Podcast Summary: Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | "Inside Impeachment"

Episode Date: January 30, 2021
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Daniel Goldman (former Senior Advisor and Director of Investigations, House Intelligence Committee)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the upcoming Senate impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump following the January 6, 2021, Capitol riot. Host Dahlia Lithwick and her guest, Daniel Goldman, dissect the legal, historical, and political significance of proceeding with an impeachment trial that is anticipated to end in acquittal. They also explore the nuances and broader implications of holding leaders accountable, the challenges of prosecuting complex political cases, and the difference between legal and political processes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature and Purpose of Impeachment Trials

• Impeachment's Value Beyond Conviction
  Goldman emphasizes that pursuing impeachment—even without a likely conviction—is essential for providing a public record, accountability, and historical reference.

  "Sometimes you just have to do the right thing, even if it's futile, even if it won't accomplish the ultimate goal."
  — Daniel Goldman [05:44]

• Historical and Civic Importance
  He argues that future generations and leaders will look back at these moments to discern right from wrong, using them as guardrails.

  "...there's historical value in it.... It will teach future leaders, future representatives, future citizens about what is right and what is wrong and provide some guardrails..."
  — Daniel Goldman [05:44]

2. Lessons from the First Trump Impeachment

• Vindication after January 6 Events
  There is a sense of vindication regarding the warnings offered during the first impeachment: if unchecked, Trump's behavior could escalate.

  "...people don't learn lessons when they get bad behavior. And so the idea that somehow Donald Trump had learned his lesson because he was impeached and then acquitted in the Senate was really far fetched."
  — Daniel Goldman [08:22]

• Senators’ Justifications and Trump’s Actions
  Goldman critiques senators' previous arguments that voters should judge Trump, pointing out Trump later tried to overturn the will of the voters, which crossed yet another line.

  "Well, Donald Trump tried to overturn the will of the voters..."
  — Daniel Goldman [08:22]

3. Comparing the First and Second Impeachments

• Complex vs. Simple Narratives
  The Ukraine case was legally complex and hard to condense, whereas the January 6 insurrection is a simple, visceral story that is easily understood by all.

  "Everyone witnessed the Capitol building... was stormed and there was rioting and mobs and murder and killing and people dying and injured. It is so tangible and so real from the video..."
  — Daniel Goldman [12:19]

• Emotional Impact and Persuasion
  Goldman stresses the importance of evoking the senators’ and public’s emotional memories of that day as central to the prosecution.

  "...the key for Jamie Raskin and the House managers will be to trigger those same emotions that the senators felt and put them in the average American person just watching on television."
  — Daniel Goldman [12:19]

4. The Uniqueness and Limitations of the Senate Trial

• Political, Not Legal, Process
  The Senate impeachment trial is inherently political, lacking the procedural rigor of a courtroom. Senators are judges, jury, and sometimes victims.

  "...it doesn't do anyone a service to start to make analogies to a courtroom trial... It's not a courtroom trial. There are no rules of evidence. There are no restrictions."
  — Daniel Goldman [24:07]

• Republican "Unconstitutional" Argument
  Many Republicans have coalesced around the notion that the trial is unconstitutional since Trump is no longer president.

  "His presence and the chief justice's absence demonstrate that this is not a trial of the president, but of a private citizen..."
  — Sen. Rand Paul (clip played by Dahlia Lithwick) [20:01]
  "...the weight of the evidence is... pretty clear that the Rand Paul theory of unconstitutionality is incorrect."
  — Daniel Goldman [21:19]

• Senators as Victims and Judges
  A unique aspect of this trial is that senators themselves are both the "victims" and the judges, something unheard of in standard judicial practice.

  "These senators, who are all victims of this... impeachable crime, are going to be sitting in judgment... That would never happen in a courtroom. But that's the nature of this beast..."
  — Daniel Goldman [24:07, repeated from [00:05]]

5. Evidence and Legal Analogies

• Premeditation vs. Incitement
  Lithwick and Goldman discuss whether extensive pre-planning of the riot absolves Trump; Goldman argues the opposite—that Trump's knowledge of intent actually strengthens the case against him.

  "...if you could show definitively... that Donald Trump knew of the very public premeditated plans... and he went out and said what he said anyway... that's a pretty strong criminal case..."
  — Daniel Goldman [17:22]

• Mob Boss Parallel
  Drawing on his experience prosecuting organized crime, Goldman compares Trump’s style of incitement to that of mob bosses, who rarely give direct orders but convey intent clearly to those willing to act.

