Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts

Episode: "He Quit the Bench to Raise the Alarm"

Date: November 15, 2025
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guests: Judge Mark L. Wolf (retired U.S. District Judge, Massachusetts); Rob Bonta (California Attorney General)

Episode Overview

This episode explores two extraordinary voices confronting the challenges facing American democracy and the rule of law. First, Judge Mark Wolf, who recently stepped down from the federal bench, discusses why he felt compelled to leave his lifetime judicial appointment to speak out against current attacks on judicial independence and democratic norms—particularly by the Trump administration. Second, California Attorney General Rob Bonta details how state AGs are fighting back in courts against what they see as unlawful executive overreach, with a focus on food assistance and militarization of domestic law enforcement.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Judicial Independence and Rule of Law Under Assault: Judge Wolf explains his difficult decision to retire and publicly "raise the alarm" about a breakdown in legal norms.
• The Role of State AGs in Checking Federal Power: Rob Bonta illuminates fast-paced, coordinated litigation efforts to push back against what he calls the Trump administration's violations of constitutional and statutory limits, with major recent battles over food benefits and federalized policing.
• The Broader Stakes for American Democracy: Both guests emphasize the fundamental need for citizens and officials to insist on impartial courts and lawful conduct from the executive branch.

Key Segments, Insights, and Quotes

[00:57] – [03:22]

Setting the Stage: A Moment of Reckoning

• Momentum of Crisis: Lithwick highlights growing calls for accountability and a sense that America is "at the beginning of some sort of end" regarding threats to democracy.
• Congressional Action: Rep. Adelita Grijalva’s speech elevates the voices of Epstein survivors and questions the persistent evasion of justice by Donald Trump and others.

  “Our democracy only works when everyone has a voice... It’s past time for Congress to restore its role as a check and balance.” — Adelita Grijalva (01:53)

[05:13] – [23:54]

Judge Mark Wolf: Why He Stepped Down to Speak Out

• Judicial Silence, Public Danger: Wolf describes “almost daily outrageous, egregious things” done by the Trump administration that “are an assault on the rule of law in democracy” (07:26). He retired to be free to “join others and try to do anything I can to protect the rule of law, the democracy, and to advocate for judges who…are muzzled” (08:15).

  “...it was the almost daily outrageous, egregious things that the president and members of his administration were doing that are an assault on the rule of law in democracy and the fundamental ideal of equal justice under law that finally brought me to agree that I couldn't any longer bear to be silent.” — Judge Wolf (07:26)

• Lessons from Watergate: Recounts the post-Watergate reforms—details Attorney General Edward Levi’s cultural and legal transformation of DOJ, including independence from partisan interests, informant guidelines, and the birth of the FISA court (09:58-17:20).

  “What Donald Trump is doing is diametrically the opposite. What Richard Nixon did periodically and secretly...President Trump does repeatedly, regularly and openly. And to me, that is profoundly disturbing…to prosecute your political enemies…give a free pass on... people close to you.” — Judge Wolf (16:35)

• Corruption, Double Standards, and Congressional Responsibility: Discusses how, unlike previous eras, serious allegations (e.g., involving Tom Homan) are not being investigated, and Congress should demand transparency from DOJ (19:10-23:54).

[25:30] – [32:36]

Why Judges Remain Silent — and the Costs

• The Code of Judicial Conduct: Wolf explains that judges are prohibited from making statements that might call their impartiality into question, to preserve public faith in judicial decisions (26:20-29:45).

  “...we ask people to accept judicial decisions peacefully and as authoritative and legitimate. And it's critical that people have confidence that the judges are impartial…” — Judge Wolf (27:08)

• Erosion of Institutional Norms: When judges are attacked as “crooked,” they cannot publicly defend themselves, risking public acceptance of presidential lawlessness.

[32:36] – [38:47]

What Can Be Done and Advice for Judges

• Chorus, Not Soloist: Wolf hopes to “join a chorus” of voices defending the judiciary, plans to write, speak, and assist in litigation (30:38-32:36).

• Advice to Judges:

  “Do your job properly…A judge’s job is to get a legally correct decision...And then you have to rely on the rest of us to try to counter the unjustified criticism…” — Judge Wolf (33:47)

• Advice to Citizens:

  "...the most important thing they can do is insist that the president obey court orders, even if he doesn't agree with the outcome, obey court orders…" — Judge Wolf (36:04)

• Quote from Seamus Heaney (cited by Lithwick):

  “...sometimes the longed for tidal wave of justice can rise up and hope and history rhyme.” (35:26)

[41:39] – [65:46]

Attorney General Rob Bonta: The States Strike Back

• The SNAP Litigation: Multiple state AGs, led by Bonta, litigated to force the federal government to fund food assistance during the shutdown, resisting what Bonta called “a cruel policy by design to leverage vulnerable Americans” (43:47-47:00).

