Justice Breyer, In His Own Words - Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts

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Podcast Summary: Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Episode: “Justice Breyer, In His Own Words”

Date: December 22, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Justice Stephen Breyer

Overview

This episode is part of Slate’s “80 Over 80” series and offers a candid, personal conversation between Dahlia Lithwick and Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer. Rather than focusing solely on judicial philosophy, the interview highlights Justice Breyer’s reflections on aging, cooperation, remote work during COVID-19, the value of humility, and life lessons acquired over eight decades. The tone is warm and insightful, with meaningful anecdotes and practical wisdom.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Lessons from Experience and Advice to Younger Generations

Breyer on Political Cooperation (01:11):
- Shares advice learned from Senator Ted Kennedy about the importance of incremental progress and eschewing personal glory.
- Quote: “The best is the enemy of the good. ...If you have a choice between, you know, achieving 20 or 30% of what you'd like on the one hand, or being the hero of all your friends on the other hand, choose the first. We're not here just to make speeches...” (Justice Breyer, 01:17)
- Emphasizes that giving credit to others and focusing on collaboration leads to trust and future agreements.
On Credit and Teamwork (02:00):
- Discusses the dangers of seeking credit, describing it as a “weapon,” and advises giving others the credit for successful outcomes.
- Quote: "Credit is a weapon. You give the other person the credit...that builds confidence and makes agreement easier the next time. So, hey, don't worry about it. If you succeed, there'll be plenty of credit to go around. And if you don't, who wants the credit?” (Justice Breyer, 02:23)

2. Reflections on Aging

Justice Breyer acknowledges that people often become more irritable as they age, but delivers this insight with a sense of humor and self-awareness.
- Quote: “Yes. But also as you get older, you get more irritable.” (Justice Breyer, 03:36)
- The exchange is light and relatable, as Dahlia admits that she, too, feels that way—prompting laughter and mutual understanding.

3. On Grief and Justice Ginsburg’s Passing

(03:52): Dahlia expresses condolences for Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's passing, recognizing the added difficulty during the pandemic. The conversation briefly acknowledges the personal and emotional toll of losing a close colleague.

4. Admitting and Learning from Mistakes

Breyer’s Self-Assessment (04:35):
- Openly discusses mistakes: being “terrible at investing” and, more importantly, the persistent error of “worrying about us,” or dwelling on past outcomes instead of moving forward.
- Quote: “Whatever happened, happened, and we move on from there. And it's a continuous mistake, too, and I know it is, and it's hard to stop yourself from doing it. But stop. I know that.” (Justice Breyer, 04:40)

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Choosing Collaboration Over Heroics:
- “If you have a choice between achieving 20 or 30% of what you'd like ... or being the hero of your friends ... choose the first. We're not here just to make speeches.” (Justice Breyer, 01:17)
On Giving Credit:
- “Credit is a weapon. ...That builds confidence and makes agreement easier the next time. So, hey, don't worry about it.” (Justice Breyer, 02:23)
On Aging and Irritability (Humorous Exchange):
- “As you get older, you get more irritable.” – Justice Breyer, 03:36
- “Not you, though.” – Dahlia Lithwick, 03:40
- “Oh, no. ...I'm telling you for the last time...” – Justice Breyer, 03:41
On Grief and Mistakes:
- “Whatever happened, happened, and we move on from there.” (Justice Breyer, 04:40)

Key Timestamps

01:11: Breyer begins to share advice drawn from Senator Kennedy on cooperation and incremental progress.
02:23: Memorable discussion about giving credit to others and the impact it has on building trust.
03:36–03:52: Lighthearted reflections on aging and irritable tendencies.
03:52: Acknowledgment of Justice Ginsburg’s passing and its impact during COVID-19.
04:35: Breyer discusses personal mistakes and the challenge of not dwelling on the past.

Conclusion

This episode provides a rare glimpse into Justice Stephen Breyer's wit, humility, and lifelong dedication to consensus and public service. Listeners come away with not just professional insights but also valuable life lessons: the importance of cooperation, humility, and moving forward—wisdom as relevant in law as it is to everyday life.