  "The parallels of Donald Trump to mob bosses are rampant, are just overflowing."
  — Daniel Goldman [31:24]

• Intent and Actions
  Trump’s defense that he used the word "peacefully" is insufficient, Goldman argues, as intent is demonstrated by the broader context and actions before, during, and after the riot.

  "It's not a function of what the actual words are. It's what the understanding of those words are."
  — Daniel Goldman [31:24]
  "I don't think it's a persuasive defense to say I said peacefully and therefore that's what I meant..."
  — Daniel Goldman [35:02]

6. Scope and Strategy of the Impeachment Article

• One Article, Many Actions
  Goldman defends the decision to proceed with a single, broad impeachment article, asserting it is expansive enough to capture the full breadth of Trump’s conduct.

  "...the article is drafted sufficiently broadly by specifically referencing the Raffensperger call. But to include that conduct, the type of conduct that was designed to essentially overthrow an election..."
  — Daniel Goldman [40:05]

7. Republican Complicity and the Challenge of Addressing It

• Limits of the Senate Trial
  Goldman advises against using the trial to address the broader question of Republican members' complicity, suggesting such matters are best dealt with separately to maintain the trial’s focus.

  "...if you want to be focused on Donald Trump... I think you will get Republicans back up if you start to lump Donald Trump in with every Republican..."
  — Daniel Goldman [45:15]

8. The Case for Pursuing Impeachment Despite Predicted Acquittal

• Deterrence and Historical Record
  Goldman insists on the necessity of impeachment for deterring future anti-democratic behavior, establishing a moral standard, and putting everyone’s stance on record.

  "There are a couple of concepts that are critical here. One is deterrence. One is a moral compulsion within our democracy to lay down a marker that this kind of... conduct will not be accepted in the future. And finally, you got to put everyone on record as to whether they think this kind of behavior is okay or it's not okay."
  — Daniel Goldman [48:04]

• International Message
  He also sees impeachment as vital for signaling to the world that the events of January 6 are not what the U.S. stands for.

  "...there's a message to the world that we need to send, which is that what happened on January 6 is not what our country is about."
  — Daniel Goldman [49:10]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Goldman on Impeachment’s Purpose:
  “Sometimes you just have to do the right thing, even if it's futile, even if it's hard, even if it won't accomplish the ultimate goal that you hope to accomplish.”
  — [05:44]

• On Senators as Victims and Judges:
  “These senators, who are all victims of this... impeachable crime, are going to be sitting in judgment as to whether or not Donald Trump should be disqualified from future office because he incited the riot that ultimately jeopardized their lives. That would never happen in a courtroom. But that's the nature of this beast.”
  — [24:07] (see also [00:05])

• Mob Boss Analogy:
  “The parallels of Donald Trump to mob bosses are rampant, are just overflowing.”
  — [31:24]

• On the Importance of Accountability:
  “You got to put everyone on record as to whether they think this kind of behavior is okay or it's not okay.”
  — [48:04]

Key Timestamps

• 00:05–00:33: Daniel Goldman introduces the peculiarity of having senators as both victims and jurors.
• 03:15–05:44: Discussion of why impeachment is important, even when conviction is unlikely.
• 08:22: Goldman explains why he was unsurprised by Trump’s actions on January 6.
• 12:19: Comparing the narratives of the first and second impeachments.
• 17:22: Lithwick and Goldman discuss whether premeditation by rioters helps or hurts Trump’s defense.
• 20:01: Clip of Sen. Rand Paul’s unconstitutional argument.
• 21:19–24:07: Political vs. legal adjudication in the Senate trial.
• 31:24: Mob boss analogy.
• 35:02–38:10: Discussion of Trump’s intent and the importance of his failure to act during the riot.
• 40:05: Why the single article of impeachment is broad enough.
• 45:15: The limits of addressing Republican complicity in the impeachment trial.
• 48:04–49:10: Final case for impeachment as a tool of deterrence, historical record, and international message.

Tone & Style

The conversation is deeply analytical, legally nuanced, yet accessible—balancing both technical and moral arguments. Lithwick’s probing questions and Goldman’s measured, insightful responses maintain a serious, thoughtful tone, with occasional moments of dry wit (e.g., the "annual holiday" quip about impeachment). The overarching mood reflects concern for democratic norms, the challenges of partisan politics, and the gravity of holding leaders to account.

Summary Takeaway

Despite the Senate trial’s likely outcome of acquittal, the episode makes clear that proceeding with Trump’s impeachment carries immense value: safeguarding democracy, documenting the historical record, deterring future abuses, and forcing political actors to clarify their values before both the nation and the world.