  “So we went to court with a simple proposition: that the SNAP program is an entitlement program. The law says that everyone who's eligible … shall receive the benefits...” — Rob Bonta (44:25)

• The Dangers of “Emergency Powers” Abuse: Bonta critiques how the federal executive manufactures crises as pretexts to seize more power—deploying troops, imposing tariffs, and more (50:41-54:07).

  "Emergency powers beget emergencies...when we say there's an emergency, courts you can't second guess us, there's no judicial review..." — Rob Bonta (51:41)

[57:48] – [65:46]

Militarization and Legal Reality vs. Media Narrative

• Federalization of the National Guard: Bonta describes legal challenges to the deployment of troops in states like Illinois and Oregon, and details faith in the judiciary to distinguish fact from political theater (58:49-61:09).

  “He's looking literally at peaceful streets and calling them war ravaged and saying, Don't believe your own eyes...Just take my word for it. And justices can't stand for that...” — Rob Bonta (60:29)

• Media Misinformation vs. Judicial Fact-Finding: The chasm between the legal findings of judges and Fox News’ distortion illustrates the challenge of maintaining rule of law in a post-truth era.

  “The good thing about courts of law is that they are sanitized places free of that manipulation, free of that misinformation and disinformation. All that noise falls away…” — Rob Bonta (63:15)

[66:00] – [78:33]

The Pace and Philosophy of State Litigation

• Explosion in Litigation: The Trump administration’s “shock and awe” tactics mean AGs must litigate rapidly and often (69:28).

  “If Trump breaks the law and hurts our state…the state of California, we sue him. If he doesn't break the law, we don't. So he decides.” — Rob Bonta (69:53)

• Elections and security: Bonta expresses deep concern about federal interference in voting and outlines ongoing preparations to respond instantly to any unlawful federal moves (71:32-74:42).

  “As Trump's popularity goes down, as the midterms become more and more a likelihood for Democrats to prevail in, I think…we will see an increasing desperation and potentially desperate actions that are unlawful that follow.” — Rob Bonta (74:19)

• State AGs as Modern Bulwarks: The rise of state AGs as coordinators and leaders in defending constitutional order, federalism, and checks and balances is likened to a new constitutional "check" (75:48).

  “...it's the brilliance of the design of our American democracy in the US Constitution that there are checks and balances all over the Constitution and they can be ignited and used at the appropriate time.” — Rob Bonta (77:13)

[78:33] – [80:17]

Crowds, Courts, Courage

• Everyone Has a Role: Bonta closes with a call for “crowds, courts, and courage,” urging citizens to join in upholding the law and pressing for accountability.

  “...everyone in this country has a role and I would even say a duty and an obligation, but certainly an opportunity to exercise the most potent power that there is, which is people power…” — Rob Bonta (78:53)

Notable Quotes & Their Timestamps

• Judge Mark Wolf:

  • “I couldn’t any longer bear to be silent about what I have to say…” (07:26)
  • “What Donald Trump is doing is diametrically the opposite [of Nixon]. What Richard Nixon did periodically and secretly...President Trump does repeatedly, regularly and openly…” (16:35)
  • “A judge’s job is to get a legally correct decision...Then you have to rely on the rest of us to try to counter the unjustified criticism…” (33:47)
  • “The most important thing they can do is insist that the president obey court orders, even if he doesn't agree with the outcome...” (36:04)

• Rob Bonta:

  • “[We sued Trump] to feed hungry Americans. You know, period, full stop.” (43:47)
  • “So we must be fast in response as the attorneys general and courts must be fast because they are receiving these cases with urgency.” (67:19)
  • “If Trump breaks the law and hurts our state…we sue him. If he doesn't break the law, we don't. So he decides.” (69:53)
  • “I would even say a duty and an obligation, but certainly an opportunity to exercise the most potent power that there is, which is people power…” (78:53)

Flow and Tone

Throughout, the episode is deeply serious, passionate, and urgent. Lithwick and her guests display a clear, unfiltered style—speaking plainly about the threats facing institutional norms and the dangers of executive lawlessness. Both Wolf and Bonta root their arguments in the specifics of law, policymaking, and lived institutional history, while sounding a clarion call for civic engagement and public vigilance.

Key Takeaways

• Judicial independence is under sustained and unprecedented attack, and breaking silence comes at high personal and institutional cost.
• Democracy’s defense is now being led from the states—through creative, assertive litigation and coalition-building amongst AGs.
• Rapid response and public vigilance are essential to counter both the flood of unlawful executive action and media disinformation.
• Everyone has a part to play—in the courts, the streets, and the court of public opinion—to demand and defend the rule of law.

This summary is intended to provide an accessible, thorough overview of the episode’s rich content, with direct attributions, key moments, and thematic structure for readers who may not have been able to listen.