Podcast Summary: Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick

Episode: Election Meltdown, Part 5

Date: February 22, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guests: Andrew Gillum, Danielle Citron, Dale Ho, Rick Hasen

Main Theme & Purpose

This special live episode wraps up the “Election Meltdown” series, focusing on solutions to the urgent challenges facing American election integrity in 2020 and beyond. With an all-star panel of legal scholars, voting rights advocates, and political leaders, the discussion explores the roots of declining public trust in elections, the compounding crises affecting voters (especially in marginalized communities), technological threats like deepfakes, and, most importantly, what can be done—locally and nationally—to protect democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why “Election Meltdown”—Setting the Stage

• Declining Trust in Elections:
  Rick Hasen (05:21):

  • Voter suppression and the perception of fraud.
  • Election incompetence at local levels, often affecting big cities.
  • “Dirty tricks” and actual proven fraud cases.
  • Incendiary rhetoric about “stolen” or “rigged” elections, coming from both parties (08:42).
  • The need to ensure people accept outcomes even when disappointed.

• The Rug Analogy:
  Dahlia Lithwick introduces a recurring stage joke about “throwing worries under the rug,” symbolizing how persistent and ignored these election fears have become.

Election Disasters Aren’t Isolated—Who Truly Gets Hurt?

• Racial Inequality and Election Access:
  Andrew Gillum (10:53):
  • “It isn’t a crisis only when it’s in Iowa, it’s a crisis when it’s in any city, county around the country and it’s a problem that’s far too pervasive in too many poor communities and communities of color.”
  • Poorly staffed polling places and voter roll purges disproportionately affect minorities and the poor.
  • The “crisis” of delayed Iowa results was a luxury compared to everyday obstacles in minority communities.

The Legal Front—What’s Being Fought (and What’s at Stake)

• Disenfranchisement Litigation:
  Dale Ho (14:46):
  • Details the ACLU’s work to overturn permanent voting bans for felons in Florida.
  • “One out of ten adult citizens in the state, more than twenty percent of the adult black population of the state of Florida” (15:40) were disenfranchised.
  • Court victories restoring rights, but new legislative requirements (repayment of all fees/fines) are creating mass confusion and a chilling effect.
  • The margin for error is razor-thin in Florida; small changes tip elections (28:05).

The Meta-Problem: Disinformation & Deepfakes

• Deepfakes and Misinformation:
  Danielle Citron (20:39):

  • Explains rapid advances in deepfake technology, moving from pornographic uses to political dangers.
  • “Audio deepfakes (are now) impossible to tell ... the smartest of people, the greatest experts can’t tell the fake from the real.”
  • The greater threat is the “liar’s dividend”—people simply stop believing any news (23:08, Rick Hasen: “We just come to disbelieve everything ...truthful information [included]”).

• Impact on Voter Confusion:
  Andrew Gillum & Dale Ho

  • Legislative back-and-forth and legal ambiguity around voter rights further paralyzes would-be voters (26:31).
  • Social media, news media dramatization, and unclear rules make fraud and suspicion feel omnipresent.

Nightmare Scenarios for 2020

• Delayed/results chaos:
  Rick Hasen (30:13):

  • Absentee ballots mean Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc., could take days to fully count, creating a window for premature victory claims and “dueling electors” (electoral college chaos).

• Deepfake “October Surprises”:
  Danielle Citron (32:22):

  • Fears a viral, last-minute deepfake video swaying the electorate or undermining legitimacy.

• Cumulative Impact of “Small Things”:
  Andrew Gillum (34:11):

  • Death-by-a-thousand-cuts: voter purges, signature mismatches, long lines.

• Structural Dissonance:
  Dale Ho (36:01):

  • Increasing mismatch between popular vote and electoral college, with demographic population shifts.

Solutions & Actionable Steps

Short-Term (Before November 2020)

• Managing Expectations about Results:
  Rick Hasen (39:57):

  • “A good election count takes time. Maybe you’ll have to wait a day or two.”
  • Media should promote transparency, admit errors, and avoid sensationalism.