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Transcript9 lines

[00:04]
A
Hi, this is Dahlia Lithwick. And this past week I was lucky enough to have a chance to talk to Justice Stephen Breyer of the Supreme Court. It was part of Slate's 80 over 80 feature. And you can take a look at the whole package. It's amazing@slate.com 8080 from today on, the interview is not a profile of Justice Breyer's jurisprudence per se, but in keeping with the larger 80 over 80 over 80 theme. It's a really precious look at how life is going for one of, I think, the most important octogenarians in the land. How he's managing in Covid times, what remote work is like for him, the value of cooperation, the value of experience, and some of the dangers of seeking too much credit. It was an amazing kind of affirming conversation. Here's a little snippet. Are there things that you would tell your 30 year old self to do differently if you could go back or just tell your grandchildren?
[01:11]
B
What I say to them, What I say to them is what I think one of the one or two best things that I learned from Senator Kennedy and I really follow it. I try to, I try to, and he certainly tried to, is first of all, the best is the enemy of the good. He didn't make that up. But if you have a choice between, you know, achieving 20 or 30% of what you'd like on the one hand, or being the hero of all your friends on the other hand, choose the first. We're not here just to see, to make speeches, all right? And the second thing, which I think is really of great practical value is don't worry about credit. Credit is a weapon. You give the other person the credit. When you disagree with someone, we talk and talk politely and you go on. And eventually, and it happens almost always, they'll say something you agree with and then he would say, or you can say, let's work with that. And you work with it, and not always by any means, but sometimes you make some progress here and if it's positive and you get and say, okay, we all can sign on to that. And then in the Senate, you know, you announce this bill or that bill, or we got this passed and the press is there and hey, it's the other person, you push forward. How often I've seen him say something like, hey, you know, Senator Hatch was so helpful on this and he had a very good idea. And then we were able to come around to that. And then, and then you see, that builds confidence and makes agreement easier. The next time. So, hey, don't worry about it. If you succeed, there'll be plenty of credit to go around. And if you don't, who wants the credit?
[03:18]
A
And would you speculate that that's something we get better at as we get older? That maybe when you're younger, you want to gobble up credit and the limelight and make your speeches and die on the mountaintop? And that as you get older, maybe you know, this sort of repeat, repeat performances sometimes.
[03:37]
B
Yes. But also as you get older, you get more irritable.
[03:40]
A
Not you, though.
[03:42]
B
Oh, no. You say I get in here for dinner. I'm telling you for the last time, just why have you been ignoring. You know, you do get more irritable.
[03:52]
A
Oh, I'm all that. You're just doing me every day right now, so God knows where this is headed. I should have started with this, but I'm sorry for the loss of Justice Ginsburg. I know that must have been brutal for you, and I can't imagine how much harder in Covid. But I did want to say to you and your family that I'm sorry. I wonder if you would talk for a minute about mistakes you've made. If you have some that you can look back on from your vantage and say, wouldn't have done that again. Doesn't have to be grand, professional.
[04:36]
B
What I think of mistakes. I probably make two mistakes that I think. One is I'm terrible at investing. I'd say I've made a lot of mistakes. But worse than that, the mistake that I continually make, which is worse than that, is worrying about us, right? Hey, whatever happened, happened, and we move on from there. And it's a continuous mistake, too, and I know it is, and it's hard to stop yourself from doing it. But stop. I know that.
[05:13]
A
If you're not a Slate plus member, you can find out more and join us@slate.com AmicusPlus membership gives you access to ad free versions of all of Slate's network of podcasts, exclusive, exclusive bonus content from a whole lot of our shows, and you will never, ever hit a paywall@slate.com and perhaps most vitally, at least for our purposes, Slate + members support our journalism every day in these uncertain times. That support makes all the difference in the work that we can do. An example of that, go to slate.com amicus plus to check it out. I hope you enjoy and thank you.