Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | "Pauli Murray: Lawyer, Poet, Priest, Trailblazer" (August 28, 2021)

Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guests: Betsy West & Julie Cohen (directors, "My Name is Pauli Murray")
Guest: Professor Patricia Bell-Scott (consulting producer, author, and professor emerita)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the extraordinary life and legacy of Pauli Murray—an overlooked but profoundly influential figure in 20th-century American legal, civil rights, and gender equality movements. In conversation with the directors of the documentary My Name is Pauli Murray and Professor Patricia Bell-Scott, the group explores Murray’s multidimensional identity as a lawyer, poet, priest, and activist, examining Murray's enduring impact on constitutional law, social justice, and movements for racial and gender equality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recognizing Pauli Murray’s Pioneering Legacy

• Murray's Underappreciated Role:
  Pauli Murray was a critical legal thinker whose work shaped the underpinnings of landmark civil rights and gender equality cases—including arguments that later surfaced in Brown v. Board of Education and Reed v. Reed (the latter credited publicly by Ruth Bader Ginsburg) ([02:00], [15:58], [17:40]).
• Ahead of Her Time:
  Murray was involved in civil disobedience (sit-ins, refusal to move to the back of the bus) years before these acts became known symbols of the civil rights movement ([01:54], [32:13]).

2. Pauli Murray’s Complex Identity

• Race, Gender, and Non-Binary Identity:
  Murray, of mixed-race ancestry and presenting publicly as female, privately expressed a gender identity more akin to what we would consider genderqueer or non-binary today, struggling with the lack of contemporary vocabulary and acceptance ([04:48], [05:09], [10:53]).
  • Quote: “Publicly…referred to herself as she. And it was only in Polly's diaries and letters that we learned about the struggle…” —Betsy West [10:53]
  • Documentary filmmakers and biographers debate which pronouns are most accurate, ultimately choosing to let speakers use what feels authentic, sometimes simply using “Pauli” ([12:31]).
• Intersectionality Embodied:
  Murray’s lived experience illustrated the overlapping oppressions of race, gender, class, and sexuality ([20:07]).

3. The "Why Was She Forgotten?" Discussion

• Barriers to Recognition:
  Multiple systemic and personal factors led to Murray’s erasure from mainstream history:
  • Societal dismissiveness of Black, female, and gender-nonconforming legal professionals
  • Murray’s own impatience with institutional inertia and tendency to move on before receiving credit
  • Her discomfort with institutional hierarchies and a preference for innovation over conformity ([20:07], [23:02]).
  • Quote: “There's a pattern of…male colleagues, lawyers, who would take her ideas and not bother to give her credit.” —Patricia Bell-Scott [20:07]

4. Pauli Murray as a Poet and Creative Force

• Creative Works as Core Identity:
  Despite her legal renown, Murray considered herself fundamentally a poet and writer. Her poetry deeply reflects her experience and identity, providing another window into her struggle and resilience ([27:06]).
  • The documentary ended up centering more poetry than planned, recognizing how it elevated the story ([28:29]).
  • Quote: “Given the choice of all of Pauli's many identities, writer was actually the most important.” —Julie Cohen [29:48]

5. Dissonance with Institutions

• Contrast with RBG and Institutionalism:
  Unlike Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who "lashed herself to institutions," Murray repeatedly found institutions too limiting, moving on in frustration when change was too slow. This tendency limited her mainstream success but preserved her independence ([14:26], [45:04]).
  • Quote: “I think the easy road was really not of much interest to Pauli Murray.” —Julie Cohen [45:04]
• Structural Barriers:
  Many opportunities open to later trailblazers (like Ginsburg) were foreclosed to Murray due to racism, sexism, and homophobia ([48:12]).
  • Quote: “The opportunities RBG had were not available to Paulie... She very much wanted to become a law professor. She did not have that opportunity.” —Patricia Bell-Scott [48:12]

6. Personal Pain, Restlessness, and Turn to Faith

• Intellectual and Emotional Struggle:
  Murray faced persistent inner turmoil—struggles with gender identity, being unheard by doctors and colleagues, and exclusion from ‘her own movements.’ Yet she remained unbreakable in the face of adversity ([50:00], [52:25]).
  • Quote: “I'm not sure I'm going along with brokenness, though, because Paulie was pretty unbreakable.” —Julie Cohen [53:18]
• Finding Healing in the Church:
  Murray’s late-life turn to the ministry (becoming one of the first Black female Episcopal priests) brought palpable peace and fulfillment previously elusive in law and activism ([46:43], [56:56]).
  • Quote: “...the missing element is theological.” —Patricia Bell-Scott [53:18]
  • Memorable Visual: The rediscovered interview footage of Murray in her priest’s collar, “...Polly's smile. It was just a beautiful…welcoming, fantastic smile.” —Betsy West [56:56]

