summary Takeaways
- The myth of widespread voter fraud is persistent but repeatedly debunked—in practice, claims are used to justify restrictive laws and targeted voter suppression, damaging faith in elections and disenfranchising eligible citizens.
- Real threats to election integrity in 2020 include baseless rhetoric, poor administration, targeted purges, and the chilling effect of false accusations.
- The challenge is compounded by lack of transparency, hyper-partisanship, and institutional vulnerabilities—putting democratic legitimacy at risk.
- There are no quick fixes; the problem demands vigilance, legal intervention, and public awareness.
Listeners are left with the sobering realization that the greatest dangers to American elections are often homegrown—rooted in false narratives, procedural failures, and purposeful suppression rather than any genuine epidemic of fraud.