Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts

Episode Title: One Amendment Explains It All
Date: December 13, 2025
Guest: Sherrilyn Ifill, Founding Director, 14th Amendment Center for Law and Democracy at Howard University School of Law

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dahlia Lithwick is joined by civil rights lawyer and scholar Sherrilyn Ifill for a deep, urgent discussion about the centrality of the 14th Amendment in American democracy and the ongoing legal and political assaults on its legacy. The conversation examines the anti-democratic backlash against civil rights, the normalization of racist rhetoric, the shifting roles and dysfunctions of American institutions (especially the Supreme Court), and—crucially—the paths for everyday civic action. Both host and guest emphasize that while the hour is late, it is not too late for meaningful resistance, refounding, and hope.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The 14th Amendment as the Fulcrum of American Democracy

Timestamps: 07:08 – 12:05

• Central Thesis: The 14th Amendment is the “reset” of America post-Civil War, introducing equality, birthright citizenship, and the possibility of multiracial democracy.

  • “The 14th Amendment essentially is the reset of this country after the Civil War. It is where the concept of equality shows up for the first time in our Constitution.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (07:38)

• Historical Context: Its passage, following the Civil Rights Act of 1866, was a deliberate toehold against regression and presidential/congressional whims.

  • “That made it clear to them that this was not something they could leave to chance.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (08:30)

• Structural Resistance: The 14th Amendment was suppressed for a century and only realized through popular and legal resistance culminating in Brown v. Board of Education.

• Current Assaults: Attacks on voting rights, birthright citizenship, and even symbolic events (like ending free National Park admission on racial justice holidays) are all part of a coordinated effort to dismantle the 14th Amendment’s guarantees.

Framing the Backlash: The Civil Rights Movement as Democracy and Its Foes as Anti-Democratic

Timestamps: 12:05 – 16:08

• Anti-Democracy Movement: Resistance to civil rights is more than opposition to Black equality—it is fundamentally anti-democratic.

  • “The civil rights movement was not like, let's get things for black people. It is the beginning of true democracy in this country. And the resistance to it was an anti democracy movement.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (14:54)

• Misdiagnosis in American Discourse: Public narratives fail to correctly label the backlash as existentially anti-democratic, which weakens the popular response.

• Recurrent Themes: The tendency to try to “normalize” or “rationalize” what is happening stands in the way of urgent and honest reckonings with the scope of the crisis.

Uneven Reverence for Constitutional Amendments: First vs. 14th

Timestamps: 18:36 – 22:57

• First Amendment Absolutism vs. 14th Amendment Neglect:

  • Tech elites and others invoke “First Amendment rights” opportunistically, especially to defend inaction on hate speech and misinformation—but the 14th Amendment, foundational for actual democracy and equality, is ignored or minimized.
  • “We get to the 14th Amendment. And there's just kind of, you know, that's black people talking, or that some, you know, a civil rights leader said this or that as opposed to a frontal assault on our Constitution.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (21:57)

• The Great Cancellation:

  • The idea that denying or stripping citizenship from marginalized groups is the “greatest cancellation,” compared to the overblown panic about “cancel culture.”
  • “Is there any greater cancellation than, you know, someone trying to take your citizenship from you?”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (19:23)

Normalization, American Exceptionalism, and Supreme Court Entrenchment

Timestamps: 27:27 – 34:45

• Normalization Bias: Americans, especially elites and the media, remain attached to the belief that institutions like the Supreme Court will “save us” or guarantee a “return to normalcy.”

  • “I have no desire to return to 2010... if you've been doing the work that I've been doing, you're always invested in the future.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (30:40)
  • “What will interfere with the ability for us to do that reset is pretending that all we need to do is just make some incremental changes to get us back to 2010.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (31:28)

• Supreme Court’s Dangerous New Path:

  • The Court’s disregard for fact-finding by district courts and its increasing “choose-your-own-ending” jurisprudence signal an unchecked, unpredictable, and partisan judiciary.
  • “We have a Supreme Court that ... has the power to say what the law is ... but they've now decided that they have the power to say what the facts are.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (30:57)

The Importance of Truth-telling and Civic Action

Timestamps: 41:09 – 47:16

• Role of Those with Microphones:

  • Journalists, business leaders, and faith leaders must “ring the alarm bell” and stop minimizing or explaining away the alarming normalization of racist and anti-democratic behavior.
  • “My plea is to those in the best position to ... reach people and teach people.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (41:09)

• Refusing to Marginalize Race:

  • Talking openly about racism and the persistence of white supremacist ideology is crucial—it’s not “anti-intellectual” or “soft;” it’s dealing with reality.