• Absentee Ballot Processing Fixes:
  Dale Ho (42:19):

  • Push for laws allowing early counting of mail-in ballots (ex: Michigan).

• Local Citizen Engagement:
  Andrew Gillum (48:09), Rick Hasen (51:18):

  • Get involved in voter registration drives—especially in states like Florida with massive unregistered eligible voters.
  • Volunteer for “election protection” programs—help monitor polls, educate voters, and pressure local election officials to adopt best practices.
  • “We as citizens can do [the election protection piece]. Since our elections are run by citizens … we basically are going to be the ones that screw this up … or get it right.” (Andrew Gillum, 48:09)

• Election Audits and Public Pressure:

  • Demand post-election audits, look for paper trails, and hold local officials accountable.

Medium-Long Term

• Tech Regulation & Transparency:
  Danielle Citron (45:13):

  • Stronger privacy and transparency rules for political ads and platform algorithms.
  • Reform Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act to hold platforms more accountable for “bad samaritan” behaviors.
  • “Introduce transparency and accountability into these sort of algorithms of exploitation and manipulation … which is for their bottom line. It’s bad for democracy.” (Danielle Citron, 47:32)

• Electoral Federalism as Opportunity:

  • Decentralization prevents single points of failure, but requires more vigilance and participation at the local level.

Existential Reflection and Call to Action

• Don’t Fall into Despair:
  Dahlia Lithwick, Rick Hasen, Andrew Gillum
  • “These are systems problems, largely, that we can solve—but it requires confidence that systems work.” (Dahlia Lithwick, 08:42)
  • “If people are working this hard to keep your vote from counting, don’t you think they know something about your vote?...You don’t lay down and give that up. You stand up … and you fight back.” (Andrew Gillum, 60:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It isn’t a crisis only when it’s in Iowa, it’s a crisis when it’s in any city, county around the country and it’s a problem that’s far too pervasive in too many poor communities and communities of color.” — Andrew Gillum [00:04, 10:53]

• “The greatest danger of a deep fake was … we just come to disbelieve everything…truthful information [included].” — Rick Hasen [23:08]

• “Voter confusion is … very much a goal of folks on the other side...” — Dale Ho [26:31]

• “All I want from America is for her to do what she said on paper.” — Andrew Gillum, quoting Dr. King [59:54]

• “Don’t be complacent...talk to your neighbors, especially if you disagree politically with them, because we’re in a very polarized moment right now…” — Rick Hasen [67:02]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Overview and Series Recap: (05:04–08:42)
• Election Inequality & Iowa/Florida Contrast: (10:53–13:56)
• Voting Rights Litigation in Florida: (14:46–19:25)
• Deepfakes & Misinformation Threats: (20:36–24:02)
• Voter Confusion from Laws & Tech: (26:31–28:03)
• Impact of Margins in Florida: (28:05–29:06)
• Nightmare 2020 Election Scenarios: (30:13–38:47)
• Solutions—Short & Long Term: (39:46–51:56)
• Existential Lessons and Hope: (59:54–63:06)
• Action Steps Lightning Round: (65:37–67:38)

Final Action Steps for Listeners

What can you do between now and November?

• Register new voters: “Register, register, register.” (Gillum, 65:37; Citron, 66:08)
• Volunteer: Join election protection efforts through the ACLU, Lawyers’ Committee, or local groups (Ho, 66:19)
• Educate: Talk to people about media literacy and being smart news consumers (Citron, 66:08)
• Engage locally: Monitor your local officials and processes; demand transparency and audits (Hasen, 67:02)

Above all:
Stay engaged, refuse despair, and believe in fixing the system—one vote, one neighbor, and one community at a time.

Tone:
Candid, urgent, occasionally darkly humorous but ultimately hopeful—every panelist insists that action is not only possible but vital to sustaining democracy.