Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Election Meltdown, Part 2

Date: February 2, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guests: Rick Hasen (Professor of Law, author of Election Meltdown), Joel Kurth (Managing Editor, Bridge Michigan), Jocelyn Benson (Michigan Secretary of State)

Episode Overview

This episode, the second in the "Election Meltdown" series, explores the role of incompetence in election administration as a threat to American democracy, especially amid the highly anticipated 2020 election. While much public debate focuses on voter suppression and fraud, this discussion zeroes in on the less sensational but equally damaging risks posed by errors, outdated technology, undertrained staff, and infrastructural neglect, which can undermine trust in election results.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fragility of Election Administration (00:00–03:13)

• Rick Hasen frames election administration as one of the most complex civic tasks America faces, on par with the census or even war.
• The episode aims to engage listeners in critical thinking about election system vulnerabilities before it's too late.
• Notable Quote:

  "Our system is only going to work if people have enough confidence in it that they can accept the results." — Rick Hasen (01:39)

2. The "Weakest Link" in Election Systems (06:02–06:18)

• Hasen introduces the "weakest link axiom": voters' confidence is only as strong as the most error-prone part of the system.
• Detroit's 2016 election serves as a focal example, where small administrative mistakes ballooned into major controversies.

3. Detroit's 2016 Meltdown: Anatomy of Administrative Error (06:18–13:57)

• Joel Kurth recounts years of systemic problems in Detroit elections: ballot misplacement, power outages, and chronic counting issues.
• In 2016, over half of Detroit’s 600+ precincts had discrepancies between poll book sign-ins and ballots, making them ineligible for recount under Michigan law.
  • Example: Precinct 152—52 physical ballots found, but 307 votes logged. Uncounted ballots located after records closed—fueling conspiracies.
• Notable Quote:

  "More than half ... counts were off by five or more, which means that they couldn't be subject to recount by Michigan law ... doesn’t give a lot of faith in the system." — Joel Kurth (07:47)

4. Media, Conspiracy, and Public Perception (10:12–13:15)

• Media outlets (right, left, and center) sensationalized the Detroit discrepancies, spawning narratives of fraud.
• The reality, verified by Michigan’s State Board of Elections: “mass incompetence,” not deliberate malfeasance.
• Notable Quote:

  "Nothing could be less interesting than talking about tubs of uncounted ballots. And yet who the next president is could turn on it." — Rick Hasen (10:56)

5. Systemic and Racial Subtext (13:57–18:29)

• Disproportionate scrutiny falls on large, urban, majority-minority jurisdictions like Detroit and Broward County, FL.
• Donald Trump’s public attacks on election officials in such areas blend legitimate concerns with racially charged rhetoric.
• Notable Quote:

  "When Democrats have problems with incompetence, they're accused of voter fraud ... and Republicans look the other way when the incompetence is happening in Republican areas." — Rick Hasen (17:46)

• Problems of disinvestment and complexity are often magnified in urban centers but echo issues found in rural precincts, just at larger scale.

6. Persistent Myths and Erosion of Trust (18:29–22:13)

• Incompetence breeds conspiracy across the political spectrum (not just among partisans), but over time these narratives “stick.”
• The delay between election errors and official explanations allows doubts to fester before facts can catch up.
• Protracted vote counting in urban areas (“Big Blue Shift”) further fuels unfounded suspicions, exploited in political rhetoric.
• Notable Quote:

  "It's easier to believe a conspiracy theory than to believe that incompetence is the sole cause." — Dahlia Lithwick (18:29)

7. Room for Optimism: Institutional Responses (23:09–27:19)

• Jocelyn Benson (MI Secretary of State) outlines reforms: greater poll worker training, improved backup plans, investments in resiliency.
• Emphasizes transparent, multi-level preparation for Election Day emergencies, including cyberattacks and power outages.
• Realistic but hopeful: the decentralization of election authority limits her control, but she aims for coordination and transparency.
• Notable Quote:

  "Our preparation ... really relies on us to be close to the ground on election day and prepared for ... all these potential scenarios." — Jocelyn Benson (25:43)

8. Enduring Vulnerabilities & The "Election Administrator's Prayer" (28:57–30:48)

• Joel Kurth is skeptical major breakthroughs will occur: “It always comes down to just sort of like roll the dice in Michigan.”
• Routine investment in election infrastructure is rare because problems remain “invisible”—until they’re not.
• Rick Hasen closes with the “Election Administrator’s Prayer”:

  “Lord, let this election not be close.” (29:55)

• When elections are razor-thin, every error is magnified, and system failures become national crises.

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Aside from going to war or maybe the census, holding an election is the most complicated thing we do as a country."
  — Rick Hasen (00:00)

• "Small mistakes in election administration can snowball into big problems. Big mistakes can throw something as huge as who won the presidency into question."
  — Rick Hasen (03:25)

• "You just expect them to work until they don't."
  — Joel Kurth, on election infrastructure (00:07, 28:57)

• "There was no evidence that Brenda Snipes ever tried to steal an election. There was only evidence of incompetence."
  — Rick Hasen (16:31)

• "Election officials ... always say: it's not the crime, it’s the cover-up."
  — Rick Hasen (27:57)

• "It’s not a sexy subject until it all falls apart."
  — Joel Kurth (28:57)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• 00:00–01:39: Framing the complexity and stakes of U.S. elections
• 06:02–10:12: Real-world recount stories from Detroit; breakdown of process failures
• 10:56–13:57: Impact of mechanical, social, and administrative errors on public trust
• 14:10–17:46: Political and racial dynamics in perceptions of election mismanagement
• 18:29–22:13: How incompetence seeds conspiracy theories and undermines democracy
• 23:09–27:19: Michigan’s Secretary of State on reforms and realistic limitations
• 28:57–30:48: Summary reflections; why closer elections multiply risks

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is earnest, often darkly humorous, but underpinned by an urgent warning: election errors are not just bureaucratic slip-ups—they’re crucibles in which public trust is lost or preserved. Both guests and host blend skepticism and hope, reflecting on the limits of reform in a highly decentralized, under-resourced system. While technical errors can create the appearance of malfeasance, deliberate fraud remains exceedingly rare—yet perception, fueled by media and partisan rhetoric, can be just as damaging.

Conclusion

This episode paints a sobering picture: while voter suppression and fraud grab the spotlight, it is day-to-day administrative errors, aging infrastructure, and fractured oversight that most threaten the legitimacy of American elections. The key message: robust democracy requires relentless maintenance, transparency, and investment—before, not after, things fall apart.