“It is Late, but Not Too Late”: Civic Action and the Path Forward

Timestamps: 47:16 – 52:27

• Empowering Individuals:

  • Everyone can—and must—act. Running for office, monitoring local government during “lame duck” periods, voting (especially primaries), protesting, boycotting, and providing mutual aid are all critical.
  • “There are so many things to do. One of the things I said after the election... the flipping of seats and so forth was wonderful. So voting, sure. But here's the thing... primary elections are happening in just a few months.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (47:34)

• Rejecting the Silver Bullet:

  • Progress will be incremental, community-based, and cumulative—not a dramatic “deus ex machina.”
  • “They want this silver bullet, they want this deus ex machina to come in and solve the whole thing. And that's not going to happen. It's gonna be a million incremental things that we do in our own communities.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (50:30)

Redefining “Winning” in the Current Legal Landscape

Timestamps: 54:12 – 63:46

• Widening the Lens Beyond the Supreme Court:

  • District courts and other lower courts play essential roles, and their fact-finding and courage are themselves victories—even if the Supreme Court erases their decisions.
  • “I think one of the greatest things to have happened over the last few years is the strengthening and the muscularity of these district courts, because it matters.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (56:54)

• Visibility is Victory:

  • Exposing abuse, making facts public, and circulating evidence—whether through court decisions, journalism, or citizen documentation—is a civic win.
  • “Making things visible is part of our job. Making things visible in the face of lies and that courts do that every day. Lawyers do that every day. Good journalists do that every day.”
    — Dahlia Lithwick (64:26)

• Don’t Conflate Refusal to Accept Loss with Inability to Win:

  • Just because reactionaries deny losing does not mean progress can’t be made.
  • “We need to stop confusing the fact that they will not accept losing with the idea that we can't win, because those are two very different things and we can win.”
    — Dahlia Lithwick (63:46)

• Inclusivity is Non-Negotiable:

  • The project is not about shrinking the circle of citizenship and belonging; it’s about ever-widening inclusion.
  • “The assignment is not to carve out who gets to not matter so that America can be American again... that is not the assignment.”
    — Dahlia Lithwick (65:55)
  • “No, no, not if we want to be a democracy.”
    — Sherrilyn Ifill (66:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The 14th Amendment essentially is the reset of this country after the Civil War. It is where the concept of equality shows up for the first time in our Constitution... It is the beginning of the possibility of multiracial democracy in this country.”
  — Sherrilyn Ifill (07:38)

• “Is there any greater cancellation than, you know, someone trying to take your citizenship from you?”
  — Sherrilyn Ifill (19:23)

• “We are all founders and framers of the next iteration of American democracy, which is sit in the power seat. Don't see yourself as a bystander to what this democracy is going to be.”
  — Sherrilyn Ifill (47:25)

• “I am invested in the future... as this whole thing begins to unravel is the opportunity to create something new. And this is where the 14th amendment is so helpful for me, because it's one of the biggest moments of creating something new in this country.”
  — Sherrilyn Ifill (30:40)

• “Making things visible is part of our job. Making things visible in the face of lies... that is a piece of winning even in the face of being gaslit.”
  — Dahlia Lithwick (64:26)

Important Timestamps

• 07:08–12:05: The foundational significance of the 14th Amendment.
• 13:21–16:08: Civil rights movement redefined as foundational to democracy; anti-democracy origins of resistance.
• 19:13–22:57: Contrasts between societal reactions to First Amendment “panic” vs. 14th Amendment erosion.
• 27:27–34:45: Institutional “normalization,” the changing Supreme Court, and the dangers of complacency.
• 41:09–47:16: The need for truth-telling and proactive action from media, leaders, and citizens.
• 47:16–52:27: Practical actions for civic engagement in a time of democratic backsliding.
• 54:12–63:46: How to define and recognize “winning” in the legal and civic struggle today.
• 65:55–66:45: The imperative for radical inclusivity as the American project.

Tone and Closing Reflections

The tone throughout is urgent, candid, and energizing, balancing realistic concern with a call to active citizenship and faith in the power of collective struggle. Ifill’s insight is both bracing and nurturing—reminding listeners that no single institution or moment defines the project of democracy. Instead, persistent, cumulative, and inclusive action is required, and the lessons (and legacy) of the 14th Amendment are as essential as ever.

“It is late, but not too late.”
— Sherrilyn Ifill (Recapitulated throughout)

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