Podcast Summary

Podcast: Amicus with Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts
Episode: Election Meltdown, Part 4
Date: February 15, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guests: Rick Hasen (UC Irvine Law Professor), Carol Anderson (Professor of African American Studies, Emory University)

Overview:

This episode, the fourth in Amicus's "Election Meltdown" series, explores the dangers and consequences of political rhetoric around "stolen elections," especially how it intersects with policies, historical context, and the undermining of voter confidence. Host Dahlia Lithwick, joined by election law expert Rick Hasen and historian Carol Anderson, focuses on whether it’s ever appropriate to describe elections as "stolen," how this rhetoric shapes public perception (and manipulates power), and the real-world consequences of voter suppression—with Georgia’s 2018 gubernatorial election serving as a case study.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Rhetoric Shapes American Elections

• Setting the Stage ([00:32–01:08]):
  • The episode is introduced as an inquiry into possible failure points in the 2020 U.S. election, considering scenarios ranging from vote purges to disinformation.
  • Hasen says, “Our system is only going to work if people have enough confidence in it that they can accept the results.” ([01:08])
• The panel agrees: The language leaders use when they claim elections are “stolen” can damage public trust, sometimes irreparably.

Notable Quote:

• Dahlia Lithwick: “What, I ask, could possibly go wrong with November’s election?” ([00:33])

2. The History and Purpose of “Stolen Election” Claims

• Trump’s Rhetoric and Its Precedent ([03:30–06:21]):
  • Playbacks of Trump’s speeches repeatedly warning about “stolen elections”; compared (by Anderson) to segregationist rhetoric from the Jim Crow era.
  • Anderson draws a direct parallel between Trump’s calls to “watch at the polls” and historic efforts to intimidate Black voters.
• Contextualization:
  • Carol Anderson: “Yes, because he will steal it... this is about voter intimidation.” ([05:20])

Notable Quotes:

• Carol Anderson: “That watching is about intimidation of minority voters... putting communities back in their place as if their place is not as American citizens who have the right to vote.” ([06:31])

3. From Rhetoric to Suppression: The Mechanics and Motives

• Voter Fraud Narratives ([08:47–11:39]):
  • Anderson details how claims of voter fraud provide pretext for restrictive laws—drawing a line from 1890s Mississippi’s poll taxes and literacy tests to today’s voter IDs and purges.
  • “Voter fraud to me is the false bottom, the false foundation for this enormous architecture... to block key segments of the American population from the ballot box.” ([08:47])
• Modern-Day Suppression:
  • The same rationales appear in today’s policies (e.g., Georgia’s “exact match” law, poll closures, gerrymandering).
  • Anderson: “What they are designed to do is to wipe millions off of the voter rolls... lethal to democracy.” ([12:22])

4. Legal Landscape: The End of the Consent Decree

• Historical Guardrails Removed ([15:31–18:12]):
  • Discussion of the 1982–2018 Republican National Committee consent decree, which barred “ballot security” measures targeting minorities.
  • Now, with the decree expired, Hasen worries about renewed efforts at mass-scale intimidation and “poll watching.”
• Rhetoric Leads to Action:
  • “Words sometimes lead to actions... Words make people think the election is up for grabs and that there’s going to be some kind of struggle to try to control polling places.” — Rick Hasen ([18:33])

5. The Georgia 2018 Gubernatorial Race: Democracy on Trial

• Case Study—Election Suppression in Action ([20:08–28:00]):
  • Carol Anderson outlines how Brian Kemp, both Secretary of State and gubernatorial candidate, presided over widespread roll purges, polling place closures, missing ballots, and machine failures—largely in Black communities.
  • “It just, it reeked of all that is wrong in the system... the onus for protecting the right to vote on the individual and not on the state. And that is a massive game change.” ([20:08–28:00])
• Impact:
  • “In that withholding of the 53,000 voter registration cards in October of 2018, 70% of those withheld were African American.” — Carol Anderson ([28:00])

Notable Quotes:

• Sherrod Brown: “If Stacey Abrams doesn’t win in Georgia, they stole it. It’s clear.” ([28:15])
• Stacey Abrams: “This is not a speech of concession, because concession means to acknowledge an action is right, true, or proper.” ([28:27])

