Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Episode Summary

Episode Title: Let’s Start With Race
Date: August 3, 2019
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Main Guest: Michelle Goodwin, Chancellor’s Professor of Law, UC Irvine

Overview

This episode of Amicus delves into the deeply rooted issues of race and gender in American society and law, with a focus on how recent political events underscore longstanding societal "tumors" that have gone unaddressed. Dahlia Lithwick and her guest Michelle Goodwin explore how race, gender, and legal structures weave together, shaping the contours of justice and exclusion in America. The conversation surfaces the ways in which black and brown people—and specifically women—have been rendered both hyper-visible and invisible in public life, policy, and the law.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Race as America’s Unaddressed "Cancer"

(03:47–08:31)

• Goodwin likens America’s racial history to a tumor or a cancer, something for which the country has passed surface-level remedies (Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act) without addressing deeper pathologies:

  “We have softened the fight against recognizing it through civil rights legislation, which has been great... But those very important pieces of legislation really papered over something that we’ve never fully addressed and dealt with.” – Michelle Goodwin (03:47)

• Historical perspective on the Fugitive Slave Act and its Jim Crow legacy is discussed, emphasizing a lack of reckoning with the psychological and moral costs of slavery and segregation.
• The conversation notes the absence of public commemoration for abolitionists (contrasted with Confederate statues), and the enduring psychological denial and distortion around race.

2. Modern Political Rhetoric and Old Playbooks

(16:16–23:30)

• The hosts critique President Trump’s attacks on majority-black districts and politicians, noting the resurrection of dehumanizing rhetoric:

  “What stories must we tell ourselves today in order to justify the positions that we have, in order to justify privilege ... to keep the United States as it is, to keep privilege as it is...” – Michelle Goodwin (18:00)

• The “vermin” language and framing of black and brown neighborhoods as "infested" is connected directly to centuries-old tactics of devaluation for the purpose of social and political control.
• Goodwin places this in historical context with Ronald Reagan’s “welfare queen” narrative and the strategic use of Philadelphia, Mississippi as a campaign launching site.

3. Invisibility and Hyper-surveillance of Black and Brown Women

(23:30–30:21)

• Goodwin describes the unique status of black and brown women as both overlooked and overpoliced, especially in reproductive justice and criminal law:

  “When I began my law teaching career...I couldn’t help but notice...Black women who sought to carry their pregnancies to term being arrested because they had a miscarriage...” (24:48)

• She vividly recounts how criminalization and intervention in black women’s lives (e.g., policing of mothers for leaving children unattended) later becomes the precedent for broader curtailment of women’s rights:

  “Black women are the canaries in the coal mine. Once you begin permitting law enforcement to invade ... then everybody becomes vulnerable to it.” (00:00 / 28:45)

• The erasure of black women’s contributions to racial progress—and the use of their suffering as an early warning of coming threats to broader groups—are key themes.

4. Reproductive Rights as a Site of Racial and Gendered Control

(30:21–38:32)

• Lithwick and Goodwin connect the historical support for family planning among civil rights leaders like Dr. King to a current narrative that strips context from reproductive rights debates:

  “[Dr. King] speaks to the importance of family planning and how urgent it is...He puts this in human rights terms.” – Michelle Goodwin (30:56)

• Goodwin cites sobering health statistics:

  “A woman is 14 times more likely to die by carrying a pregnancy to term than by terminating her pregnancy.” (34:47)

• They note the shift from a claimed paternalism—“we just want women to make better choices”—to outright punishment, especially targeting women of color:

  “When the states actually turn on women and say, ‘No, actually, now Texas says we are going to punish you because you’re bad, not because we want you to make good choices, but because you’re bad’ ... that tiny pivot ... is not the case if you were a brown and black woman, because you were always being legislated as though you were bad.” – Dahlia Lithwick (37:40)

5. Disenchantment with the Constitution and the Law

(41:56–51:36)

• The conversation acknowledges a growing lack of faith in courts and the Constitution among people of color and women, with reference to recent cultural works by Heidi Schreck and Marianne Franks.
• Goodwin emphasizes that anger in black communities has often been channeled into activation rather than hatred:

  “There was fury. There just wasn’t venom... There was fury against [injustice], but not that kind of racial hatred.” (43:50)

• She stresses the need to reimagine and enforce the principles in the Constitution, and the importance of continued civic engagement and voting despite frustrations:

  “We need a new Bill of Rights. We need a new reproductive justice Bill of Rights.” (47:36)

• Goodwin expresses gratitude for the hope, perseverance, and selflessness of prior generations, and calls for renewed commitment and optimism.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On history and denial:

  “We’ve not repaid the legacy that we owe to the people who tried to make us a better nation... Instead, what’s the battle been? It’s been to maintain the statues of Confederate soldiers...”
  — Michelle Goodwin (07:13)

• On black women’s reality:

  “My daughter shouldn’t have to be afraid of police...my daughter’s first articulation about fear of the police to me...was when she was three years old.”
  — Michelle Goodwin (09:19)

• On reproductive rights history:

  “In 1966, Dr. King receives Planned Parenthood’s first Margaret Sanger Award...he says that this is essential...He puts this within human rights terms.”
  — Michelle Goodwin (30:56)

• On dangerous legislative shifts:

  “Between 2010 and 2013, there were more anti-abortion, anti-contraception laws that were proposed and enacted than in the 30 years prior combined.”
  — Michelle Goodwin (39:33)

• On hope and legacy:

  “It’s incumbent upon us to set the course for a better America. We owe that to our forebears...not just lifts you, but lifts those ignorant white people who are doing that [harm].”
  — Michelle Goodwin (48:46)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening Context, Race in 2020 Election: 00:40–03:47
• Systemic Racism as Cancer & American Denial: 03:47–08:31
• Childhood, Policing, Inherited Fear: 09:19–12:57
• Legacies, Forgotten Black Contributors: 12:58–16:15
• Rhetoric Around Black Districts, Political Calculation: 16:16–23:30
• Invisibility & Overcriminalization of Black Women: 23:30–30:21
• Reproductive Justice, Dr. King’s Legacy: 30:21–38:32
• Constitutional Disenchantment, Looking Forward: 41:56–52:00

Bonus Segment: The Constitution as Living Document

(Panel Discussion – 52:57–62:48)

Key moments from a panel with Heidi Schreck, Lawrence Tribe, and Dahlia Lithwick:

• Schreck on the Ninth Amendment:

  “This amendment seemed to provide a space to imagine the future...a portal, like opening up into this whole other world of rights that I didn’t know I had.” (53:17)

• Tribe:

  “There is no ‘Pope of the Constitution.’ There’s no authoritative top dog that tells us what it means...it’s something that we are part of bringing to life all the time.” (60:48)

• On Civic Engagement:

  “We are capable of shaping this document if we want to. We are capable of shaping this country if we want to.” — Heidi Schreck (60:39)

Conclusion

This episode powerfully stitches together history, law, and lived experience to interrogate the ways that race and gender shape American justice, politics, and belonging—past, present, and future. Listeners are left with a sense of both the gravity of these embedded injustices and the real potential for hope, activism, and constitutional renewal.