7. Defining Lasting Contributions

• Doctrine of Dignity and Equality:
  Murray’s constitutional vision—anchored in the 13th and 14th Amendments—centered “dignity” long before it became mainstream in Supreme Court reasoning ([00:03], [39:45]).
  • Quote: “Many of the signature rulings…go all the way back to Pauli's notion of human dignity and human equality and authentic selfhood.” —Patricia Bell-Scott [00:03, 39:45]
• Foundational Work for Gender Equality:
  Murray’s strategic legal contributions were instrumental in adding “sex” to Title VII, shaping anti-discrimination law ([39:45]).

Selected Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Selfhood and Intersectionality
  "She is someone who really takes a very expansive view of the human experience. So that she sees herself as both male and female. Beyond those boundaries…" —Patricia Bell-Scott [05:09]

• On Not Getting Credit "There's a pattern of particularly male colleagues, lawyers, who would take her ideas and not bother to give her credit...Who writes the minutes really shapes the perception of what actually happened." —Patricia Bell-Scott [20:07]

• On Law Versus Truth "Lawyers are focused primarily on the facts. And writers or poets…were focused on the truth." —Patricia Bell-Scott [35:34]

• On Being Ahead of the Curve "Pauli liked being way ahead of the curve and was willing to do that, maybe at the expense of becoming a central figure in a movement that Pauli stuck with..." —Julie Cohen [45:04]

• On Resilience "I'm not sure I'm going along with brokenness, though, because Paulie was pretty unbreakable.” —Julie Cohen [53:18]

• On Healing through Faith "The decision to move into the ministry was evidence of her healing and her desire to be...a listener in support of the healing of others..." —Patricia Bell-Scott [56:56]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pauli as Legal Architect; Forgotten Foundational Work: [01:38]–[02:22], [15:58]–[17:40]
• Murray’s Non-Binary Identity & Pronouns: [04:48]–[14:20]
• Why Pauli Was Forgotten/Erased: [19:25]–[27:06]
• Role & Richness of Murray’s Poetry: [27:06]–[31:30]
• Civil Disobedience and Being Erased: [31:30]–[35:34]
• Doctrine of Dignity / Influence on Modern Law: [39:45]
• Trouble with Institutions vs. RBG’s Path: [45:04]–[50:00]
• Turn to Faith and Priesthood: [46:43], [53:18]–[58:18]
• Culminating Reflections and Legacy: [58:18]–[59:32]

Summary Table of Core Themes

| Theme | Example/Quote | Timestamp | |-----------------------|------------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Legal trailblazing | “A law school paper that Murray wrote on Plessy vs Ferguson…became part of…Brown v. Board…” | [02:00] | | Non-binary identity | “We learned about the struggle that Polly had to get doctors to recognize Polly's feeling…” | [10:53] | | Erasure from history | “There’s a pattern…of male colleagues…would take her ideas and not bother to give her credit.” | [20:07] | | Poetry & art central | “Writer was actually the most important [identity].” | [29:48] | | Institutional limits | “The easy road was really not of much interest to Pauli Murray.” | [45:04] | | Doctrine of dignity | “Many of the signature rulings...go all the way back to Pauli's notion of human dignity...” | [39:45] | | Healing in faith | “…the missing element is theological.” | [53:18] |

Conclusion

The episode presents a rich exploration of Pauli Murray’s unparalleled yet under-recognized contributions to American law, civil rights, literature, and spirituality. Through discussion with documentary filmmakers and scholars, it becomes clear that Murray’s legacy is not only foundational but also increasingly relevant. Murray’s struggle to be visible, recognized, and whole—across overlapping margins of identity and justice—resonates urgently today. The episode closes with gratitude for the belated but vital recovery of Murray’s story and a sense that Murray's time in the public consciousness is only just beginning.

Recommended viewing/readings from the episode:

• Documentary: My Name is Pauli Murray
• Book: The Firebrand and the First by Patricia Bell-Scott