6. Is the Language of ‘Stolen’ Elections Ever Justified?

• Hazards of Overheated Rhetoric ([29:01–38:26]):
  • Hasen expresses discomfort with Democrats describing the 2018 Georgia election as “stolen,” arguing:
    • (1) Social science cannot prove a different outcome would have prevailed.
    • (2) The focus should remain on voter dignity and individual rights.
    • (3) The term “stolen” could impair public trust in the entire electoral system.
  • “Let’s not call elections stolen. It’s going to undermine people’s confidence in the overall process if we start using this language when it can’t be proven.” ([31:01])
• Counterpoint—The Lived Reality:
  • Anderson responds by calling for rhetoric that matches the reality: “...a full blown assault on one of the key pillars of American democracy. And we have to be able to then say, and there will be consequences for this.” ([33:12])
  • She contends that requiring irrefutable, state-controlled evidence makes it impossible to fairly challenge bad acts: “When the ability to discern the evidence... is solely in the control of those who may have done it, then using irrefutable evidence as the benchmark becomes really fraught...” ([38:26])

7. Moving Forward: Voting as Resistance and the Path to Reform

• Persisting and Resisting in the Face of Suppression ([41:24–47:10]):
  • Lithwick frames the dilemma: Voting requires acting with faith in a system that persistently targets and disenfranchises minorities and marginalized groups.
  • Anderson’s call: “To not vote is to allow those who really do treat you as if you aren’t a viable human being... The fight is there and the fight is in the vote.”
  • Resilience, not optimism: The episode closes with both guests agreeing that, despite a rigged system, organized, persistent voting is the most powerful answer available.
• Practical Preparation:
  • Anderson advises voters to protect themselves—check registration status, bring supplies to the polls, document everything.

Notable Quotes:

• “When you have different policymakers, then you have a very different reality about how they value the vote, how they value democracy, and how they value you.” — Carol Anderson ([42:42])
• “It’s not a message of optimism... it’s a message of resiliency.” — Rick Hasen ([47:27])

Major Segments & Timestamps

• [00:32] Introduction of the slippery topic: election integrity rhetoric
• [03:30–06:21] Trump’s rhetoric and its historical parallels
• [08:47–12:22] Architecture of voter suppression: from Mississippi to modern times
• [15:31–18:12] The consent decree and its expiration
• [20:08–28:00] Georgia 2018: a ground-zero example of suppression
• [28:15–28:27] Reactions from Sherrod Brown and Stacey Abrams
• [29:01–38:26] Debating "stolen" election language—risks and moral imperatives
• [41:24–47:10] The moral and practical case for voting amid adversity
• [47:27–48:03] Closing reflections on resiliency and the struggle for fair elections

Memorable Moments & Quotes

“When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” — Dahlia Lithwick, quoting Maya Angelou ([03:30])

“What they are designed to do is to wipe millions off of the voter rolls... lethal to democracy.” — Carol Anderson ([12:22])

“Let’s not call elections stolen. It’s going to undermine people’s confidence in the overall process if we start using this language when it can’t be proven.” — Rick Hasen ([31:01])

“Where we are right now as a society is that we have one side that fights by the marquis, the Queensbury rules, and another side that is straight wwe, right, where anything goes.” — Carol Anderson ([33:12])

“…the fight is there, and the fight is in the vote. ... Because in one of the things that I’ve said here is ... even in the midst of all of this voter suppression, a candidate who was about how do I meet the needs of the people actually won.” — Carol Anderson ([42:42])

“It’s not a message of optimism... it’s a message of resiliency.” — Rick Hasen ([47:27])

Conclusion

This episode confronts the crisis of faith in American democracy exacerbated by slippery, inflammatory election rhetoric and real-world policies that suppress minority votes. The panel debates the fine line between honest description and dangerous delegitimization when talking about “stolen” elections, with Carol Anderson providing searing historical context and Hasen warning about the effect on public trust. Ultimately, they agree: continual participation in the system, vigilance, and legal action are the best forms of resistance—at least for now.

For listeners interested in the ongoing legal battles and reform strategies, and for a deeper dive into these issues, see Carol Anderson’s book “One Person, No Vote” and Rick Hasen’s “Election Meltdown.”